Uprising in Libya

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Darth Tanner
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Darth Tanner »

Do they have anything that can reach Libya from Gibraltar?
A Euro fighter has just enough range to get there on its own without refuelling but couldn’t get back. I'm not certain of the UKs aerial refuelling capability at the moment, our new tankers are only just being delivered so I'm not sure if the old ones have already been sold off or the new ones are in service yet.

We could always just ask Italy to let us use their airfields or we could just bomb them from the sea after all. Or maybe those enthusiasts who restored a Vulcan bomber could lease it out.

I'm still hopeful that Gadaffis regime will simply collapse when he runs out of money to pay for mercenaries/bribe for people not to riot.

EDIT: Spelling
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Thanas »

The EU is apparently meeting to discuss measures to stop Libya, including even armed intervention. While I am not too confident the EU has the capability, the creation of a no-fly zone would be a pretty good start.

The Problem is that one apparently needs 60-70 planes in the air each day to enforce such a zone, with at least significant special forces to extradite any crew that gets shot down. And of course any intervention would give a propaganda boost to Gaddafi, which is why people are a bit wary.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Sarevok »

The UK no longer has any fixed wing aircraft operating from carriers (until the new QE class is ready) so that option is out.

As for the Vulcan the only way it can enforce a no-fly zone is by bombing the airfields Libyan airforce uses.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Lonestar »

Sarevok wrote:The UK no longer has any fixed wing aircraft operating from carriers (until the new QE class is ready) so that option is out.

Gee fucker, you think? It's a good thing that hasn't been beaten to death in this thread.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by HMS Sophia »

Sarevok wrote: As for the Vulcan the only way it can enforce a no-fly zone is by bombing the airfields Libyan airforce uses.
The vulcan? You mean the 60's strategic bomber? Or am I being an idiot...
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Darth Tanner wrote:I'm still hopeful that Gadaffis regime will simply collapse when he runs out of money to pay for mercenaries/bribe for people not to riot.

EDIT: Spelling
Not likely. Gaddafi is used to being an international pariah. He'd be happy to build The Great Bloody Wall (of corpses) to wall off the rebel east, and then outlast the Western governments currently making unhappy noises about how he's cementing his hold on power with the blood of rebel traitors. It'll be just like Iraq, after the international community let Saddam Hussein ruthlessly suppress his own internal rebellion and wall off the troublesome Kurdish north with corpses after the first Gulf War.

On that note:

Gaddafi pushes eastward.
Auntie Beeb wrote:Rebels forced from Libyan oil port
Rebel near Sidra and Ras Lanuf, 10 March 2011 Rebels have been struggling to hold their ground amid fierce artillery attacks

Libyan rebels are fleeing the oil port of Ras Lanuf after sustained attacks by forces loyal to Col Muammar Gaddafi.

Rebels were travelling eastwards in vehicles after coming under fire from rockets and shells, reports said.

Libyan state TV said pro-Gaddafi troops had also cleared rebels from the oil port of Sidra, west of Ras Lanuf.

In recent days, Col Gaddafi's forces have been trying to regain ground in the rebel-held east, as well as the town of Zawiya, west of Tripoli.

'Running away'

Meanwhile, France has become the first country to recognise the Libyan rebel leadership, the National Libyan Council (NLC), as the country's legitimate government.

It came as Nato met to discuss international military options in the Libyan conflict, including the possibility of imposing a no-fly zone.

There has been fierce fighting in Libya since mid-February, when opponents to Col Gaddafi's 41-year rule took many towns and cities in eastern Libya, in the wake of successful popular uprisings in neighbouring Tunisia and Egypt.

One report on Thursday said that as they advanced on Ras Lanuf, tanks driven by pro-Gaddafi forces had moved to their easternmost position since the conflict began.

One rebel fighter told AFP news agency: "We've been defeated. They are shelling and we are running away. That means that they're taking Ras Lanuf."

Among those fleeing were staff at the town's central hospital, who had to hurriedly evacuate patients, AFP reported. Just one doctor remained, along with the body of a man killed in the fighting and pools of blood on the floor.

Zawiya is now reported to be either largely or wholly under the control of government forces, though journalists have been prevented from travelling to the town and it is hard to get an accurate picture of the result of several days of intense fighting there.

BBC diplomatic correspondent Jonathan Marcus says fears that the military balance may be shifting in Col Gaddafi's favour have prompted calls for urgent international action.
Losing those oil facilities is a big blow to the rebel forces. If Gaddafi can consolidate his hold on those oil production facilities in the near-east, he can cut off the flow of oil to power plants in the far east. Also, Gaddafi's hold on the Libyan west is very strong, and is backed by deep tribal ties.

Gaddafi's military muscle concentrated in elite units.
NPR wrote:Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi has deliberately kept his army weak in recent years, but he has bolstered elite forces that are personally loyal to him, Italian analysts say.

As the former colonial power in Libya, Italy has maintained a close interest in the country. The Italian intelligence services are relatively well informed about what's happening there; an Italian intelligence report on Gadhafi's military strength was recently presented to Parliament.

"We know very little, but we know one thing: His military machinery is not so big," says analyst Alessandro Politi.

After international sanctions on Libya were lifted in 2004, Gadhafi was able to refurbish his country's weapons systems, Politi says. But fearing a coup, Gadhafi kept the regular army relatively weak.

"The real nucleus of his security is around the presidential guards, mercenaries and a few other elite units who were directly controlled by his family and his tribe or his money," Politi says.

Tribal Loyalty

Along with an unknown number of foreign mercenaries, there are said to be four elite brigades with a total of some 10,000 men. One stands out: the 32nd Armored Brigade under the command of Gadhafi's son, Khamis. It's estimated to have 4,000 to 5,000 highly trained and very loyal fighters, armed with Russian-made tanks and rocket launchers.

Military analyst Carlo Jean says the other elite brigades are composed of members of the Libyan leader's tribe and another tribe loyal to him.

"Keep in mind that Gadhafi's tribe, the Gadhafa, is made up of a million people, as is that of the other tribe loyal to him, the Warfala," Jean says.

After seizing power in 1969, Gadhafi went on a spending spree — buying thousands of tanks, armored vehicles and cannons; hundreds of aircraft; and four submarines. In 1979, the mainly desert country with a population at the time of 2.5 million owned more fighter planes than Great Britain.

Libya had also stored 1,000 metric tons of Semtex, a key element of terrorist bombs in the 1980s.

With an army of some 50,000 men and highly sophisticated weapons — and with the dream of forging pan-Arab unity — Gadhafi launched three wars over two decades and lost them all.

Another Spending Spree

The Libyan army was demoralized, as was Gadhafi himself. His biographer, Angelo Del Boca, says the Libyan leader felt his people had not understood the utopian project he had laid out in his Green Book.

"When I last saw Gadhafi, I asked him how successful his Green Book had been in Libya. He said, sadly, 'It was a total failure. Libya is still dark, not green as I had hoped,' " Del Boca says.

For Gadhafi, Del Boca says, "dark" meant a country still riven by tribal loyalties. But with the army no longer trustworthy, tribal loyalties became key to Gadhafi's own political survival.

And with Libya's return to the international stage seven years ago, Gadhafi again went on a spending spree for his elite brigades.

"Libya is chock full of weapons, but we don't know how well they're maintained," says Jean, the military analyst. "Today, Ukrainians do the maintenance, but they're not as skilled as the East Germans were during the Cold War."

Italian analysts believe Gadhafi is still in control of his military machine and has reserves of tanks and artillery. He can continue to order airstrikes on rebel positions, but analysts say Gadhafi does not seem to have the logistical support to push eastward, into rebel-held territory.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Sarevok »

Lonestar wrote:
Sarevok wrote:The UK no longer has any fixed wing aircraft operating from carriers (until the new QE class is ready) so that option is out.

Gee fucker, you think? It's a good thing that hasn't been beaten to death in this thread.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Sarevok »

barnest2 wrote:
Sarevok wrote: As for the Vulcan the only way it can enforce a no-fly zone is by bombing the airfields Libyan airforce uses.
The vulcan? You mean the 60's strategic bomber? Or am I being an idiot...
Yeah that one. It was pulled out off retirement once before during the Falklands war. Although the chances of a repeat happening is rather close to zero...
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Simon_Jester »

Excuse me, I am not familiar with the state of air basing in the Mediterranean, or of exactly what the EU has access to for purposes of enforcing a no-fly zone over Libya.

How much, if any, of the burden of a no-fly zone could be taken up by land-based aircraft operating out of Malta or Sicily? The area immediately around Tripoli, at least, should be comfortably within range of Malta. The eastern part of the country less so, but Cyrenaica is where the rebels are strongest anyway, and the need to enforce an air blockade is less important there.

EDIT: I ask because the "nobody has carriers capable of taking care of this" question keeps coming up, and is obviously a major problem. To what extent are carriers actually *needed* to do this job?
Last edited by Simon_Jester on 2011-03-10 11:25am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Thanas »

Sarevok wrote:
Lonestar wrote:
Sarevok wrote:The UK no longer has any fixed wing aircraft operating from carriers (until the new QE class is ready) so that option is out.

Gee fucker, you think? It's a good thing that hasn't been beaten to death in this thread.
What exactly is your problem ?
Could it be you restating things as if they were news when they have been said by three different people already?
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by HMS Sophia »

Sarevok wrote:
barnest2 wrote:
Sarevok wrote: As for the Vulcan the only way it can enforce a no-fly zone is by bombing the airfields Libyan airforce uses.
The vulcan? You mean the 60's strategic bomber? Or am I being an idiot...
Yeah that one. It was pulled out off retirement once before during the Falklands war. Although the chances of a repeat happening is rather close to zero...
Yeah, chances are zero. Only one is still flying, and that's a museum piece that can barely achieve lift.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Lonestar »

Sarevok wrote:

What exactly is your problem ?

"The UK has no carrier" has been stated and restated by at least 3 people(myself, Thanas, and Skimmer) in this thread, either as a reaction to the UK's PM statement about needing a no-fly zone, a no-fly zone in the generic sense, or to a random Britisher "rhetorically" asking if Wacky-Gaddafi is "trying to make them bomb the shit out of them". While perhaps it bears repeatinging when someone brings up a new variation of those three(and repeating in the context of "were any of you fuckers paying attention?") you are flat out repeating it within 3 posts of others saying so, and you are typing your post in a manner that indicates you think you are imparting new information.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Thanas »

Merkel has now officially called for Gaddafi to resign.

The problem is that I cannot see the EU enforce this, and I doubt it really wants to get bogged down in yet another conflict.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by atg »

Sarevok wrote:
barnest2 wrote:
Sarevok wrote: As for the Vulcan the only way it can enforce a no-fly zone is by bombing the airfields Libyan airforce uses.
The vulcan? You mean the 60's strategic bomber? Or am I being an idiot...
Yeah that one. It was pulled out off retirement once before during the Falklands war. Although the chances of a repeat happening is rather close to zero...
The Vulcans used during the Falkland War hadn't actually been retired yet. IIRC the last squadron(s) were originaly due to be disbanded in month after the invasion. The invasion of course changed that schedule and the Vulcans ended up being kept in active service for a year or two more after the invasion (apparently partly as a deterrent against Argentina attempting a quick round 2).

But yeah the chances of Vulcans entering conflict these days in completely non-existant.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by LaCroix »

How long will Ghaddafi be able to continue the airstrikes/artillery bombardment? How big is his stockpile? I know they have lot's of raw explosives, but that isn't easily convertible into shells and dropable bombs. Is anybody supplying him? I doubt so, as he doesn't have a lot of friends.

I think he tries to crush them with overwhelming force to make them capitulate quickly. As soon as he runs out of heavy ammo, the rebels are on equal footing again.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

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He has colossal stocks of ammo and heavy weapons, Libya will be flattened and everyone murdered long before he ever runs out of ammo. Libya had far more tanks, planes and weapons in the cold war then Britain did with a small fraction of the population, and has gotten rid of nothing. Lack of weapons will never stop him unless the west starts at the very least shutting down his ability to use transport planes to take stuff from the desert depots to the cities.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by FaxModem1 »

I heard on NPR that Gaddafi's stockpiles of weapons, tanks and airplanes were considered stored, and not battle ready. Some of them even have plants growing out of them. Anyone heard anything about this?
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Gaddafi has never been able to man more then a small fraction of the equipment he imported, so it’s mostly just sat out in depots around Sabha, which is still loyal enough not to have protests on the streets. Ammo is fine like that a long time in the desert, and he doesn't fucking need more then a tiny fraction of his T-72 tanks, BM-21 rocket launchers, and heavy mortars, Hinds and Su-22s to work murder everyone in the country if he needs too. 5,000 tons of artillery ammunition goes a long way against people with rifles and machine guns.

Gaddafi let reporters into Zawiya today, and the whole place was taken to pieces by fucking tank fire, they were draping green streamers on apartment blocks to hide how much of the shell had been blasted out. Thank you international world legalism UN approved bullshit for protecting all those people from having a fucking chance.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Edward Yee »

Apparently Gaddafi-aligned troops took Brega when the rebels pulled out, only for the rebels to basically turn around and counterattack, and apparently the rebels are besieging Zawiya too.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by wautd »

Thanas wrote: the creation of a no-fly zone would be a pretty good start.
It'll be a start but if the Balkan wars are of any measure, it won't be enough. I'm afraid it'll turn into another genocide once Gaddafi's conquer the rebel strongholds, with the rest of the world again sitting with their head up in their asses saying 'oops, didn't saw that one coming'.

Shit, you'd think the rebels would have dig trenches right now but their still standing in the open, sitting ducks against bombs and artillery.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

I think honestly, with all the economic issues here and there, no one really wants to go on any kind of military intervention, i.e. no government really gives a damn.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I think honestly, with all the economic issues here and there, no one really wants to go on any kind of military intervention, i.e. no government really gives a damn.
The West is waiting for circumstances to be "right" for intervention. If it comes to light that he's taking huge numbers of civilians out to the desert and shooting them, or that he's dropping what chemical weapons Libya has left on them; that will convince the West of the necessity of a no-fly-zone. As it is, as long as the majority of people he kills were killed in fighting; the West will make unhappy noises, but will sit by the sidelines. If the rebels convincingly demonstrate that they can win under a no-fly-zone, the West would be more willing to put one up. As it is, the rebels are armed with surplus AK-47s and Toyota pickups with machine guns welded to the beds. Gaddafi's forces have tanks, artillery, and are trained in combined-arms tactics. Even if the West shot down everything with wings on it, and bombed the shit out of every straight piece of pavement in the country tomorrow; Gaddafi can still paste the rebels until his forces reach the limits of their logistical support.

So as long as Gaddafi doesn't go completely MDK on his people, and doesn't end up catching a case of being dead in the next few months, there's a strong possibility that the West will grudgingly make its peace with him for that sweet Libyan crude.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Lonestar »

Well, looks like the Libyan Rebels somehow have an airforce:
The Libyan opposition website Libya al-Youm is reporting fighter jets from what is being called the "Free Libyan Air Force" (never heard of it before today) has attacked the Libyan Navy off Ajdabiya, and 2 Libyan warships are on fire - sinking, while a third warship is said to have been damaged.

If this report by the rebel opposition turns out to be true, this is a very interesting development in the Libyan civil war. I think I speak for many of us when saying I am very curious who this "Free Libyan Air Force" is.

I would not be surprised to learn it is not Libyan at all, or not only Libyan.

UPDATE:

Reuters and Al Jazeera Arabic TV are reporting that MiG-23s and helicopters have sunk two Libyan warships.

The same sources being cited by both news agencies are saying tanks were also bombed near near Brega and Ajdabiya, the two towns reported to have fallen to pro-government forces today.

There are also new reports from the opposition website Libya al-Youm that the Gardabya Air Base airport runways have been bombed, which somewhat matches what some of the Libyan rebel Twitter sources are saying by describing smoke coming from an Air Force base outside the city of Sitre.

According to Reuters, "The Brnieq online newspaper quoted an unnamed airforce officer at the Benina airbase in Benghazi."

This is a very interesting development. It also makes the no-fly zone discussions a lot more difficult when both sides are flying aircraft in combat.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by weemadando »

UN just passed a resolution calling for enforcement of a no fly zone.

Let's see what the security council does.

*edit* Correction, it is apparently a UNSC draft res. Damn news snippets.
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Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Pelranius »

I wonder what exactly the Egyptians are doing in all of this?

Apparently Unit 777 is inside Libya (hopefully they're not as bad as they were in the 70s and 80s) and the timing of the rebel's air strikes (if true) is very curious.
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