Frat boy Navy captain gets relieved

[AMT]

In theory you are right. In practice under dont ask dont tell it risks calling unnecessary attention to gay soldiers. What happens if they go to trial and are asked point blank by a lawer if they're homosexual? If they tell the truth it ends their career, if they lie and it can be proved that it's a lie it's perjury, and if they decline to answer they're assumed to be gay and quietly sidelined.

5th amendment protections could easily be used to not answer. Since that's a constitutional right I don't think it'd be infringed upon.

[Todeswind]

In theory you are right. In practice under dont ask dont tell it risks calling unnecessary attention to gay soldiers. What happens if they go to trial and are asked point blank by a lawer if they're homosexual? If they tell the truth it ends their career, if they lie and it can be proved that it's a lie it's perjury, and if they decline to answer they're assumed to be gay and quietly sidelined.

5th amendment protections could easily be used to not answer. Since that's a constitutional right I don't think it'd be infringed upon.

The fifth amendment isn't a magic spell to protect you from saying anything in court. You can only make use of the 5th amendment to protect yourself from self incrimination. It's up to you to determine what is or is not self incriminating but the only possibly self incriminating answer to the question "are you now or have you ever been a homosexual" in this particular situation is "yes." Your right to silence is unquestionable but in this case doesn't help you much because silence is potential career suicide.

Which brings us back to quiet reassignment and limited chance of promotions which, while not being fired, is less than ideal. It's a no win situation which is probably why its taken as long for him to be reported for this as it has.

When it comes down to it with a framework like "don't ask, don't tell," is in place there's an astounding ability for technically legal bigotry.

EDIT: Spelling errors.

[Metahive]

I'm glad you recognize that you know nothing about leadership, especially since you completely missed the point that an effective leader gets results. You're defining an effective leader as someone who offends no one, which is a very strange definition of leader.

I define an effective leader as someone who doesn't gratuitously throw parts of his own crew under the bus just to generate some cheap laughs. Maybe that sort of thing marks "effective" leaders in Whalerworld, but for sure not in reality. My definition of leader is the one not adhered to by bigots and their apologists, thank you.

Also, do you have the combat record of that guy? Otherwise I can't see how you can title him an "effective" leader who "gets results" and even compare him to Patton.

[Metahive]

Let's clarify our positions. I don't think he should be let off with a smack of the wrist. I just haven't seen justification to removing him from command and basically turning on the training, money, and sacrifice into waste. He should face punishment. If I were his commanding officer I would take two months pay.

As I explained in the thread about transsexuality, it is my opinion that bigots who dare to proudly flaunt their bigotry outside their own four walls need to be met with firm rejection, pour encourager les autres. Two months pay off would be a mere slap on the wrist, depriving him of a very prestigious position however I consider acceptable. Consider, it's mainly his social reputation that's hurt with that punishment, not his livelihood, and as punishment for demeaning, anti-social behaviour that's about right.

[Lonestar]

Also, do you have the combat record of that guy? Otherwise I can't see how you can title him an "effective" leader who "gets results" and even compare him to Patton.

You don't end up being XO of a CVN by being an incompetent jerkoff.

[Metahive]

You don't prove to be a military or teamleading prodigy by becoming one either, yet the name Patton was thrown around here already to defend Honors' bullfuckery. Patton managed to outweigh his anti-social attitude by being an extremely capable commander in wartine. I ask again, has anyone delved into Honors' combat record and found some evidence for him being such? Otherwise that's just another Red Herring.

[Todeswind]

He's got an impressive career, at least what of it hasn't been redacted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Honors

[Lonestar]

You don't prove to be a military or teamleading prodigy by becoming one either, yet the name Patton was thrown around here already to defend Honors' bullfuckery. Patton managed to outweigh his anti-social attitude by being an extremely capable commander in wartine. I ask again, has anyone delved into Honors' combat record and found some evidence for him being such? Otherwise that's just another Red Herring.

Strangely enough, I personally am NOT comparing him to Patton. You made a glib comment about no evidence him being an effective leader, I made a similarly glib foment that one does not get to be XO of a CVN by being a incompetent jerkofff.

All stop. In the USN there are certain indicators about the qualifications of the personnel based solely on the billet being filled. XO of a CVN is one of them.

Mind you, there are negative indicators as well. Basically all I needed to know about PFC Manning was that he was still an E3 4 years into the army. Just with knowledge I already knew that Manning was a fuckup.

My internets are only phone deep at the moment, but I believe USNI's blog covers some of his(captain Honors) record.

[Bluewolf]

Why is this worthless thread still continuing?

Because maybe, just maybe people aren't collectively bleeting me too like usual? I mean how dare other viewpoints exist/

[AMT]

In theory you are right. In practice under dont ask dont tell it risks calling unnecessary attention to gay soldiers. What happens if they go to trial and are asked point blank by a lawer if they're homosexual? If they tell the truth it ends their career, if they lie and it can be proved that it's a lie it's perjury, and if they decline to answer they're assumed to be gay and quietly sidelined.

5th amendment protections could easily be used to not answer. Since that's a constitutional right I don't think it'd be infringed upon.

The fifth amendment isn't a magic spell to protect you from saying anything in court. You can only make use of the 5th amendment to protect yourself from self incrimination. It's up to you to determine what is or is not self incriminating but the only possibly self incriminating answer to the question "are you now or have you ever been a homosexual" in this particular situation is "yes." Your right to silence is unquestionable but in this case doesn't help you much because silence is potential career suicide.

To which I disagree, especially as DADT is on its way out. Either way, this doesn't change the original fact, i.e. sexual harassament in the form of being called a f*g is still sexual harassament whether you actually are gay or not, and that discrimination against a person for their sexual orientation (beyond DADT's employment clause which has been repealed) is not allowed.

[Cecelia5578]

You don't prove to be a military or teamleading prodigy by becoming one either, yet the name Patton was thrown around here already to defend Honors' bullfuckery. Patton managed to outweigh his anti-social attitude by being an extremely capable commander in wartine. I ask again, has anyone delved into Honors' combat record and found some evidence for him being such? Otherwise that's just another Red Herring.

Strangely enough, I personally am NOT comparing him to Patton. You made a glib comment about no evidence him being an effective leader, I made a similarly glib foment that one does not get to be XO of a CVN by being a incompetent jerkofff.

All stop. In the USN there are certain indicators about the qualifications of the personnel based solely on the billet being filled. XO of a CVN is one of them.

Mind you, there are negative indicators as well. Basically all I needed to know about PFC Manning was that he was still an E3 4 years into the army. Just with knowledge I already knew that Manning was a fuckup.

My internets are only phone deep at the moment, but I believe USNI's blog covers some of his(captain Honors) record.

Slightly OT, but since it was mentioned, I'm pretty sure I've also seen references to Manning as an E-4; I'm pretty sure somewhere along the line he got busted down, so being an E-4 after 3 years or whatever in the Army isnt a big deal, especially in some MOSs where its harder than others to get promoted in.

[Big Phil]

I'm glad you recognize that you know nothing about leadership, especially since you completely missed the point that an effective leader gets results. You're defining an effective leader as someone who offends no one, which is a very strange definition of leader.

I define an effective leader as someone who doesn't gratuitously throw parts of his own crew under the bus just to generate some cheap laughs. Maybe that sort of thing marks "effective" leaders in Whalerworld, but for sure not in reality. My definition of leader is the one not adhered to by bigots and their apologists, thank you.

Also, do you have the combat record of that guy? Otherwise I can't see how you can title him an "effective" leader who "gets results" and even compare him to Patton.

You're making up your own definition of a leader, huh? Okay...

I can do that too, you know. I THINK A LEADER IS SOMEONE WHO EATS TACOS ON TUESDAY AND MACARONI SALAD ON SATURDAY AND LIKES TO GO FOR WALKS IN THE PARK!!! YAY!

[SCRawl]

Are we seriously getting bogged down about what makes a good leader? I recall from my (brief) military experience that among other things, a leader must inspire those who work under him (using the single gender pronoun here, not to imply that women can't be good leaders). A good leader makes you want to work for him; if your leader doesn't do that, then he'd better make you afraid of him, because that's all he's got left. Discussing "results" is another thing again; an inspiring leader who can't organize a good shag at a cathouse isn't worth much either.

Looking over his qualifications, my (admittedly non-expert) eye tells me that he's going to be a good administrator at the very least; he was XO of a fucking aircraft carrier, who in his spare time was able to put together videos to try to boost the morale of (most of) the crew. Was he a good leader? Obviously his superiors (and probably a large number of his subordinates) must have thought so, because he was promoted to the rank of captain and given command of two ships. His general competence seems, to me at least, a non-issue: he's very, very competent.

The question seems mostly to be about his judgement. From the man himself:

While Captain Honors’ performance as commanding officer of U.S.S. Enterprise has been without incident, his profound lack of good judgment and professionalism while previously serving as executive officer on Enterprise calls into question his character and completely undermines his credibility to continue to serve effectively in command.

Putting out off-colour humour videos, while potentially effective in boosting overall morale, seems like a pretty poor decision. I've never commanded or served on a military vessel, though -- my military career began and ended in 1989, as an officer cadet -- so I know next to nothing about the culture that exists there. Capt. Honor's bosses are in a much better position to know about it than I am, and they felt that his filmmaking efforts were the sort of thing that taints one's opinion of such a senior officer, and seriously calls into question his judgement.

[HMS Sophia]

Slightly Ot, but I was jsut flicking through the guys record online, and this line came up

He has 3,400 flight hours in 31 types of aircraft with more than 700 landings on 15 carriers. He has flown 85 combat missions in three different theaters.

To me, that sounds like a fuck ton, and a well experienced man.
Now, I'm a military historian, not a military man, is that actually as much as it seems? Specifically the 85 combat missions indicate too me that he is at least a competent soldier and well deserving of his position?

[Max]

Also, do you have the combat record of that guy? Otherwise I can't see how you can title him an "effective" leader who "gets results" and even compare him to Patton.

You don't end up being XO of a CVN by being an incompetent jerkoff.

Worked for Bush Jr. Maybe not an XO, but he did get the presidency...

[Mr Bean]

Competent sailor, he's a competent sailor, he's Navy and we are all sailors even if someone of us only sail planes and desks. And yes he deserved his job, he put together some off color videos and is being made scape goat because they leaked to the public. If this had never hit the Public then his record would make him a shoe in for an Admiralty position. After he got there only politics could have stopped a further rise to even greater heights.

Let me tell you, as a Navy man that having excellent efficiency reports and reports and being loved by your crew is fucking rare. In order to get excellent and not simply good you have to be a prick. Or rather the general rule of thumb is anyone who does have "excellent" gets that only because they are a slave-driving assholes who wanted to be Admirals when they grew up rather than officers. Officers who run safety drills nine times a day and give you two hours of sleep because you getting into and out of uniform six times during your ten hours off are the people who want to be Admirals not great officers. To make Admiral you need to build a gold record and easiest way of doing that is doing shit over and over again until it's second nature.

Worked for Bush Jr. Maybe not an XO, but he did get the presidency...

Sorry to tell you this but it's harder to become XO of a ship than it is to become President. To become XO you have to convince five men who know you very well that you have your shit together and have a solid record for eight years with not a single major screw-up and you can become XO. To become President one only need convince 50.0001% of people who have never met you and know only what you tell them that you'd make a great President.

And further if those five people pick you and you fuck up then questions will be asked on why they picked you, unlike again becoming President.

[Mr. Coffee]

I ask again, has anyone delved into Honors' combat record and found some evidence for him being such? Otherwise that's just another Red Herring.

Military career

Designated a Naval Aviator in September 1985,[3] Honors completed initial F-14 training with the “Grim Reapers” of VF-101. Honors was then assigned to the “Be-Devilers” of VF-74, and deployed aboard USS Saratoga (CV 60) to the Mediterranean Sea. During this tour, he attended U.S. Naval Fighter Weapons School (Top Gun) and was selected to attend U.S. Naval Test Pilot School, graduating in 1990. His tour was completed at the Strike Aircraft Test Directorate in Patuxent River, Md., in the carrier suitability department.

On June 4, 1992 Owens suffered minor injuries when his T-45A Goshawk training jet skidded off the runway.[4] He delayed ejecting until he could prevent a collision with a nearby occupied van.[5]

In April 1993, Honors joined the “Black Aces” of VF-41 for his department head tour deploying on board USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71). While attached to VF-41, he served as both Operations and Maintenance Officer conducting combat operations in the former Republic of Yugoslavia and Iraq.

Following his Master's degree from Naval War College in September 1996, he reported to U.S. Atlantic Command for joint duty as the Joint Reconnaissance Center Branch Head. During this tour, Honors was selected for aviation command.

In October 1999, Honors reported to the “Fighting Checkmates” of VF-211, deploying on board USS John C. Stennis (CVN 74). Honors assumed command of the “Checkmates” in February 2001. While attached to the “Checkmates,” he deployed twice to the Western Pacific/Persian Gulf. His second deployment was on short notice in support of Operation Enduring Freedom soon after the events of 9/11.

Honors reported to the Bureau of Personnel (BUPERS) as the head junior officer detailer in May 2002. He was selected for carrier executive officer in October 2002 and departed BUPERS in October 2003 to begin Aviation Nuclear Officer training. He reported as Executive Officer of USS Enterprise (CVN-65) in July 2005, deploying twice prior to departing in September 2007.

In January 2008, Honors assumed command of the U.S. Sixth Fleet Command Ship, USS Mount Whitney (LCC-20) homeported in Gaeta, Italy. In September 2008 Honors commanded USS Mount Whitney during Operation Assured Delivery as the ship supported humanitarian assistance missions in the Republic of Georgia during its armed conflict with Russia. Honors was quoted as saying that the mission was, "...not a show of force—it's a show of solidarity."[6]

He has 3,400 flight hours in 31 types of aircraft with more than 700 landings on 15 carriers. He has flown 85 combat missions in three different theaters.

On 6 May 2010, Honors was appointed the 21st commander of the USS Enterprise. Replacing Capt. Ron Horton, he was scheduled to be the last commanding officer of the ship before it is decommissioned.[1] On 4 January 2011, he was relieved of this command.

[edit] Awards and honors

Honors is the recipient of the Legion of Merit, Bronze Star, Defense Meritorious Service Medal, multiple Air Medals, Meritorious Service Medal, and various campaign/unit awards.

Last time I checked they don't hand out shit like the Legion of Merit and Bronze Stars to just any old asshole off the street. He's also an Annapolis graduate, attended the US Naval Fighter Weapons School (That Top Gun school they made a movie about), US Naval Test Pilot School, and gradated from the Naval War College. With the exception of the video incident I'm not seeing anything in this guy's career that would indicate that he's anything other than an effective officer with one hell of a career up till this current incident. So again, dip your red herring BS in salsa and shove it up your ass.

[AMT]

Slightly Ot, but I was jsut flicking through the guys record online, and this line came up

He has 3,400 flight hours in 31 types of aircraft with more than 700 landings on 15 carriers. He has flown 85 combat missions in three different theaters.

To me, that sounds like a fuck ton, and a well experienced man.
Now, I'm a military historian, not a military man, is that actually as much as it seems? Specifically the 85 combat missions indicate too me that he is at least a competent soldier and well deserving of his position?

Being a leader is not just about experience, though. He exercised poor judgement, and in any position (generally speaking) the higher up the chain you go, the more that will come to bite you on the ass.

[Mr. Coffee]

Being a leader is not just about experience, though. He exercised poor judgement, and in any position (generally speaking) the higher up the chain you go, the more that will come to bite you on the ass.

One "Oh shit..." will undo 20 years worth of "Attaboy's", dude.

[Big Phil]

AMT/Metahive/et al, are you seriously arguing that leaders cannot ever make mistakes or do something stupid?

[AMT]

AMT/Metahive/et al, are you seriously arguing that leaders cannot ever make mistakes or do something stupid?

Obviously not, as I never said such a thing. But actions have consequences. And someone who has the ability to decimate cities and kill hundreds or thousands of people should hopefully show better judgment then that shown by this officer.

Plus his punishment is shunting to a deskjob and an inevitable 8,000 dollars a month pension. Cry me a fucking river at how the poor naval captain is being so screwed.

Being a leader is not just about experience, though. He exercised poor judgement, and in any position (generally speaking) the higher up the chain you go, the more that will come to bite you on the ass.

One "Oh shit..." will undo 20 years worth of "Attaboy's", dude.

Yup.

[Metahive]

You're making up your own definition of a leader, huh? Okay...

I can do that too, you know. I THINK A LEADER IS SOMEONE WHO EATS TACOS ON TUESDAY AND MACARONI SALAD ON SATURDAY AND LIKES TO GO FOR WALKS IN THE PARK!!! YAY!

I don't even need to comment on that nonsense, it speaks for itself.

AMT/Metahive/et al, are you seriously arguing that leaders cannot ever make mistakes or do something stupid?

Yes, they can do mistakes. Then they get knocked down a peg. Misbehaviour -> correction. What's your problem?
Of course, what you meant, don't they deserve some leniency and their misbehaviour to swept under the rug? Well, no. Leaders are supposed to behave examplatory in front of their men, and being a bigot makes for a crap example, no matter how much the straight, WASPy majority of his underlings loves him.

Last time I checked they don't hand out shit like the Legion of Merit and Bronze Stars to just any old asshole off the street. He's also an Annapolis graduate, attended the US Naval Fighter Weapons School (That Top Gun school they made a movie about), US Naval Test Pilot School, and gradated from the Naval War College. With the exception of the video incident I'm not seeing anything in this guy's career that would indicate that he's anything other than an effective officer with one hell of a career up till this current incident. So again, dip your red herring BS in salsa and shove it up your ass.

I wasn't the one who brought up Patton to defend that guy, so my ass is not that Red Herring's destination. Keep your piscine manure to yourself.

All in all, no, I see no evidence that the guy was a military prodigy essential for any future american war effort which was the point of the people comparing that guy to Patton in the first place, don't forget that, so putting him behind a desk is no crippling loss to the USN. I also think it's a good thing showing that even decorated personnel don't have a bigotry privilege. As I already said, bigotry won't go away if its proponents and enablers are not met with firm rejection.

Also, before any apologist replies to me, I ask again as I did several pages ago, if Honors had instead called out the "niggers" and showed a few black crewmen chomping down on water melons and KFC buckets, would you still be so hellbent on defending him? Homophobia is nowhere less bigoted than that in my opinion.

[Mr. Coffee]

Also, before any apologist replies to me, I ask again as I did several pages ago, if Honors had instead called out the "niggers" and showed a few black crewmen chomping down on water melons and KFC buckets, would you still be so hellbent on defending him? Homophobia is nowhere less bigoted than that in my opinion.

Well, again, I'd have to ask you to show that the man has a history of prejudice against gays in order to back of this "he's a homosphobe" shit. Saying a word doesn't mean anything, but a history of saying "fag" along with harassing or malicious treatment towards gays does.

[AMT]

Also, before any apologist replies to me, I ask again as I did several pages ago, if Honors had instead called out the "niggers" and showed a few black crewmen chomping down on water melons and KFC buckets, would you still be so hellbent on defending him? Homophobia is nowhere less bigoted than that in my opinion.

Well, again, I'd have to ask you to show that the man has a history of prejudice against gays in order to back of this "he's a homosphobe" shit. Saying a word doesn't mean anything, but a history of saying "fag" along with harassing or malicious treatment towards gays does.

So you're saying that a person who makes a video described by Metahive, even though they do not have a history of prejudice against blacks, can't be considered a bigot?

[Lonestar]

Worked for Bush Jr. Maybe not an XO, but he did get the presidency...

Bean nailed it. In order to be president all you have to do is appeal to the lowest common denominator(which in this country is easier done than said), whereas filling a billet of which there are only 11 of in the US military is an incredible feat as you need to impress a group of people who are slightly more squared away than Taxpayer Q. Bumblefuck.

@Cecelia.
Yeah he got busted in rank for getting into fights with his coworkers. I stand by my assessment that if you're in the US military for 4 years and you're a E3, then you're a fuckup that makes ME look like a highspeed 4-oh sailor.


I will concede that in rare instances that isn't true,but in those instances the individual doesn't have the brains the universe gave a doornail and can't pass an advancement exam to save his life.