CIA report - Russia intervened in the 2016 election

[Flagg]

Trump is on camera asking for Russia to hack government servers until they found Secretary Clinton's e-mails from when she was Secretary of State (since the Clinton private server that caused all the furor had long since been taken down).

As I pointed out at the time, this is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. The files Trump was asking the Russians for were never on any government server, and Trump was asking the Russians to provide the files for that precise reason.

If she was e-mailing things to people using government e-mail addresses even if she herself was not, then yes they were on government servers; just in a significantly more fragmented form. And the fact remains he was openly asking Russia to hack his opponent's campaign, even if he didn't specify government servers out loud by name.

I'm really sick of morons who flat out refuse to believe that candidates for public office will do what they say when it's horrible shit.

[Solauren]

Guys, Guys, Guys....

Calm Down.

Did Russia intervene towards helping Trump win? Probably.

HOWEVER.....

We need to remember a TWO things
#1 - Unless Russia (or someone else) managed to fuck with the vote itself (i.e 'Lost' votes for Hilary, 'added' votes for Trump), then the election ITSELF was still fair. All Federal level governments often release their own version of propaganda to try to sway the Federal elections of other nations, even if slightly.

#2 - Trump got roughly the same votes as the last Republic Nominee in 2012. Hilary got approximately HALF of what Obama did. Simply put, unless Russia somehow 'lost' half of the votes for Hilary (which seems unlikely, since turn-out was reported to be piss poor), Trump won because most people refused to vote for Hilary.

. . .

So, unless the CIA finds a massive 'smoking gun', like say, Russia hacked voting machines and caused votes for Hilary to not be counted and if not for that, she would have once both the popular and Electoral College vote, then Trump STILL wins.

And If IF they find that, unless they can prove Trump was in on it beyond more then firing his mouth off, there is nothing to go after him for.

The best that could be hoped for would be a the US Federal Government "Going, okay, we are redoing the vote. It will be entirely be hand. Paper ballets, overseen by election officials, etc.".

And that would raise the spectre of: if Hilary won, did she win as a protest vote against Trump? And if Trump were to re-win, was it a protest against the government for re-doing the vote?

[The Romulan Republic]

Source for the claim that Clinton only got half the votes Obama did? Because I'm pretty sure that's utter bullshit.

Hillary Clinton won the popular vote, by over two million votes. No one argues this outside the fever dreams of the Alt. Right. She could not have done so if she had got that many fewer votes than Obama. Obama did not beat his opponents by two to one ratios.

Perhaps you've been paying too much attention to Russian fake news yourself, Solauren?

[Crazedwraith]

BBCs Election Results page.

According to that: Clinton got approx 62.5 million votes in 2016 and Obama got 66.9 Milllion in 2012 and 69.5 million in 2008. So she definitely got less. But not way near like half as many.

On the other side Trump got 61.2 mil, Romney 60.9 mil and McCain, 59.9 Mil. So he was up from them but not nearly so much as Clinton was down from Obama.

[mr friendly guy]

This seems like a case of Russia will benefit, but we have no damn evidence. Its like a murder case where we have a whole bunch of suspects because they all hated the victim, however you have no evidence. Its irresponsible in that case to report a particular suspect did it, and its very similar here.

[Flagg]

Guys, Guys, Guys....

Calm Down.

Did Russia intervene towards helping Trump win? Probably.

HOWEVER.....

We need to remember a TWO things
#1 - Unless Russia (or someone else) managed to fuck with the vote itself (i.e 'Lost' votes for Hilary, 'added' votes for Trump), then the election ITSELF was still fair. All Federal level governments often release their own version of propaganda to try to sway the Federal elections of other nations, even if slightly.

#2 - Trump got roughly the same votes as the last Republic Nominee in 2012. Hilary got approximately HALF of what Obama did. Simply put, unless Russia somehow 'lost' half of the votes for Hilary (which seems unlikely, since turn-out was reported to be piss poor), Trump won because most people refused to vote for Hilary.

. . .

So, unless the CIA finds a massive 'smoking gun', like say, Russia hacked voting machines and caused votes for Hilary to not be counted and if not for that, she would have once both the popular and Electoral College vote, then Trump STILL wins.

And If IF they find that, unless they can prove Trump was in on it beyond more then firing his mouth off, there is nothing to go after him for.

The best that could be hoped for would be a the US Federal Government "Going, okay, we are redoing the vote. It will be entirely be hand. Paper ballets, overseen by election officials, etc.".

And that would raise the spectre of: if Hilary won, did she win as a protest vote against Trump? And if Trump were to re-win, was it a protest against the government for re-doing the vote?

There is no way in hell Hilary got half the votes Obama did, it's a ridiculous statement that destroys any credibility you may have had. Trump would have almost certainly won every single state if that had happened.

[Grumman]

In case anyone is curious about the timing of this particular accusation, both branches of Congress just passed the Countering Foreign Propaganda and Disinformation Act, as part of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2017. No prizes for guessing which whistleblowing organisation the CIA has in mind as the first targets.

[Raj Ahten]

There very well could be good evidence that Russia hacked the DNC and now even the RNC. But just leaking their conclusions to the press like the good old days and asking everyone to just trust them isn't going to work anymore. Hell that would be a tough act after Vietnam let alone Iraq. If the CIA and other Intel agencies that concluded it was Russia want to be believed they are going to have to reveal sources and methods and show off what their forensic computing can do. But then they would be worse than Snowden in their own minds so little chance of that happening with out an act of congress. In the bullshit "just trust me" zone of leaking things to the media and secret reports Trump's emotion based appeals will win every time.

[Flagg]

There very well could be good evidence that Russia hacked the DNC and now even the RNC. But just leaking their conclusions to the press like the good old days and asking everyone to just trust them isn't going to work anymore. Hell that would be a tough act after Vietnam let alone Iraq. If the CIA and other Intel agencies that concluded it was Russia want to be believed they are going to have to reveal sources and methods and show off what their forensic computing can do. But then they would be worse than Snowden in their own minds so little chance of that happening with out an act of congress. In the bullshit "just trust me" zone of leaking things to the media and secret reports Trump's emotion based appeals will win every time.

We don't even know who actually leaked it. It could be anyone with the security clearance to know this.

And the Donnie Douchebag line about WMD in Iraq is so much bullshit, too. Anyone in the intelligence agencies that actually told the obvious truth about it was ignored by the Bush Administration who had decided to go into Iraq if elected before the 2000 election even took place. Hell, Rumsfeld wanted to go into Iraq instead of Afghanistan right after 9/11 because there was more stuff to blow up.

[Raj Ahten]

There very well could be good evidence that Russia hacked the DNC and now even the RNC. But just leaking their conclusions to the press like the good old days and asking everyone to just trust them isn't going to work anymore. Hell that would be a tough act after Vietnam let alone Iraq. If the CIA and other Intel agencies that concluded it was Russia want to be believed they are going to have to reveal sources and methods and show off what their forensic computing can do. But then they would be worse than Snowden in their own minds so little chance of that happening with out an act of congress. In the bullshit "just trust me" zone of leaking things to the media and secret reports Trump's emotion based appeals will win every time.

We don't even know who actually leaked it. It could be anyone with the security clearance to know this.

And the Donnie Douchebag line about WMD in Iraq is so much bullshit, too. Anyone in the intelligence agencies that actually told the obvious truth about it was ignored by the Bush Administration who had decided to go into Iraq if elected before the 2000 election even took place. Hell, Rumsfeld wanted to go into Iraq instead of Afghanistan right after 9/11 because there was more stuff to blow up.

Yeah Trump is being especially ridiculous as his reported top pick for the #2 post at State is John fucking Bolton, who couldn't be more connected to the Iraq fiasco.

[Raj Ahten]

Sorry for doublepost

[Flagg]

There very well could be good evidence that Russia hacked the DNC and now even the RNC. But just leaking their conclusions to the press like the good old days and asking everyone to just trust them isn't going to work anymore. Hell that would be a tough act after Vietnam let alone Iraq. If the CIA and other Intel agencies that concluded it was Russia want to be believed they are going to have to reveal sources and methods and show off what their forensic computing can do. But then they would be worse than Snowden in their own minds so little chance of that happening with out an act of congress. In the bullshit "just trust me" zone of leaking things to the media and secret reports Trump's emotion based appeals will win every time.

We don't even know who actually leaked it. It could be anyone with the security clearance to know this.

And the Donnie Douchebag line about WMD in Iraq is so much bullshit, too. Anyone in the intelligence agencies that actually told the obvious truth about it was ignored by the Bush Administration who had decided to go into Iraq if elected before the 2000 election even took place. Hell, Rumsfeld wanted to go into Iraq instead of Afghanistan right after 9/11 because there was more stuff to blow up.

Yeah Trump is being especially ridiculous as his reported top pick for the #2 post at State is John fucking Bolton, who couldn't be more connected to the Iraq fiasco.

Yeah, pretty much every reasonable persons' worst nightmare about the various lunatics being put into positions of power is who Donnie Douchebag is appointing, short of professional grifter Sarah Palin. What's going to happen once he's inaugurated is payback for people like Megan Kelly, the women he sexually assaulted, and anyone who he feels animosity towards. Hitler would have fucking loved Trump.

[Solauren]

There is no way in hell Hilary got half the votes Obama did, it's a ridiculous statement that destroys any credibility you may have had. Trump would have almost certainly won every single state if that had happened.

Head full of cold and resulting piss poor reading skills.

However, the point stands about her getting Less votes then Obama

[Alyrium Denryle]

The toilet has been flushed.

[Vendetta]

There is no way in hell Hilary got half the votes Obama did, it's a ridiculous statement that destroys any credibility you may have had. Trump would have almost certainly won every single state if that had happened.

Head full of cold and resulting piss poor reading skills.

However, the point stands about her getting Less votes then Obama

Less than Obama.

More than every other US president ever.

Don't believe for one second that Hillary didn't get a lot of votes, she did. She just didn't get them in the only states that get to decide who the president is.

[Patroklos]

What a stupid metric. Normalize for population, then report.

[Gandalf]

Less than Obama.

More than every other US president ever.

Don't believe for one second that Hillary didn't get a lot of votes, she did. She just didn't get them in the only states that get to decide who the president is.

Every state gets to have a say. She just didn't think to spend time/money in a bunch of them, assuming everything was safe. On the upside, her campaign got a moral victory. On the downside, the other campaign got the actual victory.

[Flagg]

There is no way in hell Hilary got half the votes Obama did, it's a ridiculous statement that destroys any credibility you may have had. Trump would have almost certainly won every single state if that had happened.

Head full of cold and resulting piss poor reading skills.

However, the point stands about her getting Less votes then Obama

Yeah, sorry for the harsh response.

[Highlord Laan]

Guys, Guys, Guys....

Calm Down.

Did Russia intervene towards helping Trump win? Probably.

HOWEVER.....

We need to remember a TWO things
#1 - Unless Russia (or someone else) managed to fuck with the vote itself (i.e 'Lost' votes for Hilary, 'added' votes for Trump), then the election ITSELF was still fair.

Tell that to the countless people that had their registrations wiped out, polling places closed early, or flat-out shut down in the name of "DUH VOTAR FRAWD!" But the repigs did it to MAK MURRIKKKA GRAT, so it's okay.

You can go ahead and start in Ohio.

[Flagg]

Guys, Guys, Guys....

Calm Down.

Did Russia intervene towards helping Trump win? Probably.

HOWEVER.....

We need to remember a TWO things
#1 - Unless Russia (or someone else) managed to fuck with the vote itself (i.e 'Lost' votes for Hilary, 'added' votes for Trump), then the election ITSELF was still fair.

Tell that to the countless people that had their registrations wiped out, polling places closed early, or flat-out shut down in the name of "DUH VOTAR FRAWD!" But the repigs did it to MAK MURRIKKKA GRAT, so it's okay.

You can go ahead and start in Ohio.

Yeah, speaking as someone whose first ever vote was for Al Gore in FL, I have a... Unique viewpoint on that shit.

[Ziggy Stardust]

What a stupid metric. Normalize for population, then report.

I have to agree with Patroklos, here. Just saying that "Hillary got more votes than any other non-Obama president ever" is pretty meaningless. I mean, Trump ALSO received more votes than every non-Obama president ever. It's just trivia, it isn't actually meaningful.

The most recent non-Obama comparison was 12 years ago, when there were ~32 million fewer people in the United States than there are today. You REALLY need to normalize numbers for total US eligible voting population at the very LEAST if you want to make any sort of honest claim about Clinton's mandate from a historical perspective.

If you want to talk about Clinton's mandate, you have to talk about the margin of her votes relative to Trump, as a proportion of the U.S. eligible population and with respect to turnout.

[Solauren]

There is no way in hell Hilary got half the votes Obama did, it's a ridiculous statement that destroys any credibility you may have had. Trump would have almost certainly won every single state if that had happened.

Head full of cold and resulting piss poor reading skills.

However, the point stands about her getting Less votes then Obama

Yeah, sorry for the harsh response.

No problem. I'm not American, but I can understand how you guys can get emotional over elections.
Kinda like us Canadians and Hockey Games.

[Solauren]

Guys, Guys, Guys....

Calm Down.

Did Russia intervene towards helping Trump win? Probably.

HOWEVER.....

We need to remember a TWO things
#1 - Unless Russia (or someone else) managed to fuck with the vote itself (i.e 'Lost' votes for Hilary, 'added' votes for Trump), then the election ITSELF was still fair.

Tell that to the countless people that had their registrations wiped out, polling places closed early, or flat-out shut down in the name of "DUH VOTAR FRAWD!" But the repigs did it to MAK MURRIKKKA GRAT, so it's okay.

You can go ahead and start in Ohio.

True.
BUT

That's a 'Internal' issue, whereas Russian influence is 'external'.

[The Romulan Republic]

What a stupid metric. Normalize for population, then report.

I have to agree with Patroklos, here. Just saying that "Hillary got more votes than any other non-Obama president ever" is pretty meaningless. I mean, Trump ALSO received more votes than every non-Obama president ever. It's just trivia, it isn't actually meaningful.

The most recent non-Obama comparison was 12 years ago, when there were ~32 million fewer people in the United States than there are today. You REALLY need to normalize numbers for total US eligible voting population at the very LEAST if you want to make any sort of honest claim about Clinton's mandate from a historical perspective.

If you want to talk about Clinton's mandate, you have to talk about the margin of her votes relative to Trump, as a proportion of the U.S. eligible population and with respect to turnout.

Well, last I heard, she did inarguably (outside of Trumpian conspiracy theories, anyway) have 2 million-plus more votes than Trump.

Sure, you can argue Trump might have done better in the popular vote if he'd been campaigning to win the popular vote rather than the EC, and people have argued that, but the only thing we really know is that as it stands, Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by somewhere between two and three million votes.

No one got a majority of the popular vote, thanks to third party/independent/write-in votes, so you could argue no one has an unambiguous mandate from the voters, but Hillary Clinton has a better claim to a popular mandate than Putin's tool does. The most Trump can hope for is "won on an anachronistic technicality".

In a way, I'm grateful for that small silver lining, that Hillary won the popular vote- because without that, it would be much easier to frame this result as proof of the failings of democracy, and of the American people- that we cannot be trusted to govern ourselves.

As it stands, however, the popular vote is practically the only way in which our country didn't completely embarrass itself this November.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Well, last I heard, she did inarguably (outside of Trumpian conspiracy theories, anyway) have 2 million-plus more votes than Trump.

Yes, I know, I wasn't arguing that. Which is why the last part of my post was saying that you have to look at that voter margin if you want to talk about Hillary's mandate, instead of just saying, as Vendetta said, "More than every other US president ever." The latter is the only argument I have a problem with, I agree with everything else about Hillary's loss being nigh-unprecedented with respect to the margin of the popular vote.