Building a Mosque near Ground Zero.

[Lagmonster]

Please don't ban him; I'm going to have too much fun with him. Let's keep the moron around awhile.

Yes I can see this is a left wing site, there are so many of you around here, so I'll probably be banned eventually for disagreeing with your world view.

Nobody will ban you for having a different point of view; we do in fact have people on the political right on this board, although they do obviously remain in the minority. If you do not wish to argue your points of view, that is your privilege - to come or go as you please.

What will end in a ban is clearly printed in the rules, and posting rules 7, 8, and 9 more or less detail what constitutes unacceptable content (largely relating to overt racism, pornography, and such, as well as our own board-consensus moratorium subjects). I'm mentioning this so that you do not get the impression that the staff, meaning me among others, will ban you merely for being conservative.

I would suggest that you consider that on this board, we require that all arguments be supported with evidence; even the simplest things cannot be described as self-evident. This may mean extra work for you, but that is the nature of this beast. Also again remember that this board is physically located in Canada, which means that we are required to police threads for violations of Canada's Hate Speech Act.

I will also take this opportunity to remind our members that we have a NO PILE ON rule specifically to avoid the problem of chasing off people with opposing points of view by sheer weight and volume; while I understand that there are a lot of people eager to participate in this thread, Tom is only one guy and burying him in replies is a waste of time.

I'll remind you all that we have the Colisseum for this kind of thing. If Tom is willing and anyone else able, the staff will be happy to arrange for such an engagement.

[Dalton]

I thank Lagmonster for his restraint and his candor. That was a model post.

I would like to reiterate that when I ban Mr. Kalbfus, it's not because he's a conservative on a "left wing site". Even though the owner of the board is an avowed liberal, there are plenty of other conservatives here who actually follow the rules and make thoughtful contributions. Tom Kalbfus does not fit that description, as he will merrily throw around bigoted terms like "Kraut" in response to more generic insults like "shithead", "asshat", "worthless hatfucker" and "backwards, crusty, bigoted piece of dinosaur shit who wouldn't know how to back up a claim even if he had a copy of 'Debating for Complete Fucking Idiots'". As Mike himself said in Axis Kast's Parting Shots thread...

In any case, right-wing persecution syndrome has become a full-blown pathology, where their first instinct is always to cry "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!", but the fact remains that if you actually observe the rules, we don't care whether you lean right or left. Kast was given free reign for seven years, never getting kicked out until he finally started telling the staff to go fuck themselves over the mere act of moving a thread from one forum to another, and yet he still had the gall to accuse us of keeping right-wing voices out. Oh no, if you're a right-winger you better not sign up on stardestroyer.net, they'll only give you seven years!

It's a wonder I haven't banned you yet, Tom. Maybe I'm getting soft. Maybe I'm just too lazy. But you have dug your grave, and your days here are numbered.

[General Mung Beans]

For Pete's sake Tom please don't repeat your performance in "When Will Republicans Return to the White House" thread over at AHDB.

[Thanas]

What is AHDB?

[General Mung Beans]

What is AHDB?

Alternate History Discussion Board. http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/

[Thanas]

I should have known from the "quality" of his posts.

[The Wookiee]

I have decided to grant Mr. Kalbfus a title more befitting of his personality.

[bobalot]

It appears he has run away from this board while probably crying about discrimination.

BTW, his asshattery is documented at AHDB's wiki.

[Lagmonster]

Bear in mind that this thread is about the Mosque at Ground Zero, not about Tom. Let's not change the thread topic into a discussion of the guy since he's not likely to step back into the ring for another beating.

[JCady]

I suspect that a lot of you would be pissed as holy hell if it was a Catholic Church built at the site of a bombed abortion clinic.

Just like people were up in arms and demanding action over a radical anti-abortion group with a history of promoting violence took over Dr. Tiller's clinic after he was murdered. . . oh wait, that didn't happen.

[Kodiak]

I found it interesting that I'm reading about this in the UK Guardian

Ground Zero mosque plans 'fuelling anti-Muslim protests across US'


The battle over plans to build a mosque near the site of the 9/11 terrorist attacks in New York is fuelling a surge in anti-Muslim protests across the US, including opposition to new Islamic centres from California to Georgia.

Religious leaders and civil rights activists warn that a tide of Islamophobia that has swept the country since the destruction of the twin towers is being heightened by political exploitation of the New York dispute before nationwide elections and is increasingly bound up with hostility to immigrants and other forms of racism.

They say the outpouring of condemnation at the "outrage" of a mosque close to the "hallowed ground" of the World Trade Centre site also goes hand in hand with the increasing acceptability of what they describe as hate speech.

A Florida church, Dove World Outreach Centre, is planning a "burn the Qur'an" day on September 11 and has already outraged Muslims by planting a sign on its front lawn that reads: Islam is the Devil.

The church's senior pastor, Terry Jones, has said he is "exposing Islam for what it is".

"It is a violent and oppressive religion that is trying to masquerade itself as a religion of peace, seeking to deceive our society," the church said. "Islam is a lie based upon lies and deceptions and fear. In Muslim countries, if you preach the gospel or convert to Christianity – you will be killed. That is the type of religion it is."

A leading Muslim educational institution, al-Azhar's Supreme Council in Egypt, has accused the Florida church of "stirring up hate and discrimination" and called on other American churches to condemn it.

Many religious leaders have spoken out against Muslim-bashing, including rabbis in New York who have defended the plans for the mosque two blocks from the site of the 9/11 attacks, which would not be visible from Ground Zero.

But John Esposito, director of the Centre for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University, said many Americans shared Jones's views. He said the dispute over the proposed mosque had given cover for more open hostility unleashed after the 9/11 attacks that was evident during the last presidential election when some of Barack Obama's opponents attempted to portray him as a Muslim.

"The World Trade Centre thing has shown that what has been up to now seen as a local issue has gone global and provided an umbrella so that suddenly people feel freer to go public with their objections to Muslims," he said.

"Historically we've had problems in Mississippi or Georgia or New York or wherever when someone wants to establish a mosque.

"The cover for opposition used to be that people will say: we're not really prejudiced but it'll affect the traffic in the area, not facing the fact that it is very common if you have a significant number of Jews or Protestants or Catholics to expect that they're going to want to have a synagogue or a church and chances are the town's going to go along with it."

But today, Americans increasingly no longer shy away from saying they oppose mosques on the grounds that Muslims are a threat or different.

In New York, a group called the American Freedom Defence Initiative is placing adverts on New York buses showing a plane flying into one of the World Trade Centre towers and what it calls a "Mega Mosque" and asking "Why There?".

Azeem Khan, of the Islamic Circle of North America, said the bus adverts promoted fear and hatred. "People want Islam and Muslims to be the boogieman right now," he said.

The issue is increasingly being exploited by politicians in the run-up to November's mid-term elections. Opposition to a mosque in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, intensified after Republican candidates for Congress and state governor made opposition part of their campaigns.

Sarah Palin, the former vice presidential candidate, has been a vocal opponent of the controversial New York mosque.

Other prominent politicians have cast the net wider. Newt Gingrich, the Republican former speaker of the House of Representatives, who is thought likely to make a run for president, has warned that Muslims are attempting to impose sharia law in the US and that it poses a "mortal threat to freedom" in America.

Gingrich said that he would push for legislation to prevent states from adopting sharia law even though none are proposing it and there is no likely prospect of it happening.

Esposito said politicians' fearmongering over Muslims was similar to exploitation of fears that the country was being swamped by a tide of illegal immigrants.

"Islamophobia is not just about religion. It's about people who are of colour and a whole set of presuppositions about these people," he said.

"You can see it not only with Muslims but with Mexicans, people who look Hispanic. Now we have hard data from Gallup and Pew that demonstrate in America how integrated the vast majority of Muslims are – economically, politically and religiously. And yet a significant number of Americans can be appealed to in what is nothing less than hate speech, the same hate speech directed against immigrants."

It's disheartening to see the face that the US is putting on for the rest of the world these days.

[Kanastrous]

Since Muslims - like Jews and Christian - come in pretty much every color available, the idea that Islamophobia is interchangeable with racism is kind of strange. There's plenty to dislike and mistrust about Islam itself - like any faith - without need to conjure up racist bogeymen.

[Axiomatic]

What I find most interesting is that Californians and Georgians find the thought of a mosque in New York far more objectionable than, you know, New Yorkers.

[Guardsman Bass]

Since Muslims - like Jews and Christian - come in pretty much every color available, the idea that Islamophobia is interchangeable with racism is kind of strange. There's plenty to dislike and mistrust about Islam itself - like any faith - without need to conjure up racist bogeymen.

It's coming from the same sort of xenophobic root, and while it's true that muslims do not look all the same, the public perception is usually that muslim = Arab.

[Kanastrous]

Which is funny when you consider that Arabs represent a minority of Muslims. Even if they did set the whole sorry ball rolling.

[Civil War Man]

Since Muslims - like Jews and Christian - come in pretty much every color available, the idea that Islamophobia is interchangeable with racism is kind of strange. There's plenty to dislike and mistrust about Islam itself - like any faith - without need to conjure up racist bogeymen.

I'm willing to bet that there's a racial component to it, however, because if you asked people at these protests to describe what a Muslim physically looks like, you probably wouldn't find many people who would say, "You can't really define Muslims that narrowly, because there are a lot of different ethnicities that are Muslim." Most would probably describe an Arab muslim, a Persian muslim, or a South Asian muslim. Maybe a few would bring up Nation of Islam, but Farrakhan's been pretty quiet lately.

Edit: Bass beat me to it

[Kanastrous]

Yeah, I expect that's true.

[KrauserKrauser]

Well, my main concern, having heard the right's talking heads was the Imam behind the project which would indicate the direction that would be taken in this particular Mosque.

Hannity et al. are claiming him to be a virulent hate monger that openly supports Hamas and blames the US directly for the 9/11 attacks, which if you twist his statements I could see but at that point you are seeing only what you want to see.

He's an apologist for muslim extremism at the worst and seems to just really, really support Islam, which I would expect out of an Imam.

His statements that the president is just one speech away from winning over the Muslim world and stopping muslim extremism are farcicle at best. One speech and the US admitting it's mistakes will not remove the poverty, etc that the jihaadists are using to recruit new terrorists. I am unsurprised that he fails to mention that.

[Samuel]

Except that the people who are recruited by terrorists tend not to be poor, but middle class and well educated.

[Drone]

Except that the people who are recruited by terrorists tend not to be poor, but middle class and well educated.

Huh? When did this happen? The leadership tends to be better educated, but the vast majority of insurgents and terrorists are recruited from the ranks of the poor, unless there's been a huge change in the last couple years.

[KrauserKrauser]

The 9/11 hijackers may be an exception as you actually need competency to fly a plane but I am more interested in the people that are willing to strap a bomb on their chest and die for Allah.

Not much education or intelligence required for that.

[Samuel]

http://www.krueger.princeton.edu/terrorism2.pdf

Go to Palestinean Terrorists figure 1 and 2.

Figure one (since I can't figure out how to copy it) is poverty rates 15 versus 35 (suicide bomber versus non-bombers)

figure 2 is educational level 40% HS 60% HS+ versus 50% middle school or less 40% HS 15% HS+

Is that helpful or is the sample size too small?

[Srelex]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/us/po ... obama.html

WASHINGTON — President Obama delivered a strong defense on Friday night of a proposed Muslim community center and mosque near ground zero in Manhattan, using a White House dinner celebrating Ramadan to proclaim that “as a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country.”

After weeks of avoiding the high-profile battle over the center — his press secretary, Robert Gibbs, said last week that the president did not want to “get involved in local decision-making” — Mr. Obama stepped squarely into the thorny debate.

“I understand the emotions that this issue engenders. Ground zero is, indeed, hallowed ground,” the president said in remarks prepared for the annual White House iftar, the sunset meal breaking the day’s fast.

But, he continued: “This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are.”

In hosting the iftar, Mr. Obama was following a White House tradition that, while sporadic, dates to Thomas Jefferson, who held a sunset dinner for the first Muslim ambassador to the United States. President George W. Bush hosted iftars annually.

Aides to Mr. Obama say privately that he has always felt strongly about the proposed community center and mosque, but the White House did not want to weigh in until local authorities made a decision on the proposal, planned for two blocks from the site of the Sept. 11 attack on the World Trade Center.

Last week, New York City removed the final construction hurdle for the project, and Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg spoke forcefully in favor of it.
The community center proposal has led to a national uproar over Islam, 9/11 and freedom of religion during a hotly contested midterm election season.

In New York, Rick A. Lazio, a Republican candidate for governor and a former member of the House of Representatives, issued a statement responding to Mr. Obama’s remarks, saying that the president was still “not listening to New Yorkers.”

“With over 100 mosques in New York City, this is not an issue of religion, but one of safety and security,” he said.

Sarah Palin, the former governor of Alaska and the Republican vice-presidential candidate in 2008, has called the project “an unnecessary provocation” and urged “peace-seeking Muslims” to reject it.

The Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish organization, has also opposed the center.

In his remarks, Mr. Obama distinguished between the terrorists who plotted the 9/11 attacks and Islam. “Al Qaeda’s cause is not Islam — it is a gross distortion of Islam,” the president said, adding, “In fact, Al Qaeda has killed more Muslims than people of any other religion, and that list includes innocent Muslims who were killed on 9/11.”

Noting that “Muslim Americans serve with honor in our military,” Mr. Obama said that at next week’s iftar at the Pentagon, “tribute will be paid to three soldiers who gave their lives in Iraq and now rest among the heroes of Arlington National Cemetery.”

Mr. Obama ran for office promising to improve relations with the Muslim world, by taking steps like closing the detention center at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, and more generally reaching out. In a speech in Cairo last year, he vowed “a new beginning.”

But Ali Abunimah, an Arab-American journalist and author, said the president has since left many Muslims disappointed.

“There has been no follow-through; Guantánamo is still open and so forth, so all you have left for him to show is in the symbolic field,” Mr. Abunimah said, adding that it was imperative for Mr. Obama to “stand up to Islamophobia.”

Once Mr. Bloomberg spoke out, the president’s course seemed clear, said Steven Clemons of the New America Foundation, a public policy institution here.

“Bloomberg’s speech was, I think, the pivotal one, and set the standard for leadership on this issue,” Mr. Clemons said.

Mr. Bloomberg, in a statement, said: “This proposed mosque and community center in Lower Manhattan is as important a test of the separation of church and state as we may see in our lifetime, and I applaud President Obama’s clarion defense of the freedom of religion tonight.”

Sharif el-Gamal, the developer on the project, said, “We are deeply moved and tremendously grateful for our president’s words.”

A building on the site of the proposed center is already used for prayers, and some worshipers there on Friday night discussed the president’s remarks.

Mohamed Haroun, an intern at a mechanical engineering firm, said, “What he should have said was: ‘This is a community decision. Constitutionally, they have the right to do it, but it’s a community decision and we should see what the local community wants to do.’ ”

[KrauserKrauser]

Good speech as usual and hopefully this will become more and more of a non-issue.

However, I still take issue with the Imam's idiotic statements as to what is required to eliminate the threat of islamic fundamentalist terrorism towards America. No amount of bending over backwards to make them feel accepted or speeches saying how bad we are is going to jack shit. They will have to be forcibly removed from the religion from the inside, exposed and reported to authorities, but that's too hard and it's easier to cry about the ultimate crimes of the US and only the big, bad bully would admit his wrongs we'd stop threatening and attempting to destroy him.

[Edi]

Good speech as usual and hopefully this will become more and more of a non-issue.

However, I still take issue with the Imam's idiotic statements as to what is required to eliminate the threat of islamic fundamentalist terrorism towards America. No amount of bending over backwards to make them feel accepted or speeches saying how bad we are is going to jack shit. They will have to be forcibly removed from the religion from the inside, exposed and reported to authorities, but that's too hard and it's easier to cry about the ultimate crimes of the US and only the big, bad bully would admit his wrongs we'd stop threatening and attempting to destroy him.

The answer to that is in its essence fairly simple: The US should stop heavyhandedly interfering in the internal affairs of Muslim countries and killing Muslims. Unconditional support of Israel doesn't help either. In Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Somalia and other places, Muslims die in US attacks (military strikes, drone strikes etc) and those deaths tend to cause a lot of radicalization. But whenever these kind of incidents kill civilians, they are always glossed over and they are not reported in the US media, so Americans generally have no idea what is actually going on. Then they wonder why the Muslims "hate America for its Freedom".

Do a little looking into the subject and you will soon find that a lot of the problems the US has with the Muslim world are a consequence of its chosen foreign policy.