91-year-old woman charged over 260,000 Auschwitz deaths

[Borgholio]

Remember when that clerk was charged with 300,000 counts of accessory to murder simply for working at a death camp? Here's another one. A 91 year old woman is being charged with 260,000 counts due to being a radio operator at Auschwitz. But there's a twist to this one.

She may be tried as a minor.

It's not stated in this article, but other news publications online are saying she may be charged as a minor due to being under 21 at the time she worked there. If true, that would make this an especially bizarre case.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... eaths.html

A 91-year-old woman in Germany has been charged as an accessory to the murder of 260,000 people at Auschwitz.

The woman, who has not been named under German privacy laws, is accused of having served as a member of the SS at the concentration camp.

The case is the latest in a series of attempts by Germany prosecutors to bring surviving Holocaust perpetrators to justice while there is still time.

Former Nazi death camp officer Oskar Groening awaits the beginning of his trialFormer Nazi death camp officer Oskar Groening awaits the beginning of his trial Photo: Julian Stratenschulte/AFP

It comes after Oskar Gröning, the “bookkeeper of Auschwitz”, was sentenced to four years in prison earlier this year for serving as an SS guard at the camp.

The 91-year-old woman, a resident of Schleswig-Holstein, is accused of having been an SS radio operator at Auschwitz from April to July 1944.

Although her involvement in the mass killings at the camp may have been peripheral as a female member of the SS, prosecutors argue she can be held accountable because she helped the camp function.

More than 1 million people were systematically murdered at Auschwitz, the majority of them Jewish.

Germany was long accused of not doing enough to bring Holocaust perpetrators to justice.

Of the 6,500 former SS members who served at Auschwitz and survived the war, only 50 have been convicted in Germany.

German courts long maintained that only the senior Nazi leadership could be held responsible for the crimes of the Holocaust.

John Demjanjuk Nazi war criminal John Demjanjuk dies aged 91Death camp guard John Demjanjuk Photo: EPA

But that changed in 2011 when John Demnjanjuk, a Soviet prisoner-of-war who volunteered as an SS guard, was found guilty of being an accessory to the murder of 27,900 people at the Sobibor concentration camp.

Since then, prosecutors have been scrambling to bring surviving concentration camp staff to justice.

A court must now decide whether to bring the case against the 91-year-old woman to trial.

Several prosecutions have collapsed after the elderly defendants were ruled too unwell to stand trial. Some have even died before their cases could be brought to court.

There is currently no indication the 91-year-old woman is unfit to stand trial, Heinz Döllel, a spokesman for prosecutors, told reporters.

A decision on the case is not expected until next year.

[Thanas]

I don't get this. She is 91 years old and will be dead in a few years. Why waste resources on a trial when a) our judicial system is already overworked and b) there is no indication that she is still a Nazi and c) she was underage at the time?

[Borgholio]

IIRC, German courts have been under flak for not being more aggressive in hunting down and prosecuting potential war criminals. I think they're taking it a bit too far, what with going after clerks and radio operators who, as you say, will be dead in a few years anyways.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah. Just put her in protective custody and wait. If you want to 'punish' her, I don't know, take away her pension, savings, or something. IMO, frankly the whole thing with charging people tangentially related to the Holocaust with a good chunk of the killings-- which would basically have been physically impossible for them to actually commit-- is going a tad overboard. Create a new category of crime, something along the lines of 'willingly aiding and abetting and being part of the Nazi regime' instead. Anybody left from that time is going to be old as fuck; putting them through months of trials and publicity only for them to die a few years later isn't going to do much of anything.

Seriously, even 'accessory to' is stretching it. If you can find a paper somewhere that's in her handwriting where she notes down a command from the Nazi headquarters to execute so many prisoners, and you can confirm that she delivered it and said prisoners were hitherfore executed, that's arguably accessory... but does any such evidence actually exist?

Trying her as a minor is also just absurd. She's 91 for heavens' sake. And beyond that-- you take on an adult job and responsibilities, even if you're a minor, you should be tried as an adult.

[Iroscato]

This and the earlier case feels like a purely bureaucratic decision. Thanas nails it - this is a showy waste of time and resources.

[TheFeniX]

you take on an adult job and responsibilities, even if you're a minor, you should be tried as an adult.

That doesn't pan. Laws concerning minors exist because we generalize that <x age means you aren't capable of that responsibility due to development, maturity, etc. We (at least in the US court system, I have to assume Germany does the same thing) hold a hearing to determine if a specific minor is able to understand the consequences of their actions, thereby having an adult understanding of said consequences, and charge them accordingly.

Since the crime happened 40 years before I was even born, it's unlikely any evidence exists that proves she could fully understand the consequences of whatever she was doing, so they have to default to trying her as a minor. That's not a bad thing.

[Dominus Atheos]

And beyond that-- you take on an adult job and responsibilities, even if you're a minor, you should be tried as an adult.

Uh, what? How do you think being tried as a minor works? If a person is under voting age/age of majority, the State clearly considers them less than capable of making good decisions, so the State should be required to take that into consideration when charging them for (making the decision to) commit a crime.

[Elheru Aran]

I should be a little more clear. I do understand how trial as a minor works. I think that considering the specific situation she was in, it's justifiable to try her as an adult (especially as she's one now; trying to put her... childhood on trial is absurd). She was old enough to join a paramilitary organization (the SS), and once you're a member of the military, to all intents and purposes you are considered more or less an adult (IIRC).

If I am wrong on those counts, I withdraw the notion, although I maintain that it's still absurd to try her as a minor.

[Dominus Atheos]

Child soldiers are a thing, and regardless of this particular case (she was 20, at a time when the age of majority was apparently 21), child soldiers should definitely not be considered adults.

[TheFeniX]

You don't know the circumstances of her "employment:" was it under duress? What were her responsibilities as a radio operator? What messages did she relay? Did she have any idea what was going on other than working in a "prison camp." I don't know, could be likely she knew exactly what was going on and didn't care/wanted every death to happen. But without evidence, "more or less" doesn't cut it.

That said, judging from my poor math, she would have been right at 21 when Auschwitz was shut down. So, kind of skirting the "minor" title, but dems the breaks.

[K. A. Pital]

Once again - the article does not say why or how the woman joined the SS. Did she join voluntarily? If so, being a member of a criminal organization (and not its exempt ceremonial units) is enough grounds to launch an investigation. If evidence of real war crimes or crimes against humanity is found, then it is up to the court.

If she has not been a fan of Nazi policies and was not a voluntary SS member (very unlikely, given the circumstances), then sure, she may be innocent.

[Enigma]

What's the purpose of punishing geriatrics who are on the periphery of running the camps? Unless there is still SS officers still alive, maybe it is time to move on? What is next? Exhume the bodies of the officers who escaped being tried and hold a mock trial before being found guilty? Then put the remains before a firing squad?

This is getting silly. Time to move on, folks. Time to move on.

[Joun_Lord]

What's the purpose of punishing geriatrics who are on the periphery of running the camps? Unless there is still SS officers still alive, maybe it is time to move on? What is next? Exhume the bodies of the officers who escaped being tried and hold a mock trial before being found guilty? Then put the remains before a firing squad?

My guess is they are doing it because there are no SS officers still around (that we know about) and they need to do some feel good punish the Nazis thing before all the Nazis are gone. 10 years from now there probably won't be any living who worked at the death camps, probably a similar time frame for the end of the living of those who were stuffed in the camps.

The time is ending very quickly for Germany to show they were doing something about the Nazis, showing they are taking the grievances of the survivors still surviving seriously. Never mind that its an effort about 70 years too late, never mind that those being put on trial are old farts who were support staff, never mind the fact they didn't kill anyone and are arguably victims themselves (having been incredibly young people brainwashed into believing in the 3rd reichs bullshit, and never mind this doesn't punish anyone who needs punished as the American reason for incarceration and the Eurocommie reason of rehabilitation is absurd when they are nearly on deaths door and the crime they committed was 70 years ago, never mind all that because we got us some Nazis to parade around.

I freaking think Nazis were scum that deserved to be punished for their crimes but punishing a radio operator and an accountant for murder who didn't kill anybody and were only related to the murders by working in the same place and could not prevent or do anything to stop the killings? Just freaking absurd. Are they going to charge the janitor of Auschwitz if they can find him?

[Broomstick]

What's the purpose of punishing geriatrics who are on the periphery of running the camps?

Hatred and anger run deep.

This is getting silly. Time to move on, folks. Time to move on.

While personally I agree, I have met people who seem incapable of doing that.

Are they going to charge the janitor of Auschwitz if they can find him?

Yes.

[Thanas]

That said, judging from my poor math, she would have been right at 21 when Auschwitz was shut down. So, kind of skirting the "minor" title, but dems the breaks.

German law at that time had a "minor, but kinda adult" period between 18-21. You could join the army, but not have full citizenship rights. Kinda like the USA today differentiates between being able to join the military and getting full citizen rights (like being able to drink).

[TheHammer]

Even dumber than the Groening trial. Why seek to punish someone who had no power to change things, and took no direct part in the killing. Its all a fucking show. The original policy of only holding Senior Nazi officers accountable should have stayed the policy, except under extraordinary circumstances where you had a non-officer that you could prove was a willing and enthusiastic participant. Beyond that, a lot of people simply didn't have much of a choice, and this is more a quest for vengeance than justice.

[K. A. Pital]

Joining the SS was voluntary. Shut your fucking mouth about "no choice", fucker.

[Thanas]

In 1944 it wasn't for men. Not sure about women.

[K. A. Pital]

For such people there already exists an exemption, which would have stopped the trial from happening, and besides, it does not seem many women were conscripted - most were joining voluntary after already being members of some Nazi organizations beforehand (e.g. league of German girls). But I already said that it is important to ascertain the circumstances of how this person joined the SS.

There is nothing surprising in the late trials of women - many SS female "helpers" who were in reality Nazis and vicious murderers, were not tried as the Allies tried to go after men first and foremost. It would make sense that more female perpetrators escaped justice. Whether this is one such case, at this point I cannot say.

[Thanas]

She was a radio operator. Hard to see her on the same level as those female KZ guards that were actually hanged.

[K. A. Pital]

Given the situation, it is very hard to know just what exactly this SS-Helferin was doing. Only sending radio messages? Or helping with the overall camp operations - leading inmates from block to block, doing guard duties, maybe even sending them to gas chambers? Did she join SS voluntarily (seems to be the case, but needs to be known with certainty)? Why exactly was the process started, what is the evidence of crimes?

These are the important questions, not some silly tripe about how you cannot try old people or how SS members had no choice. This is not substantial and serves no purpose as it is obfuscating the truth of the matter in emotion.

If there is evidence of crimes, punish her if her health allows her to serve the punishment. If there are no crimes, let her go. But the accusations are serious and before I see the actual facts, I will wait with my sympathies to a former SS woman from Auschwitz who may not, in fact, be wrongly accused.

[Sea Skimmer]

In 1944 it wasn't for men. Not sure about women.

1942 is when the SS began taking conscripts, they were the majority of new recruits by 1943. Also large numbers of air force and naval personal were reassigned to the SS in 1943-1945. The SS didn't gain all those new divisions, and operate the death camps, and maintain all its other shit, through some mass surge of Ayran pride.

[Titan Uranus]

Ok, but what about women? It seems likely that they would have remained volunteers long after the men, but I cannot find good data for it, wikipedia claims that some female camp guards were conscripted,but it makes no mention of what time period. She was in between April and July 1944, and there is nothing specifically stating her willingness as far as I can tell.

[LaCroix]

A lot of women were conscripted and trained as Flak operators or radio operators from 1942/43 on. (Truppenhelferin/Troop helper). By 1944, basically every unmarried woman would be conscripted into either factory or military service.

Book quote: "World War II in Europe: An Encyclopedia"

These radio operators were not exactly soldiers, but auxilliaries, and would often get shuffled around to places with personal needs. They rarely were sent to the front, but the camps were seen as a relatively "safe" area, which meant that the use of female personal would be common.

tl;dr She might have wound up at camp.

[Flagg]

I'm all for trying Nazzies, but at this point: meh. I've given it a lot of thought since that Auschwitz guy thread and I think that especially as a citizen of a country that willfully and openly decided to give its war criminals and those who openly committed crimes against humanity from the last decade and a half or so a pass (not that the crimes are on the same level), I really have no moral authority to even comment on the matter in a "Fair prosecution", let alone a vigorous "Go get 'em all, I want mah Nazzie scalps!!!" Lt. Aldo Raine's manner.