European refugee crisis thread

[amigocabal]

To be honest, I can understand some of those owners considering how some refugees (predominantly Bangladeshi and sub-sahara Africans) treat the refugee quarters.

Source?

Recent spiegel article, print edition, about conditions in a greek house turned into refugee center. Apparently no shits were given about cleaning trash up, but plenty of shits were given outside the sanitary facilities.

salm, you should have specified and asked for a credible source. And the Spiegel hasn't been in 2 decades.

So most people are so poor they cannot buy a home either at all or without submitting to crushing mortgage debts? Maybe the exorbitant price of housing is related to that, just a random thought. And the fact that the rich only build houses for the rich does not explain why there is a huge housing shortage in Germany. Why is the government not doing more? Merkelnomics, I guess.

As of now, the state assistance when purchasing homes is laughable. But I think the state should really provide more cheap housing than it does now, and more in property than in rent.

Apartment ownership is preferrable to maintaining a huge wealthy class of rentiers through exorbitant rents. "Deutsche Annington" my ass, a bunch of English thieves making money on the people's plight, bying decrepit housing and doing shit nothing just squeezing max profits. Really, that is not the vision of "social market economy" even, but the exact opposite of it.

The Germans were not as poor before, but the decline in the purchasing power of their wages hit the nation hard. And, quite obviously, instead of stepping in to alleviate this problem, German government just distanced itself from it, like the damn Thatcherites.

Meh. There isn't housing shortage in Germany, there is a distribution issue. There is a massive migration from rural areas to cities. In places like Hamburg and Munich you are happy to live in a better broom closet, in some eastern states you have half empty villages where people curse if they inherit one because of the cost to maintain it* Those are recent changes and too fast to easily compensate. Especially if combined with neo-liberal politics that cut social housing, as has been done since the 90s.
But the solution is not home ownership. That only leads to people anchored to specific areas, hindering future adjustment to economic and social changes, and to environment destruction and dissolution of communities by urban sprawl.
A much better idea is public housing and laws for protection of tenants, supplemented by housing cooperatives. Most Nordic countries have developed that idea very well. In Germany about 10% of all housing space is run by co-operatives.

*Theoretically you could send refugees there, but the villages with empty houses are those with no jobs and the most xenophobic locals.

This does beg a very important question.

What barriers exist that would deter some developers from building new homes in Munich and Hamburg?

And the fact that the rich only build houses for the rich does not explain why there is a huge housing shortage in Germany.

Is there any reason why in Germany, the rich are only building for the rich? What conditions in Germany makes it profitable to build houses solely for the rich? In Houston, Texas, the average price of a single family home on a quarter acre lot is $152,000, and it is unlikely developers in Houston are any less greedy than developers in Hamburg.

[Broomstick]

How the hell are refugees going to afford $152,000?

Hell, I'm fully employed and I can't afford that.

----

We're getting reports refugees in France are trying to walk the Chunnel to the UK? And 2000+ drowned this year crossing the sea?

I think Europe as a whole is going to have to decide to either really find a way to cope with the flood... or get brutal. Because these people aren't going to stop. They're more afraid of ISIS than the disapproval and disdain of Europe. They're running away from people who shoot men in front of their families and then sell the women and children into sexual slavery, who behead people or burn them alive then post the video on YouTube, who use poison gas and who seem to come up with a new outrage on a regular basis.

Yeah, I'd risk a dangerous boat ride and life as a despised minority in a foreign country rather than face ISIS, too. At least if you're alive in a place that doesn't view wanton butchery as a good thing there's hope things might improve, or you could travel further on to someplace less hostile. If the choice is a mass grave or a chance at life... most people will take a stab at life. It's a gamble my grandparents took. Those of their family who didn't do lie in mass graves. Or their ashes do.

I don't think the people risking death to flee the Middle East right now care what Europe thinks - they feel they're running for their lives. Even if Europe could succeed in locking down their borders they would just take riskier voyages to more distant places and die in even greater numbers.

[amigocabal]

How the hell are refugees going to afford $152,000?

Hell, I'm fully employed and I can't afford that.

By taking out a residential mortgage. Rates are as low as 4.125% for 30-year fixed rate, which means principal and interest is about $621.52 for a $100,000 loan.

[His Divine Shadow]

I agree with this; I simply think it desirable to subsidize ownership of flats rather than free-standing houses.

I remember hearing about a recent finnish study that said the increased consumerism in urban areas vs. rural / suburban areas offset the environmental gains made up by not having to heat a house or not having a car, and that the gap had been shrinking because modern houses are more environmentally friendly than ever. It made quite a few people angry and was called a shit study because it was obviously wrong.

Well, it seems non-obvious that you'd get "increased consumerism" in a society just because a person who otherwise would have moved to a house moves into an apartment...

Now, rural dwellers are a different story- but those are often relatively low-income people.

So it makes a big difference whether you're comparing 'rural versus urban' or whether you're comparing 'live in a house versus live in an apartment.' And I was doing the latter.

Seems to me all the advantages of the city are in one way or another about consuming products or services and having close and easy access to lots of them. The study also compared those of similar income. When you live farther away even if you have the money it's harder to consume because you have to arrange and trip and make it so, so you are more likely to be less spontaneous in your consumerism. I found that pretty obvious once the idea was raised and I started thinking about it.

And houses are getting more efficient all the time, and when electric cars become common it will really skew the figures. And the internet allows a type of consumerism of information just as well for a rural as city dweller, and access to the same web stores.

[Broomstick]

How the hell are refugees going to afford $152,000?

Hell, I'm fully employed and I can't afford that.

By taking out a residential mortgage. Rates are as low as 4.125% for 30-year fixed rate, which means principal and interest is about $621.52 for a $100,000 loan.

You're assuming those refugees will be fully employed then? I suppose you don't know that refugees generally are not employed for some months after they arrive anywhere, and generally for the rest of their lives earn minimal wages? That is the norm. Again, what makes you think they're going to qualify for a loan like that?

Oh, and nice backpedaling on the amount - you state $152,000 and have now dialed it back to $100k - where are your refugees going to come up with the $52,000 difference?

One of the reasons refugee housing gets trashed is because, due to the cost of housing, you wind up with ten or a dozen people in a place intended for 2 or 4. Demanding newly arrived refugees purchase a residence for six figures is not a viable approach. Not to mention tying them down in one location when really leaving them more free to move to better opportunities elsewhere would have multiple benefits.

[Welf]

This does beg a very important question.

What barriers exist that would deter some developers from building new homes in Munich and Hamburg?

And the fact that the rich only build houses for the rich does not explain why there is a huge housing shortage in Germany.

Is there any reason why in Germany, the rich are only building for the rich? What conditions in Germany makes it profitable to build houses solely for the rich? In Houston, Texas, the average price of a single family home on a quarter acre lot is $152,000, and it is unlikely developers in Houston are any less greedy than developers in Hamburg.

You can't compare Munich or Hamburg with Houston, you should compare it with LA or New York. For 152.000 USD/136.000 EUR you get an apartment with an area between 20 and 35 sqm (that is between 230 and 375 square foot). And that price is without 6% tax and 7% for a parasite of a real estate agent*. Hamburg is a bit better. But in those places apartments for refugees means Germans won't have a place to go; which sucks if you have a family or want to start one.

*I may have recently looked into buying an apartment

[K. A. Pital]

What Welf says is true. New apartments cost exorbitant sums of money or are very tiny (the price per sqm is then even higher, offensively so). Used 45-55 sqm apartments in Frankfurt and suburbs, which is not as outrageous as München, can easily cost 90-100k Eur and upwards. (Of course, buying new is not advisable as there is a loss of value unless very well bought; I would say 20-25 yo apartments in good houses stop losing value and even appreciate with time in many areas, so choosing then is wise, these are just my personal ideas.) Rents offer very high 5,5-10% annual incomes on used properties, so it makes apartments very attractive for rentiers.

What conditions make it so - I haven't yet investigated thoroughly, the above is just random thoughts.

[cmdrjones]

How the hell are refugees going to afford $152,000?

Hell, I'm fully employed and I can't afford that.

----

We're getting reports refugees in France are trying to walk the Chunnel to the UK? And 2000+ drowned this year crossing the sea?

I think Europe as a whole is going to have to decide to either really find a way to cope with the flood... or get brutal. Because these people aren't going to stop. They're more afraid of ISIS than the disapproval and disdain of Europe. They're running away from people who shoot men in front of their families and then sell the women and children into sexual slavery, who behead people or burn them alive then post the video on YouTube, who use poison gas and who seem to come up with a new outrage on a regular basis.

Yeah, I'd risk a dangerous boat ride and life as a despised minority in a foreign country rather than face ISIS, too. At least if you're alive in a place that doesn't view wanton butchery as a good thing there's hope things might improve, or you could travel further on to someplace less hostile. If the choice is a mass grave or a chance at life... most people will take a stab at life. It's a gamble my grandparents took. Those of their family who didn't do lie in mass graves. Or their ashes do.

I don't think the people risking death to flee the Middle East right now care what Europe thinks - they feel they're running for their lives. Even if Europe could succeed in locking down their borders they would just take riskier voyages to more distant places and die in even greater numbers.

So... Enoch Powell had a point?

[Broomstick]

To the extent that mass migrations of people and foreign immigrants will, if of sufficient volume, change the complexion, ethnic make-up, and society to which they emigrate, yes, he had a point. And that scares the living fuck out of some people.

A nation has two choices when faced with such an influx: they can repel the "invaders" - which will result in many deaths because not all of those people will be able to go somewhere else and at some point the resistance will become violent.

The other alternative is to accept that change happens and attempt to mold it in a positive fashion.

In reality, you usually get some of both.

Personally, I think that in the long-run immigration and cultural flux is a good thing (though there are unpleasant episodes along the way). That doesn't mean it is always easy and there aren't some things lost as well as gained.

I think Powell spoke of a very real fear among some of his fellow citizens and got shouted down and punished for speaking of that fear. Which is no way to address such a concern.

Right now several million people are either on their way to Europe, or could easily decide to attempt a move there in the near future. Europe would be better off if the various nations figured out a way to deal with the horde sooner rather than later, and the whole would be better off if the burden was equitably shared among nations (however that might be defined) rather than foisted on a just a few while others locked down their borders.

Or the nations of the world could simply refuse refuge to those currently fleeing Syria, then turn their backs so they won't have to watch those people die. I think that would be an immoral choice, but I think there is ample historical precedent of that sort of behavior that it can't be ruled out this time.

[ray245]

It's not necessarily that easy to alleviate people's fear when many of the new refugees have no means to form any strong social bonds with the local population. There aren't simply that many social institutions(e.t. a church) where the locals and the newly arrived migrants and refugees can actively learn the customs of each other. It becomes even worse when people perceive migrants and refugees to be forming ghettos which is just going scare people even more, irregardless of whether that is an rational behaviour or not.

Language barrier, different customs and different beliefs is all going to alienate both parties.

[The Xeelee]

The language barrier is why immigration is so "bad" here in the UK, the refugees speak English and so a lot of them want to come to Britain to avoid language barriers.

[Thanas]

Speaking of Britain, while Angela Merkel has decided to waive all asylum requirements for people from Syria, Theresa May opened her mouth and spewed garbage. Can one count the false statements in the article?.

[The Xeelee]

Trust me when I say I am not with the Conservatives on anything, nevermind this.

[Thanas]

Wasn't specifically directed at you, more at the current British political climate.

My apologies for not making that clear.

[The Xeelee]

True. There are many of us that want to do more but people are being too easily manipulated by the right wing media here.

[madd0ct0r]

Theresa May is a national embarrassment.

[ray245]

The language barrier is why immigration is so "bad" here in the UK, the refugees speak English and so a lot of them want to come to Britain to avoid language barriers.

That doesn't necessarily mean every one would integrate easily into the British culture despite knowing the language. Sometimes I think that the fact that everyone speaks English around the world actually makes it harder for everyone else to assimilate because migrants never have to go to language schools to learn about the different cultural values and customs. Just because someone learn to speak English doesn't necessarily mean they know what does it mean to be someone who grew up in UK and Europe.

Not having any friends or any social avenue to make friends with any locals doesn't help them much as well.

[The Xeelee]

I never said that?

[ray245]

I never said that?

I never said you did, just elaborating my point further.

[Thunderfire]

Germany should stop building houses for the rich and build more affordable housing. This would alleviate the problem for the populace as well, who are what, 53% renting and not having own apartment/house?

Affordable housing is available in germany. Buying a house for 40k-80k EUR is possible if you are willing to commute.

[K. A. Pital]

A house for 40k? Probably in the middle of nowhere, like 30-50 km off Leipzig, heh, where you have to spend a huge part of your life driving a car on the Autobahn every day, expending your life in traffic jams and on the road. I know, this sounds crazy, but I've even met people who commute 100-200 km to work. That's how bad the housing thing is. And... That is not normal. It's sickening that people have to utterly waste the time of their lives like that and makes the 8-hour day fight of the European labour movement into a total joke. 80k Eur is already a lot for most working-class families with one earner. It takes over 8 years to save that much under the savings norm of 40-60% of total income - which, as I've learned, normal people (=Europeans) here do not do anyway, only weird people like us Russians or the Asians are somehow inclined to save like crazy. Of course, it is easy to make 80k if you are a banker, indeed, these make 200k per year easily, so the entry price for new construction in cities is between 200k and 400k depending on city (that for apartments) and older properties will not cost less than 80k (used to be 60-70k in worst parts of town after the 2009-2011 housing price collapse, but now it is nowhere near the numbers).

I have not seen used houses below 135k and new houses below 250-300k. Except for the ones literally in the middle of nowhere, not just a village.

[salm]

Why is this even relevant? A refugee won´t be able aford a house, period. No matter if it´s 400k or 40k. And no bank will lend money to a refugee.

[Broomstick]

Yes.

Despite the worship of home ownership they reaches near hysteria at times, there is and will continue to be a need for affordable rental housing. Not everyone will remain in an area long term. Not everyone has the resources to own a home. Not everyone wants to own a home.

Refugees need shelter, they don't need to be saddled with decades-long debt.

[K. A. Pital]

Affordable rents in cities with economic opportunities for refugees are also out of the question. Usually (best case scenario) refugees will speak bad English and very bad German after the what, 22-hour introductory shock course. They'd be only able to work on jobs requiring almost no language (hauling crates for large shops), which are usually locates in big towns or well-off small towns, and neither is very affordable as far as rent goes. Or they could work in sales in large cities where Arabic, etc. also matter, and rents will be high, too.

Most likely scenario is more exclusion and ghettoes, though, because integration takes time (and there is not much time) and because just as banks don't give credit to refugees, neither are capitalists eager to hire them, except as the lowest-paid menial labour. Many are not willing to offer even that.

And there are no jobs for refugees in villages where homes cost 40k and rents are 200 Eur per month. There are no jobs there even for local youth, most of the time, and certainly not for refugees.

[Starglider]

A company recently tried to build a block of 'affordable' flats near my wife's parent's house in northern Germany. Due to the extreme construction costs, 'affordable' was relative, but they tried anyway. The company had been around for a decade and had built a dozen blocks of flats in the area. They bought a one acre brownfield piece of land which looked fairly simple to clean up. However as clearance started, more and more environmental restrictions came into place. Specialists were mandated, reviews, special protocols, delays, denials. Three years after they started trying to clear the piece of land, the company had spent all its capital trying to appease the beurecrats went bankrupt. They won't be building any more flats.

The UK has totalitarian central control of construction, with a planning system packed with petty tyrants who see their job as imposing stasis and finding an excuse to deny every attempt of the populace to house itself. Germany has something very similar but with four times as much inscrutable regulation. Literally, the UK legal requirements for new construction take 25cm of shelf space in hardcopy form, the German equivalent takes over a metre. Eastern European nations are an order of magnitude less complex.

Even moreso than the UK, the German population has voted themselves into a housing shortage. More regulation always good. More beurecracy always good. Cost irrelevant, just call it eco-friendly and no one can dare put a price on it. The price difference between 'luxury' and 'non-luxury' accomodation is getting squeezed down to the cost of imported granite counter-tops and a set of 'designer' taps. There is no concept of a tradeoff between minimum standards of housing and being able to afford housing at all, there is just more regulation good, more beurecracy good. This trend has easily outpaced efficiency improvements in the cost of construction and in cheap areas is even outpacing rise in land values.

Most refugees are probably under the radical assumption that if you need shelter, you can find a free spot and build a shelter out of whatever materials you can find. This basic human right that existed throughout the vast majority of human history is of course vaporised in northern Europe, the concept of being able to live without filling out a mountain of forms incomprehensible and dangerous to the establishment.