Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

Post by ray245 »

A US writer have recently commented on the arrest and condemnation of a young Singapore teenager who created certain controversial video about the Singaporean society and attacks on Christianity.

His article can be found here:

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultur ... utube-star
The most winsome political dissident you’ve never heard of, Amos Yee, is a Singaporean, a YouTube personality, and an activist who takes his cause more seriously than he takes himself. He has hair like a haystack in late afternoon and the nervous timing of a standup nebbish. He curses as imaginatively as a Scotsman in an Iannucci script, and, despite his perfect vision, he wears glasses on camera, for style. He’s a humanist—a close student of street idiom and indie film—but he has a data wonk’s appreciation for comparative statistics and a wariness of received wisdom. On concerns such as gay rights, income inequality, and free speech, he’s outspoken on the right side of history. He is seventeen years old.

He is also, in his home of Singapore, an alleged criminal for what he’s said. On Friday, March 27th, Yee uploaded a video that criticized Lee Kuan Yew, the recently deceased founding father of postwar Singapore, and also took a swipe at organized Christianity. By the following Monday, after formal complaints from some fellow Singaporeans, Yee had been arrested under Section 298 of the country’s penal code, which forbids the uttering of words that might hurt the religious feelings of any person, and the Protection from Harassment Act, a recent law ostensibly set up to guard against cyberbullying. His blog, where he had posted an illustration of Lee and Margaret Thatcher in flagrante, was censored; it earned Yee an obscenity charge under Penal Code Section 292. He was released on a bail of twenty thousand Singapore dollars, and is currently awaiting hearings. He has been ordered not to post anything more online. If he’s found guilty, he could face a fine of five thousand Singapore dollars and three years in prison.

Previously, Yee’s targets had been overly pliant citizens, religious hypocrisy, governmental agitprop, and parents. His smart-alecky YouTube videos, which he began releasing a couple of years ago, were directed equally toward the Singaporean youth and a more international, American-style audience. It is easy to lose a lunch hour in such homemade productions as his exposition of Singaporean English and his review of “The Da Vinci Code.” Yee’s style is both manic and concinnate, confident and strangely self-aware. If most teen-agers deploy sarcasm and snark, he has a sense of higher-order irony—a pearl-like virtue in a society that tends to disdain intellectual risk.

Singapore today has a well-guarded culture of political deference. This year’s World Press Freedom Index, compiled by Reporters Without Borders, ranks Singapore a hundred and fifty-third out of a hundred and eighty countries, just below Russia. All seven domestic TV channels are under governmental control, and it is illegal to own a satellite dish. (Radio and print are similarly regulated.) As Yee points out, the country’s rampant inequality—by some measures, the highest in the developed world—is a red flag given its tax levels and unemployment. Singapore may sparkle with clean streets and the kind of airport where you hope for a long layover. On rights, though, it’s stunningly retrograde. Homosexual acts between men are illegal, and can lead to two years in prison. The country famously uses caning to punish various nonviolent infractions, such as overstaying a visa. Oppositions to these policies are easily suppressed in a small place with stringent policing and, until the Internet, hardly any outlets where free thought could spread.

Yee’s arrest doesn’t just underscore his complaints about Singapore’s backwardness on rights and freedom. It shows the country’s dire need for cultural education through intelligent dissent. In the days after Yee’s arrest, a slew of local celebrities, including three Singaporean starlet types, were interviewed about his videos on national TV. In sequences depressing to watch, they all sided with the state. “If you say that, ‘Oh, people can say whatever they want, all the time,’ then what about those people who are listening?” Joshua Tan, a young actor, said. Well, what about them? The suggestion that citizens should withhold political criticism for fear of offense is preposterous—far more embarrassing to Singapore than any videos by Yee could be.

The citizens of developed nations in the twenty-first century should not need to be told that free expression is a basic attribute of political health. It’s part of Yee’s precocity to realize that a population molded into sheeplike complaisance is ideologically vulnerable. If his opinions sometimes tend toward the extremes (in a more recent video, he urges young people to drop out of school, the better not to, you know, go to learn the words of fools), his goal seems to be to unsettle the existing Singaporean power structure enough that young people have no choice but to broaden their expectations. His flamboyant thought and language is part of the best tradition of dissension, from Voltaire to the Velvet Revolution, and it accrues to creative fields beyond politics. Yee is something of a cinematic prodigy, having snagged two top prizes in a Singaporean festival for a hilarious short he made at thirteen, in his bedroom. My own favorite of his productions is a review of “Boyhood,” a movie that—he spares no imagery in telling us—blew him away.

Certain of the praiseful sentences that Yee sends toward Linklater’s film are gibberish. But a number of his basic observations are well-judged, and even the squawks of analytical nonsense are endearing: most of us in the verbal professions went through periods of blowing large amounts of wind through the instrument, trying to understand how the music works. (Some of us, maybe, never really outgrew that age.) For older people, Yee’s review offers a welcome reminder of those times at fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, when the world of mature self-expression was fresh and every art work seemed in need of overwrought endorsement.

If anything, Yee has all the hallmarks of a green and thriving mind; he is exactly the kind of person you would one day want reviewing your books, making your movies, maybe even running your country. Americans, who enjoy the benefits of free media, have a responsibility to take him more seriously than they take the government that has tried to quiet him for thinking freely in the public sphere. And those of us in the Fourth Estate have a duty to spread word of his ridiculous charges. If people like Amos Yee end up the custodians of our profession, the future of countries like Singapore can be brighter than their past.
What troubles me is some Singaporeans' response to Heller's criticism. Especially in the form of this piece of satire.

http://www.allsingaporestuff.com/articl ... g-amos-yee
Dear Mr Heller:

I am a Singapore citizen writing from a small backwaters town in Singapore. I would like to thank you for your recent piece on the New Yorker, entitled "Amos Yee: YouTube Star, Teen-Ager, Dissident" It was a very enlightening article and caused the scales to fall from my eyes and to view my homeland Singapore in a new light.

First, I would like to express my immense gratitude that the White Man's Burden, which I thought was gone with the end of colonialism, is still very much alive. As an Asian Chinese brainwashed by Confucianism, I was unable to see the self-evident virtue and superiority of Western ways such as American-style democracy. I now realize that the true yardstick of a country's maturity is how closely it adheres to American culture. We Singaporeans should emulate your country's culture of democratic bipartisanship , so as to achieve happiness progress and prosperity in our young nation.

Your words show that you have an intimate understanding of Singapore and care very much for the welfare of Singaporeans. While others might accuse you of "imperialism", I know that you are only discharging the sacred responsibility of telling us how to govern our country because as an American courageously carrying the White Man's Burden, you know what is best for us unenlightened Singaporeans.

I would also like to thank you for helping me to see the term "humanist" in reference to the artistic work of Amos Yee:

He’s a humanist—a close student of street idiom and indie film—but he has a data wonk’s appreciation for comparative statistics and a wariness of received wisdom. On concerns such as gay rights, income inequality, and free speech, he’s outspoken on the right side of history. He is seventeen years old.

According to my limited Singaporean understanding, humanism is a philosophical position which emphasizes the value of human beings, reason and empirical evidence. I did not know that humanism includes the use of profanity to mock the deceased and to insult people's religious faith. Saying harsh things about someone's religion to incite him to anger is a fundamental human right to free speech. What a beautiful idea. As human beings, we have free will which we can use to express ourselves by deliberately offending people. Thank you for helping us Singaporeans see this!

I found myself nodding in agreement as I read your characterization of Amos Yee as having "a sense of higher-order irony—a pearl-like virtue in a society that tends to disdain intellectual risk." Your words have deeply penetrated my mind and the brainwashing of my Government is now in the process of being undone. I now realize that it is virtuous to release a video filled with profanity and reductionist slogans, to describe the nation's mourning of Mr Lee Kuan Yew's death as "necrophilia" and fellatio. It doesn't matter that Lee was not yet properly buried and that he was deeply and universally respected by Singaporeans. The right to inject vulgarity and venom into the public discourse transcends petty cultural standards of decency and respect.

It is a noble intellectual risk to publicly challenge a grieving Prime Minister to sue with an eloquent "Come at me, Motherfucker." And a graphic cartoon which depicts Singapore's Founding Father and Margaret Thatcher engaged in a sexual act could very well be the kind of "higher-order irony" which will really benefit Singapore's intellectual and cultural progress. Some people may say that this type of "Freedom of Speech" is permissible in America but undesirable in Singapore. But I have become a subscriber to American exceptionalism. Anything which comes from America has got to be exceptional and ought to be imported wholesale into our country.

I would also like to express my profound gratitude for highlighting the true colours of my country's "rampant inequality" to the world. Our prisons are flooded with gays serving two year sentences for homosexuality. Caning people to prevent them from overstaying a visa is a barbaric practice. I should write to the Immigrant and Checkpoint Authority to suggest that they emulate how the USA deals with illegal immigrants. Who cares if our limited infrastructure is overwhelmed and if our taxpayers are taken to the cleaners? Human rights are more important! We can learn from the United States and build camps to detain the women and children of illegal immigrants so as to shower them with an abundance of human rights.

You are correct to note that prior to the Internet, there were "hardly any outlets where free thought could spread". From 1965 to the internet era in the late 1990s, Singapore was a nation of silent, mindless drones and nobody was able to express critical opinions against the Government till they got access to the web. But some historically-inclined people may ask: what about the numerous Opposition parties - the Barisan Sosialis, the Workers Party, the Singapore Democratic Party, etc. who were able to organize themselves to campaign against Government policies? What about Chiam See Tong, Joshua Benjamin Jeyaretnam, Chee Soon Juan and company before there was any internet? What about the strong public backlash in 1983 which caused the Government to rethink its controversial Graduate Mothers Scheme? What about Catherine Lim, whose critical essay was published in the supposedly "Government controlled" Straits Times in 1994, which thoroughly provoked a robust reply from the then-Prime Minister Mr. Goh Chok Tong? Mr Heller, I am sure you know who all these people are. But perhaps from the viewpoint of American exceptionalism, all these examples do not measure up to American standards of "free thought". We Singaporeans must strive to measure up to these standards.

In your article, you wrote: "Yee’s arrest doesn’t just underscore his complaints about Singapore’s backwardness on rights and freedom. It shows the country’s dire need for cultural education through intelligent dissent." Thank you for reminding us how backward we are. Unlike your country, Singapore does not profess the right to spy on our neighbours by eavesdropping on their leaders' phones. Our President Tony Tan does not have the right to use unmanned drones to kill suspected terrorists. Our cops do not have the freedom to shoot and choke people or shoot them in the back as they try to flee. We do not have the right to detain people in concentration camps outside our country's territorial boundaries. Our Singapore Armed Forces do not have the freedom to conduct unilateral invasions or military operations. These are the rights and freedom that a small nation like Singapore would probably never attain. But still we must still look to the US as a shining beacon whose light we should follow.

Thank you for pointing out that we Singaporeans are "a population molded into sheeplike complaisance". I guess that even though 40% of our nation's electorate did not vote for the Government in the last election and that Singaporeans can - and very often do - express critical opinions of the Government on social media, there is still a long way for us to go before we become a nation of true freedom like the United States, where the blind can buy guns and people are free to express their opinions by burning the nation's flag, picketing the funerals of dead soldiers (with signs that read "God Hates You" and "Thank God For Dead Soldiers") and joining a party espousing Nazi ideas.

Most importantly, I am very appreciative of your endorsement of Amos Yee as a future leader of Singapore:

If anything, Yee has all the hallmarks of a green and thriving mind; he is exactly the kind of person you would one day want reviewing your books, making your movies, maybe even running your country. Americans, who enjoy the benefits of free media, have a responsibility to take him more seriously than they take the government that has tried to quiet him for thinking freely in the public sphere. And those of us in the Fourth Estate have a duty to spread word of his ridiculous charges. If people like Amos Yee end up the custodians of our profession, the future of countries like Singapore can be brighter than their past.

Mr. Heller, even though your suggestion that Amos Yee should lead Singapore would certainly be met with derisive laughter from Singaporeans from all walks of life, it is because most Singaporeans are deluded. I now understand that True Democracy is not measured by what the people of Singapore want. It is about how what Americans think Singaporeans should want. There must be some kind of mistake that the great dictator Lee Kuan Yew's political party has been voted into power in every General Election since 1959. The only plausible explanation is that we Singaporeans are unable to think for ourselves and need American newspapers which are non-ideological, objective and owned by wealthy men who are passionately concerned about truth to help us to think how we can make our country brighter.

Mr. Heller, on behalf of my fellow Singaporeans: Thank You. Where would we be without you?

- More at AllSingaporeStuff.com http://www.allsingaporestuff.com/articl ... g-amos-yee
FB: http://fb.com/allsgstuff

What troubles me is the attempt to characterise freedom of speech as a western value, especially one that is American. Especially in regards to the notion that religion is something that should not be touched by the freedom of speech, especially one that should not be mocked.

In light of the recent Charlie Hebdo's attacks, it seems that there is an interpretation about freedom of speech in "Asia" that argued that religion is an institution that cannot be touched. By treating the issue of freedom of speech as some sort of mere "western" value, it becomes easier for "Asian" societies to effectively argue against the idea of it being a form of human right.

Any further comments you guys have to share would be welcomed.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

I'm struggling to feel surprised by the rather pathetic butthurt behaviour all because a 14 year old boy antagonized some idiots who decided to elevate Lee Kuan Yew (while conveniently forgetting the rest of the old guard cabinet) to the level of a demi-god.

Makes me feel like doing a Singapore version of the Polandball comic showing a butthurt USA running for the butthurt ointment, only to find none left.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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Section 298 of the country’s penal code, which forbids the uttering of words that might hurt the religious feelings of any person
Vague crappy blasphemy laws don't only fly in the face of freedom of speech, it sets the door open for nasty people who deserve to be criticized. A generic fundamentalist asshole from any religion will be offended by pretty much anything.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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I would assume that penal code was written in the aftermath of the racial riots in the 60, which was supposedly set off by people insulting Islam.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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My sense of Amos Yee is that he is a troll. Granted this is based on news reports where he seems to stir up shit against LKY when the guy is dead as opposed to when he is alive, and tends to downplay LKY's achievements. Can Singaporeans shed light on this?
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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mr friendly guy wrote:My sense of Amos Yee is that he is a troll. Granted this is based on news reports where he seems to stir up shit against LKY when the guy is dead as opposed to when he is alive, and tends to downplay LKY's achievements. Can Singaporeans shed light on this?
The point isn't whether he is a troll or not. It's the fact that throwing him into jail doesn't solve anything and it can be a unnecessary punishment.

As a society, Singapore does not tolerate the idea of being 'offended'. Any form of offensive remarks is seen as an attack on society.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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Certainly no one is beyond criticism, but the purpose of such criticism should be to improve ourselves because we know our flaws and our mistakes. Free speech helps achieve that goal. However a troll doesn't contribute to improvement because they tell falsehoods or stir shit up for their own entertainment. Despite what people who pontificate on free speech say, every country has limitations to it. Libel and slander would not exist otherwise. Crying fire in a crowded theatre would be ok otherwise. Racial vilification laws would not exist. Holocaust denial would not be outlawed if we accept free speech without limits.

I just have different limits in the sense that while he can say it, if he is a troll I just have no sympathy.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

Post by AniThyng »

The fact that it is possible to be banned from this board for being offensive, just not against religion is proof enough free speech always has limits, it's just a matter of where that limit is.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

wautd wrote:
Section 298 of the country’s penal code, which forbids the uttering of words that might hurt the religious feelings of any person
Vague crappy blasphemy laws don't only fly in the face of freedom of speech, it sets the door open for nasty people who deserve to be criticized. A generic fundamentalist asshole from any religion will be offended by pretty much anything.
The Protection Against Harrassment Act was also used against him too.

We are such a great country when it comes to butthurt really. :lol:
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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mr friendly guy wrote:Certainly no one is beyond criticism, but the purpose of such criticism should be to improve ourselves because we know our flaws and our mistakes. Free speech helps achieve that goal. However a troll doesn't contribute to improvement because they tell falsehoods or stir shit up for their own entertainment. Despite what people who pontificate on free speech say, every country has limitations to it. Libel and slander would not exist otherwise. Crying fire in a crowded theatre would be ok otherwise. Racial vilification laws would not exist. Holocaust denial would not be outlawed if we accept free speech without limits.

I just have different limits in the sense that while he can say it, if he is a troll I just have no sympathy.
The reaction from what I understanding isn't the issue of him trolling in general. It's the fact that he dared to mock religion that gets people up in arms.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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mr friendly guy wrote:Certainly no one is beyond criticism, but the purpose of such criticism should be to improve ourselves because we know our flaws and our mistakes. Free speech helps achieve that goal. However a troll doesn't contribute to improvement because they tell falsehoods or stir shit up for their own entertainment. Despite what people who pontificate on free speech say, every country has limitations to it. Libel and slander would not exist otherwise. Crying fire in a crowded theatre would be ok otherwise. Racial vilification laws would not exist. Holocaust denial would not be outlawed if we accept free speech without limits.

I just have different limits in the sense that while he can say it, if he is a troll I just have no sympathy.
I actually concur with you that Amos is a pretty annoying twat but at the same time free speech laws should always err on the side of too much rather than too little liberty and I see absolutely no sort of circumstance where "trolling" should be prohibited.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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ray245 wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:Certainly no one is beyond criticism, but the purpose of such criticism should be to improve ourselves because we know our flaws and our mistakes. Free speech helps achieve that goal. However a troll doesn't contribute to improvement because they tell falsehoods or stir shit up for their own entertainment. Despite what people who pontificate on free speech say, every country has limitations to it. Libel and slander would not exist otherwise. Crying fire in a crowded theatre would be ok otherwise. Racial vilification laws would not exist. Holocaust denial would not be outlawed if we accept free speech without limits.

I just have different limits in the sense that while he can say it, if he is a troll I just have no sympathy.
The reaction from what I understanding isn't the issue of him trolling in general. It's the fact that he dared to mock religion that gets people up in arms.
.....That's different........

The only thing I would actually argue is detrimental about this case is that Amos wasn't granted bail..... For some strange reason.

I'm going to reframe the debate here because I view state intervention in this matter in a slightly different light, as a....... positive measure which however will GO wrong.

Amos in this context wasn't investigated and arrested by the police for making offensive statements, unlike the comic artist. Multiple internet citizens made police reports about him and began a internet harassment campaign against him...... and his own mother made one of said police reports.

The state actually stepping in and taking control of the controversy is a positive measure because it essentially staunched the ongoing internet bullying against Amos that popped up immediately after his statement, where commenters were already digging up everything about his personal history and etc. We all seen examples of earlier Singaporean internet bullying, from Amy Cheng and her Muslim wedding deck comment to Anton Casey and his 'stench of public transport' comment.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakin ... 24909.html
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/ntuc-assistan ... -post.html

I........ honestly doubt that Christians were honestly offended that he compared LKY to Jesus or the PAP to the Catholic Church. But in framing his speech that way, he did hit upon potentially offensive and violent undertones of racial and religious speech in Singapore, which explains why the police stepped in and took this seriously. Its not the first time they did so and the history of racial and religious offence in Singapore explains why the State takes this so seriously, from the Christian inspired racial offensive against Islam and Taoism/Buddhism and the Muslim community feeling of being undervalued and discriminated against leading to the JI conspiracy on US warships.
An earlier political debate to reframe our ISA laws in the last decade was shut down after 9/11 because of events in Singapore resulting from the War on Terror and the government similarly declined to relax hate speech restrictions or to even define it, using it as a case on case basis because of the perceived WoT as well as the racial/religious tensions inspired by that in Singapore...............
So, the laws still exist on the books and hence our government response, to uphold other parts of the apparatus that ensure religious and racial bigotry, from YPAP members joking that a school bus was full of kids heading to terrorist training CAN get persecuted under the law, for the efforts of the current anti stalking and anti harassment campaigns to remain relevant in the internet age in the name of security....



The problem here however rests in the...... mechanical basis of our justice system.... one which was designed to make the system appear impartial but also makes it looks overwhelming powerful and uncaring. David Khoo on SB sums this up nicely, but our police system, despite the Malays railing at the social injustices of Singapore society, aren't viewed as racially profiling Malays. Its fuck the system, not fuck the police over here in Singapore. This despite the government stripping the police force of its initial racial recruitment from colonial days and then making it racially representative......then sticking the Chinese and Indians in top positions as the years go by due to the meritocratic system giving it to those with superior education. The reason why is because the law in Singapore is BLIND. Once it gets going, it rolls over those who are rich and poor, irregardless of race.

Michael Fergusson was the prime example of this, DESPITE the imperfection of the system. We actually punished him more severely than normal 'vandals'. Do you know why? Because kids who vandalize walls with graffiti and etc are punished for a misdemeanor, under civic/public mischief. Public vandalism was modified with a political agenda against it, against the communists and Barisan Socialist use of paint for political statements.... that's why the use of paint and other indelible substances to vandalize public property carry such a hefty penalty of caning. It was DESIGNED as a punitive action against political agitators. Now, Sticker Girl did get charged for vandalism, but if she had not spraypainted my Grandfather Road, she would STILL have been charged only for public mischief. We know the mother initially asked Michael to make the guilty plea but the family really need to ask why the lawyer they hired was so fucked up at not explaining this to them, because once the charge was made into the system, the Queen Counsel they hired to appeal could do nothing more than try for a step back to public mischief and fail........

Now, the system threw the book at Michael because that's what its designed to do. The AG cannot decide to not prosecute a person, their job is to interpret whether something is prosecutable or not and then raise criminal proceedings. Its explicitly designed that way so that nobody can argue that the law is impartial in Singapore. Its why its possible for a private citizen to sue the reigning Prime Minister for not conducting by elections fast enough, and it would STILL be possible for someone to sue the Prime Minister for not conducting a by election in Tanjong Pagar. They would lose because Constitution, but they CAN. Its vitally important because it means that our legal system isn't Fergusson, or L.A, or New York. Its mechanically blind.

SO..... despite the system having a positive impact by shutting down the internet harassment of Amos, it would ultimately sacrifice Amos because of its mechanical blindness.
General Mung Beans wrote: I actually concur with you that Amos is a pretty annoying twat but at the same time free speech laws should always err on the side of too much rather than too little liberty and I see absolutely no sort of circumstance where "trolling" should be prohibited.
And the system wouldn't care. The charges are mechanically valid, if he's found guilty in a court of law, he would still be persecuted. Punishment is the only leeway a judge has but he's also constrained by the body of law and cases. Our legal system would not bend to accommodate Amos, because doing so would invalidate the charge of racism against New Creation Church and cause our entire body of protection, creaking under the constant assault by evangelist Christians empowered by those from America to develop a crack, which in return would lead to more unhappiness amongst our Malay and other communities, and we DON"T want another US state embassy bombing.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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What I am concern about isn't necessary what the government chose to do, but what the larger segment of society chose to do. The fact that there are many people who filed police reports against Amos, with a much wider public backing on some level, makes the Singapore society as a whole as rather vicious. That is the part that makes me concerned about the situation.

In addition, the people who chose to respond to foreign criticism by members of society ( not the government) are framing this as an attack on Singapore's society by the "west". Even if the state did allow greater liberalisation within the community, the question is would the community itself allow controversial voice to be heard. The piece of satire was mentioning how Singapore would not allow groups like Westboro church to exist, but it isn't commenting how the Singaporean society can be just as vicious even if there is greater control on the freedom of speech.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

ray245 wrote:What I am concern about isn't necessary what the government chose to do, but what the larger segment of society chose to do. The fact that there are many people who filed police reports against Amos, with a much wider public backing on some level, makes the Singapore society as a whole as rather vicious. That is the part that makes me concerned about the situation.

In addition, the people who chose to respond to foreign criticism by members of society ( not the government) are framing this as an attack on Singapore's society by the "west". Even if the state did allow greater liberalisation within the community, the question is would the community itself allow controversial voice to be heard. The piece of satire was mentioning how Singapore would not allow groups like Westboro church to exist, but it isn't commenting how the Singaporean society can be just as vicious even if there is greater control on the freedom of speech.
If you want to be more concerned, you should be more concerned that the state is using this law called the "Protection Against Harassment Act" against Amos, ostensibly for his video having "contained remarks about Mr Lee Kuan Yew which was intended to be heard and seen by persons likely to be distressed".

The religious criticism nonsense be damned really. Because if one wants to find plenty of anti-religious insults online, there are dime in the dozen.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

Post by ray245 »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: If you want to be more concerned, you should be more concerned that the state is using this law called the "Protection Against Harassment Act" against Amos, ostensibly for his video having "contained remarks about Mr Lee Kuan Yew which was intended to be heard and seen by persons likely to be distressed".

The religious criticism nonsense be damned really. Because if one wants to find plenty of anti-religious insults online, there are dime in the dozen.
What the state chose to do isn't that much of a concern to me as opposed to what the society demands from the government. It's the fact that people are applauding the action to prosecute Amos ( not for the sake of upholding the legal system) for the sake of protecting a "Singapore" identity that worries me.

This shows that even if the state didn't use the "protection against Harassment act" to prosecute Amos, there are members of the public that wants this. That is what that worries me.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

ray245 wrote: What the state chose to do isn't that much of a concern to me as opposed to what the society demands from the government. It's the fact that people are applauding the action to prosecute Amos ( not for the sake of upholding the legal system) for the sake of protecting a "Singapore" identity that worries me.

This shows that even if the state didn't use the "protection against Harassment act" to prosecute Amos, there are members of the public that wants this. That is what that worries me.
How do you know the state did not want to use the Act against him?

Members of the public applauding it is nothing new. Singapore is filled to the brim with self-righteous butt hurt twats anyway.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: How do you know the state did not want to use the Act against him?
I don't know. All I say is that it doesn't matter what the state does if the society is helping the state to legitimise their action.
Members of the public applauding it is nothing new. Singapore is filled to the brim with self-righteous butt hurt twats anyway.
All that means is that we cannot frame this issue as a mere issue of "state against the individual". The role that society plays in determining what the state does is a far more important in my view. It's like people being surprised that arch-conservative societies in the middle east elects arch-conservative and religious government.

Even in a society that has a more limited freedom of speech, the society still plays a role in shaping the actions of a government, especially in terms of crime and punishment. All I am saying is we should restrict ourselves to use the "state vs. the indvidual" paradigm all the time when we talk about political liberalism in a society.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: If you want to be more concerned, you should be more concerned that the state is using this law called the "Protection Against Harassment Act" against Amos, ostensibly for his video having "contained remarks about Mr Lee Kuan Yew which was intended to be heard and seen by persons likely to be distressed".

The religious criticism nonsense be damned really. Because if one wants to find plenty of anti-religious insults online, there are dime in the dozen.
Except again, this is because of mechanical fairness.if the act is to be used impartially to protect bloggers from harrassment and that blogshop owner, then it's also applied here.

Remember, the AGC focus here is to interpret what charges are applicable for someone brought in to face trial, not to actually prosecute someone for a trial. It's a difference from America and western system, but was designed initially to make the system appears impartial
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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ray245 wrote:What I am concern about isn't necessary what the government chose to do, but what the larger segment of society chose to do. The fact that there are many people who filed police reports against Amos, with a much wider public backing on some level, makes the Singapore society as a whole as rather vicious. That is the part that makes me concerned about the situation.

In addition, the people who chose to respond to foreign criticism by members of society ( not the government) are framing this as an attack on Singapore's society by the "west". Even if the state did allow greater liberalisation within the community, the question is would the community itself allow controversial voice to be heard. The piece of satire was mentioning how Singapore would not allow groups like Westboro church to exist, but it isn't commenting how the Singaporean society can be just as vicious even if there is greater control on the freedom of speech.
I'm sorry,but just how was the reply negative or bad?it accurately pointed out that the author dressed up Amos sentences in high faluting words to make it noble and used wit to point out that the author hack job was imperialist and ethnocentric. It's akin to the Nacirema all over again.

It's not the first time Nathan got attacked for how he used the word humanist to conceal nonsense speech (His critic of Ivy League education) and he got called on it.

The state of Singapore internet culture is another thing and there's an...interesting debate to be held here, but it's not the one Westerners are willing to hold. It's not the State holding free speech prisoner, but the State acting as the nanny of internet behaviour....
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

PainRack wrote:Except again, this is because of mechanical fairness.if the act is to be used impartially to protect bloggers from harrassment and that blogshop owner, then it's also applied here.

Remember, the AGC focus here is to interpret what charges are applicable for someone brought in to face trial, not to actually prosecute someone for a trial. It's a difference from America and western system, but was designed initially to make the system appears impartial
Well, that's the point. We have long known that the PAP government hasn't been shy from using a law as a blunt instrument. Previously it was the ISA. Now we have a seemingly innocuous law being used against someone who made a viewpoint online that roused up a populace. I vaguely recall there was a ruckus created by this law way back when it was first introduced, and in those days, it was particularly pertinent because in Malaysia, the blogosphere was particularly active against the KL government.

And we all know that our judicial system is anything but independent. There. I just made a statement that if were public as hell, I'd have ended up in court for "making a mockery of justice". :lol:
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

ray245 wrote:All that means is that we cannot frame this issue as a mere issue of "state against the individual". The role that society plays in determining what the state does is a far more important in my view. It's like people being surprised that arch-conservative societies in the middle east elects arch-conservative and religious government.

Even in a society that has a more limited freedom of speech, the society still plays a role in shaping the actions of a government, especially in terms of crime and punishment. All I am saying is we should restrict ourselves to use the "state vs. the indvidual" paradigm all the time when we talk about political liberalism in a society.
As the saying goes, society and culture makes a government. Singapore is what it is because a large segment of the people want it that way. Everyone is culpable one way or the other.

Of course, a lot of what we think should be is often born out of a combination of ignorance, both wilful and unintentional, and bone-headed stubborn stupidity.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

Post by ray245 »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: As the saying goes, society and culture makes a government. Singapore is what it is because a large segment of the people want it that way. Everyone is culpable one way or the other.

Of course, a lot of what we think should be is often born out of a combination of ignorance, both wilful and unintentional, and bone-headed stubborn stupidity.
If we wishes to be a more tolerant society, attitudes like the satire would be problematic. By creating a east vs. west paradigm, it makes it harder for society to understand the idea of humanism. I just find it difficult when people are trying to reconstruct the idea of an "eastern" idea of human rights vs. a "western" idea of human rights.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
PainRack wrote:Except again, this is because of mechanical fairness.if the act is to be used impartially to protect bloggers from harrassment and that blogshop owner, then it's also applied here.

Remember, the AGC focus here is to interpret what charges are applicable for someone brought in to face trial, not to actually prosecute someone for a trial. It's a difference from America and western system, but was designed initially to make the system appears impartial
Well, that's the point. We have long known that the PAP government hasn't been shy from using a law as a blunt instrument. Previously it was the ISA. Now we have a seemingly innocuous law being used against someone who made a viewpoint online that roused up a populace. I vaguely recall there was a ruckus created by this law way back when it was first introduced, and in those days, it was particularly pertinent because in Malaysia, the blogosphere was particularly active against the KL government.

And we all know that our judicial system is anything but independent. There. I just made a statement that if were public as hell, I'd have ended up in court for "making a mockery of justice". :lol:
The law just came out last year November.What ruckus was involved?or are you referring to Xiaxue use of the law against the satirist SMRT Limited?
Anyway, I hardly call a law six months old to be way back.

As for not independent, citations needed.
Edit: that's the standard required for political debate,nothing more,nothing less.
Last edited by PainRack on 2015-04-19 12:30am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

Post by PainRack »

ray245 wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: As the saying goes, society and culture makes a government. Singapore is what it is because a large segment of the people want it that way. Everyone is culpable one way or the other.

Of course, a lot of what we think should be is often born out of a combination of ignorance, both wilful and unintentional, and bone-headed stubborn stupidity.
If we wishes to be a more tolerant society, attitudes like the satire would be problematic. By creating a east vs. west paradigm, it makes it harder for society to understand the idea of humanism. I just find it difficult when people are trying to reconstruct the idea of an "eastern" idea of human rights vs. a "western" idea of human rights.
except that it's wholly appropriate. Look, critics of books and films don't distort stuff ,nor do they use vulgar language and other taboos as high culture . Nathan got called on this and how his view was ethnocentric. Just what the fuck is wrong with this?

It's a way better rebuttal than Timothy idiot I can walk around the streets safely, which deserves all the mockery it can and should get.
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Re: Singaporeans' response to freedom of speech criticism

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Hmmm, I forgot to actually post why I found the State intervention to be initially positive.

Because a Malay poet, stating politely that Singapore society was not discussing the criticism of his rule and glorifying his life and death received death threats online, prompting him to withdraw that comment.

THAT....is a way more alarmist event than Amos necrophilia and Come Sue Me motherfucker. Because that guy made a cogent point that wasn't disrespectful to anyone and received death threats for it.

If the law ISNT bought down upon Amos, he was well on the way to receiving such threats n etc given the furore and if the law didn't punish him, there's going to be awkward questions asked because of his enthicity and social class....

Bringing the matter to the State prevented more online bullying and staunched the fire.It's just that Amos,despite my desire for leniency because trolling and stupidity is part of being young and foolish...Will probably be sacrificed and punished.

We.... Do badly need a review and etc, but I do have sympathy for why the government acts the way it does, even if I do think that ultimately, it's defeatist....
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