Is Black Pete Racist

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Is Black Pete Racist

Post by mr friendly guy »

2 articles here, first an old one from 2013 explaining the Black Pete tradition

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/0/24744499
Zwarte Piet: Is 'Black Pete' a racist Dutch custom?
By Karen Millington
BBC Reporter


Amsterdam - city of red-lights, legal highs, stag-dos and many less salacious pastimes has a visitor from Spain each November.

Unlike most tourists, he arrives in the port on a steamboat and then transfers to a horse. Tall, skinny and white, the visitor dresses in a long formal coat and is accompanied by helpers in strange outfits with costume pantaloons.

The rowdy group passes through the busy streets of Amsterdam throwing small, round cakes and sweets to children. The man in white is the Dutch St Nicholas, Sinterklaas.

But tourists caught up in the festival, may do a double-take when they see Sinterklaas' mischievous helpers. For when Dutch people dress up as Father Christmas' helper 'Black Pete', they blacken their faces, paint their lips red and don afro wigs.

The character is always at the butt of the joke, misunderstanding Sinterklaas' requests and acting as a jester for the crowds. He wears gold hoop earrings - traditionally a slave token.

Zwarte Piet, the literal translation being Black Pete, appears all over the Netherlands at Christmas time. Traditionally the role of Black Pete was to frighten children - if they were bad they would be beaten and carried off in a sack.

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Jerry King Luther Afriyie
We have a race problem and we will have to deal with it one way or another”

Jerry King Luther Afriyie
Zwarte Piet is Racism
But not everyone in the Netherlands wants to keep the tradition. The grassroots organisation, Zwarte Piet is Racism appeared in 2011 under the collective The Netherlands Will Get Better and is campaigning to evolve Black Pete into 'Pete'.

Jerry King Luther Afriyie, a Ghanaian-born Dutch citizen who is part of the collective, told the BBC: "For 150 years we have been confronted with this institutionalized racism and we are supposed to be living in the most tolerant and anti-racist country in the world. In the 21st Century there should be no room for racism, especially open racism."

The controversy of Black Pete reached a global stage in January, when a UN working group told the Dutch PM Mark Rutte they were looking into claims the Dutch custom was racist.

In a letter the group voiced its concerns saying: "The character and image of Black Pete perpetuates a stereotyped image of African people and people of African descent as second-class citizens, fostering an underlying sense of inferiority within Dutch society and stirring racial differences as well as racism."

However, in a letter defending the staging of a Sinterklaas festival in Amsterdam in 2013, the city's mayor EE Van der Laan said: "...the tradition is not in the least static. In the past 50 years, Zwarte Piet was no longer depicted as an ogre for educational ends. He evolved from being the stereotypical subservient 'black slave' into a cheerful 'clown'"

'Colonialism and slavery'
The Sinterklaas festival dates back to the 1600s. There are a number of explanations as to why Sinterklaas suddenly appeared with Black Pete in the 1800s, but it did coincide with the Dutch Empire's involvement in the slave trade.

Mr Afriyie told the BBC: "Zwarte Piet is a figure based on the stereotypical depiction of black people in the 19th Century. His appearance is a direct reference to the Dutch past of colonialism and slavery."

Some believe Black Pete might have been introduced to the Netherlands by an Italian immigrant in 1828. Peter Bergsma, director of Amsterdam's Translator House told the BBC: "Dominico Arata organised a party where, as they say here, a child-loving bishop handed out sweets and he was followed by a servant and that was Black Pete and he had a big basket full of presents."

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I think a lot of people in favour of Zwarte Piet feel so upset because they don't like being called racist when it is not the case”

Vincent ter Beek
Arnhem, the Netherlands
Twenty years later the character of Black Pete appeared in a children's book, and his place was cemented in Dutch culture.

The character's name has changed over time, 61-year-old Mr Bergsma recalls: "My grandparents... did not speak about Black Pete like I did when I was little, but they spoke about 'Peter man-servant'.

"You didn't even think about discrimination at that time, but of course society has changed."

While campaigns to ban Black Pete in the Netherlands have been relatively small, a petition set up by two publicists to save him received more than two million likes in a few days on Facebook. Quite an achievement considering the Netherlands has a population of 16 million.

Some of those signing the petition to save Black Pete feel like Vincent ter Beek, a Dutch journalist from Arnhem.

"I cannot help thinking that everybody who feels offended wants to feel offended - it's their choice. There is nobody at all who has any racist motive, not even latent racist motive, with the festival, it's a children's thing.

"I think a lot of people in favour of Zwarte Piet feel so upset because they don't like being called racist when it is not the case," the 36-year-old told the BBC.

Mayor of Amsterdam EE Van der Laan continued in his open letter written in defence of the city council's decision to stage the festival: "The nature of the question of revising a national tradition means it is a question that should be put to the nation, to society. In this light, the current large-scale discussion of the matter is exactly what should be happening."

Others are also in favour of an open debate. Dutch academic Dr Philomena Essed, professor of critical race, gender and leadership studies at Antioch University, told the BBC: "The discussion shouldn't be narrowed down to for or against Zwarte Piet.

"For Zwarte Piet is more, it symbolises the racism. People are very reluctant to talk about racism in the Netherlands, both the dominant group -they feel offended - and the dominated groups who feel intimidated more and more."

Dutch MP Martin Bosma of Geert Wilders' Freedom Party (PVV) feels differently. He told the BBC: "It is not about Zwarte Piet, it is about their hatred against the West.

"They want us to feel guilty for who we are. Muslims and other non-western immigrants, however, need to be worshipped.

"Leftists are waging a cultural war against our traditional values."

A new tradition
But is this really a tradition from a colonial past?

Some Dutch claim Black Pete is black from the soot in the chimneys he climbs down to deliver presents to children; whereas campaigners for change claim it is not only the blackened face that causes offense.

Mr Afriyie thinks the distinction is simple.

"Zwarte Piet each year exposes the Dutch hypocrisy. We are not as tolerant as we tell the world we are. We have a race problem and we will have to deal with it one way or another," he says.

However, Mr Bergsma feels Dutch society has moved on and people are sophisticated enough to know the tradition is not meant to cause offence.

"Originally in the beginning I myself too would have said, lets not exaggerate this, its been a tradition for years. And maybe even if it started in a discriminatory way, its not like that anymore," he explains.

"But then when I see the nationalist feelings that black Pete has descended to now, I think that is scary too," he added.

Dr Essed thinks ignorance is partly to blame but a solution can be found.

"Many wouldn't be aware of colonial history, as it is not in the school books... it is not a significant part of teaching in the Netherlands. So you can't blame people, they have very little clue."

"The children are not born with the story, it is told to them at one point. And you can tell any story to children."
And now the current article which drew my attention to this issue

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38089469
Dutch race hate row engulfs presenter Sylvana Simons
By Anna Holligan
BBC News, The Hague


The images of a black Dutch TV presenter's face super-imposed on the hanged bodies of victims of a lynching are too nauseating to look at. And yet a video featuring the mocked-up pictures has been widely circulated online here.
Sylvana Simons has for years been a familiar presence on Dutch TV and radio, and the attack on her has highlighted a debate bubbling inside the Netherlands far removed from its reputation as a liberal tolerant nation.
A former presenter on talent show Dancing with the Stars, she recently joined the political party "Denk" (Think) and is running in the next election.
But it was her criticism of the traditional festive character known as Black Pete that unleashed a backlash of death-threats and misogynistic, racist abuse, which quickly escalated from unpleasant to outright shocking.
The video that circulated online also featured a song entitled "Oh Sylvana" including the lines "why don't you pack your bags... why don't you go and emigrate". But the song-writers insist it was a party anthem about a Russian woman and nothing to do with Sylvana Simons.
The self-proclaimed creator of the video has now handed himself in to police, but the sentiment among a small but significant section of society appears to be - if you question our traditions then you are fair game.
When a football show host suggested that Sylvana was "running around proud as a monkey", a colleague suggested he had meant to use the phrase "proud as a peacock". But he was adamant: "No, she doesn't look like a peacock." Then a famous radio presenter played gorilla grunts on air and said "be quiet, Sylvana".
Sensitive issue
For many Dutch people Black Pete is an innocent children's character, a sidekick to St Nicholas, steeped in nostalgia and annual festivities that culminate on 5 December. For others he is an offensive caricature that perpetuates racist stereotypes that hark back to slavery.

The debate about Black Pete encapsulates a much broader anxiety felt by those afraid of the changing nature of their nation.
Read more about Black Pete in the Netherlands
Calling time on Black Pete fun in the Netherlands
Black Pete and the Dutch debate over racism
Clashes erupt at Black Pete parade
For Sandra Violin, whose son dressed up as Black Pete at a parade in The Hague, it is a tradition purely for children.
"He's so proud to dress up like this. Every kid wants to be Black Pete. He's just funny and gives out candy. People shouldn't turn it into something negative."
But Humberto Tan, an eminent Dutch-Surinamese presenter of one of this country's most popular late-night talk shows, disagrees. "It's created a chasm and I despise chasms."

"I'm for the changing of Black Pete. But when you say that, people feel as though you're attacking them, their country, their childhood."
Humberto Tan says he has been subjected to racist comments and even death threats.
"It's the politicians' fault too. Our prime minister said 'Black Pete is Black Pete'. They should be giving us moral leadership but they're afraid it will cost them votes."
Geert Wilders has become one of the Netherlands' most popular politicians, and he has positioned himself as protector of Dutch culture.
Wilders brands hate-speech trial 'charade'
An anti-immigration, anti-Islam populist, he is currently on trial accused of hate speech. In court on Wednesday, he gave an impassioned speech and argued it was unacceptable for the Dutch to be considered racist for wanting Black Pete "to remain black".

The best thing for Ms Simons, he tweeted, would be protection from herself and for her political party to be disbanded.
Quinsy Gario was arrested in 2014 for staging a silent protest at a Black Pete parade and believes the hate directed towards Sylvana Simons is nothing new. Only the tools of intimidation are evolving.
"There is a history of black politicians being harassed and told to shut up," he says.
"Everything that deviates from 'white behaviour' is seen as threatening and something that needs to be expunged in the most vicious wording possible.
"The difference with the US or Britain is that these hate groups have until now been clandestine, in the Netherlands white supremacist hate has always been open and collective."
Sylvana Simons was 18 months old when her family moved from the former Dutch colony of Suriname in Latin America to the Netherlands.

While she has no memory of her country of birth and considers herself Dutch, she told Trouw newspaper: "I notice there is a limit to my Dutch citizenship if I express an opinion that deviates from the norm."
Appearing on a talk show this week, she told of how her children had seen the sickening video images of her head in a noose on social media. Her family had received threats, she said, and one person on Instagram had threatened to burn her alive.
She has vowed to fight back by tackling racism through her political party.
But Humberto Tan is worried about where the debate is heading.
"Lynching from a tree, slavery in the US? I fear the pinnacle hasn't been reached yet. I'm afraid of the tone of the discussions.
"People are enraged on both sides. We need to stay cool in our heads and warm in our hearts."
The alternative, he says, does not bear thinking about.
Even if the tradition is not racist, some of its supporters clearly are. I think there is a context thing which determines whether its racist. For example, if Black face characters were always awesome or the Mary Sues, instead of a laughing stock, I don't think we would have the same issue. I will post more when I have time and given a bit of thought on the issue, although as I said, it depends on context.

EDIT - I advise people to click on the link and look at the pictures
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

Post by Elheru Aran »

The original concept of Black Pete as a black-skinned imp of some sort, similar to the more Germanic Krampus, isn't racist.

The modern concept, a 'scary black man' with classic vaudeville blackface trappings, is at the very least borderline racist.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

Post by FTeik »

Unlike the Germanic pre-christian Krampus (making it unlikely, that those who thought him up ever had contact with people with darker skin) the "Zwarte Piet" was introduced in the 19th century so there might have been a racist element. On the other hand the fact of the "Zwarte Piet" being a dark figure might be, because he is the one who climbs through peoples chimneys to distribute sweets. However I have to agree with Elheru Aran, that his presentation as "scary black man" is racist. Gert Wilders and cohorts would probably protest loudly, if that were to change.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

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The color black should be banned just to be safe...
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

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mr friendly guy wrote: For example, if Black face characters were always awesome or the Mary Sues, instead of a laughing stock, I don't think we would have the same issue.
Unfortunately that's not entirely true. Earlier this year a mother dressed her son up in black face because the child loved the football player in question- who happened to be black- and people got upset. The kid was literally not seeing race, just seeing a man he admired and wanted to be and it still caused an uproar. Hell if the kid had stayed white and just gone in dreadlocks some people would be upset.

I agree the context should matter. Hero worship is probably the furthest thing from racism you can get but for some people... they're just looking to be upset.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

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Kojiro wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote: For example, if Black face characters were always awesome or the Mary Sues, instead of a laughing stock, I don't think we would have the same issue.
Unfortunately that's not entirely true. Earlier this year a mother dressed her son up in black face because the child loved the football player in question- who happened to be black- and people got upset. The kid was literally not seeing race, just seeing a man he admired and wanted to be and it still caused an uproar. Hell if the kid had stayed white and just gone in dreadlocks some people would be upset.

I agree the context should matter. Hero worship is probably the furthest thing from racism you can get but for some people... they're just looking to be upset.
Since I live in Western Australia I am aware of that story. Although the history of blackface being used in a derogatory fashion could get people overly cautious. If she did this, and historically blackface wasn't used to make fun of black people, I suspect we wouldn't get the same outrage over this hero worship. Its the historical baggage and all that which tips this one over.

I wouldn't call this necessarily racist, but I know lots of right wing retards would be too stupid to tell the difference between this hero worship and actually dressing up as a black person to make fun of them. They would just look at the black make up and then accuse their opponents of being selective next time Sam Newman (since we're on the topic of AFL) decides to don black face and pretend to be another Indigenous player.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

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This topic has got me thinking. Would this be considered racist?

http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/ ... 023808.jpg

Its a Chinese actor in black face to play the historical character Bao Zheng. Bao's exploits have been heavily romanticised, but generally justice Bao was supposed to be an incorruptible civil servant during the Song dynasty. I have heard numerous theories as to why he has been portrayed as black face from legends that he was born with darker skin *, or that Chinese opera would have actors paint their faces in various colours to denote their role, with black being the intimidating guy (since people would view the actors from far away it was easier to follow if the actors had their face painted) to a whole host of other reasons.

His face is blacked up, but he is not pretending to be an African. He is supposed to be a Chinese civil servant who some reason has darker skin. Moreover Bao Zheng is the goddamn hero and numerous Chinese dramas have him as a character and portrayed in a positive light. **

* fun fact, I am trying to think of conditions which might cause darker skin, and they can include chronic haemochromatosis (which occurs in caucasians and not Asians) or addison's disease (which will manifest the darker skin and hyperpigmentation after the person has it for a while, and certainly not at birth), so I really got nothing to why this legend would come up.

** One of the latest drama's I watched released this year had him as a main character (the leader of the heroes), but they didn't black him up. They just got everyone to refer to him as Black Face Bao.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

Post by Elheru Aran »

mr friendly guy wrote:This topic has got me thinking. Would this be considered racist?

http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/ ... 023808.jpg

Its a Chinese actor in black face to play the historical character Bao Zheng. Bao's exploits have been heavily romanticised, but generally justice Bao was supposed to be an incorruptible civil servant during the Song dynasty. I have heard numerous theories as to why he has been portrayed as black face from legends that he was born with darker skin *, or that Chinese opera would have actors paint their faces in various colours to denote their role, with black being the intimidating guy (since people would view the actors from far away it was easier to follow if the actors had their face painted) to a whole host of other reasons.

His face is blacked up, but he is not pretending to be an African. He is supposed to be a Chinese civil servant who some reason has darker skin. Moreover Bao Zheng is the goddamn hero and numerous Chinese dramas have him as a character and portrayed in a positive light. **

* fun fact, I am trying to think of conditions which might cause darker skin, and they can include chronic haemochromatosis (which occurs in caucasians and not Asians) or addison's disease (which will manifest the darker skin and hyperpigmentation after the person has it for a while, and certainly not at birth), so I really got nothing to why this legend would come up.

** One of the latest drama's I watched released this year had him as a main character (the leader of the heroes), but they didn't black him up. They just got everyone to refer to him as Black Face Bao.
In that *specific* context: no, it's not racist. It's a form of traditional dramatic convention within Chinese culture.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

Post by Elheru Aran »

Ghetto Edit:

However, I don't think that blackface in Western culture *doesn't* carry racist connonations, in fact I believe it is quite inescapable. There's simply too much history of oppression and discrimination and mockery of people of African descent for it to pass by without comment.

The kid wearing blackface for a Halloween costume? Honest mistake on the kid's part. A grown-up putting on brown/blackface and wearing a stereotypical Hispanic or "hip-hop", whatever, costume? Not cool.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

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Essentially "blackface" isn't inherently racist, however in the western world it does carry a strong racist implication due to how it was used in the past and this isn't just SJW being oversensitive like some people want to dissmiss it as it's honest to God fact just look at some of the art using blackface as late as the 1950s or 1960s and there's a really strong and obvious racist message being depicted there.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

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Lord Revan wrote:Essentially "blackface" isn't inherently racist, however in the western world it does carry a strong racist implication due to how it was used in the past and this isn't just SJW being oversensitive like some people want to dissmiss it as it's honest to God fact just look at some of the art using blackface as late as the 1950s or 1960s and there's a really strong and obvious racist message being depicted there.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

In the case of a formerly colonizer/imperialist Western European nation, perhaps the danger of something having racist roots or evolving to become racist due to more recent developments is always present...

If it was something like the Chinese example though, it probably isn't racist. Japanese ganguro isn't racist-based, I think.

I think those pissed at the racism of blackface and those sensitive towards the issue are coming from understandable grounds and outrage shouldn't really be met with automatic derision, it should be considered and studied and the specifics of the circumstances behind that particular act of using face-coloring should be used to determine whether or not there is racism involved.

At the same time non-racist instances should be conveyed to people.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

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I grew up with the tradition and I don't think it's racist at all. As a child we were always thaught he's black because of the chimney soot. Hell, I even loved those guys because they were the always happy helpers who gave candy and toys. Do you really think a child cares a rats ass what the giver of candy and toys looks like?

I've had fond memories of the tradition and frankly all this political bullshit of extreme political correctness around it lately gets me disgusted and angry. How angry adults try to ruin a party for kids.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

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The thing is, I can accept that it could be a white man whose face is blackened because of the chimney soot, but why the hell do the Dutch wear afro wigs? Isn't this supposed to be a stereotypical African hairstyle (or at least since the 1960s, although the first use I could find of it was in the 1860s, again waay before this Black Pete custom started). His hair could be blackened, but I doubt his hairstyle changes from soot to match a hairstyle which was popular among some people of African descent in the 60s and 70s.

Or why do they wear gold hoop earings? I have very little fashion sense, but a quick google search also reiterates what the BBC article talks about, the association of gold hoop earrings with that with slavery.

It seems disconcerting to say the least. And this is from a guy who has argued against SJWs.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

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mr friendly guy wrote:The thing is, I can accept that it could be a white man whose face is blackened because of the chimney soot, but why the hell do the Dutch wear afro wigs? Isn't this supposed to be a stereotypical African hairstyle (or at least since the 1960s, although the first use I could find of it was in the 1860s, again waay before this Black Pete custom started). His hair could be blackened, but I doubt his hairstyle changes from soot to match a hairstyle which was popular among some people of African descent in the 60s and 70s.

Or why do they wear gold hoop earings? I have very little fashion sense, but a quick google search also reiterates what the BBC article talks about, the association of gold hoop earrings with that with slavery.

It seems disconcerting to say the least. And this is from a guy who has argued against SJWs.
Well the connection from slavery is that the Black Petes were former slaves rescued by Sinterklaas. They help Sinterklaas on on their own account.

There are some variants on the tradition and it evolved over the years. However, it's been polarizing a lot over the past years. Especially in Holland but the last years it's getting worse in Belgium too. The thing is, people were already giving compromises (black soot Petes instead of fully black Petes, or even stupid shit like multicolored blue, green, yellow... Petes) but for the die -hard opponents it is never enough. Offcourse people get emotional and cling to the tradition of which they had fond childhood memories of.
Sure, some people may get racist ("those dirty immegrants want to take our traditions away") but guess what, there's scum in the opposing camp too (eg cases of anti-black Pete activists using violence which the BBC failed to mention).

Seriously, I can think of a lot more harmful traditions that could use some compromise.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

Post by Elheru Aran »

Like I said, I don't have much issue with the Black Pete character as originally conceived (and I will admit to being wrong about the Krampus association, that's apparently not related to Black Pete specifically). Tone down the modern-day racial aspects like the Afro wigs and it'd be less of a problem for me, but I don't have a huge problem with it period honestly, and I find liberal approaches like multi-coloured Petes to be silly as well. Acknowledge the tradition, perhaps minimize some of the aspects which could be interpreted in an offensive way, but don't censor it entirely just to appease people.

Now things like the "Black and White Minstrel Show", that's far more blatant and IMO unfunny.
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Re: Is Black Pete Racist

Post by Shinn Langley Soryu »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:In the case of a formerly colonizer/imperialist Western European nation, perhaps the danger of something having racist roots or evolving to become racist due to more recent developments is always present...

If it was something like the Chinese example though, it probably isn't racist. Japanese ganguro isn't racist-based, I think.
Japan certainly has its own issues regarding race, but the ganguro subculture isn't one of them. It actually started out in the 1990s as a rebellion against traditional Japanese concepts of beauty, but the fad largely petered out by the mid-2000s (incidentally, replaced by a massive swing back towards the old ideal of pale skin); you'll still see quite a few girls with bleached hair, garish makeup, and spray tans walking around the major cities, though.
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Phantasee: Don't be a dick.
Stofsk: What are you, his mother?
The Yosemite Bear: Obviously, which means that he's grounded, and that she needs to go back to sucking Mr. Coffee's cock.

"d-did... did this thread just turn into Thanas/PeZook slash fiction?" - Ilya Muromets[/size]
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