"If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

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"If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by DPDarkPrimus »

The school-teacher type woman sits on a desk in front of a blackboard to deliver her message: “Gay marriages have everything to do with schools.

She clicks on a television screen, where viewers meet Robb and Robin Wirthlin of Lexington, Mass.

“Our son came home and told us the school taught him that boys can marry other boys. He’s in second grade,” says Robin Wirthlin, who, with her husband, unsuccessfully sued their school district after a teacher discussed gay marriage in the classroom.

The 30-second TV commercial warns that if California voters reject Proposition 8 – a constitutional amendment that defines marriage as being between a man and woman – local schools could emulate Massachusetts and teach young children about gay marriage.

Is that true? The answer, as it turns out, is a bit cloudy.

Hilary McLean, a spokeswoman for state Superintendent Jack O’Connell, said the decision to teach gay marriage lies with local communities and school boards.

“Schools are not required to talk about marriage at all,” McLean said. “It’s up to local school districts to decide.”

The state Education Code will be unaffected by passage or failure of Prop. 8.

The code only instructs schools to “teach respect for marriage and committed relationships” as part of health and sex education curriculum. The code allows districts to decide against teaching health and sex education, and allows parents to pull their children from those classes or others dealing with sensitive subject matters.

Ocean View School District trustee John Briscoe, a supporter of Prop. 8, said the Education Code and state curriculum may not change right away if Prop. 8 fails, but having gay marriage become legal would eventually prompt challenges to reflect the law of the land, limiting the decision-making power of local school boards.

“Local schools boards can approve their own curriculum, but they must meet under the umbrella of state standards,” Briscoe said. “To say that the state department of education’s hands will be free of this gay marriage issue is false.”

Santa Ana Unified trustee Rosemarie Avila, another supporter of Prop. 8, also said she would oppose policies to incorporate gay marriage into the curriculum, but the state often has more than control over curriculum like sex education than local school boards.

None of the state’s 1,000 districts have so far adopted policies to reflect January’s state Supreme Court’s legalization of gay marriage. Officials from other county school districts said they doubt any local agencies would voluntarily be willing to take on the issue by adopting policies that incorporate aspects of gay marriage if Prop. 8 fails.

“Proposition 8 does not deal with curriculum, so its passage or failure would not impact instruction,” said Ian Hanigan, spokesman for Irvine Unified, a district that offers comprehensive sex education instruction to adolescents. “There has never been a directive from the state that specifies marriage as applying to ‘heterosexual’ or ‘homosexual’ couples.”

In Garden Grove Unified, the concept of marriage is not taught as part of regular curriculum, so changes in the law would also not change class instruction, said Alan Trudell, the district’s spokesman.

Officials from Newport-Mesa Unified and Westminster School District also said they don’t expect the failure of Prop. 8 to change district policies, which do not require discussion of gender as it relates to marriage.

But Sonja Eddings Brown, deputy communications director for Protect Marriage Coalition, said the failure of Prop. 8 could allow for discussion of gay marriage to surface outside the sex education curriculum, and potentially in the early school grades.

“Schools begin talking to children about the characteristics of family and marriage as early as the second grade,” Brown said. “We are not challenging the rights of gays to marry, but what we are challenging is when those rights are forced into the classroom.”

Brown points to the Wirthlin lawsuit from Massachusetts, where a teacher read a fairy tale to students about how two princes kissed and could marry each other. The teacher did not notify parents prior to the reading.

In that case, a federal appeals court rejected the parents’ argument that the Lexington public school district should have given them prior notice that it was going to include books that include gay families on their student reading lists. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear the case earlier this month, allowing the appeals court ruling to stand.

Robb and Robin Wirthlin are traveling through California campaigning for Prop. 8.

“This is why so many parents are getting behind Prop. 8,” Brown said. “If this fails, gay activists can come in and file lawsuits to demand gay marriage be included in class discussions about family.”

Kate Kendell, executive director for the national Center for Lesbian Rights, said it’s a mistake to compare Massachusetts education policy with that of California because of the different education laws and provisions for opting out offered to parents in California.

“The claim that Prop. 8 has anything to do with schools is a lie,” Kendell said. “The way children are taught today won’t change one bit.”

The California Teachers Association, state superintendent O’Connell, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, the American Civil Liberties Union, and gay and civil rights groups oppose Prop. 8, saying it is misleading to inject education into the debate over gay marriage.

“Bringing in education as part of the campaign for Prop. 8 is solely designed to scare people into supporting the elimination of rights of people to marry the person they love,” Kendell said.

On Tuesday, supporters of Prop. 8 attempted through blogs and e-mails to encourage parents to keep their kids home from school to protest a decision last week by the California Teachers Association to donate $1 million to the “No on Prop. 8” campaign. But local school districts reported no significant changes in absentee rates.

A poll released Friday by CBS news and SurveyUSA shows Prop. 8 leading with likely voters across the state, 48 percent to 45 percent.
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The usual rantings of folks who don't want anyone to influence their kids but theirselves and Jesus.
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by Mayabird »

I want to find some of these idiots and say, "So what? So what if your kids know about gay marriage? You think homosexuality is some sort of disease that kids can pick up, like cooties? You think your kids are going to pick up cooties and turn gay and marry one of their same-gender friends two decades down the line? That's not how it works! And even if it did, which it doesn't, so what?" And so on. Everyone here has heard the arguments a dozen times at least.
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by Darth Wong »

They believe that ideas they disagree with are like viruses or bacteria, and that their children have some kind of intellectual AIDS, so the only way to "protect" them from these ideas is to scrub their environment clean of them.
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by Darth Fanboy »

These people are getting worse and worse each day as election day gets closer. They're all over the street corners here in South Orange COunty. You see people bringing their kids who obviously have no fucking idea what they are representing with these signs and soccer moms waving their hands like it's a beauty pageant.

The worst part is that they make zero effort to refute their obvious lies, the Vote No ads have done a pretty good jon of refuting them in my opinion, but that doesn't deter these bigots. Lying about their own Parental Rights and religious freedoms is really the only tactic they have availiable to them without giving in to more hateful desires. I very rarely see the "Yes" TV ads, and the "No" Ads are on quite a bit. Last I checked, Prop 8 was still losing in the polls.
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Mayabird wrote:I want to find some of these idiots and say, "So what? So what if your kids know about gay marriage? You think homosexuality is some sort of disease that kids can pick up, like cooties? You think your kids are going to pick up cooties and turn gay and marry one of their same-gender friends two decades down the line? That's not how it works! And even if it did, which it doesn't, so what?" And so on. Everyone here has heard the arguments a dozen times at least.
You'd get one of two responses for those people who firmly believe in Prop 8, at least in my experience. You will either meet someone who attempts to appear reasonabke, desperately explaining that is isn't about gay rights, but their own religious freedoms before they tail off into the bullshit "America is a Christian Nation" talking points, or you get a much more antagonsitic response about morality and religion that is so hypocritical in its application you're left dumber and angrier than when you started.

I'd like to think that, if any state could shoot something like this down, it would be California. But there are a lot of right wingers in my part of the state and especially in the affluent areas.
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Mayabird wrote:I want to find some of these idiots and say, "So what? So what if your kids know about gay marriage? You think homosexuality is some sort of disease that kids can pick up, like cooties? You think your kids are going to pick up cooties and turn gay and marry one of their same-gender friends two decades down the line? That's not how it works! And even if it did, which it doesn't, so what?" And so on. Everyone here has heard the arguments a dozen times at least.
You'd get one of two responses for those people who firmly believe in Prop 8, at least in my experience. You will either meet someone who attempts to appear reasonabke, desperately explaining that is isn't about gay rights, but their own religious freedoms before they tail off into the bullshit "America is a Christian Nation" talking points, or you get a much more antagonsitic response about morality and religion that is so hypocritical in its application you're left dumber and angrier than when you started.

I'd like to think that, if any state could shoot something like this down, it would be California. But there are a lot of right wingers in my part of the state and especially in the affluent areas.
I am considering this the empirical test of whether engaging bigots with non violent, purely political means can work. If any state can vote this down it is CA... if it cant, a change in tactics is required
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by Darth Fanboy »

I am considering this the empirical test of whether engaging bigots with non violent, purely political means can work. If any state can vote this down it is CA... if it cant, a change in tactics is required
You can't engage the bigots, but hopefully the people undecided by this see the deplorable shit and see it for what it is.
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

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Darth Fanboy wrote:You can't engage the bigots, but hopefully the people undecided by this see the deplorable shit and see it for what it is.
The undecideds are definitely going to decide the outcome. The good thing is that there is NOTHING in the wording of the proposition that says ANYTHING about what is being taught in schools. Here is this actual text:
ELIMINATES RIGHT OF SAME-SEX COUPLES TO MARRY. INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT. Changes the California Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry in California. Provides that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California. Fiscal Impact: Over next few years, potential revenue loss, mainly sales taxes, totaling in the several tens of millions of dollars, to state and local governments. In the long run, likely little fiscal impact on state and local governments.
In fact, it even states that voting yes on 8 will cost several tens of millions of dollars doing nothing but to eliminate the right for same-sex couples to marry. People who are still undecided on election day typically vote no if they are confused about a proposition, which is something I'm hoping for come November 4th.
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

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Stunning logic: The law will change, therefore school may mention to my children that it did, and gay people can legally marry now!

THE SCHOOLS WILL TEACH MY KIDS ABOUT HOW THE WORLD WORKS! SHOCKING! DISGUSTING! ABOMINATION!

Did they scream when Pluto was demoted from being a "real" planet and teachers mentioned that to their children? :D
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Pint0 Xtreme wrote: The undecideds are definitely going to decide the outcome. The good thing is that there is NOTHING in the wording of the proposition that says ANYTHING about what is being taught in schools.
That's one of the things I like best about one of the No on 8 commercials. They have the head of California schools say almost those exact thing, and then list a number of state organizations opposing Prop 8, and even calling them out for their use of children in pursuing their agenda.
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

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Mayabird wrote:I want to find some of these idiots and say, "So what? So what if your kids know about gay marriage? You think homosexuality is some sort of disease that kids can pick up, like cooties? You think your kids are going to pick up cooties and turn gay and marry one of their same-gender friends two decades down the line?
Of course, their answer would be "yes".
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

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“We are not challenging the rights of gays to marry, but what we are challenging is when those rights are forced into the classroom.”
but forcing religious nonsense like Creationism into the classrooms is AOK :roll:
Brown points to the Wirthlin lawsuit from Massachusetts, where a teacher read a fairy tale to students about how two princes kissed and could marry each other. The teacher did not notify parents prior to the reading.
Those poor children could be scarred for life :lol:

“This is why so many parents are getting behind Prop. 8,” Brown said. “If this fails, gay activists can come in and file lawsuits to demand gay marriage be included in class discussions about family.”
And this is bad - why exactly?
Darth Wong wrote:They believe that ideas they disagree with are like viruses or bacteria
To some extent, they are right, if you consider their blinkered point of view is easily defeated by rational thinking. Once a person starts to question the bigotry and religious indoctrination, there can often be no going back.

Best to protect them from rational thought for as long as possible, in order to ensure that the children are exposed to the maximum possible brainwashing. If this gets them too early, it could be fatal.
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

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I am considering this the empirical test of whether engaging bigots with non violent, purely political means can work. If any state can vote this down it is CA... if it cant, a change in tactics is required
That's treading dangerously close to inciting criminal activity.
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

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Hillary wrote:
“This is why so many parents are getting behind Prop. 8,” Brown said. “If this fails, gay activists can come in and file lawsuits to demand gay marriage be included in class discussions about family.”
And this is bad - why exactly?
Because reality should conform to the worldview of fundie fucktard parents, obviously.

It's funny how they don't see the double standard at all: how is telling kids in class "In our state, the law allows gay people to marry" any different from, say, "In our state, thieves get jail terms, their hands are not cut off"? Or any other factual statement?

Why, it involves men kissing, of course. If these people were consistent, they would've demanded teachers cease discussing sexual orientation completely. There are no gays in America!
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

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Darth Wong wrote:They believe that ideas they disagree with are like viruses or bacteria, and that their children have some kind of intellectual AIDS, so the only way to "protect" them from these ideas is to scrub their environment clean of them.
This actually sounds like something of a plausible world view if you want to convince your kids of something that flies in the face of evidence and logic. Exposure to other ideas is probably the most effective way of eventually wearing down the belief of kids of fundies.
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

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PeZook wrote: If these people were consistent, they would've demanded teachers cease discussing sexual orientation completely. There are no gays in America!
I'm old enough to remember when this was, in fact, the case. There was NO mention whatsoever of homosexuality in schools, or indeed anything but strict heterosexuality, when I was growing up. I learned about it because my parents provided me reading material on a broad spectrum of sexual issues. THEY had to self-educate because one of their daughters turned out to be sexual pervert - which is what homosexuals were regarded as back then. It was nothing like now. The most tame pair of lesbians really were regarded the same as serial killers, child molesters and people who fucked small animals to death. Imagine - that was the ONLY images of homosexuals we had growing up, then my eldest sister realizes she is one of THEM... No wonder she had problems with self-image and loathing herself.

I don't advocate telling the sexual nitty gritty to 7 year olds (who would probably just say "Ew, that's gross!" anyway) but I am absolutely in favor of age-appropriate information on any and all subjects, including controversial and uncomfortable ones
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

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PeZook wrote: If these people were consistent, they would've demanded teachers cease discussing sexual orientation completely. There are no gays in America!
Do you not remember? These are probably the same people that want no sex education or abstinence only sex-ed and shriek in horror when anything else is suggested.
Broomstick wrote:I don't advocate telling the sexual nitty gritty to 7 year olds (who would probably just say "Ew, that's gross!" anyway) but I am absolutely in favor of age-appropriate information on any and all subjects, including controversial and uncomfortable ones
My public speaking professor at Tarleton told us about something like this. She had to explain "the birds and the bees" to a group of kindergarteners when she was in school. I don't remember the details of what she said but I do remember thinking that it was a clever way to explain the concept to children.
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

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I have in my house a book written in the 1960s, which neatly explains all details about human sexuality, including homosexuality, in a language clearly understandable by children.

It was written by a filthy Polish doctor under a communist government, though, so I guess it doesn't count. Or it does and proves communists want children to have sex! :D
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
I am considering this the empirical test of whether engaging bigots with non violent, purely political means can work. If any state can vote this down it is CA... if it cant, a change in tactics is required
That's treading dangerously close to inciting criminal activity.
Gee, am I glad you are not a mod then, dipshit.

Lets take a look at our options

We can continue as we have been doing and peacably lobby for our rights like we have for the last 30 years with very little legal effect

Or, we can get a fuck-ton meaner. Doesnt even have to be violent. Just underhanded and sneaky. We can *gasp* lie just like our opponents do. Or use the stats we have at our disposal to guilt trip our opponents into submission.

I am a utilitarian, as far as I am concerned the ends justify the means
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Gee, am I glad you are not a mod then, dipshit.
And I didn't mean to act like one.
Lets take a look at our options

We can continue as we have been doing and peacably lobby for our rights like we have for the last 30 years with very little legal effect

Or, we can get a fuck-ton meaner. Doesnt even have to be violent. Just underhanded and sneaky. We can *gasp* lie just like our opponents do. Or use the stats we have at our disposal to guilt trip our opponents into submission.

I am a utilitarian, as far as I am concerned the ends justify the means
In that case I apologise. In the context, it sounded like you were talking about violence specifically, since you specifically referred to a test of weather non-violent methods can work. If I was incorrect in my assumption, I'm sorry.
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

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PeZook wrote:If these people were consistent, they would've demanded teachers cease discussing sexual orientation completely. There are no gays in America!
Actually, many of them feel that this is precisely what we should do. There have been calls to ban certain school books for merely mentioning gays, because they fear that this "normalizes" homosexuality for children. Their argument is that homosexuality should not be mentioned in school at all unless it is in a context of moral condemnation, otherwise "kids won't know what to think".
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Gee, am I glad you are not a mod then, dipshit.
And I didn't mean to act like one.
Lets take a look at our options

We can continue as we have been doing and peacably lobby for our rights like we have for the last 30 years with very little legal effect

Or, we can get a fuck-ton meaner. Doesnt even have to be violent. Just underhanded and sneaky. We can *gasp* lie just like our opponents do. Or use the stats we have at our disposal to guilt trip our opponents into submission.

I am a utilitarian, as far as I am concerned the ends justify the means
In that case I apologise. In the context, it sounded like you were talking about violence specifically, since you specifically referred to a test of weather non-violent methods can work. If I was incorrect in my assumption, I'm sorry.
Oh, the violence certainly crosses my mind on a regular basis. But I also have a super-villain and socialist-revolutionary streak the size of Angola.
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CaptainChewbacca
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

My best friend is a teacher here in California, and she's told me they barely have enough time to teach and get all the good socialization teaching they ALREADY have to do to worry about teaching kids its ok to have two daddies.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
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Anguirus
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by Anguirus »

“Our son came home and told us the school taught him that boys can marry other boys. He’s in second grade,” says Robin Wirthlin, who, with her husband, unsuccessfully sued their school district after a teacher discussed gay marriage in the classroom.
This mindset is completely alien to me. My parents would have had no problem with me knowing this.

Mind you, they were a bit squeamish about telling me about sexuality in general ("So how EXACTLY does the sperm get to the egg in mommy's tummy?" was a question of mine that went unanswered), but when I started asking what gay meant around the age of 10 (I was sheltered, I guess...shut up) they had not a second's hesitation in explaining to me "Sometimes boys or girls like other boys or girls, instead of each other. Some people don't like this but we don't think there's anything wrong with it."

Bam. Period. Done. Shortly thereafter I put two and two together and figured out that certain friends of ours that always arrived in pairs were in fact gay couples.

I think what these parents really fear...I really, really do...is not explaining to their child that men can marry men, but explaining that men can marry men and they don't want them to.. Because any basically good-natured child that I've ever met in my life would think in response, "that's mean!"
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
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You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
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Admiral Valdemar
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Re: "If Prop 8 fails, schools will teach about gay marriage!"

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Sounds like the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is favoured among these new Orwellian types. If you remove the term, you remove the person. It's even better than slinging mud at the opposition, because that still acknowledges they exist and may have cause to. If you simply ignore them, you win.

Now why can't they do this in their own gated communities away from everyone progressive?
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