Bobby Jindal is the Republican Barack Obama (apparently)

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Duckie
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Re: Bobby Jindal is the Republican Barack Obama (apparently)

Post by Duckie »

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New York Times to the Rescue- this is how well Obama did. He appears to have overperformed on everybody, even in Kerry's home state, save in the Redneck areas wherein people report their ethnicity as "American" (538 did a study on it, showing that percentage of "American" ancestry links one to rural white social conservative voters who are pretty much the dregs in the appalachians and that's it. It's quite hard to prove these people are racists, but are they almost assuredly the highest percentage of racists per capita? You betcha.)

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- Map of people who report their ancestry as "American".

No Blacks.pdf - A map of counties in the US where there are fewer than 25 blacks reported on the census.

Percent Blacks.pdf - A map of counties showing the percentage black.

Unfortunately we haven't a spare parralel universe to run a White Obama so we can't directly compare, but generally we can say there needs to be proven one thing if Obama's race were to have negatively impacted him

1) It must be proven that his gain in Blacks provided less votes than his loss among Whites.
2) It must be proven that a white politician could have gained those white voters
3) It must be proven that a white politician would not have lost those black voters.

Now, #1: this seems relatively easy even to me- since blacks make up about 13% of the country, he must gain 8 times as many black voters as he loses whites.

The problem is with #2. Obama does better among whites than any democratic politician since the Dixiecrats save Lyndon Johnson. Obama could have lost the vote of 30%, maybe even 50% of the blacks in the country to McCain or anyone else and still won easily.

Further, looking at the map Obama doesn't appear to have gained much in those black regions of the south where they actually make up massive portions. He has gained in the midwest in counties where there are no black people just as much.

Further, it's hard to tell with #3 since every democratic presidential candidate save Obama has been white so we have little basis to compare black voters compared to the race of the president. No, Jessie Jackson or black senators don't count because they come from majority black districts and black caucuses- you can't gauge their white support easily, and they are far shorter in national appeal unlike Obama who would have won every single state save Arkansas, Tennessee, Oklahoma, and perhaps Kentucky if it were a matter of Δvote and not actual vote.

I'm not claiming his Race wasn't an issue- I believe a White Obama would have overperformed so massively that it would have made McCain look like McGovern.

But I can't think of a way to show it using what sparse data we have. Anyone have some clues on a good rule of thumb we can use?

Generally I'm somewhat skeptical of the idea that a huge amount of black support helps, because if only 1 out of 10 americans is a racist that causes him to get a net loss, even if almost every black in the country votes it would barely make it up. (And, Blacks are statistically the poorest, most urban voters in the country. Poor, Urban voters have a very high chance to not vote compared to others, in historical elections as of 2000.)

However, it's hard to prove it was a net loss simply because of the data paucity.

I think we can at minimum state that Obama's race had almost no chance of helping him inasmuch as that black people were not what carried Obama over the top- it was icing on top of his massive performance among whites, especially traditionally conservative or moderate whites. It could have helped in things such as "Message" or "Brand" that we can't measure reliably without more samplings, but that is rather meaningless for a discussion of statistics.

However, that doesn't mean race necessarily hurts him- Obama, after all, overperformed on all demographics racially compared to Kerry, and it's hard to prove he had a stunted overperformance among whites (that is, instead of +20% he would have gained, say, +40% if he were white) to the satisfaction demanded by my conscience.
Last edited by Duckie on 2008-12-03 11:06pm, edited 4 times in total.
erik_t
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Re: Bobby Jindal is the Republican Barack Obama (apparently)

Post by erik_t »

MRDOD wrote:
erik_t wrote:It might be enlightening to look at how much Obama gained on Kerry vs the racial makeup of the state, or the south-ness, or both. I think that might give us some insight as to how race affected Obama in a positive or negative way. Unfortunately we really never have statistics worth considering. It'd be better off if we had like 10,000 states so we could actually accumulate a meaningful volume of data.

God knows how those poor Canadians manage :P
It's buried in 538 somewhere- generally Obama outperformed Kerry everywhere except places both southern and relatively blackless, such as kentucky, oklahoma, et cetera.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3516 ... o07tj7.png

Now, we have to throw out former or current incumbent states- Illinois, Massachusetts, Texas and Arizona are not very indicative of the data. Generally it appears that McCain overperformed in upstate new york and rural michigan, where there was actually a good chance he might have contested the latter had this not been a landslide.

Notice, however, that Obama did marginally better everywhere except in a scant few states that are white, rural, and generally, to not tapdance around it, full of racist rednecks.

Problem- This map comes from June, before the economic collapse and while Obama was not campaigning in Michigan or Florida, thus the slight red tinge to them. I wish I could find the full map from after the campaign. They even had one that was county by county, which we could then compare to the ethnic makeups.

Further, since this map comes pre-obama's nomination, it has Hillary Clinton sabotaging the results in places like Michigan, Florida, New York, and Arkansas where she is popular since it doesn't measure on 3 axes, just "Obama (projected) vs Kerry".
I was aware of that map, but thanks for posting it. I was remiss in not doing so myself.

As I said, I don't think this can do anything more than give us an extremely loose feel for what's going on. Certainly our sample size is tiny, and it's pretty hard to quantify the percentage of racists in a state, and who they'd have voted for regardless of race, and a huge variety of other factors. That Nate can predict as well as he can is a bit of black magic as far as I'm concerned.



And now MRDOD posted... yay! I'll have to look that over.
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Re: Bobby Jindal is the Republican Barack Obama (apparently)

Post by Duckie »

My edit time ran out-


Every single black who lives in the deep south (that is, half to even two thirds of them judging by the demographics map posted) did nothing to help his win due to the electoral vote system. It seems hard to tell me that 6% or even 4% of the country that is black and not in the south is what tipped him over the edge in swing states, especially with the Δvote map wherein he has massive gains among whites who are not racists and rednecks. (and even among racist rednecks he still usually has a faint gain compared to Kerry, just a smaller one).

Fun Fact- in Indiana, the biggest surprise on election day save perhaps Omaha, Obama lost 4% of black voters compared to Kerry. He instead had a 22% gain compared to Kerry among whites and a youth surge.
Times Election Data Recap
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Re: Bobby Jindal is the Republican Barack Obama (apparently)

Post by Darth Wong »

Stormbringer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You're quite the tap dancer. But the fact remains that you made a rather bold claim: that Obama's race was "almost certainly" a net positive. And you have provided no real reason for anyone to agree with you. You cited a few mechanisms that might work in his favour and assumed that the ones which were against him must have been insignificant because he won: a particularly pathetic form of illogic.
Oh please. They weren't mechanisms that might work in his favor; they did work in his favor. You only need to look at the evidence posted to this very board in the election threads to see that. The poll data shows pretty reliably that they did indeed help him. He garnered a significant amount of minority support, which helped him in many southern and/or rural states. His youth was a big factor in both the primary and the general election; it was a huge part of why his mess of change worked. And those poll numbers from this very board attest to that.
Wrong. They show that he did particularly well among minorities; they do not show that overall, a white man given the exact same opponent, policies, economic climate, and abilities would have done worse. You are committing the exact non sequitur I accused you of: assuming that a particular factor must have been a net positive because the person in question was successful.
Darth Wong wrote:I think it would be rather naive to think that this idea represents an actual change in the collective thinking of the party, as opposed to a political strategy idea.
Mike, to have the Republicans in a position where they'll actually consider a black candidate in the first place is change. For the Republicans to distance themselves from the racists, even risking them staying home, is a significant changes from them courting those same racists.
I guess they would be "distancing themselves from the racists" if they appointed rabid race-baiting anti-immigrant psycho bitch Michelle Malkin too, right? I think racists are quite comfortable with the idea of getting a minority elected, as long as he continues to pursue the same anti-minority policies.
It doesn't have to be sincerely meant for it to matter in the long run. Sidelining the racists, whether because it's to your advantage or because of genuine principle, the fact is they'd still be sidelined.
Oh really?
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Don't worry, the racists are in no danger of being sidelined under this guy.
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Re: Bobby Jindal is the Republican Barack Obama (apparently)

Post by Duckie »

A final statistical nail in the Obama Was Helped By Race coffin. In 2004, there were 36 million blacks in the US.

56% of blacks live in the south, while 44% of blacks live in the north. Let us assume, generously that half of blacks live in northern urban cities or virginia or north carolina, while half in the Cotton Belt. Judging by the population density map of blacks, this is somewhat unlikely, but we are going to go with it anyhow.

There are 18 million northern, virginian, or north carolinan blacks.

Let us assume that every single black in America voted for Obama. Nationwide, Obama had a +14 gain among Blacks compared to Kerry. Thus, 14% of Blacks shifted vote to Obama from McCain compared to Kerry vs Bush.

14% of 18 million is a gain of 2.5 million black voters whose votes actually mattered due to the Electoral College.

The white population of America is approximately 220 million.

For Obama to have a net gain in votes from his gain in black voters, 1.14% of Whites or less must be dissuaded from voting for him by his race. Further, he must lose 0 whites due to racism- these would only be whites who would otherwise stay home.

Does anyone here seriously believe that only 1 in a hundred whites in America voted against him because of his race?

The question doesn't appear to be whether Obama lost voters because of his race, but rather just how racist America is and whether it cost him much at all. If, say, 5% of white americans are racist, then this is the math:

Let us assume that if both candidates are white, racists are equally as likely to vote Democrat as Republican despite that racists tend to be socially conservative.

Obama is black: Gains 2.5 Million, Loses 11 Million = Net loss of 9.5 million.

125,225,901 people voted. If Obama were white, he would have lost 2.5 million, gained 5.5 million, for a net gain of 3 million, or 2.5% popular vote.

Obama would have, assuming equal distribution of racists (again, naïve considering how they are distributed in real life), gained Montana and Missouri.

5% Racism Among Whites Results.
Electoral Votes: 379 White Obama, 159 McCain
Popular Vote: 57% White Obama, 46% McCain

Code: Select all

 
Percent of US White Voters who voted McCain due to racism: Amount of Votes Obama Lost Vs White Dem.(States That Flip)
0%: -2.5 million (North Carolina to McCain)*
1%: -300,000
1.14%: No Difference
3%: 4.1 million (Missouri)
5%: 8.5 million (Montana)
7%: 12.9 million (Georgia)
10%: 19.5 million (South Dakota, North Dakota)
11%: 21.7 million (Arizona, South Carolina)
14%: 28.3 million (Texas)
16%: 32.7 million (West Virginia)
18%: 37.1 million (Mississippi, Tennessee, Nebraska (4))
19%: 39.3 million (Kansas)
20%: 41.5 million (Kentucky)
24%: 50.3 million (Arkansas)
26%: 54.7 million (Alabama, Alaska)
30%: 63.5 million (Idaho)
34%: 72.3 million (Utah)
37%: 78.9 million (Oklahoma, Wyoming- the entire country)


*(that is, Obama with Kerry's Black Performance, assuming all other variables the same, would have lost North Carolina by a scant amount.)
Interesting facts:
  • Racist Vote under 3% of the white populace does not affect electoral votes.
  • We can probably guess that no more than 10% of the US population at most voted against Obama due to racism- no real reason save that I cannot imagine a democrat winning Texas.
  • Arizona and perhaps Alaska should be discarded due to incumbent effect- Arizona would have been far closer had McCain not been the nominee, perhaps even a battleground state, and thus its inflated Racism Requirement is anomalous.
  • 3% Racist Vote among whites would have achieved a Landslide Victory, by the definition on 538.
  • If any significant percentage of whites are racists, a white Obama would have won an astounding victory. However, 30% would be required to win the same margin as Nixon vs McGovern, so my earlier statement that a white Obama would have won like that was somewhat hyperbole.
  • I did not factor in turnout very well into this, assuming that 100% of Racists are motivated enough to vote against Obama nor did I consider any other turnout based concerns.
  • This analysis is very simplistic and thus only useful for illustrating a point on a national scale- the state projections are only vaguely accurate. However, if any significant (5%+) percentage of whites are racists, it can be assured Obama would have won Montana and Missouri at minimum, securing him 379 EV and a 55.5% Popular Vote.
Something to look at is that unless I'm reading my own chart wrong, the White Racist Voter percentage cannot be above 25% assuming 100% of racist voters voted for McCain, because they would have exceeded what his own vote count.

If we assume that Racists vote at the same rate as the average US Citizen, there cannot be a Racist White Percentage of more than 42.5, as otherwise McCain would have exceeded his own vote count.

Code: Select all

Racist Quotient For McCain Assuming 100% Racist Turnout, or Average Racist Turnout
1.14%: Racism Negligible, Perhaps 2.7%/1.8%.
3%: 7% Racists, 4.5% Racists
5%: 15% Racists, 9.6% Racists
7%: 22% Racists, 14.1% Racists
10%: 33% Racists, 21.2% Racists
11%: 37% Racists, 23.7% Racists
14%: 49% Racists, 31.4% Racists
16%: 56% Racists, 35.9% Racists
18%: 63% Racists, 40.3% Racists
19%: 67% Racists, 43.0% Racists
20%: 71% Racists, 45.5% Racists
24%: 86% Racists, 55.1% Racists
26%: 93% Racists, 59.6% Racists
30%: NA% Racists, 69.8% Racists
34%: NA% Racists, 79.5% Racists
37%: NA% Racists, 86.7% Racists
So, SDN? How racist is a group of 100 American Whites picked at random? What about 100 McCain supporters? How well would a White Obama have done?

I don't have any answers, just possibilities.

For myself I think 5% of the US, and thus 9.6% of McCain supporters nationally did so out of Racism, costing Obama 8.5 million votes and losing him the states of Missouri and Montana.

Note that it is impossible for Obama to win because of the black vote- an Obama who performed as well as Kerry for black votes would have had 349 or 350 Electoral Votes regardless because there just aren't enough black people compared to whites.
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Re: Bobby Jindal is the Republican Barack Obama (apparently)

Post by ray245 »

Interesting, it can shut the republicans up IRT Obama not choosing enough republican into his cabinet.
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Re: Bobby Jindal is the Republican Barack Obama (apparently)

Post by Battlehymn Republic »

I think it's very, very innovative in that they're trying to sabotage a future prospect's career by offering him a job- keep your enemies closer and all that. It's impossible for the same reason Jindal couldn't have possibly been McCain's veep candidate- he's only been in the Governor's Mansion for less than a year.
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Re: Bobby Jindal is the Republican Barack Obama (apparently)

Post by Darth Yoshi »

It'd be a plan for the next election, though, as long as Obama puts up a strong enough showing this term that realistically there's no way for him to lose.
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