Brexit and General UK politics thread

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EnterpriseSovereign
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Zaune wrote: 2019-01-22 02:07pm
K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-01-22 01:25pmI did not say you are a closet authoritarian. I actually respect you as a well-meaning individual.

What I meant is that unless you can change the minds of the population, an attempt to overrule the results as illegitimate would be seen as an authoritarian act.

The problem is not in the legitimacy as such, but - by now - in the perceptions.
Considering the likely consequences if we don't overrule the results, I would honestly consider that an acceptable trade-off. The credibility of British democracy will be in the toilet anyway at the rate we're going; contemplating what to do when my insulin runs out or my neighbours get hungry enough to turn on each other certainly hasn't done anything to improve my respect for it.
Certainly May and the Brexit Bunch have repeatedly claimed that if we don't leave it will undermine faith in democracy, which might hold water if it wasn't rock-bottom anyway. The Brexit Bunch would happily destroy the economy in the name of democracy- whenever I visit the FB posts from the news covering Brexit I see the same comments over and over. Next one I see I'll answer with, "Why do you hate the economy?". :lol:
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by mr friendly guy »

Zaune wrote: 2019-01-22 02:07pm
K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-01-22 01:25pmI did not say you are a closet authoritarian. I actually respect you as a well-meaning individual.

What I meant is that unless you can change the minds of the population, an attempt to overrule the results as illegitimate would be seen as an authoritarian act.

The problem is not in the legitimacy as such, but - by now - in the perceptions.
Considering the likely consequences if we don't overrule the results, I would honestly consider that an acceptable trade-off. The credibility of British democracy will be in the toilet anyway at the rate we're going; contemplating what to do when my insulin runs out or my neighbours get hungry enough to turn on each other certainly hasn't done anything to improve my respect for it.
Is there anyway you can stock up on insulin prior to Brexit or get it across the channel from France? Last desperate resort, do you have relatives in Australia? We have reciprocal care with the UK and AFAIK a doctor prescribing insulin will let you pay it at subsidised prices, although you better check that out.

Stay safe mate.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by madd0ct0r »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2019-01-22 08:54pm
Zaune wrote: 2019-01-22 02:07pm
K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-01-22 01:25pmI did not say you are a closet authoritarian. I actually respect you as a well-meaning individual.

What I meant is that unless you can change the minds of the population, an attempt to overrule the results as illegitimate would be seen as an authoritarian act.

The problem is not in the legitimacy as such, but - by now - in the perceptions.
Considering the likely consequences if we don't overrule the results, I would honestly consider that an acceptable trade-off. The credibility of British democracy will be in the toilet anyway at the rate we're going; contemplating what to do when my insulin runs out or my neighbours get hungry enough to turn on each other certainly hasn't done anything to improve my respect for it.
Certainly May and the Brexit Bunch have repeatedly claimed that if we don't leave it will undermine faith in democracy, which might hold water if it wasn't rock-bottom anyway. The Brexit Bunch would happily destroy the economy in the name of democracy- whenever I visit the FB posts from the news covering Brexit I see the same comments over and over. Next one I see I'll answer with, "Why do you hate the economy?". :lol:

answer: "the economy does nothing for me. Why should I care if a bunch of rich people don't get richer? I'm competing for shit jobs"
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Zaune »

mr friendly guy wrote: 2019-01-23 07:31amIs there anyway you can stock up on insulin prior to Brexit or get it across the channel from France? Last desperate resort, do you have relatives in Australia? We have reciprocal care with the UK and AFAIK a doctor prescribing insulin will let you pay it at subsidised prices, although you better check that out.
No to both, unfortunately. I can't just buy the stuff for cash without a prescription, and getting my prescription renewed before I've used up what I already have would require me to persuade my GP to bend the rules for me. Besides, the stuff doesn't keep for very long.

Fortunately, my GP has yet to talk me into having anything to do with antidepressants, so I'm not honestly all that bothered at this point.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Juubi Karakuchi »

A situation update.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ay-experts
UK cannot simply trade on WTO terms after no-deal Brexit, say experts

UK may face seven-year wait for frictionless trade under WTO rules if it crashes out of EU


Amelia Hill

Sun 27 Jan 2019 17.31 GMT
Last modified on Sun 27 Jan 2019 18.50 GMT

The UK will be unable to have frictionless, tariff-free trade under World Trade Organization rules for up to seven years in the event of a no-deal Brexit, according to two leading European Union law specialists.

The ensuing chaos could double food prices and plunge Britain into a recession that could last up to 30 years, claim the lawyers who acted for Gina Miller in the historic case that forced the government to seek parliament’s approval to leave the EU.

It has been claimed that the UK could simply move to WTO terms if there is no deal with the EU. But Anneli Howard, a specialist in EU and competition law at Monckton Chambers and a member of the bar’s Brexit working group, believes this isn’t true.

“No deal means leaving with nothing,” she said. “The anticipated recession will be worse than the 1930s, let alone 2008. It is impossible to say how long it would go on for. Some economists say 10 years, others say the effects could be felt for 20 or even 30 years: even ardent Brexiters agree it could be decades.”

The government’s own statistics have estimated that under the worst case no-deal scenario, GDP would be 10.7% lower than if the UK stays in the EU, in 15 years.

There are two apparently insurmountable hurdles to the UK trading on current WTO tariffs in the event of Britain crashing out in March, said Howard.

Firstly, the UK must produce its own schedule covering both services and each of the 5,000-plus product lines covered in the WTO agreement and get it agreed by all the 163 WTO states in the 32 remaining parliamentary sitting days until 29 March 2019. A number of states have already raised objections to the UK’s draft schedule: 20 over goods and three over services.

To make it more complicated, there are no “default terms” Britain can crash out on, Howard said, while at the same time, the UK has been blocked by WTO members from simply relying on the EU’s “schedule” – its existing tariffs and tariff-free trade quotas.

The second hurdle is the sheer volume of domestic legislation that would need to be passed before being able to trade under WTO rules: there are nine statutes and 600 statutory instruments that would need to be adopted.

The government cannot simply cut and paste the 120,000 EU statutes into UK law and then make changes to them gradually, Howard said. “The UK will need to set up new enforcement bodies and transfer new powers to regulators to create our own domestic regimes,” she said.

“Basic maths shows that we will run out of time but any gap in our system will create uncertainty or conflict,” said Howard. “Some of these regimes carry penalties such as fines – even criminal offences in some sectors.”

Unless there is an extension to article 50, both these hurdles will need to be crossed by 29 March. This, said Howard, was an impossible task. “Negotiating and ratifying the international free trade deals with the rest of the world alone could take over seven years,” she said.

“A no-deal Brexit could double prices for some products like meat and dairy. There is also a greater risk of trade disputes and sanctions, resulting in reduced market access for UK businesses.

“It’s not just about money,” she said. “We are dependent on imports for a lot of things that we don’t make any more or don’t make enough of, or simply cannot make as they are patented or subject to rules of origin – like lifesaving drugs, radioactive isotopes for MRI scans, medical equipment, chemicals, electricity, petrol, even milk. Shortages and delays could cause panic buying or even civil unrest.”

Rhodri Thompson QC, a specialist in competition and EU law at Matrix Chambers, agreed. He said: “The truth is that this would be extremely difficult and would not cover much of the UK economy at all.”

Howard dismissed ideas of a transition period enabling a “gradual transition” to WTO rules as “unicorns”. “The UK will have to start negotiating over 50 free trade agreements from scratch once we leave the EU. In the meantime we will have to pay tariffs.”

Economists for Free Trade, a group with links to Jacob Rees-Mogg and David Davis, claims there is “nothing to fear” from leaving the EU without reaching an agreement.

David Collins, a professor of international economic law at City University of London, said: “The UK can trade quite easily on an uncertified schedule.”

However, Collins conceded that an uncertified schedule “might be an indication of that complaining member’s intention to initiate a dispute against the member,” and that “the WTO dispute settlement process can take several years to resolve”.
To boil it down a bit, the UK is looking at the following effects from a No-Deal Brexit, according to the above article;

- No frictionless trade for up to 7 years
- Double food prices
- Up to 30 years of recession
- 10.7% reduction in GDP over 15 years
- Potential panic-buying and possibly civil unrest

Unfortunately I don't know enough about economics to be able to put this into perspective; except maybe by comparison to historical examples. But none of it sounds good.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

At this point, the Queen HAS TO come in and cancel Brexit if the economic consequences are THAT bad.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-01-27 07:41pm At this point, the Queen HAS TO come in and cancel Brexit if the economic consequences are THAT bad.
No, she doesn't. That isn't going to happen under any circumstances.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2019-01-28 03:10amNo, she doesn't. That isn't going to happen under any circumstances.
Not if not doing so means economic ruin and for all intents and purposes civil war. The British elected government was never born from 'the people', it is allowed by the House of Windsor. The EU has everything riding on a no-negotiation, no hold bared, Hard Brexit because otherwise it might get other nations to do exits of their own.

Sometimes the masses make the wrong choice, and someone has to occasionally stop them from making that choice. Since the elected government isn't willing to do anything about it, the Queen has to step in or face her nation -something that her family has spent centuries building- falling into ruin.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

She literally doesn't have the power to do anything, mate. The exit is already in law, so she can't refuse assent.

She can't even dissolve parliament and force an election, the power to do that was taken away in the Fixed Term elections act.

What do you expected her to do?
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2019-01-28 08:50am She literally doesn't have the power to do anything, mate. The exit is already in law, so she can't refuse assent.

She can't even dissolve parliament and force an election, the power to do that was taken away in the Fixed Term elections act.

What do you expected her to do?
At this point, pull a coup if Parliament has taken so much power from her.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by mr friendly guy »

GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-01-28 09:08am
Crazedwraith wrote: 2019-01-28 08:50am She literally doesn't have the power to do anything, mate. The exit is already in law, so she can't refuse assent.

She can't even dissolve parliament and force an election, the power to do that was taken away in the Fixed Term elections act.

What do you expected her to do?
At this point, pull a coup if Parliament has taken so much power from her.
Forgive my ignorance, isn't the current royal family there because in the past, British parliament appointed them because they wanted a royal family after parliament defeated the previous royal family. Thus proving the dominance of parliament over the monarchy.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

mr friendly guy wrote: 2019-01-28 10:44am Forgive my ignorance, isn't the current royal family there because in the past, British parliament appointed them because they wanted a royal family after parliament defeated the previous royal family. Thus proving the dominance of parliament over the monarchy.
From what I can understand, the current royal family is a branch of the previous royal family. Also, that royal family had counters to parliament if it got too uppity or stupid just like parliament had counters to the crown if the crown got too stupid.

However, the crown's counters to parliament have been closed off in the name of democracy, which is stupid as those counters are for situations like this.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Juubi Karakuchi »

GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-01-28 10:50am From what I can understand, the current royal family is a branch of the previous royal family. Also, that royal family had counters to parliament if it got too uppity or stupid just like parliament had counters to the crown if the crown got too stupid.

However, the crown's counters to parliament have been closed off in the name of democracy, which is stupid as those counters are for situations like this.
If the Crown were indeed to get involved to that extent, it would effectively represent an overturning of a political consensus that has existed since the 19th century; if not the entire post-Cromwell consensus. The system is stiched up too tight for anything else.

That's not to say it would be wrong to do so. But the stakes are frighteningly high, in an already dangerous situation. That's one of the main reasons why it probably won't happen; it's just too scary and too big a psychological leap, both for those expected to do it and those who have to accept or reject it. That's what this whole situation has come to.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

If we throw out democracy to thwart the Neo-fascists, then they have won regardless. Nonetheless, there are exceptional circumstances where a government betrays its nation so badly that extraordinary means are necessary to hold it to account. And it is possible that Royal Intervention (however unlikely it may be) would be a lesser evil than waiting until Britain implodes and falls into mass civil unrest due to a Hard Brexit.

But realistically, both scenarios probably lead to economic chaos and mass civil unrest, at best.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

To take a brief break from the Brexit bullshit:

Former SNP leader and Scottish first minister Alex Salmond arrested for attempted rape and sexual assault.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-46984747

Excerpt:
Former Scottish first minister Alex Salmond has appeared in court charged with attempted rape and sexual assault.

He faced a total of 14 charges at Edinburgh Sheriff Court, also including breach of the peace and indecent assault.

The 64-year-old made no plea during the hearing and was released on bail.

Outside court, Mr Salmond said he was "innocent of any criminality" and added that he would defend himself "to the utmost".

Police had been investigating following a Scottish government inquiry into complaints of sexual harassment against Mr Salmond.
Side note: Apparently he's also been working as a talk show host for RT (aka Putin's mouthpiece) since leaving office, though if the allegations against him are true, being a neo-fascist lickspittle is pretty much just running up the douchebag score at this point.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

And now back to your irregularly scheduled Brexit Bullshit:

OFC Europe doesn't want the change the backstop
The EU's chief negotiator Michel Barnier says the Irish backstop is "part and parcel" of the UK's Brexit deal and will not be renegotiated.

Speaking at the European Parliament, Mr Barnier said it was a "realistic solution" to preventing a hard border.

British MPs voted earlier this month against the deal agreed by the UK and EU during 18 months of negotiations.

Instead, on Tuesday, they voted for PM Theresa May to seek "alternative arrangements" to the backstop.

The UK is due to leave the European Union at 23:00 GMT on 29 March. The backstop is an "insurance" policy to stop the return of checks on goods and people along the Northern Ireland border.

As it stands, the backstop would effectively keep the UK inside the EU's customs union, but with Northern Ireland also conforming to some rules of the single market.

It was one of the main reasons Mrs May's Brexit deal was voted down in Parliament by an historic margin earlier in January as critics say a different status for Northern Ireland could threaten the existence of the UK and fear that the backstop could become permanent.

Mrs May has said there are several possible alternatives to the backstop that she wanted to discuss with EU leaders.

These include a "trusted trader" scheme to avoid physical checks on goods flowing through the border, "mutual recognition" of rules with the EU and "technological" solutions.

She also wants to discuss a time limit on the backstop and a "unilateral exit" mechanism - both options ruled out by the EU in the past.

But the message from the EU was the backstop remained an integral part of the withdrawal agreement - the so-called "divorce deal" agreeing the terms of the UK's exit from the EU.

Mr Barnier said: "Calmly and clearly, I will say right here and now - with this withdrawal agreement proposed for ratification - we need this backstop as it is.

"Rejecting the backstop as it stands today boils down to rejecting the solution which has been found with the British, but the problem remains."

Ireland's deputy prime minister earlier gave a warning over Mrs May's future plans for the backstop, saying that anyone who allowed the "borders and divisions of the past" to return would be "judged harshly in history".

Simon Coveney added: "There are some things that are more important than economic relationships and this is one of them."

'Very Cordial'
At the same time as the European Parliament was discussing Brexit, Mrs May and Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn were holding their long-awaited meeting on the issue, following an earlier clash at Prime Minister's Questions.

In the Commons Mr Corbyn repeatedly urged Mrs May to rule out a no-deal Brexit after a majority of MPs voted against the prospect in another vote on Tuesday.

But Mrs May said: "You cannot just vote to reject no deal, you have to support a deal."

Their later meeting, away from the cameras, was "very cordial", according to a Labour spokesperson.

"There was a useful exchange of views. We made the case for our plan. There was a detailed exchange of views on a customs union and single market relationship."

The pair agreed to meet again soon, the spokesperson added.

The European Parliament's Brexit coordinator, Guy Verhofstadt, echoed his colleagues by criticising the UK for not being clear about what they wanted from the deal.

He said the two years had been "exhausting" on both sides of the Channel, and called for Mrs May and Mr Corbyn to work together - "not only eating biscuits and drinking tea" - to come to a cross-party solution and to stop "using and abusing Brexit to get rid of each other".

Mr Juncker said the votes in the Commons on Tuesday increased the risk of a "disorderly" Brexit, but he still believed there could be a deal done between the EU and UK, adding: "We will work day and night to make it happen, and to ensure we are ready in case it does not.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-01-29 08:00pm If we throw out democracy to thwart the Neo-fascists, then they have won regardless. Nonetheless, there are exceptional circumstances where a government betrays its nation so badly that extraordinary means are necessary to hold it to account. And it is possible that Royal Intervention (however unlikely it may be) would be a lesser evil than waiting until Britain implodes and falls into mass civil unrest due to a Hard Brexit.

But realistically, both scenarios probably lead to economic chaos and mass civil unrest, at best.
From what I've hard, the Queen is at the height of her popularity and Parliament has been at it's lowest in at least two centuries. If the House of Windsor pulled a Royal Intervention, then you'll likely see most people cheering in the streets and backing the royals instead of their elected officials.

Given that the Brexit-iers are under MI-5 (I think it's MI-5, there are so many internal and external intelligence agencies that it can be hard to keep track) investigation right now in a similar way Trump is with the Trump-Russia investigation by Mueller...
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

That's ridiculous and no way true that anyone would back the Queen over the government. Please provided a better source than 'From what I've hard' [sic]

Again, what you two don't seem to be getting is there is still a large proportion of people who are Pro-Brexit, even pro no-deal. Nothing that thwarts Brexit is going to be popular with around half the country.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by K. A. Pital »

Advocating absolute monarchy to stop Britain from leaving the EU? This is ridiculous, not to mention dictatorial in the extreme.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Iroscato »

K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-01-30 01:01pm Advocating absolute monarchy to stop Britain from leaving the EU? This is ridiculous, not to mention dictatorial in the extreme.
I'm deep in the Remain camp but I completely agree. Grosse, your grasp of the UK's political landscape sounds like it was read to you off the back of an envelope by a particularly intoxicated street bum. The Queen isn't going to do a goddamn thing and your assertions that she should/will are laughable to the people who actually live here.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by SolarpunkFan »

How much should I worry about my friends in the UK regarding Brexit?

It seems uncomfortably too likely that no deal is going to happen and I can't bear the thought of some of the most wonderful people I've ever met starving/freezing/etc. to death in a refugee camp. :(
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

SolarpunkFan wrote: 2019-01-30 02:03pm How much should I worry about my friends in the UK regarding Brexit?

It seems uncomfortably too likely that no deal is going to happen and I can't bear the thought of some of the most wonderful people I've ever met starving/freezing/etc. to death in a refugee camp. :(
Well I shouldn't worry at all if you can help it. Not that nothing bad is going to happen, just there's nothing much for you to do about it.

Neither side wants No-deal, ostensibly, aside from some hardcore Brexiteers. So at the moment the analysis is that it's a giant game of chicken how badly we want to shoot ourselves in the head. Hopefully oneside or the other with blink with enough time left to actually do something.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by bilateralrope »

GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-01-30 12:21pm From what I've hard, the Queen is at the height of her popularity and Parliament has been at it's lowest in at least two centuries. If the House of Windsor pulled a Royal Intervention, then you'll likely see most people cheering in the streets and backing the royals instead of their elected officials.

Given that the Brexit-iers are under MI-5 (I think it's MI-5, there are so many internal and external intelligence agencies that it can be hard to keep track) investigation right now in a similar way Trump is with the Trump-Russia investigation by Mueller...
Sounds like the best thing for the Queen to do is lay out all the reasons why Brexit looks like a bad idea, all the people who funded the pro-Brexit campaign who have since moved out of the UK, then ask for a second referendum now that everyone has a clearer idea of what Brexit will look like.

It might not get parliament to call a second referendum. But it's better than her undermining democracy.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Solauren »

bilateralrope wrote: 2019-01-30 09:46pm Sounds like the best thing for the Queen to do is lay out all the reasons why Brexit looks like a bad idea, all the people who funded the pro-Brexit campaign who have since moved out of the UK, then ask for a second referendum now that everyone has a clearer idea of what Brexit will look like.
More and More, the Brexit campaign looks like an attempt to fuck over Great Britain by people that were planning to leave anyway.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by madd0ct0r »

All the queen is going to do is to quietly read the riot act to her mps and tell them to get their shit together. Thats her role, thats her job.

There will be no (new) refugee camps. There will be no wholesale destruction. The damage will be slow and felt for decades as the economy winds down and inequality continues to press. More like mining areas in post industrial uk then mad max.

Atrocious and stupid and predicated, but not fast moving.
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
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