Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

Post by Aaron MkII »

Honestly have no idea if this is a reputable source or not.
 
Vice-President Joe Biden's first detailed remarks about the package of gun control reforms he intends to present next Tuesday to President Obama are solid first steps.

Speaking Thursday in Washington in between meetings with various gun control constituencies -- from pro-control victims groups and public health physicians on one side to the NRA on the other side -- Biden laid out seven proposals that would more or less reset the federal clock on gun control laws to where it was in 1985, a year before Congress started loosening decades of laws under the Reagan administration and NRA lobbying. Biden repeatedly earned an F rating from the NRA during his tenure in the Senate. 

Here are the seven agenda items, which Biden said had near-unanimous support from gun control groups.

1) Close the so-called gun show loophole. In 1986, Congress passed a law allowing people to buy a firearm at one of the thousands of gun shows held each year across the country. These sales require no licensing of the gun buyer, no background checks, no waiting periods before getting the gun, no reporting sales to local or federal authorities. Today, 40 percent of gun sales annually across the county occur at gun shows, and by some estimates 80 percent of weapons used in crimes are bought at gun shows.

“There is a surprising—so far—a surprising recurrence of suggestions that we have universal background checks, not just close the gun show loophole but totally universal background checks including private sales,” Biden said.

2) Universal background checks for gun buyers; and 3) improve background check database. These two proposals are connected and face significant political, technical and legal hurdles. Congress has barred certain groups of people from owning guns for decades, starting with felons in 1934. In 1968, Congress expanded that list to include the mentally ill and drug addicts. In 1993, Congress passed the Brady Bill—named after Ronald Reagan’s press secretary who was shot—which instituted a federal system of background checks for gun buyers, and extended the waiting period to five days before buyers could get their guns.

The background check system has been in shambles for years, as AlterNet has reported, with three-quarters of the states choosing not to share court information about felons and the mentally ill with federal authorities, and the Supreme Court ruling in 1997 that states didn’t have to comply with the reporting requirement.

Even though Congress passed a 2007 law creating federally administered grants to states to overcome technical hurdles with sending information to the Justice Department (some states submit information electronically; others infrequently mail a CD) only a dozen states account for most of the data six years after that became law. Biden complained about this non-compliance Thursday. However, the solution doesn’t appear to be a quick fix if past is precedent.

“It doesn’t do a lot of good when in some states they have a backlog of 40, 50, 60,000 felons that they never registered here,” Biden said. “So we have got to talk about, there is a lot of talk about how we entice, or what is the impediment keeping states from relaying this information.”

4) Limit high-capacity bullet magazines. Every recent mass shooting has had high death rates because the shooters had guns that not only automatically reloaded and kept firing, but were fed a big supply of bullets. Biden said there was near-unanimous support among gun control advocates to regulate higher-capacity magazines.

“I have never quite heard as much talk about the need to do something about high-capacity magazines as I have heard spontaneously from every group I have met with so far,” the vice-president said.

It is notable that in 1934, when Congress passed the first federal gun-control law, one of the key focuses was taking machine guns out of circulation, because they were used by gangsters for some of the worst mass killings. Congress did that by severely taxing those guns, making them unaffordable. Ironically, modern automatic weapons fed by high-capacity bullet clips are as deadly.   
   
5) Allow federal research on gun violence; and 6) remove gag orders on federal agencies that collect gun data. Like the background check hurdles, these two proposals are intertwined. Starting in 1996, Republicans in Congress started doing the NRA a big favor by placing restrictions on key federal agencies’ ability to conduct research on gun-related violence. Those restrictions did not apply to car accidents, in contrast. Similarly, in 2003, Congress barred the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives from sharing data in its records that traced gun sales.

Politically, the NRA was being very shrewd. It wanted to steer the public information and debate about gun controls away from the effects of gun violence to the terrain of constitutional freedom. By suppressing the public health science and data sources, it could attack its critics as being shrill and uninformed.   

"So there was a real effort to deny the government just gathering the information,” Biden said. “As you know there are restrictions now on any agency in the government just gathering the information about what kind of weapons are used most to kill people. How many weapons used are trafficked weapons? Are weapons used in gang warfare in our major cities—are they legally purchased or are they purchased through strawmen? We don’t have that information. And the irony is we are prohibited under laws and appropriations bills from acquiring it.”

But Biden’s remarks about restoring the federal government’s research capacity were curious. He seemed to steer away from the NRA and instead target a much weaker industry, in terms of its political clout: video gamemakers.

“The last area… has to do with the ability of any agency to do any research on the issue of gun violence,” he said. “For example, we’re meeting before the week is out with the gaming industry—I don’t mean gambling—with the video game industry.”

7) Target purveyors of violence as a cultural norm. Biden’s most intriguing remarks came after he mentioned video games—which the NRA blamed for inciting violence in its infamous press conference after the Newtown shooting when it proposed arming America’s public school teachers.  

Biden recalled working on a crime bill in the 1980s with New York Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who said that Americans have been subjected to years of increasing violence and have come to accept deviant behavior as normal.

“He used the example of the assassination of a mob boss in 1936… making the front page of every paper in America,” Biden said. “And then he stood on the Senate floor and he held up the New York Times and on page 54, he picked it up, at the very back of the paper, where an entire family, including grandmother, mother, father, children, were basically assassinated in their apartment, thinking it may have been about a drug deal, and it made page 54. And he said, ‘We’ve defined deviancy down.’”

Biden is indeed correct that there are many cultural forces and factors that send messages that using guns and violence to settle disputes is acceptable. Anyone who has sat through the latest coming attractions at a movie theater sees many variations on the vigilante and revenge motif.

But what was noticeably absent from this part of Biden’s remarks were how the NRA has been encouraging people for decades to mistrust government and look to armed insurrection, if necessary, as a Second Amendment fantasy, with violent results. Former Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords’ would-be assassin, Jared Lee Loughner, was obsessed with the NRA’s "by-any-means-necessary" view of the Constitution and use of arms, according to many media accounts.          

Biden made his remarks before meeting with the NRA’s representatives on Thursday. He will present his slate of gun-control recommendations to President Obama early next week. But the seven proposals he reeled off in remarks to the media would essentially reset some of the nation’s gun control laws to where they were in the mid-1980s.

What else could he propose? There have been no shortage of suggestions, such as: a national registry of gun owners; national licensing requirement to buy guns; mandatory registration of gun sales—including transfer titles like used cars; new rules on what ammunition can and cannot be sold; new bans on sales of guns or weapons used by the police and military; stiffer penalties for failing to meet these and other gun laws; limits on the number of guns that can be bought at one time; repealing many of the bad laws sponsored by the NRA since the 1980s.
 
And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. This American Prospect piece by David Kairys goes into even greater detail about what gun laws cannot just become law, but would be effective. Kairys, a law professor at Temple University, notes that the NRA has been employing a very cynical strategy for years: “proposing or supporting meaningless or gutted laws, then publically arguing that all we need is to enforce them.”

He concludes, “It’s time for our political leaders to pay attention and act with conviction and courage.”
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politi ... un-control

I actually don't find much of this objectionable, until I get to seven.

Who's the scapegoat this time? Games, movies, D&D?
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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And like I said elsewhere, I have 10 bucks that says the only thing that happens is excessively punitive action on #7, while everything else fades away.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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5 - 6 are issues if the results of the research are politically motivated and inaccurate to justify confiscation of firearms, and since there's no guarantees about the research with people like Feinstein clearly gunning for that and using everything they can to get it, I oppose them, just as with 7 for the obvious reasons that we live in a free society. I have no problem whatsoever with the implementation of proposals 1 - 4.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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Fuck off. When you talk about banning all Federal funding of research and suppressing statistics generated by Federal agencies then YOU are the one who is politically motivated.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:5 - 6 are issues if the results of the research are politically motivated and inaccurate to justify confiscation of firearms, and since there's no guarantees about the research with people like Feinstein clearly gunning for that and using everything they can to get it, I oppose them, just as with 7 for the obvious reasons that we live in a free society. I have no problem whatsoever with the implementation of proposals 1 - 4.
They talking about the research done by the night and CDC which isn't politically motivated.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

Post by Grumman »

Bringing up the 1934 laws in favour of gun control is really stupid. One, it is proof that even when the gun control advocates get what they claim to want, with a near 100% success rate in stopping murders with automatics (two in fifty years, one committed by a crooked cop who, of course, was exempt anyway), they still weren't satisfied. Two, all the gains of this law can just as easily be laid at the feet of the Constitutional amendment passed just a few months earlier that actually addressed the causes of gang violence: the end of prohibition.

And #7 certainly sounds like an attack on the First Amendment. A hypocritical attack, when it comes from the same Administration whose CIA just helped produce a movie that advocates torture and falsely claims it helped us find Osama Bin Laden.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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1 is pointless. There is no Gun Show loophole. There is a Private Sales loophole. The vast majority of weapons bought at gun shows are still conducted through licensed delears. FFL holders must conduct a background check on any sale. Even at a gun show. If you push for gun show background checks without doing anything on private sales, you push the guns into the parking lot where they can freely sell without a background check.

I like 2 and 3. The reasoning seems pretty valid.

4 will do jack and shit. The amount of time wasted on reloading a 10 round magazine vs a 15 round magazine is pointless. Someone did the math on the V-Tech shooting and determined that the shooter would have had to reload a whopping 2 extra times. And he was already using one 10-round gun (Walther P22 is a 10 round .22 pistol). All 4 does it piss off law abiding gun owners without doing anything to seriously impede crime. The 5 most popular guns before the 1994 AWB (which started this 10 round nonsense) all had less than 10 rounds.

5 and 6 seem reasonable. But I'd like a neutral science first approach. Not political bullshit.

7 is bullshit. The same video games that are popular in the US are also popular around the world. There are other factors at play. Blaming video games just drives the younger voters out of your party.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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The plan is to end all legal private sales, Alyeska, without a background check being conducted, which means you'd have to meet at a dealer to swap the gun. I have no problem with this, just like the magazine ban does give a few more brief chances to charge the guy, or shoot him if you're a CPL, whereas I don't think it should really piss anyone off... Stoking stripper clips or switching mags is no big deal.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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weemadando wrote:Fuck off. When you talk about banning all Federal funding of research and suppressing statistics generated by Federal agencies then YOU are the one who is politically motivated.
We have every right considering the statements of the gun grabbing left to refuse to let them allocate money for this kind of research. I don't care what you say, we will stop this from happening and fortunately as an Australian you can't do anything about it.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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Aaron MkII wrote: I actually don't find much of this objectionable, until I get to seven.

Who's the scapegoat this time? Games, movies, D&D?
Actually, there's sound research into what media is most culpable for increasing mass killings.

News reporting. Specifically the sensationalist style in which mass killings are covered by news media, which focuses on the killer, frequently describing or accentuating certain features of dress (if the killer wore black or a long coat, expect that to be prominent in news reporting) and discussing the victims only in their number rather than as individual people who have lost their lives.

The constant media coverage tends to create a spate of similar attacks, similar to the Werther effect from high profile suicides, the clearest evidence of this effect is the aftermath of the 1996 Moses Lake school shootings, where there was significant media focus on the fact that the killer quoted a line from a Stephen King book* after shooting his teacher. Within two months there had been four other school shootings where the killers cited the same book as a source of inspiration. Either that book really makes you wanna shoot dudes, or the news coverage of Moses Lake materially affected their decisionmaking process.

And now, since Sandy Hook there has been at least one other school attack (Taft Union in California, stopped by a teacher without a gun).

* Psychological studies into mass killers show that their most common entertainment medium of choice is books, videogames actually come in last.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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Vendetta has a very excellent point. I wouldn't mind legislation banning reporting on school shootings, but it would be impossible to pass 1st Amendment muster. Maybe we could do some restrictions on it, though. Similar reporting bans have resulted in an enormous drop in subway suicides in Austria, I've been given to understand.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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This is a good example of situations where an armed citizenry is important, it's very hard to get guns in Mexico, but here we have people with them taking action after too long of a state of virtual civil war perpetuated by a corrupt and uncaring government. Only when the people rise up with arms to suppress the violence can insurgencies and narco-wars truly be intended, it's what happened in Colombia with the rise of pro-government militias and perhaps we'll see the demonstration of it here in Mexico as well.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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There's no need to ban coverage of school shootings, there are responsible ways to report them; localise the event, focus on the victims and anonymise the killer, and don't sensationalise the event with dramatic descriptive language.

Unfortunately, that won't sell newspapers.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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Vendetta wrote:There's no need to ban coverage of school shootings, there are responsible ways to report them; localise the event, focus on the victims and anonymise the killer, and don't sensationalise the event with dramatic descriptive language.

Unfortunately, that won't sell newspapers.

Well, that's perfectly reasonable. I shouldn't have put it so generally.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The plan is to end all legal private sales, Alyeska, without a background check being conducted, which means you'd have to meet at a dealer to swap the gun. I have no problem with this, just like the magazine ban does give a few more brief chances to charge the guy, or shoot him if you're a CPL, whereas I don't think it should really piss anyone off... Stoking stripper clips or switching mags is no big deal.
Background checks for all transfers would make sense. Not just sales, transfers. As in gifts, exchanges, etc.

But the magazine restriction is bullshit and you know it. 1.5 seconds. Thats how long it takes to reload a revolver or semi automatic. If someone is "loaded for bear", 10 round magazines wouldn't do shit to stop the attacks.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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Alyeska wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The plan is to end all legal private sales, Alyeska, without a background check being conducted, which means you'd have to meet at a dealer to swap the gun. I have no problem with this, just like the magazine ban does give a few more brief chances to charge the guy, or shoot him if you're a CPL, whereas I don't think it should really piss anyone off... Stoking stripper clips or switching mags is no big deal.
Background checks for all transfers would make sense. Not just sales, transfers. As in gifts, exchanges, etc.

But the magazine restriction is bullshit and you know it. 1.5 seconds. Thats how long it takes to reload a revolver or semi automatic. If someone is "loaded for bear", 10 round magazines wouldn't do shit to stop the attacks.
1.5 seconds is for an exquisitely trained and drilled individual. Breakdowns of massacres by time show the magazine change time is a LOT longer for the butcherers in those situations. Also, 1.5 seconds is more than enough time to squeeze off a round unopposed if you're facing the motherfucker.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote: 1.5 seconds is for an exquisitely trained and drilled individual. Breakdowns of massacres by time show the magazine change time is a LOT longer for the butcherers in those situations. Also, 1.5 seconds is more than enough time to squeeze off a round unopposed if you're facing the motherfucker.
Not really. 1.5 seconds can be achieved with a days practice.

If your intent is to force them to reload more often, 10 rounds is an awful lot of ammo. Why not limit to 5 rounds? Or 3? Wouldn't that be reasonable? Won't someone think of the children.

Most people killed by guns are killed in the first round of shooting. How often do you have a prolonged gun fight that requires a reload? You are seeking to address spree shootings. Statistically they are irrelevant. Tragedy, sure. But also irrelevant.

10 most popular criminal guns according to the ATF

1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver
2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic
3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic
4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic
5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun
6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic
7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver
8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic
9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic
10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomatic

I only see two or three guns on that list that have more than 10 rounds. The most popular guns are very small. Which means low magazine capacity.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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I actually support a 5 or 6-round limit for detachable magazines (no limit for fixed mags, though, that would be retarded). And the point isn't the most popular guns, you dithering moron, it's the detachable magazine semi-automatics used in these massacres. Stop giving me irrelevant canned statistics! You're just wandering off on tangents.

I also don't believe you worth a damn that a 1.5 second magazine change can be accomplished with a day's practice. Your incompetence when it comes to firearms safety and handling is well known on this board, and I have seen plenty of articles suggesting the contrary, whereas I just have your word of such ridiculousness. It also is, of course, a figure from the perfectly ideal world of practice at your home or the range, not while in the middle of murdering as many people as possible, some of whom are fighting back.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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Is there a reason that banning automatics/any autoloadrrs for general sales/use is off the table? Have all the pump actions, bolt actions and breech/muzzle loaders you want, but if you want to have something that doesn't require manual action between each round being chambered then you need a valid professional purpose?
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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Alyeska wrote: 10 most popular criminal guns according to the ATF
The aim in reducing magazine size is to reduce the deadliness of mass killings, not ordinary criminal activity with firearms.

Ordinary criminals want their firearms to be easily concealed above all else, they don't care about how many bullets are in it.

So the list is basically irrelevant to discussions of magazine size.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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Vendetta wrote:
Alyeska wrote: 10 most popular criminal guns according to the ATF
The aim in reducing magazine size is to reduce the deadliness of mass killings, not ordinary criminal activity with firearms.

Ordinary criminals want their firearms to be easily concealed above all else, they don't care about how many bullets are in it.

So the list is basically irrelevant to discussions of magazine size.
Mass Killings are also statistically insignificant. Less than a hundred deaths a year. When you reach the threshold where you are willing to ban something over a mere 100 deaths a year, you gotta clamp down real hard on a lot of things.

Sandy Hook is a tragedy. But reacting to Sandy Hook by banning high capacity magazines won't solve the issue and primarily annoys law abiding citizens who have done nothing wrong.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Your incompetence when it comes to firearms safety and handling is well known on this board
I see you are a fan of poisoning the well.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

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weemadando wrote:Is there a reason that banning automatics/any autoloadrrs for general sales/use is off the table? Have all the pump actions, bolt actions and breech/muzzle loaders you want, but if you want to have something that doesn't require manual action between each round being chambered then you need a valid professional purpose?
Because that basically severely restricts the fundamental constitutional right of people to organise militias and maintain military arms which are necessary, in the US social consensus, for a truly free state.

More generally, there is no furthermore real evidence that the autoloader is that much more greatly effective; 15 aimed rounds a minute are well within the capability of a bolt-action rifle, more if you're not aiming--and that's one that has to be reloaded after 10 - 12 rounds with 5-round stripper clips. In short, with a small enough magazine, an autoloader is not any more dangerous in terms of rate of fire when averaged over a longer period of time (several minutes) than a bolt action. A limit on detachable magazines to 5 rounds (the same as a typical stripper clip) would make the difference between autoloaders and bolt-action rifles exquisitely small in terms of sustained rate of fire.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Alyeska wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Your incompetence when it comes to firearms safety and handling is well known on this board
I see you are a fan of poisoning the well.
Alyeska, when you make a claim based on personal experience, in this case, "you can train yourself to change detachable mags in 1.5 seconds in only a day", your competency at the subject involved in that claim is now a legitimate topic for debate. Deal with it.
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Re: Biden Talks Gun Control Proposals

Post by Alyeska »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Alyeska, when you make a claim based on personal experience, in this case, "you can train yourself to change detachable mags in 1.5 seconds in only a day", your competency at the subject involved in that claim is now a legitimate topic for debate. Deal with it.
And you called me an incompetent moron. That my incompetency was well known.

I'm waiting.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."

"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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