Young, College-Educated, and Desperate - F*** The Poor!

[KlavoHunter]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/2 ... mg00000042

Seeking Arrangement: College Students Using 'Sugar Daddies' To Pay Off Loan Debt

... A month prior, faced with about $15,000 in unpaid tuition and overdue bills, Taylor and her roommate typed "tuition," "debt," and "money for school" into Google. A website called SeekingArrangement.com popped up. Intrigued by the promise of what the site billed as a "college tuition sugar daddy," Taylor created a "sugar baby" profile and eventually connected with the man from Greenwich. ("Taylor" is the pseudonym she uses with men she meets online. Neither she nor any of the other women interviewed for this article permitted their real names be used.)

...

Saddled with piles of student debt and a job-scarce, lackluster economy, current college students and recent graduates are selling themselves to pursue a diploma or pay down their loans. An increasing number, according to the the owners of websites that broker such hook-ups, have taken to the web in search of online suitors or wealthy benefactors who, in exchange for sex, companionship, or both, might help with the bills.

The past few years have taken an especially brutal toll on the plans and expectations of 20-somethings. As unemployment rates tick steadily higher, starting salaries have plummeted. Meanwhile, according to Jeffrey Jensen Arnett, a professor of psychology at Clark University, about 85 percent of the class of 2011 will likely move back in with their parents during some period of their post-college years, compared with 40 percent a decade ago.

Besides moving back home, many 20-somethings are beginning their adult lives shouldering substantial amounts of student loan debt. According to Mark Kantrowitz, who publishes the financial aid websites Fastweb.com and Finaid.org, while the average 2011 graduate finished school with about $27,200 in debt, many are straining to pay off significantly greater loans.

...

"Over the past few years, the number of college students using our site has exploded," says Brandon Wade, the 41-year-old founder of Seeking Arrangement. Of the site's approximately 800,000 members, Wade estimates that 35 percent are students. "College students are one of the biggest segments of our sugar babies and the numbers are growing all the time."

Wade rewards students who use a .edu email address to register on Seeking Arrangement by automatically upgrading their free, basic membership to a premium membership, allowing them to send unlimited free messages and granting them exclusive access to the site's cadre of VIP sugar daddies. The site also includes a complimentary stamp on student profiles, certifying them as a "college sugar baby."

...

Taylor doesn't explicitly refer to what she was doing in Greenwich as prostitution, but she now allows that her primary motivation was, indeed, money. She and her host ended up in his bedroom, where he peeled off her bikini.

"I just wanted to get it over and done with as quickly as possible," recalls Taylor, forcing out a nervous smile. "I just wanted to get out of that situation as safely as possible, pay off my debt, and move on." ... "I never thought it would come to this. I got on the train and I felt dirty. I mean, I had just gotten money for having sex," says Taylor, who never heard from the guy in Greenwich again. "I guess I accomplished what I needed to do. I needed the money for school. I just did what needed to be done."

And she's still doing what needs to be done. With tuition due in September to pay for her last semester of college, Taylor's back on the hunt for other, more lucrative online hookups.

...

"It's a very expensive job," says Jack, a 70-year-old sugar daddy, who describes himself as a "humanitarian" interested in helping young women in financial need. ... "Unlike a traditional escort service, I was surprised to find such an educated, smart population," says Jack, during cocktail hour recently at the Ritz-Carlton in Manhattan. He said he lives next door in a penthouse apartment overlooking Central Park South and pays $22,000 a month in rent. ... Educated, debt-ridden 20-somethings happen to be an age demographic that intersects nicely with Jack's preferences. "I only go out with girls 25 and under," says Jack, whose thick head of white hair and bushy eyebrows form a halo around a red, flushed face. "But I can't walk into a bar and go up to a 25-year-old. They'd think I'm a pervert. So, this is how I go about meeting them."

As he continues, he repeatedly glances over his shoulder to make sure no one is listening.

"Most of these young women have debt from school," says Jack, who finds most young women also carry an average of $8,000 in credit-card debt. "I guess I like the college girls more because I think of their student debt as good debt. At least it seems like I'm helping them out, like I'm helping them to get a better life."

...

He [SCUMBAG WADE] says married men account for at least 40 percent of the site's sugar daddies. Sugar babies outnumber sugar daddies by a ratio of nearly 10 to 1. Wade declined to disclose how much money he makes from the site. With more than 115,000 sugar daddies averaging $50 a month in membership fees, and some paying more to belong to the exclusive Diamond Club, it's safe to assume Wade's investment has more than paid off -- and that's not even including advertising revenue.

...

Seeking Arrangement listed the top 20 universities attended by sugar babies on the site. They compiled the list according to the number of sugar babies who registered using their .edu email addresses or listed schools' names on their profiles. New York University tops the list with 498 sugar babies, while UCLA comes in at No. 8 with 253, and Harvard University ranks at No. 9 with 231.

...

Six of the eight women interviewed for this article mentioned the longer-term psychological toll of pretending to be someone else. Double lives and dual identities are common for both the women and men involved in sugar relationships. Lately, when Dayanara catches her reflection in a storefront window, she says she sometimes doesn't know which version of herself is staring back.

...

Ronald Roberts and Teela Sanders, two social science professors in the U.K., contend that a combination of rising tuition, increased debt, a culture of mass consumption and low-wage work are luring students to the sex industry in greater and greater numbers. They fear that as college costs continue to rise, more students will pursue sex work.

Let's try this thread again without the inherent Testingstani pollution, on LadyTevar's recommendation.

[aerius]

Whoopdedoo, to be honest. College girls have been paying off their student loans by working as Hooters chicks, strippers, massage parlour attendants and escorts since before I was born. Now they got the internet to make their escort hookups easier and reach out to a larger customer base, it's just the evolution of the game.

[spaceviking]

I thought strippers just liked to say they were doing it to get through college Sounds better than saying it's for crystal meth.

[aerius]

No doubt some of them are just saying it, but when I was in university I saw a few of my classmates and working in these places so it does indeed happen.

[J]

Though I wasn't entirely serious in the other thread, there are kernels of truth in what I wrote.

---

Seemingly nobody pays any fucking attention to the root causes until you can point out the poisonous fruit like this growing off it.

Except the root cause isn't high tuition costs, we need to look at why tuition costs are so high. The why is governments, financial companies and colleges pushing student loans onto prospective students along with changing the laws such that student loans are nearly impossible to discharge in bankruptcy filings. This then allows colleges to raise tuition by double digit percentages every year knowing that a growing stream of students will be pushed into their programs by propaganda and societal expectations, and with easy loans available they will ante up and sign themselves into debt slavery (Sally needs a $100k loan for college? Sure! No problem! We'll own her forever now!).

It's basically a way for educational institutions and financials to collect free government money while creating millions of debt slaves every year. It's similar to how the healthcare racket works, except it's even better since the victims can't discharge their debts through a Chapter 7 filing. In other words, we need to kill all the financials and get rid of Sallie Mae, then the Free Markettm will force colleges to reduce tuitions to an affordable level. This solves the educational debt problem which means Sally won't have to sell herself to a sugar daddy.

[hongi]

"It's a very expensive job," says Jack, a 70-year-old sugar daddy, who describes himself as a "humanitarian" interested in helping young women in financial need. ... "Unlike a traditional escort service, I was surprised to find such an educated, smart population," says Jack, during cocktail hour recently at the Ritz-Carlton in Manhattan. He said he lives next door in a penthouse apartment overlooking Central Park South and pays $22,000 a month in rent. ... Educated, debt-ridden 20-somethings happen to be an age demographic that intersects nicely with Jack's preferences. "I only go out with girls 25 and under," says Jack, whose thick head of white hair and bushy eyebrows form a halo around a red, flushed face. "But I can't walk into a bar and go up to a 25-year-old. They'd think I'm a pervert. So, this is how I go about meeting them."

As he continues, he repeatedly glances over his shoulder to make sure no one is listening.

"Most of these young women have debt from school," says Jack, who finds most young women also carry an average of $8,000 in credit-card debt. "I guess I like the college girls more because I think of their student debt as good debt. At least it seems like I'm helping them out, like I'm helping them to get a better life."

I hate this man. A disgusting turd. I wonder if he's actually deluded himself into thinking that he's helping these women by having sex with them. Of course, he could just give them the money for free without making them sell their body...

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Let's try this thread again without the inherent Testingstani pollution, on LadyTevar's recommendation.

Sorry, are you mad that not enough people were as outraged as you were that these women are having sex with people other than yourself?

Or maybe you're hoping that the definition of 'coercion' changes between subfora?

[aerius]

But, even when that day comes, I betcha people will still be willing to do work they dislike for extra cash. It's just the way we are.

I would do anything for love but I won't do that

Wait, we're talking 'bout money? Yeah I'll fill out my buddy's tax returns for a few bills.
I ain't cleaning toilets though, I gotta draw the line somewhere. Unless you want to pay me a couple grand an hour.

[AniThyng]

I hate this man. A disgusting turd. I wonder if he's actually deluded himself into thinking that he's helping these women by having sex with them. Of course, he could just give them the money for free without making them sell their body...

Meh, if we go by the prevailing standards, he doesn't become scum of the earth unless he also "helps" women under the magic consent age of 18, then suddenly he's a pedophile. (If this article was about Japan and the practice of enjo kosai(sp), where it's literally schoolgirls selling themselves for money to buy designer goods or whatever, I'd bet there would be real outrage. It would also be old news.)

That being said, that just doesn't sound like he needs to delude himself of anything. Otherwise there's a hundred and one other possible combinations of conditional donations that could simply be classed as "why not just give them the money"

Anyway, it looks like a given that the girl interviewed didn't exactly enjoy doing it (at least initially). I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea that this is equivalent to not enjoying cleaning toilets or dealing with idiots over a phone at a call center for a living, and of course the article is slanted in that direction, I'm sure like others as said you can also see this as a good deal. (would I have slept around for money to pay of my debts? I'm a fat male nerd so I imagine the market is sadly limited.)

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Whoopdedoo, to be honest. College girls have been paying off their student loans by working as Hooters chicks, strippers, massage parlour attendants and escorts since before I was born. Now they got the internet to make their escort hookups easier and reach out to a larger customer base, it's just the evolution of the game.

I stand by what I said in the other form: good for them, as long as they have their health and legal issues covered. Entrepreneurs are the backbone of the nation, and college is bullshit, doubly so with bad debt. We need more people willing to go out and start their own businesses, especially ones with viable markets.

It might be a safer bet in the long run to learn a skilled trade, but if there's a market for sex too, well, there you go.

That being said, that just doesn't sound like he needs to delude himself of anything. Otherwise there's a hundred and one other possible combinations of conditional donations that could simply be classed as "why not just give them the money"

Anyway, it looks like a given that the girl interviewed didn't exactly enjoy doing it (at least initially). I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea that this is equivalent to not enjoying cleaning toilets or dealing with idiots over a phone at a call center for a living, and of course the article is slanted in that direction, I'm sure like others as said you can also see this as a good deal. (would I have slept around for money to pay of my debts? I'm a fat male nerd so I imagine the market is sadly limited.)

INHERENT N&P POLLUTION.

[LadyTevar]

Neitztchean? This isn't Testing. Add something of worth, or get out of the thread.

[LadyTevar]

I myself wanted to have a mature discussion about this situation, because it is a serious problem with young college women, and I would be willing to bet is limited only to young women. I do not believe these men would be paying young men for sex like this.

It is not rape, as there is (seemingly) informed consent by the young woman. It is exploitation of a vulnerable segment of our population, no different from the Western European woman being tricked into 'jobs' here in America. At least the Website seems to be more honest, and the College women are going into this expecting to give out sex. But it is still something that most women would find degrading and hate themselves for it.

Worse, with our failing economy, many young college women may believe this is one of the few options open to them. Everyone wants quick easy money, and 'escorts', stripping, and prostitution is certainly offering the money. The problem is how few of these young women understand the price. How can that be changed?

[Flagg]

You honestly don't think an old rich homosexual would hire a male prostitute paying off college debt?

[FaxModem1]

You honestly don't think an old rich homosexual would hire a male prostitute paying off college debt?

They would, I've actually gotten an offer once or twice. Frankly, thank goodness I enlisted, otherwise I wouldn't be going through college right now.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Neitztchean? This isn't Testing. Add something of worth, or get out of the thread.

'Of worth'? What is there to discuss? 'Rising tuition means students take shitty jobs' isn't news. The only real thoughts that KlavoHunter has bothered to offer on the topic were in Testing, to reveal that his objection to this is just based on his bizarre neuroses about the sex industry. Should we be discussing that tuition costs are too high? Is there any debate as to whether they aren't? And if that is the topic, why should our centerpiece be the most lurid article he could find tangentially related to it? Unless it's actually about the revelation that powerful men may still desire attractive women, and that in Klavo's world this is somehow inherently bad.

Wait, doesn't the U.S. Military pay for college tuition? My Lord, the government is coercing young men into killing themselves in Iraq! The appalling callousness of paying people to do things they decided for themselves that they wanted to do.

Really, this is just absurd sensationalizing of one result of high tuition costs that would still exist even if tuition costs were lower or even non-existent. Turns out that there is somehow still a supply and demand for escorts in Canada and Europe, shockingly enough.

But no, clearly the issue at stake is that these ROBBER BARONS are STEALING OUR WOMEN.

[AniThyng]

You honestly don't think an old rich homosexual would hire a male prostitute paying off college debt?

They would, I've actually gotten an offer once or twice. Frankly, thank goodness I enlisted, otherwise I wouldn't be going through college right now.

So, better to possibly be sent to risk life and limb in a distant battlefield than take on sex work? What is your hangup over it?

Sorry, being more than a little facetious there. Clearly it's not going to be anything like Bruce Bigalow, Male Gigolo. Which was pretty hilarious a movie. But I digress.

On a more serious note, while its true that social stigmatization of sex work is a problem, and it's rationally hard to argue that there's anything inherently wrong with the whole concept, is that really a satisfactory answer? "Don't feel bad about it, it's just a job and it's less soul-crushing than working retail! Why I'd love to do it if I could!" comes of as condescending given who is saying it [in these threads].

powerful men may still desire attractive women, and that in Klavo's world this is somehow inherently bad.

Actually, didn't we just have a long trainwreck of a thread somewhere about the problem with powerful men (like a certain former head of the IMF) and how they wield power over women? It may not be inherently bad, but it's not without plenty of attached issues isn't it?

[Dooey Jo]

The debate has merit in that if people have to actively whore themselves out to afford going to school, it may be shocking enough to wake other people up to the need for serious change. Of course, it won't if everyone pretends that "oh yeah, it's just another sucky (rofl) job hurf durf", but I believe America at large is not yet at that point. And sending poor people off to fight pointless expensive wars, instead of just giving them a state-funded job or whatever, isn't exactly great or necessary either.

Worse, with our failing economy, many young college women may believe this is one of the few options open to them. Everyone wants quick easy money, and 'escorts', stripping, and prostitution is certainly offering the money. The problem is how few of these young women understand the price. How can that be changed?

I'm sure most of them do know that they won't feel very good about it, even if they may not know exactly what consequences it will/can have. The acute problem is really the economic inequality making the most vulnerable decide that it is a viable route to get out of a bad situation. You can change that with better redistribution policies.

The larger problem is the sexual morals saying it's okay, even apparently a huge turn-on, to use your money and power to force your own sexuality upon someone who would not otherwise allow it. Here you have a whole hoard of issues to fix, like power structures and blaming the victims, and weird puritanical ideas saying women don't really have sexual desires of their own unless they are sluts, in which case they apparently are up for anything and anyone. Most importantly, people need to realise that people are people, with feelings and desires and all the bullshit it means to be a person. Now, lots of people would like to say that such things cannot be changed, maybe because of biological woo-woo. Fortunately, these people are full of shit. Puritanism may always have been the norm in the US, but as evidenced by the rest of the world, it need not be so. People historically have believed they could use their power to do and demand all sorts of things from people with less, but while maybe some corporatists still think they have a right to lock workers in a factory and set it on fire, civil action and laws have made the number significantly decrease. Similarly, anti-spanking laws around the world have decreased the number of parents who think they have some sort of right to physically threaten children.

In light of that, Sweden enacted a law that would criminalise the "consumers" of prostitution instead of the prostitutes themselves, which appears to have similar and "significant effects" (source in Swedish), hopefully to make people believe they do not have a right to buy themselves out of what would probably otherwise have been a harassment suit, or even rape conviction. At least, it has made more people think that the prostitutes aren't the problem. But obviously laws aren't enough; you need people to get engaged in moral and ethical discussions as well, to make them know what the laws are for. Otherwise you just get a ton of idiots screaming about feminazis (ps, you'll get this anyway).


tl/dr; you need to get at the demand. It is hard work, especially in America.

[Thanas]

Prostitution is older than humanity itself so trying to abolish it is kinda pointless. The swedish law has a lot of problems and is not an ideal solution.

Now, the real issue when it comes to prostitution is limiting abuse. In that light the website seems to be rather upfront with regards to what they are offering and I am willing to be there is actually more abuse going on in "standard" prostitution.

[cosmicalstorm]

The Swedish law didn't really change much. Prostitution just moved to the internet, where it has been thriving regardless of the current economic situation. As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no doubt at all that many women (not all) are perfectly willing to trade sex for money and I suspect that this phenomenon is as old as primates themselves.

[aerius]

Yes, kids are being forced into making bad decisions here. But the main bad decision wasn't escorting a rich fellow. It was enrolling in college.

If I knew back in '98 that the entry requirements for my job was a college diploma, any college diploma, I wouldn't have gone into CompSci. I would've taken a 2 year course in finger painting or leisure studies from the cheapest place I could find and spent the money I saved on hookers and blow.

[The Spartan]

I've heard/seen multiple examples of the good/bad sides of the college coin.

Example one: a radio DJ on my morning drive (technically the DJ's 2nd sidekick, but whatever) has a daughter about to go off to college. She wants to go to Kansas State, iirc, since a lot of her friends are going there. Problem is, she wants to be a kindergarten teacher. She doesn't really understand what the problem is, though the DJ in question and his wife are trying to gently talk her out of it. All things being equal there's nothing wrong with being a kindergarten teacher, but out of state tuition at K-state to be a kindergarten teacher would be effectively unpayable.

Same radio program, a fella called in complaining about how he'd dropped 150 Gs on tuition and now had a crappy job he couldn't pay off. I couldn't help, but say to the radio in my car, rather smugly and maybe a bit unfairly, that it was his own damn fault for going to ITT Tech. There's nothing wrong with not going to traditional university per se, but if you go to ITT or Devry or whatever you better have realistic expectations about what you're getting and what employers are going to perceive of your eduction. (Hint: it's not like the commercials; you can bet those are exceptions. And you're going to have debt. A lot.)

Then there's my sister. She got a double bachelors in art and English from one of the top tier universities here in Texas (say what you will about public education here, we do have several very good universities) and she dropped a lot of money (as did our parents) on tuition and student loans. Needless to say you can't get much of a job with those particular degrees unless you're planning on teaching and even then you're not going to be earning enough to pay those loans off quickly. So she went and got her Masters in Information Systems, I think it was called. Not computers mind you, it was for learning how to organize, preserve and catalog important documents. Basically a high end librarian. She's got a decent job now, but for what she spent on school, well, my mom confided in me recently that she (my mom that is) didn't feel, strictly from a financial standpoint, that they got a good return on investment and wished my sister had either stayed with her original plan oh these many years ago to go to med school (long story that I won't recount) or to have gone into nursing school. Not that she, or I, would say that to my sister.

On the other hand, there's me, on the good side of the coin. I got a double bachelors as well, but my majors, math and mechanical engineering, are the kind of things that are generally in demand. My recent prolonged unemployment* notwithstanding, it's turned out very well for me. I love what I do and it comes with financial rewards that provide a return on the investment that makes it worth the money my parents and I spent and the loans I'm paying off.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is more less what Destructionator XIII is trying to say: People need to have more realistic expectations from college and to stop looking down at something like trade school. There's nothing wrong with, for example, being a welder or machinist. Yeah, people with degrees, on average, make more over their life time than without, but like the daughter of DJ above, people need to put some thought into how much they're going to spend on tuition, fees, books, housing, food, etc. before they go to college and compare it to what they're going to be doing with their degree. More importantly, that information and process, that weighing of pros and cons, needs to be inserted into societies attitude about going to college. It reminds me of a offhand line from a sitcom I watched as a child (Home Improvement) and the main character was discussing with his wife what their three sons were going to do after high school and they both agreed that the three would go to college and he added on the end of that, "...or a good trade school." That sort of thing needs to be inserted into more and more discussions about high school. There's also the issue with public education across the country, but I won't recount that here.




*that had do with my first employer and the sub-discipline they stuck me in than with the degrees I got. That job, in the short term, made me less marketable, frustratingly enough. Though that's not a problem anymore.

[Surlethe]

Why are people going to college?

Here is why people are going to college.

[Dooey Jo]

Prostitution is older than humanity itself so trying to abolish it is kinda pointless.

You seem to agree that prostitution is problematic, so why would you not try to get rid of it as much as possible? Surely you do not think it's pointless to try to abolish other "really old" undesirable things, like slavery or murder. That different countries have very different rates of prostitution "usage" would suggest to me that it can in fact be changed.

The swedish law has a lot of problems and is not an ideal solution.

Very few things are ideal solutions, but if you believe that to get to the root of the issue, you need to change people's attitudes rather than just reduce harm, I would think it's more effective than both total criminalisation and decriminalisation.

The Swedish law didn't really change much. Prostitution just moved to the internet, where it has been thriving regardless of the current economic situation. As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no doubt at all that many women (not all) are perfectly willing to trade sex for money and I suspect that this phenomenon is as old as primates themselves.

As evidenced by this very thread, prostitution would have moved onto the internet regardless, where it remains quite visible. The afore-mentioned study states that street prostitution in Sweden has gone down significantly, while there is no indication that the internet scene has increased more than in other countries. It also states that the percentage of people who claim to have visited prostitutes has decreased (from 13.6% to 8%). The attitudes about such a law also went from ~30% in favour in -96, to ~80% in favour in 2000, where it's stayed since. So to say that the law hasn't really changed anything seems to beg the question of what did, because change undoubtedly has occurred.

And that's awesome that you think "many women" do that, but what bearing do they have on all the "many more" women who do it out of necessity, real or perceived (due to childhood trauma, etc.)? Would they consider abstaining from such trading in favour of facilitating a change in society's attitudes, rather than indulging in the current? Why would you even bring up primates, a subject I suspect you are most ignorant of?

[Simon_Jester]

Hmmm.

I am no expert, but it seems to me that one of the big problems with prostitution is exploitation: the fact that prostitutes have to do business in an environment full of crime and predatory classes of criminals who take advantage of them.

"Just moving prostitution to the Internet" might actually help to avoid that problem, because it leaves pimps with a big smoking hole in the middle of their business problem.

Mind you, that has nothing to do with other problems with prostitution, of which there are plenty.

[Dooey Jo]

I am no expert, but it seems to me that one of the big problems with prostitution is exploitation: the fact that prostitutes have to do business in an environment full of crime and predatory classes of criminals who take advantage of them.

"Just moving prostitution to the Internet" might actually help to avoid that problem, because it leaves pimps with a big smoking hole in the middle of their business problem.

Websites of the OP kind, where men are advertising money in exchange for women, may help with that, but many (probably most) websites are the other way around. They are often set up by pimps showcasing the women they are pimping out.