Prop 8 battle turns violent

[Kodiak]

from local news

MODESTO, CA - Jose Nunez was passing out Yes on Prop 8 signs in front of St. Stanislaus church, when a man grabbed 75 of his signs and ran.

"I couldn't believe it, he just bolted," said Nunez.

Yes on Prop 8 opposes same-sex marriage.

Nunez spotted the man tossing the signs over a wall and he approached him.

"He asked what do you have against gay people? I said nothing it's not about that," Nunez adds.

When Nunez tried to take back his signs, the man punched him in the face. The punch sent Nunez to the hospital where he needed stitches.

The suspect then fled.

No on Prop 8 officials quickly issued a statement saying violence during the campaign is disgraceful and cannot be tollerated.

Modesto Police are investigating the assault but have no suspects.

Anyone have thoughts on this? I have a friend who's saying that this is only the beginning and there will be more violence either way. I'd like to think that people on both sides could be level-headed, but this points to a highly charged emotional response.

[Darth Wong]

When you tell people that they must be excluded in order to avoid destroying "sanctity", you're telling them that they're so disgusting to you that their mere presence would ruin your precious social institutions. How do you expect them to react?

[Kodiak]

When you tell people that they must be excluded in order to avoid destroying "sanctity", you're telling them that they're so disgusting to you that their mere presence would ruin your precious social institutions. How do you expect them to react?

I would hope that they would see violence as a last resort. Are you saying that this reaction is acceptable? I'm worried about riots in the streets come November, and I was wondering if anyone else feels that's a likely outcome.

[Masami von Weizegger]

When you tell people that they must be excluded in order to avoid destroying "sanctity", you're telling them that they're so disgusting to you that their mere presence would ruin your precious social institutions. How do you expect them to react?

But the guy said it's not about "that" (of course not, it's about sanctity of marriage, which means excluding homosexuals yet is not about excluding them at all. Huh?). Check mate.

While I don't tend to condone fist-on-face action based on the passing out of signs I can certainly understand the anger and outrage stemming from the man who assaulted Mr. Nunez. He supports and is trying to remove the rights of potentially hundreds of thousands of people (sorry, I don't have an actual number for the homosexual population of California)!

[Kodiak]

But the guy said it's not about "that" (of course not, it's about sanctity of marriage, which means excluding homosexuals yet is not about excluding them at all. Huh?). Check mate.

That's what finally got me: The entire "Yes on 8" movement says that it's not about gay rights yet that's exactly what the measure is doing, whether they say it's intentional or not. That's why I couldn't support this measure. I know a lot of people who feel that the "liberal media" has tied their hands and are feeling equally frustrated about how their opinions and beliefs are being treated (nobody likes to be a bad guy) and I believe their frustration will explode just as violently in the next 2 weeks.

[General Zod]

Anyone have thoughts on this? I have a friend who's saying that this is only the beginning and there will be more violence either way. I'd like to think that people on both sides could be level-headed, but this points to a highly charged emotional response.

Are you saying you'd be able to be level headed if someone was actively seeking to deprive you of the same rights as the rest of the nation?

[Covenant]

It's never acceptable, but it's certainly not an unreasonable response. If someone was passing out signs saying "Vote No on Covenant's Right to Family!" and sticking them on their front lawns, and then telling me it's not about them hating me, it's about them just not wanting me to spoil marriage for them by getting married, or having children, I'd get angry too. Sure, that's a little different, but only a little. It's not alright in any sense to have a mobilization of bigotry, and for people to turn violent against it would be a perfectly normal response. A perfectly normal and unacceptable response.

[Jaevric]

Are you saying that this reaction is acceptable? I'm worried about riots in the streets come November, and I was wondering if anyone else feels that's a likely outcome.

Acceptable? No. Understandable? Yes. I'd support prosecuting the guy for punching someone who was putting up political advertisements, but I can certainly see how the level of frustration and bigotry experienced by homosexuals would lead someone to the breaking point over something this ridiculous.

People supporting this proposition are basically saying "My religious beliefs are more important than your happiness, and laws should be in place to make you a second-class citizen because it makes me feel better." Gays wanting to be able to marry their partners aren't hurting anyone by being allowed to do so; no real harm is being done to anyone by allowing gays to marry.

I think riots in the street are a lot more likely if Proposition 8 is shot down than if it passes.

[Darth Wong]

When you tell people that they must be excluded in order to avoid destroying "sanctity", you're telling them that they're so disgusting to you that their mere presence would ruin your precious social institutions. How do you expect them to react?

I would hope that they would see violence as a last resort.

Obviously the majority do, which is why you are hearing about this incident rather than thousands of these incidents.

Are you saying that this reaction is acceptable? I'm worried about riots in the streets come November, and I was wondering if anyone else feels that's a likely outcome.

I'm saying it's understandable. (EDIT: barring actual sociopathy) If you can't understand someone's motivations, it means you're not trying hard enough. There is no such thing as being too righteous to understand.

And frankly, I think we both know that if someone were trying to enact legal discrimination against the Christian majority on the same level, there would be an incredible amount of violence.

[Kodiak]

Are you saying you'd be able to be level headed if someone was actively seeking to deprive you of the same rights as the rest of the nation?

I'm saying I could restrain myself from punching them in the face after I stole their propaganda.

[Kodiak]

I think riots in the street are a lot more likely if Proposition 8 is shot down than if it passes.

Indeed, I've heard people in the Christian right demographic saying they would "actively prevent" any actions which they felt as discriminatory towards their beliefs and rights, and these were phrased as thinly veiled threats. When I asked them how they could do the same to gays, I got talking points and sound-bites

[General Zod]

Are you saying you'd be able to be level headed if someone was actively seeking to deprive you of the same rights as the rest of the nation?

I'm saying I could restrain myself from punching them in the face after I stole their propaganda.

"Level-headed" means "don't punch them in the face" now? Is expressing yourself in other forms of outrage being perfectly level headed as long as nobody's getting punched?

[Darth Wong]

Suppose Christians were not allowed to legally marry, but were instead allowed to only get what something called "Christian unions", because the Christian definition of "marriage" differs from the secular legal one (which is true, because the secular one allows for a lot of things that the Christian one doesn't). How would Christians react?

[Kodiak]

Are you saying you'd be able to be level headed if someone was actively seeking to deprive you of the same rights as the rest of the nation?

I'm saying I could restrain myself from punching them in the face after I stole their propaganda.

"Level-headed" means "don't punch them in the face" now? Is expressing yourself in other forms of outrage being perfectly level headed as long as nobody's getting punched?

I believe people can be outraged without being outrageous or raging. If people aren't allowed to express or articulate their frustration, or feel they can't, that's when things get out of control.

[General Zod]

I believe people can be outraged without being outrageous or raging. If people aren't allowed to express or articulate their frustration, or feel they can't, that's when things get out of control.

Punching someone in the face is a form of expressing your frustration. Clearly we're using completely separate definitions of "level headed" here.

[Kodiak]

I believe people can be outraged without being outrageous or raging. If people aren't allowed to express or articulate their frustration, or feel they can't, that's when things get out of control.

Punching someone in the face is a form of expressing your frustration. Clearly we're using completely separate definitions of "level headed" here.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said "without being outrageous or raging". Are you saying that some people are so frustrated that punching is the only way to get it out of their system? You may be right.

[Darth Wong]

Perhaps you missed the part where I said "without being outrageous or raging". Are you saying that some people are so frustrated that punching is the only way to get it out of their system? You may be right.

I know it's uncouth to play the race card, but I honestly don't think that a white Christian heterosexual male in America can truly understand what it feels like to be an oppressed minority. You see the ridiculous things they try to trump up into discrimination claims (like "not being allowed to use my government job as a forum to disseminate religious propaganda"), and you realize that they have no idea what it's like to be an outsider. It would be nice if they could be made to understand.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Suppose Christians were not allowed to legally marry, but were instead allowed to only get what something called "Christian unions", because the Christian definition of "marriage" differs from the secular legal one (which is true, because the secular one allows for a lot of things that the Christian one doesn't). How would Christians react?

Compared to Christians, the LGBT community are fucking angels. Considering the mistreatment of LGBT individuals over the past few decades, I'm honestly surprised the only thing that's been thrown is a fist. If Christians were not allowed to legally marry, I'd expect cities to burn.

[General Zod]

I believe people can be outraged without being outrageous or raging. If people aren't allowed to express or articulate their frustration, or feel they can't, that's when things get out of control.

Punching someone in the face is a form of expressing your frustration. Clearly we're using completely separate definitions of "level headed" here.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said "without being outrageous or raging". Are you saying that some people are so frustrated that punching is the only way to get it out of their system? You may be right.

Main Entry:
1out·rage Listen to the pronunciation of 1outrage
Pronunciation:
\ˈau̇t-ˌrāj\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French utrage, outrage insult, excess, from outre, utre beyond, from Latin ultra — more at ultra-
Date:
14th century

1: an act of violence or brutality2 a: injury , insult <do no outrages on silly women or poor passengers — Shakespeare> b: an act that violates accepted standards of behavior or taste <an outrage alike against decency and dignity — John Buchan>3: the anger and resentment aroused by injury or insult

Just so we're working from the same page here.

[Covenant]

Definitions of words aside, no, you really can't always be outraged without being outrageous. If something is terribly, awfully wrong then you should be sure to defend it with an equal response. A nation of bigots oppressing a small group forces that small group to use greatly disproportionate means to have any kind of equal voice. This doesn't mean violence is justified, it just means that when you corner a minority, they have no other option but to lash out in some way that might offend some people's sensitive sensibilities.

It's not a fair fight when one side outnumbers the other 100 to 1, so throwing a fist or getting in someone's face should really not be suprising. A healthy society is built on the idea that we protect the few from the many, not the other way around, so this should really be an outrage to all good people, not just the people being oppressed under Prop 8. We can't condone violence, but without this patina of moral authority Prop 8 is nothing more than state-sponsored bigotry pushed forwards by publically endorsed hate speech. How is that not an incitement to violence?

[Mobiboros]

My thoughts are thos Jose is lying some. I bet someone did grab his signs and run off. I bet he did chase him and demand them back. I'm not buying the guy just hauled off and punched him. My bet would be this Jose thought he'd be able to rough up some "fag" that stole his signs and got decked for it then painted the story to look like the guy just up and sucker punched him for demanding the signs back.

Not saying that's definite, but if I had to bet that'd be how I bet.

That said, I'm sure you will see violence in the coming weeks. You can bet if it passes there will be massive protests and the protesters will likely be targets of violence.

[Kodiak]

That said, I'm sure you will see violence in the coming weeks. You can bet if it passes there will be massive protests and the protesters will likely be targets of violence.

I think that the biggest violence will happen if it fails though. Fundies are great at terror tactics.

[Erik von Nein]

Well, I'd certainly be surprised if the only words exchanged were "What do you have against gay people?" and "It's not about that." before the guy got punched. There's typically more to these stories than either can be printed (due to lack of space depend ing on where the article is in the paper) or is being reported by the guy in the first place. It happens pretty damn often.

[Lord Poe]

Are you saying you'd be able to be level headed if someone was actively seeking to deprive you of the same rights as the rest of the nation?

Well hell, I hope those nasty obese people don't start punching or sitting on proponents who want to bar them from fast-food restaurants!

[General Zod]

Are you saying you'd be able to be level headed if someone was actively seeking to deprive you of the same rights as the rest of the nation?

Well hell, I hope those nasty obese people don't start punching or sitting on proponents who want to bar them from fast-food restaurants!

What?

Seriously, what does this have to do with anything at all in this thread?