(Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

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(Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Mr Bean »

The problem with this story is it is confined to Arabic speaking world and social media while our American media focuses on the tornado situation.
CNN International
CNN International wrote:For the past few days, peaceful Turkish citizens have been protesting the demolition of Taksim Gezi Park, one of the few green areas left in the center of Istanbul. The plan by the Erdogan-run AKP government is to build a large shopping center instead, benefitting his own interests and filling his own pockets.



What started with a mere 100 protestors turned into tens of thousands over the course of a few days. People camped out in the park, sang songs, read books, danced. I was there yesterday and it was heartwarming.



Prime Minister Erdogan made a public announcement two days ago stating, 'We have made up our minds', and that nothing will stop his plans to destroy the park.



He subsequently ordered his police forces to attack protestors in the park using water cannons and tear gas without warning in the early hours of the morning. This has been happening for the past two days, and continues as I write these words. Tents were burned, innocent citizens were dragged away and people had tear gas sprayed directly into their faces.



Innocent people are being attacked, injured and hospitalized. There are unofficial reports of one person being dead with his ID confiscated by officials (an eerie replay of the May 1 attacks when an innocent young girl was put into a coma due to tear gas attacks. This girl was later labeled by the government as a terrorist)



This has become a matter about more than just saving trees. This is an 'I can do whatever I damn well want', fascist mentality that not only supresses but attacks its own people.



To make matters worse, media channels are being censored so as not to display the news.



#direngeziparki is now the 2nd worldwide trending topic on Twitter.

Al Jazeera
Al-J wrote:Turkish authorities have arrested dozens of people protesting in the fiercest anti-government demonstrations the country has witnessed in years, with riot police firing tear gas on demonstrators in Istanbul and Ankara.

At least 60 people were detained on Friday as they protested in Istanbul at a rally which began over the demolition of a park, but which turned into a broader protest against what they see as an increasingly authoritarian government.

"The protesters are saying that this is not about trees anymore," said Al Jazeera's Rawya Rageh, reporting from Istanbul.

Several thousand people had attended the Istanbul protest, and there is "an assortment of tear gas cannisters everywhere" in the city's main Taksim Square, she said.

More than 100 people were injured, some left lying on the ground unconscious, while two people were hospitalised with injuries to the head, an AFP photographer witnessed.

In the most severe case, a Turkish national of Palestinian origin had to undergo brain surgery after fractures to her skull, but she was doing well in intensive care, according to Istanbul governor Huseyin Avni Mutlu.

He said in televised remarks that an investigation was underway and people had been detained for "provoking violence."

The demonstrators had occupied the Gezi park since May 28 to prevent bulldozers from completing the demolition, part of the government's redevelopment plan for central Taksim Square.

In a victory for the protesters later on Friday, an Istanbul court ordered the temporary suspension of the project to uproot the trees.

But the protest spread to the capital Ankara, where about 5,000 people gathered in a park, and with police there firing tear gas to disperse crowds trying to reach the headquarters of the ruling Justice and Development Party.

The demonstrators, mostly young supporters of the opposition Republican People's Party, had planned to protest against new laws restricting the sale of alcohol and chanted: "Everywhere is resistance, Everywhere is Taksim."

The rallies also spread to two locations in the Aegean coastal city of Izmir.

Several protesters in Istanbul were injured when a wall they climbed collapsed during a police chase, and a prominent journalist was hospitalised after being hit in the head by a tear gas canister, the private Dogan news agency reported.

Rageh said many protesters complained that the police were using water cannon and firing teargas indiscriminately.

"We saw a lot of tourists running to different directions. People are trying to take refuge at coffee shops and the homes around the area. Police have been firing tear gas in different directions," she said.

"Certainly the predominant complaint here is that police are firing teargas indiscriminately.

"But they are also coming under attack from protesters. You can see them with rocks and there are injuries here. People are very angry."

'Authoritarian' government

Many of the protesters are angry at Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's Islamic-rooted government, which some Turks argue has been displaying increasingly authoritarian and uncompromising tendencies in its third successive term in office.

Last week, the government enacted a law restricting the sale and advertising of alcohol which has alarmed secular Turks who fear an encroachment on more liberal lifestyles.

Earlier this week, the government went ahead with a ground-breaking ceremony for the construction of a disputed third bridge across the Bosphorus Strait which some say will destroy the few remaining green areas of the city.

It also named the bridge after a controversial Ottoman sultan believed to have ordered a massacre of a minority Shia Muslim group, instead of choosing a more unifying figure.

Gezi Park protestors held a large poster with a caricature depicting Erdogan as an Ottoman sultan with a caption that read: "The people won't yield to you."

Erdogan dismissed the protesters' demands for the park's protection, saying the government would go ahead with renovation plans "no matter what they do".

The forestry minister said more trees would be planted than those uprooted at Gezi and has defended the government's environmental record.

Friday's dawn raid was the latest in a series of aggressive crackdown on protests. Human rights activists accuse Turkish police of using inordinate force to break up protests.

On Friday, demonstrators affected by the gas sought shelter at a luxury hotel at Taksim and were tended by guests.

Police removed tents and demonstrators' other belongings and mounted barricades around the park.
What I need to emphesis is how many protestes are being reported on social media vs in the mass media. As in 400 hundred people at some area in Turkey is totally ignored, 15000 is a small crowd and all together we are talking reports of half a million Turks in the streets being assault at every turn by some members of the police while entire other police stations have joined the protests. But the nature of social media as such when someone on Reddit or Facebook says oh yeah your making that up, we get a cell phone picture ten minutes later of local Turks 314 in their uniforms marching with not escorting protestors.

It's a very odd story.

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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Irbis »

Mr Bean wrote:The problem with this story is it is confined to Arabic speaking world and social media while our American media focuses on the tornado situation.
Turkish. Turks, like Persians, don't like to be called Arabs.

And while I'd wait for more info before saying anything, brutality and contempt for law from Turkish police is something that really wouldn't surprise me.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Mr Bean »

Irbis wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:The problem with this story is it is confined to Arabic speaking world and social media while our American media focuses on the tornado situation.
Turkish. Turks, like Persians, don't like to be called Arabs.
Ahh that's the trick
Turkish TV and radio stations were reporting nothing at all for most of a day.
Arabic TV and radio stations were on the story within an hour of the first police department mass resignation. There was coverage on Al-J and Egyption TV but nothing international yesterday. My statement was correct, there was no coverage except in the Arabic world until late last night when CNN-I picked it up and other places started noticing the situation.

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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

It has been reported by some sources that the military is sheltering protesters and refusing to turn them over to the police. Considering the junior officers were deeply embittered by the sacking and arrest of their top generals on trumped up charges of plotting against the government, the prospect of a coup of the colonels in response to this violence is surely rising quickly. It's the level and scale of violence that suggests civil society is breaking down rather than mere protests.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

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First official statement by the PM as reported by Reuters

Reuters
Reuters wrote:

By Nick Tattersall and Humeyra Pamuk

ISTANBUL/ANKARA, June 1 (Reuters) - Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan called for an immediate end on Saturday to the fiercest anti-government demonstrations for years, as thousands of protesters clashed with riot police in Istanbul and Ankara for a second day.

The unrest was triggered by government plans for a replica Ottoman-era barracks housing shops or apartments in Istanbul's Taksim Square, long a venue for political protest, but has widened into a broader show of defiance against Erdogan and his Islamist-rooted Justice and Development Party (AKP).

Police fired teargas and water cannon down a major shopping street as crowds of protesters chanting "unite against fascism" and "government resign" marched towards Taksim, where hundreds were injured in clashes on Friday.

A police helicopter buzzed overhead as groups of mostly young men and women, bandanas or surgical masks tied around their mouths, used Facebook and Twitter on mobile phones to try to organise and regroup in side streets.

Waiters scurried out of luxury hotels lining the square, on what should be a busy weekend for tourists in one of the world's most visited cities, ferrying lemons to protesters, who squirted the juice in their eyes to mitigate the effects of tear gas.

"People from different backgrounds are coming together. This has become a protest against the government, against Erdogan taking decisions like a king," said Oral Goktas, a 31-year old architect among a peaceful crowd walking towards Taksim.


"DICTATORIAL"

Stone-throwing protesters also clashed with police firing tear gas in the Kizilay district of central Ankara as a helicopter hovered overhead. Further protests were planned in other centres including the Aegean coastal city of Izmir.

The demonstration at Taksim's Gezi Park started late on Monday after trees were torn up to make way for the redevelopment. Erdogan vowed to push ahead with the plans and said the issue was being used as an excuse to stoke tensions.

"Every four years we hold elections and this nation makes its choice," he said in a speech broadcast on television.

"Those who have a problem with government's policies can express their opinions within the framework of law and democracy ... I am asking the protesters to immediately end these actions," he said.

The opposition accused him of behaving like a dictator.

"Tens of thousands are saying no, they are opposing the dictator ... The fact that you are the ruling party doesn't mean you can do whatever you want," said Kemal Kilicdaroglu, leader of the main opposition Republican People's Party (CHP).


MODERN-DAY SULTAN

Erdogan has overseen a transformation in Turkey during his decade in power, turning its economy from crisis-prone into Europe's fastest-growing, and remains by far the country's most popular politician.

But critics point to his authoritarianism and what they say is his religiously conservative government's meddling in private life in the secular republic, accusing him of behaving like a modern-day sultan.

Tighter restrictions on alcohol sales and warnings against public displays of affection in recent weeks have led to protest. Concern that government policy is allowing Turkey to be dragged into the conflict in neighbouring Syria by the West have also sparked peaceful demonstrations.

Residents hung out of windows and balconies banging pots and pans in support of the protesters in the streets below late into the night in several districts of Istanbul on Friday.

Medics said close to 1,000 people had been injured in the clashes in Istanbul alone. Half a dozen lost eyes after being hit by gas canisters, the Turkish Doctors' Association said.

"I see benefit in telling people about the project ... instead of spraying pepper gas at them," Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said of the Taksim plans, in an apparent acknowledgement of the heavy-handedness of the police crackdown.

The U.S. State Department said it was concerned by the number of injuries while Amnesty International and the European parliament raised concern about excessive use of police force.

"The severity shown by the police is completely disproportionate and is leading to a spreading of the protests," Martin Schulz, head of the European Parliament and a senior German Social Democrat, said in a statement.

Erdogan acknowledged mistakes had been made in the use of tear gas and said the government was investigating, but said the police reserved the right to use reasonable force.

"Taksim Square can't be a place where extremist groups hang around," he said of a location which has long been a venue for mass demonstrations.

"The police has had a mission there for decades, it didn't start with AKP rule. Wherever you go in the world, in places like this ... governments would take measures. That is what the steps taken here are about." (Additional reporting by Evrim Ergin and Can Sezer in Istanbul, Gareth Jones in Berlin; Writing by Nick Tattersall; Editing by Jon Boyle)
The other thing of note about the police response has been how indiscriminate it has been. Rather than stopping a protest march in it's track with barricades then getting them to disperse with water cannons and tear gas. Instead there are lots of reports of the police simply showing up and firing forty or fifty rounds of teargas into the crowd then into buildings where people are taking shelter. At which point they back off wait for people to start gathering again then show up to tear gas them again.

This vimeo Here shows what I'm talking about. You see cops firing dozens of teargas cannisters into buildings and into empty streets. Firing tear gas AT individual protestors rather than into groups as is traditional. But per the twitter feed of Gazi there are over thirty people with injuries from tear gas impacts to the head in local hospitals.

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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:It has been reported by some sources that the military is sheltering protesters and refusing to turn them over to the police. Considering the junior officers were deeply embittered by the sacking and arrest of their top generals on trumped up charges of plotting against the government, the prospect of a coup of the colonels in response to this violence is surely rising quickly. It's the level and scale of violence that suggests civil society is breaking down rather than mere protests.
This has been a long term problem in Turkey. Government vs Military. The military has deposed the government several times. Typically to preserve the countries secular status. But the government can't sack the military. What with the whole "Hate the Greeks" thing. In addition to the Kurds, Iraq, and Syria. So the government periodically cracks down by dethroning some Generals.

Its a cycle that will probably repeat several more times.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

Into buildings? Is it too much to expect from these illiterate pigs what their teargas does? Two years ago, three people choked to fucking death in Athens when some retards thought they'd bring the revolution faster by chucking molotovs in the only bank that wasn't closed for the demonstration. Fuck them, they are just trying to cause deaths to show how tough they are.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Dartzap »

I did see some rumours earlier saying that the police had been firing gas into Metro stations as well, which just boggles the mind even further.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

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Interesting note Occupy Gezi has been sending people around to merchants in Istanbul asking them to sign a petition saying they don't intend to open any franchises or new stores in the purposed mall. In fact dozens of major Turkish chain stores have released statements saying they don't intend to open any stores in the purposed mall. The park is popular enough and there exists plenty of stores nearby already that makes it an easy economic decision for companies. In fact the idea for the mall was only the third idea after the first two ideas failed. The first was to sell it for condo's but no one wanted to bid on that since the existing property barons had the park as a selling point so that got opposition. So the proposal was to build a mosque on it, except there was already one just down the street that is already under 50% usage and trying it's best to attract new members.

So if the construction barons don't want you bulldozing the park, the religious leaders don't think we need another mosque there... what about a mall? And so the third idea went through despite the fact the government failed to attract many interested patrons because there are two major shopping areas within walking distance of the park. And those companies who had signed on are backing out because of all the press the Occupy Gezi group has gotten.

And the PM is in essence saying... Come at me bro.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Dominus Atheos »

Alyeska wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:It has been reported by some sources that the military is sheltering protesters and refusing to turn them over to the police. Considering the junior officers were deeply embittered by the sacking and arrest of their top generals on trumped up charges of plotting against the government, the prospect of a coup of the colonels in response to this violence is surely rising quickly. It's the level and scale of violence that suggests civil society is breaking down rather than mere protests.
This has been a long term problem in Turkey. Government vs Military. The military has deposed the government several times. Typically to preserve the countries secular status. But the government can't sack the military. What with the whole "Hate the Greeks" thing. In addition to the Kurds, Iraq, and Syria. So the government periodically cracks down by dethroning some Generals.

Its a cycle that will probably repeat several more times.
Someone tell me if the following is true:

Turkey is practically the only example of a working, first-world modern democracy that is majority Muslim. Although there's no way to be sure, that probably couldn't have happened without the military ensuring the state stayed secular. (or at least AFAIK that's the main difference between Turkey and other Muslim countries)

Because if so, I don't see it as a "problem" in Turkey.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Alyeska »

Dominus Atheos wrote:Someone tell me if the following is true:

Turkey is practically the only example of a working, first-world modern democracy that is majority Muslim. Although there's no way to be sure, that probably couldn't have happened without the military ensuring the state stayed secular. (or at least AFAIK that's the main difference between Turkey and other Muslim countries)

Because if so, I don't see it as a "problem" in Turkey.
I would call it false. The population and government have repeatedly tried to push heavier religion. So the military steps in. But that means the democracy is broken when the military conducts repeated coups.

The military protects Turkish secularism. Not democracy.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Dominus Atheos »

Alyeska wrote:
Dominus Atheos wrote:Someone tell me if the following is true:

Turkey is practically the only example of a working, first-world modern democracy that is majority Muslim. Although there's no way to be sure, that probably couldn't have happened without the military ensuring the state stayed secular. (or at least AFAIK that's the main difference between Turkey and other Muslim countries)

Because if so, I don't see it as a "problem" in Turkey.
I would call it false. The population and government have repeatedly tried to push heavier religion. So the military steps in. But that means the democracy is broken when the military conducts repeated coups.

The military protects Turkish secularism. Not democracy.
Maybe "working" democracy was the wrong word. :P

I'd argue that secularism is a requirement for democracy, or else everybody votes for theocrats; and so by protecting secularism they are ensuring (in a roundabout way) Turkish democracy.

Let me phrase it like this: Do you (or anyone else who cares to comment) think that Turkey could be as (relatively) democratic as it is without the military coups?

Edit: I mean, obviously military coups aren't democratic, but the governmental system in Turkey is still a lot better then in every other Muslim country that I know of, and with my vastly insubstantial knowledge, I attribute that to the military coups. Is this wrong or right?
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Alyeska »

My knowledge on Turkey dates back to my college days and its pretty fuzzy. I am going to have to defer to others at this point.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by AniThyng »

Dominus Atheos wrote: Edit: I mean, obviously military coups aren't democratic, but the governmental system in Turkey is still a lot better then in every other Muslim country that I know of, and with my vastly insubstantial knowledge, I attribute that to the military coups. Is this wrong or right?
[/quote][/quote]

I suppose there's always Malaysia? I'd think I'd rather take gerrymandering over regular military coups, thanks.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by hongi »

I'd argue that secularism is a requirement for democracy, or else everybody votes for theocrats; and so by protecting secularism they are ensuring (in a roundabout way) Turkish democracy.
If everyone votes for the theocrats...guess what, that's democracy.

A military coup that overthrows a democratically elected government is not ensuring democracy, not even in a roundabout way. It is destroying democracy.

Secularism and democracy were not born together and do not belong together inherently. Greek democracy, by definition a democracy, the very first democracy, was not secular. Church and state were one.

You can't have it both ways. You either support democracy or you support a military junta who overrule the wishes of the people.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

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I said modern democracy. Modern democracies have things in place to prevent the so called tyranny of the majority. Sure, its not pure democracy, but its democracy as defined by nearly all contemporary implementations of it.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

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Hongi the problem is in the modern example, almost every time a theocracy gets elected it's first goal is to eliminate the democratic system. They are bad faith actors that way. They only participate in the democratic system in order to kill it. Once they (eventually) win a cycle they set out to eliminate any future voting.

This is particularly bad in Muslim countries due to the simple fact that unlike Christians/Jews/name other major world religion, if you go to believers in other countries and ask for X dollars to help establish a theocracy... you'll get significant financial backing. Combine low fragmentation with acceptance of religious leaders and a Turkish religious party can appeal to 400 million who are of the same denomination as they are. But better still you only need to convince about a dozen different significant cleric to get the best outreach.

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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Dominus Atheos wrote:Maybe "working" democracy was the wrong word. :P

I'd argue that secularism is a requirement for democracy, or else everybody votes for theocrats; and so by protecting secularism they are ensuring (in a roundabout way) Turkish democracy.
What? How is it then democratic then when you go against the will of the people?
I said modern democracy. Modern democracies have things in place to prevent the so called tyranny of the majority. Sure, its not pure democracy, but its democracy as defined by nearly all contemporary implementations of it.
Like what? If you fill up every crook and ninny with the right people, just about any institution can be subverted.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Mr Bean wrote:Hongi the problem is in the modern example, almost every time a theocracy gets elected it's first goal is to eliminate the democratic system. They are bad faith actors that way. They only participate in the democratic system in order to kill it. Once they (eventually) win a cycle they set out to eliminate any future voting.
I would dare go as far as say that most democracies are filled to the brim with "bad faith actors" since one of the first thing any party in power does is gerrymander the electoral map for its own benefit.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by hongi »

Mr Bean wrote:Hongi the problem is in the modern example, almost every time a theocracy gets elected it's first goal is to eliminate the democratic system. They are bad faith actors that way. They only participate in the democratic system in order to kill it. Once they (eventually) win a cycle they set out to eliminate any future voting.
Those terrible Islamists, there's no way secular people would do such a thing as to subvert democracy. Erm...Egypt? Syria?

A lot of hard-core Islamists don't even vote anyway, since they think democracy is un-Islamic. They're political quietists. Egypt is actually the exception to that now.

Erdogan and his party is the democratically elected leader, the majority of his country voted him in. Call for a coup if you want, just don't pretend that it's in the 'interests of democracy' or some bullshit like that. Call it for what it is. You don't like the guy, you don't like the constituency that voted him in, you don't like his policies. What you're doing though, is overthrowing democracy by violent means.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Ralin »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:What? How is it then democratic then when you go against the will of the people?
Because it's a necessity if the actual system of democracy is going to be sustained?

There's such a thing as nuance, man. We've learned by now that undemocratic elements are necessary to keep an overall democratic system that provides a decent standard of living going, just like when we say "No you can't lynch X minority even if everyone agrees they don't like them.". Look at the big picture. Kicking out Islamists who got elected yesterday to ensure that there are elections tomorrow, the day after tomorrow and so forth does further the cause of democracy even if it isn't democratic in the immediate sense.
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hongi
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by hongi »

So democracy is only worth it if people agree on the result you want. I wonder why even have democracy then.
Ralin
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Ralin »

hongi wrote:So democracy is only worth it if people agree on the result you want. I wonder why even have democracy then.
No, it's only worth it if it gives good results and works. "People having a say in their government" and "Gay people not being lynched" can both be good things that should be promoted. Your trolling not withstanding we don't have to say that the former is always good or desirable for it to be worth having most of the time.
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hongi
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

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Good results and works = what you think is a good result and what you think works. What about what other people think is a good result? e.g. the 50% of Turks who voted for Erdogan.

Erdogan is nowhere near as bad to justify overthrowing the government via military coup in order to satisfy your personal whims.

Even now. What's democratic is to call for him to change his tune or even for him to step down. What is not democratic is to call for his removal by a military coup, ala the long Turkish tradition of fucking democracy in the arse.

It'd be like if Democrats in the Bush-era called for a military coup because Bush violated civil rights with the Patriot Act. Sure he did, but even if you overthrew the elected American government because of that, you don't get to claim you acted in the defense of democracy.
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Re: (Turkey)Occupy Gezi crackdown spins out of control

Post by Ralin »

hongi wrote:Good results and works = what you think is a good result and what you think works. What about what other people think is a good result? e.g. the 50% of Turks who voted for Erdogan.
Is this going to be like that time when you went on about how we only think child molestation is bad because of our culture or some crap?
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