Earthquake off Japan

[Duckie]

Nonetheless, in even the current situation, Tokyo itself would not be in significant danger.

Let alone the west coast of the United fucking States, which has a huge barrier known as the Pacific known to fast travel.

[Raxmei]

On the topic of iodine pills, up until a few hours ago when one seller undercut everyone else by a factor of ten, IOSAT potassium iodide tablets were going for upwards of $250 a pack on Amazon. You can still see some of the inflated prices by doing a search for iosat and clicking the sellers list. The normal price for this product asked by its manufacturer, checked by going to their website and clicking the order online button, is $10. It is possible that panic buying has prompted some merchants to increase their price in an attempt to take advantage of this sudden spike in demand.

No, I haven't actually bought any.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, it appears they are using Chinooks to drop off water.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12768791

[starslayer]

So. Pretty consistent, which doesn't mean a whole lot with the unreliable information coming out. What I'm befuddled about is why are all the temperatures reported by the IAEA are below boiling? Where the fuck is the water going if it's not being boiled away? Unit 4's spent fuel pool temperature is listed as constant between the 14th and 15th of March, which is really odd if you're dumping huge amounts of heat into it. My guess: Their temperature sensor is fucked up and is reporting the wrong temperature when it's actually already boiling. But then we're at a loss to explain why Unit 5's SFP temperature is still rising while simultaneously losing huge amounts of water.

You do not need boiling to have significant evaporation. This is the spent fuel pool, remember, so it's not under any pressure which would prevent that. I don't have time to run the numbers/good physical intuition in that area to figure out if the water losses are plausible from evaporation alone and not actual boiling, unfortunately. Given how rapid the rate of water loss is, I'd be inclined to agree with you about the temperature sensor malfunctioning, though.

Are there any calculations to back up your claim? Normally, I would agree, but the Japanese have like tens of tons of spent fuel rods at the site of the nuclear reactor from the 20+ years that the reactor was in operation. How does this quantity compare to Chernobyl, they were operational for only 2 years right?

I do not have any hard numbers, no, but I do have observations of Chernobyl, which released about 1/1000th to 1/100th as much radioactivity as all nuclear initiations in history combined. As phongn said, the Chernobyl disaster was caused by the reactor core itself exploding (three times, no less; first hydrogen, then steam, and then possibly from a criticality accident - no one is quite sure) and subsequently burning. The spent fuel pools were never involved. In addition, spent fuel is only kept in the pools for as long as it needs to be before it will be safe in dry storage; IIRC, this period is generally 1-2 years, at which point it is usually sealed in dry casks. So 20 years of fuel does not build up in the pools, even if it does remain on the plant grounds.

[Sea Skimmer]

Some plants move cooled fuel into dry cask storage after a few years, but most plants have simply kept filling up the spent fuel pool until it was full, then start moving to building dry casks. Many have no reached that point, and so if its a nation that doesn't process all the fuel ever used is still in the pool Building dry casks can be a licensing nightmare so most companies try to avoid them as long as possible. Anyway if the fuel has been in a pool for 10-20 years it's not going to be all that hot and dangerous anymore anyway.

[phongn]

Britain has already had two nuclear disasters, Chernobyl, which did irradiate parts of Wales that live stock raised there are not safe for human consumption, and in 1957, the Windscale fire, which was hushed up to a large degree when it occoured. It isn't so irrational when you've had two accidents in living memory, is it?

It may be understandable but it is still irrational.

Well, it appears they are using Chinooks to drop off water.

They stopped after four tries; they're going to use ground vehicles.

[Exonerate]

You do not need boiling to have significant evaporation. This is the spent fuel pool, remember, so it's not under any pressure which would prevent that. I don't have time to run the numbers/good physical intuition in that area to figure out if the water losses are plausible from evaporation alone and not actual boiling, unfortunately. Given how rapid the rate of water loss is, I'd be inclined to agree with you about the temperature sensor malfunctioning, though.

Hm, you're right. Using an empirical correlation intended for swimming pools gives me the right order of magnitude. Still, the difference is mostly academic - water gone is water gone. The lower temperature hardly changes the end result at all.

I hope they can manage to bring up the water levels in pools 3 and 4, because before long, 5 and 6 might need it as well. Trying to keep two pools from running dry is hard enough, never mind four. They're apparently aiming to restore power by Thursday morning, which would be an immense boon if it meant working water pumps again.

[His Divine Shadow]

Japanese are angry at american statements:

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/78865.html

Japan baffled by alarming U.S. statement, says reactor info delayed

TOKYO, March 17, Kyodo

Japan expressed confusion Thursday over an alarming finding by the U.S. nuclear regulatory body on the ongoing crisis at a nuclear power plant in Fukushima Prefecture and said Tokyo was somewhat slow in passing information along to Washington.

''There was a slight delay conveying to the U.S. side the information about whether or not there is water'' in a pool holding spent nuclear fuel rods at the quake-hit Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told a news conference.

His comment came in response to a senior U.S. nuclear official's remark Wednesday in Washington that there was no water left in the pool at the plant's No. 4 reactor, posing a risk of high-level radiation emission from the fuel rods exposed to the atmosphere.

Gregory Jaczko, chairman of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, told a congressional hearing, ''There is no water in the spent fuel pool and we believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures.''

But a Ground Self-Defense Force chopper, which doused the overheating spent nuclear fuel pool with water Thursday morning at the No. 3 reactor, found that water is left in the pond at the No. 4 unit, according to the plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Co.

Jaczko also told Congress that spent fuel pools at the No. 2 and No. 3 reactors are also developing problems. The NRC has dispatched experts to Japan to provide Tokyo with assistance.

Based on the NRC's finding, the U.S. Embassy in Japan has asked American citizens living within an 80-kilometer radius of the Fukushima No. 1 power station to evacuate as a precautionary measure.

The Japanese government is currently setting the evacuation zone as areas within a 20-km radius of the plant and advises people outside the zone but within a 30-km radius to stay indoors.

Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said it believes the U.S. evacuation recommendation is ''not appropriate'' and will bolster information sharing with U.S. authorities so as not to cause misunderstandings.

Edano said that after the NRC chief made the remarks, the Japanese government provided U.S. experts with more detailed data.

==Kyodo

[Winston Blake]

A simple and clear explanation of the situation at the Fukushima nuclear plants.



Apparently it was intended to let children know what was going on.

[wautd]

With all talks about this nuclear disaster, one should not forget the current humanitarian disaster. Next to the possible 10000 deaths, there are currently half a million people (you read that right) that currently trying to survive in packed evacuation centra or open air, under freezing temperatures and with a shortage of fresh water and food. A potentional outbreak of cholera or tyhphus may kill many more than whats happening in the nuclear power plant, but this seems to get much less media attention.

[Chardok]

Look wautd, who gives a fuck about typhus or a humanitarian disaster when there is potential for a repeat of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined? There's no telling when all that radioactive is going to blow; it's getting really hot and there's no water so there's nothing now stopping the inevitable but the will of the almighty and prayers of millions, so I'll thank you to stay focused on the more immediate, pressing concern.

There's plenty of food and water the world can send to Japan but we have to wait until the nuclear threat is delat with before we can even start sending assistance. Even the armor plating of an aircraft carrier and her battle group wasn't enough to stand up to the radioactive (as evidenced by them moving farther away from Japan) so what chance have unarmored food and medicine delivery have? Their drivers will be dead before they reach the heavily affected areas! This is all Obama's fault for being such a pussy to the terrorists and North Korea.[/Yahoo! News commenter mode]


PS - it's a completely valid point. It really makes me sick because it's so glaringly obvious that (at least american) news outlets are just absolutely sucking the cock of the "ZOMG NUCLEAR" headline and just gagging on it as they ram it down the throats of the uninformed uninformed trogolodyte eye holes of the average western viewer/reader, while simultaneously pre-wiriting the articles that will be published after the power plant is dealt with. I can see it now "Oh, while the world was so closely following the nuclear DISASTER/CRISIS/APOCALYPSE - 10,000 people died from a combination of disease/hunger/hypothermia" (Incinuating that you, the vewier/reader are to blame for their deaths) Shame on you for consuming every syllable of NUCLEAR that the news outlets regurgitated and hunkering oin your bunker because it's the end times when we told you to and you should've been sending campbell's soup to those poor dead babies.

[His Divine Shadow]

I suppose I should read the WHOLE thing in the future.

[salm]

PS - it's a completely valid point. It really makes me sick because it's so glaringly obvious that (at least american) news outlets are just absolutely sucking the cock of the "ZOMG NUCLEAR" headline and just gagging on it as they ram it down the throats of the uninformed uninformed trogolodyte eye holes of the average western viewer/reader, while simultaneously pre-wiriting the articles that will be published after the power plant is dealt with. I can see it now "Oh, while the world was so closely following the nuclear DISASTER/CRISIS/APOCALYPSE - 10,000 people died from a combination of disease/hunger/hypothermia" (Incinuating that you, the vewier/reader are to blame for their deaths) Shame on you for consuming every syllable of NUCLEAR that the news outlets regurgitated and hunkering oin your bunker because it's the end times when we told you to and you should've been sending campbell's soup to those poor dead babies.

Oh, you should see, hear and read the German news outlets. It´s so sickenly annoying to watch the way they report this. Even the outlets that usually are realatively good are just going Eb0l NewcULar!!!!1111!!!
The few real experts that are interviewed, like people responsible for reactor safety and nuclear engineers/physicist are tsunamied out by screeching politicians/greenpeace/Concerned Citizens and other hysterical laymen.

[Chris OFarrell]

Okay.

It LOOKS like they have the Aux diesel generator in reactor #6 active now. And they are using that to power the cooling systems on #6 and #5's fuel ponds, so THAT situation that was starting to build is hopefully under control now.

They have several JSDF specialized fire trucks pouring water into #3, no reports on how effective as yet.

[Broomstick]

So. Pretty consistent, which doesn't mean a whole lot with the unreliable information coming out. What I'm befuddled about is why are all the temperatures reported by the IAEA are below boiling? Where the fuck is the water going if it's not being boiled away? Unit 4's spent fuel pool temperature is listed as constant between the 14th and 15th of March, which is really odd if you're dumping huge amounts of heat into it. My guess: Their temperature sensor is fucked up and is reporting the wrong temperature when it's actually already boiling. But then we're at a loss to explain why Unit 5's SFP temperature is still rising while simultaneously losing huge amounts of water.

You do not need boiling to have significant evaporation. This is the spent fuel pool, remember, so it's not under any pressure which would prevent that. I don't have time to run the numbers/good physical intuition in that area to figure out if the water losses are plausible from evaporation alone and not actual boiling, unfortunately. Given how rapid the rate of water loss is, I'd be inclined to agree with you about the temperature sensor malfunctioning, though.

I am not familiar with the size or shape of these pools, nor where any sensors might be located, but is it possible that some parts of the pool are boiling and others are not? In a large enough body of water that might in fact be possible.

And, since this pool is elevated, I suppose it's possible the tank itself is leaking from damage

There are many possibilities here, and much confusion.

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

In relation to the media concentrating on the "OMFG NUKULAAR DISASTA!" headlines, the same can be said for a couple of widely read Finnish papers. Some of the headlines are in fact so brilliant as to proclaim that the radiation from Fukushima is now "threatening" California and glaringly implying that the accident that Tokyo is a ghost town thanks to all the RADIATION thrown up from the plant. However absolutely the most retarded commentary can be found from the message boards of aforementioned newspapers' websites. Dear god the level of stupidity thrown up in there was enough to make my fucking head hurt.

Meanwhile, the destruction and loss of life caused by the earthquake and the tsunami seem to have been placed pretty firmly in the background. No one really gives a shit about that when there is an "OMFG NUKULAAAR DISASTER" to write and rant about. Oh and indeed, nuclear engineers and physicists have been buried under the onslaught of general hysteria and stupidity. Afterall "they dont KNOW whats going to happen OMFG!".

[wautd]

PS - it's a completely valid point. It really makes me sick because it's so glaringly obvious that (at least american) news outlets are just absolutely sucking the cock of the "ZOMG NUCLEAR" headline and just gagging on it as they ram it down the throats of the uninformed uninformed trogolodyte eye holes of the average western viewer/reader, while simultaneously pre-wiriting the articles that will be published after the power plant is dealt with. I can see it now "Oh, while the world was so closely following the nuclear DISASTER/CRISIS/APOCALYPSE - 10,000 people died from a combination of disease/hunger/hypothermia" (Incinuating that you, the vewier/reader are to blame for their deaths) Shame on you for consuming every syllable of NUCLEAR that the news outlets regurgitated and hunkering oin your bunker because it's the end times when we told you to and you should've been sending campbell's soup to those poor dead babies.

The few real experts that are interviewed, like people responsible for reactor safety and nuclear engineers/physicist are tsunamied out by screeching politicians/greenpeace/Concerned Citizens and other hysterical laymen.

I can understand the general mistrust of the public though. After all, the nuclear experts are also the same ones who lobby or work for nuclear power so it's in their own intrests to defend it.

Don't get me wrong, despite its strong disadvantages (nuclear waste & safety*), I still take nuclear over coal/oil. Perhaps the main downside of nuclear power is that because we have cheap and relatively clean power available from nuclear, there is less politicial will to invest into greener power/technologies.

(*) I'm not saying nuclear power plants are unsafe, but Japan again shows that they're not immune against disaster.
Whatever the cause (natural disaster, human error, terrorist attack), if something goes wrong with a nuclear plant, the consequences may be devastating. I live in a small but densely populated country (Belgium) which lies in an area riddled with nuclear power plants. If an area of a 20 km radius was to be depopulated because of such a disaster, the socioeconomic consequences would be devastating.
So yeah, nuclear power should go away, but not to replace it with an even more poluting energy source.

[PeZook]

There are people here who are buying iodine tablets as well.

When I tried telling them that there is no danger to Poland and no, Japan won't be depopulated even if all six reactors blew up tomorow, they called me a paid shill of the nuclear lobby.

[Stravo]

What baffles me is the scant attention IMO being paid to the team of 50 people that as I understand it have now received a lethal dose of radiation trying to keep the plants under control. If this were happening here the media would be heaping praises, hero worshipping to the point of ridiculousness with round the clock coverage. Here they get a couple of mentions and they move on to the nuclear scare mongering. I want to hear and know more about those guys because just like the folks who ran into the towers on 9/11 when everyone else was running out these guys are modern heroes and I want to know about them. Maybe because they're Japanese and not Americans I'm not getting the coverage I think they deserve but it is a real shame.

[PeZook]

Oh, definitely. Radiation levels at reactor four are about 400 mSv per hour, so you get to the 50% lethal dose in 10 hours.

I'm not sure if they're rotating the work crews or not, but there's bound to be some people who's skillset/experience makes them absolutely necessary right there.

They deserve to be immortalized for future generations.

[Julhelm]

The media is only interested in scaremongering because scaremongering sells papers and boosts ratings.

[Spoonist]

When I tried telling them that there is no danger to Poland and no, Japan won't be depopulated even if all six reactors blew up tomorow, they called me a paid shill of the nuclear lobby.

Nice, where do I pick up my paycheck.


Here in sweden people are stupid as well. Had a nuclear expert doing a live chat on a newspaper site. One of the questions was:
"When will people start dying in sweden due to the fallout".
Unfortunately the expert tried to syntax the question into something sane so his answer was regarding the local plants in case of an incident.

Regarding the real disaster of the tsunami, saw a chart that charitiy money is starting to go down in the mediashadow of the nuclear stuff.

[SCRawl]

Broomstick's tasteless comment (and commentary on that comment) have been sent here. Really, Broomstick, you know better than that.

[Broomstick]

In relation to the media concentrating on the "OMFG NUKULAAR DISASTA!" headlines, the same can be said for a couple of widely read Finnish papers. Some of the headlines are in fact so brilliant as to proclaim that the radiation from Fukushima is now "threatening" California and glaringly implying that the accident that Tokyo is a ghost town thanks to all the RADIATION thrown up from the plant

There is a bogus and faked map of "radiation dispersion" making the rounds on the internet that does, indeed, show such a thing. I won't link to it because I refuse to publicize it even further, but I can't help but think it is playing into this sort of hysteria (though probably not the only cause). I don't know if someone thought it would be "funny" or if it was a deliberate attempt to scare people.

[Phantasee]

You mean the map that was posted within the last two or three pages of this very thread?