Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

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Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by KraytKing »

A chimpanzee threw a paper airplane and the DIA grabbed it.

No, for real. This is interesting. TL;DR at the bottom.
Intelligence Officials Say U.S. Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin
LESLIE KEAN and RALPH BLUMENTHAL·June 5, 2023

A former intelligence official turned whistleblower has given Congress and the Intelligence Community Inspector General extensive classified information about deeply covert programs that he says possess retrieved intact and partially intact craft of non-human origin.

The information, he says, has been illegally withheld from Congress, and he filed a complaint alleging that he suffered illegal retaliation for his confidential disclosures, reported here for the first time.

Other intelligence officials, both active and retired, with knowledge of these programs through their work in various agencies, have independently provided similar, corroborating information, both on and off the record.

The whistleblower, David Charles Grusch, 36, a decorated former combat officer in Afghanistan, is a veteran of the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) and the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO). He served as the reconnaissance office’s representative to the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force from 2019-2021. From late 2021 to July 2022, he was the NGA’s co-lead for UAP analysis and its representative to the task force.

The task force was established to investigate what were once called “unidentified flying objects,” or UFOs, and are now officially called “unidentified anomalous phenomena,” or UAP. The task force was led by the Department of the Navy under the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence and Security. It has since been reorganized and expanded into the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office to include investigations of objects operating underwater.

Grusch said the recoveries of partial fragments through and up to intact vehicles have been made for decades through the present day by the government, its allies, and defense contractors. Analysis has determined that the objects retrieved are “of exotic origin (non-human intelligence, whether extraterrestrial or unknown origin) based on the vehicle morphologies and material science testing and the possession of unique atomic arrangements and radiological signatures,” he said.

In filing his complaint, Grusch is represented by a lawyer who served as the original Intelligence Community Inspector General (ICIG).

“We are not talking about prosaic origins or identities,” Grusch said, referencing information he provided Congress and the current ICIG. “The material includes intact and partially intact vehicles.”

In accordance with protocols, Grusch provided the Defense Office of Prepublication and Security Review at the Department of Defense with the information he intended to disclose to us. His on-the-record statements were all “cleared for open publication” on April 4 and 6, 2023, in documents provided to us.

Grusch’s disclosures, and those of non-public witnesses, under new protective provisions of the latest defense appropriations bill, signal a growing determination by some in the government to unravel a colossal enigma with national security implications that has bedeviled the military and tantalized the public going back to World War II and beyond. For many decades, the Air Force carried out a disinformation campaign to discredit reported sightings of unexplained objects. Now, with two public hearings and many classified briefings under its belt, Congress is pressing for answers.

Karl E. Nell, a recently retired Army Colonel and current aerospace executive who was the Army’s liaison for the UAP Task Force from 2021 to 2022 and worked with Grusch there, characterizes Grusch as “beyond reproach.”

Christopher Mellon, who spent nearly twenty years in the U.S. Intelligence Community and served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, has worked with Congress for years on unidentified aerial phenomena.

“A number of well-placed current and former officials have shared detailed information with me regarding this alleged program, including insights into the history, governing documents and the location where a craft was allegedly abandoned and recovered,” Mellon said. “However, it is a delicate matter getting this potentially explosive information into the right hands for validation. This is made harder by the fact that, rightly or wrongly, a number of potential sources do not trust the leadership of the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office established by Congress.”

But some insiders are now willing to take the risk of coming forward for the first time with knowledge of these recovery programs.

Jonathan Grey is a generational officer of the United States Intelligence Community with a Top-Secret Clearance who currently works for the National Air and Space Intelligence Center (NASIC), where the analysis of UAP has been his focus. Previously he had experience serving Private Aerospace and Department of Defense Special Directive Task Forces.

“The non-human intelligence phenomenon is real. We are not alone,” Grey said. “Retrievals of this kind are not limited to the United States. This is a global phenomenon, and yet a global solution continues to elude us.”

At the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, Grusch served as a Senior Intelligence Capabilities Integration Officer, cleared at the Top Secret/Secret Compartmented Information level, and was the agency’s Senior Technical Advisor for Unidentified Aerial Phenomena analysis/Trans-Medium Issues. From 2016 to 2021, he served with the National Reconnaissance Office as Senior Intelligence Officer and led the production of the NRO director’s daily briefing. Grusch was a GS-15 civilian, the military equivalent of a Colonel.

Grusch has served as an Intelligence Officer for over fourteen years. A veteran of the Air Force, he has numerous awards and decorations for his participation in covert and clandestine operations to advance American security.

According to a 2021 NRO Performance Report, Grusch was an intelligence strategist with multiple responsibilities who “analyzed unidentified aerial phenomena reports” and “boosted congressional leadership Intel gaps [in] understanding.” He was assessed by the reconnaissance office’s Operations Center Deputy Director as an “adept staff officer and strategist” and “total force integrator with innovative solutions and actionable results.”

Grusch prepared many briefs on unidentified aerial phenomena for Congress while in government and helped draft the language on UAP for the FY2023 National Defense Authorization Act, spearheaded by Senators Kirsten Gillibrand and Marco Rubio and signed into law by President Biden in December 2022. The provision states that any person with relevant UAP information can inform Congress without retaliation, regardless of any previous non-disclosure agreements.

In his statements cleared for publication by the Pentagon in April, Grusch asserted that UFO “legacy programs” have long been concealed within “multiple agencies nesting UAP activities in conventional secret access programs without appropriate reporting to various oversight authorities.”

He said he reported to Congress on the existence of a decades-long “publicly unknown Cold War for recovered and exploited physical material – a competition with near-peer adversaries over the years to identify UAP crashes/landings and retrieve the material for exploitation/reverse engineering to garner asymmetric national defense advantages.”

Beginning in 2022, Grusch provided Congress with hours of recorded classified information transcribed into hundreds of pages which included specific data about the materials recovery program. Congress has not been provided with any physical materials related to wreckage or other non-human objects.

Grusch’s investigation was centered on extensive interviews with high-level intelligence officials, some of whom are directly involved with the program. He says the operation was illegally shielded from proper Congressional oversight and that he was targeted and harassed because of his investigation.

Grusch said that the craft recovery operations are ongoing at various levels of activity and that he knows the specific individuals, current and former, who are involved.

“Individuals on these UAP programs approached me in my official capacity and disclosed their concerns regarding a multitude of wrongdoings, such as illegal contracting against the Federal Acquisition Regulations and other criminality and the suppression of information across a qualified industrial base and academia,” he stated.

Associates who vouched for Grusch said his information was highly sensitive, providing evidence that materials from objects of non-human origin are in the possession of highly secret black programs. Although locations, program names, and other specific data remain classified, the Inspector General and intelligence committee staff were provided with these details. Several current members of the recovery program spoke to the Inspector General’s office and corroborated the information Grusch had provided for the classified complaint.

Grusch left the government on April 7, 2023, in order, he said, to advance government accountability through public awareness. He remains well-supported within intelligence circles, and numerous sources have vouched for his credibility.

“His assertion concerning the existence of a terrestrial arms race occurring sub-rosa over the past eighty years focused on reverse engineering technologies of unknown origin is fundamentally correct, as is the indisputable realization that at least some of these technologies of unknown origin derive from non-human intelligence,” said Karl Nell, the retired Army Colonel who worked with Grusch on the UAP Task Force.

In a 2022 performance evaluation, Laura A. Potter, Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence, Headquarters, Department of the Army, described Nell as “an officer with the strongest possible moral compass.”

Grusch is represented by Charles McCullough III, senior partner of the Compass Rose Legal Group in Washington and the original Inspector General of the Intelligence Community, confirmed by the U.S. Senate in 2011. At that time, McCullough reported directly to the then-Director of National Intelligence, James R. Clapper, and oversaw intelligence officers responsible for audits, inspections, and investigations.

In May 2022, McCullough filed a Disclosure of Urgent Concern(s); Complaint of Reprisal on behalf of Grusch with the ICIG about detailed information that Grusch had gathered beginning in 2019 while working for the UAP Task Force.

An unclassified version of the complaint provided to us states that Grusch has direct knowledge that UAP-related classified information has been withheld and/or concealed from Congress by “elements” of the intelligence community “to purposely and intentionally thwart legitimate Congressional oversight of the UAP Program.” All testimony Grusch provided for the classified complaint was provided under oath.

According to the unclassified complaint, in July 2021, Grusch had confidentially provided classified information to the Department of Defense Inspector General concerning the withholding of UAP-related information from Congress. He believed that his identity, and the fact that he had provided testimony, were disclosed “to individuals and/or entities” within the Department of Defense and the Intelligence Community outside the IG’s office. He did not allege that this information was improperly disclosed by any member of that office.

As a result, Grusch suffered months of retaliation and reprisals related to these disclosures beginning in 2021. He asked that details of these reprisals be withheld to protect the integrity of the ongoing investigation.

The Intelligence Community Inspector General found his complaint “credible and urgent” in July 2022. According to Grusch, a summary was immediately submitted to the Director of National Intelligence, Avril Haines; the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence; and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.

The complaint was drafted and signed by McCullough and his managing partner. It ended with Grusch’s signature attached to his statement that “I do solemnly affirm under the penalties of perjury that the contents of the foregoing paper are true and correct to the best of my knowledge.”

A whistleblower reprisal investigation was launched, and Grusch began his communication with the staff of the Congressional intelligence committees in private closed-door sessions. According to Grusch, certain information which he obtained in his investigation could not be put before Congressional staffers because they did not have the necessary clearances or the appropriate investigative authority.

A representative of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence told us in March that the committee members are not able to comment on the content of a complaint or confirm the identity of a complainant.

“When you have multiple agencies nesting UAP activities in conventional SAP/CAP programs, both as recipients of exploitation-related insights and for operational reasons, without appropriate reporting to various oversight authorities, you have a problem,” Grusch said, referencing the highly secret Special Access Programs and Controlled Access Programs.

Grusch’s willingness to take risks and speak out appears to be emboldening others with similar knowledge who believe in greater transparency.

Jonathan Grey, the intelligence officer specializing in UAP analysis at the National Air and Space Intelligence Center, is speaking publicly for the first time, identified here under the identity he uses inside the agency.

NASIC, headquartered at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, is the Department of Defense’s primary Air Force source for foreign air and space threat analysis. Its mission is to “discover and characterize air, space, missile, and cyber threats,” according to the agency’s website. “The center’s team of trusted subject matter experts deliver unique collection, exploitation, and analytic capabilities not found elsewhere,” the website states.

Grey said that such immense capabilities are not merely relegated to the study of the prosaic. “The existence of complex historical programs involving the coordinated retrieval and study of exotic materials, dating back to the early 20th century, should no longer remain a secret,” he said. “The majority of retrieved, foreign exotic materials have a prosaic terrestrial explanation and origin – but not all, and any number higher than zero in this category represents an undeniably significant statistical percentage.”

It is unusual for an Air Force insider to come forward, as the Air Force has been less forthcoming than other agencies with regard to UAP.

“A vast array of our most sophisticated sensors, including space-based platforms, have been utilized by different agencies, typically in triplicate, to observe and accurately identify the out-of-this-world nature, performance, and design of these anomalous machines, which are then determined not to be of earthly origin,” Grey said.

Mellon, the former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, has been instrumental in arranging classified briefings for members of Congress and other officials about UAP, which include references to exotic retrieved materials. The first briefing he facilitated on retrievals of unexplained objects was provided to staff members of the Senate Armed Services Committee on Oct. 21, 2019, and to staff members of the Senate Intelligence Committee two days later, as reported by The New York Times.

Mellon says that once the members of Congress gain greater awareness of the information provided to their staff and the Inspector General, they will be in a position to quickly determine the truth if they have the will to do so.

“This is an unprecedented oversight challenge for the committees, but I believe we have leaders in Congress who are up to the task,” Mellon said.

Classified briefings are often presented for Jonathan Grey and his team at NASIC. “High-level, classified briefing materials exist in which real-world scenarios involving UAP, as evidenced by historical examples, are made available to Intelligence Personnel on a need-to-know basis,” he told us. “I have been the recipient of such briefings for almost a decade.”

The National Defense Authorization Act for FY2023 tasked the Secretary of Defense, in consultation with the Director of National Intelligence, with establishing for the first time a secure mechanism for the authorized reporting of sensitive information to defense channels.

In addition, the legislation asks for reporting on “material retrieval, material analysis, reverse engineering, research and development” involving unidentified anomalous phenomena currently and going back decades.

Dr. Garry Nolan, a Professor in the Department of Pathology at Stanford University and a renowned inventor and entrepreneur with more three hundred published papers, has started over half a dozen companies based on technologies out of his laboratory. Nolan has previously applied some of those technologies to the analysis of exotic materials, publishing the first peer-reviewed paper examining such materials.

“Human civilization was utterly transformed by something as small as a grain of silicon or germanium—creating the underpinning of the integrated circuits that underly computation and now even artificial intelligence,” Nolan said.

Studying even small samples of purported anomalous material could lead to currently inconceivable benefits for humanity, he said. “What might be represented here could be hundreds of technology revolutions ahead of us. It could be more transformative for humanity than what the microprocessor accomplished. Imagine what we could do with even a grain of knowledge about how they operate.”

To encourage potential witnesses to come forward, the whistleblower legislation forbids any federal employee from retaliating against anyone providing authorized disclosure.

“Whistleblowing is essential to the checks and balances of our government – and no federal employee should feel discouraged from stepping forward due to fear of retaliation,” Rep. Andre Carson told us. In May 2022, Carson presided over the first open Congressional hearing on UAP since 1968.

The case of David Grusch marks a crucial test of these new whistleblower protections and their ability to protect future whistleblowers who decide to come forward.

Jonathan Grey says secrets have been necessary. “Though a tough nut to crack, potential technological advancements may be gleaned from non-human intelligence/UAP retrievals by any sufficiently advanced nation and then used to wage asymmetrical warfare, so, therefore, some secrecy must remain,” he says. “However, it is no longer necessary to continue to deny that these advanced technologies derived from non-human intelligence exist at all or to deny that these technologies have landed, crashed, or fallen into the hands of human beings.”

Grey noted that the hypothesis that the United States alone has bullied the other nations into maintaining this secrecy for nearly a century continues to prevail as the primary consensus amongst the public at large. “My hope is to dissuade the global populace from this archaic and preposterous notion, and to potentially pave the way for a much broader discussion,” he said.

Grusch said it was dangerous for this “eighty-year arms race” to continue in secrecy because it “further inhibits the world populace to be prepared for an unexpected, non-human intelligence contact scenario.”

“I hope this revelation serves as an ontological shock sociologically and provides a generally uniting issue for nations of the world to re-assess their priorities,” Grusch said.

Leslie Kean and Ralph Blumenthal, with Helene Cooper, co-authored the Dec. 17, 2017, front-page article in The New York Times that disclosed the existence of a secret Pentagon program investigating UAP.

Tim McMillan, Micah Hanks, Craig Labadie ,and Sean Munger contributed to this article.
Link to the article:
https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-off ... man-craft/

Link to a second article from the same source, detailing their fact checking process:
https://thedebrief.org/fact-check-q-a-w ... an-part-1/

Bottom line: a reputable individual with an appropriate background of work came forward and testified to Congress that they were being lied to by portions of the military and the intelligence community. He claims that intact and partially intact technology of non-human origin has been recovered and kept secret, and that this is not unique to the United States. He is vouched for by respectable individuals in multiple US intelligence agencies, not just his own.

The usual hallmarks of an easily debunked alien story are lacking here. He testified to Congress first, under oath, and hasn't been disavowed by everyone of repute. This...could be interesting. Watching this for developments, to be sure.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by bilateralrope »

So you have a lot of people talking about how they have seen evidence of craft of non-human origin. We have heard that before, many time. Every time so far, when the evidence got into the hands of people who knew what they were talking about, it was easily identified as something not alien.

Why do you think that this time will be any different ?
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

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bilateralrope wrote: 2023-06-06 04:44am So you have a lot of people talking about how they have seen evidence of craft of non-human origin. We have heard that before, many time. Every time so far, when the evidence got into the hands of people who knew what they were talking about, it was easily identified as something not alien.

Why do you think that this time will be any different ?
This is one of the first time's it's been the people that would be debunking such claims. That in itself makes it interesting.

Quite frankly, IF it's true, beyond the obvious 'OMG Aliens', etc, it makes for an interesting consideration.

If non-human technology is crashing onto this planet all the time, it means that modern low-tech air travel is safer then interstellar travel developed by more advanced technological bases. Apparently, the concept of occupational health and safety, and safety testing is uniquely human.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by KraytKing »

bilateralrope wrote: 2023-06-06 04:44am So you have a lot of people talking about how they have seen evidence of craft of non-human origin. We have heard that before, many time. Every time so far, when the evidence got into the hands of people who knew what they were talking about, it was easily identified as something not alien.

Why do you think that this time will be any different ?
As Solauren pointed out, these are the people who know what they're talking about. Ranking officials in intelligence agencies devoted to studying air and space craft say that these aren't human air and space craft. I'm not sure who else it could get to that would provide a more reliable study.
Solauren wrote: 2023-06-06 07:16am
Quite frankly, IF it's true, beyond the obvious 'OMG Aliens', etc, it makes for an interesting consideration.

If non-human technology is crashing onto this planet all the time, it means that modern low-tech air travel is safer then interstellar travel developed by more advanced technological bases. Apparently, the concept of occupational health and safety, and safety testing is uniquely human.
Not necessarily. There could be a fucking shitload of interstellar travel going on near us, and even an incidence of one crash per million flights is enough for us to get peppered every once in a while. Or a million other explanations. Pacific islanders wouldn't have been wrong to wonder why shipwrecked sailors and downed pilots kept showing up so often for a supposedly advanced technological society, but it makes perfect sense in the context of WWII. Or, it's deliberate, and we THINK we're recovering wrecks when it's actually a breadcrumb trail.

Still not certain that it really is alien, that's a lot to swallow. But if it is, all bets are off, and there is no guessing why. Could be for reasons as incomprehensible to us as our obsession with hydrocarbons is to amoebas.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by Zaune »

KraytKing wrote: 2023-06-06 01:44pmNot necessarily. There could be a fucking shitload of interstellar travel going on near us, and even an incidence of one crash per million flights is enough for us to get peppered every once in a while.
If so, it would have to use a method that leaves no other evidence that we know how to detect. If there were hundreds of spaceships a year passing along the FTL express route that Earth was going to be demolished to make way for until the mice hired a really good lawyer then you'd think it'd leave some indications somewhere on the EM spectrum, and at a time and place when a suitable telescope was pointed the right way.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by Solauren »

The possible reasons I can think of for semi-frequent crashes are -

#1 - Interstellar war in the neighbourhood

#2 - Some sort of navigational anomoly in the area that interstellar civilization hasn't charted.
(Nature of which could be anything)

#3 - Earth is 'offlimits' due to our current tech level, and Alien 'Red necks' are getting shot down by automated defense systems
(it would actually be rather easy to conceal that). This could also tie with #1. 'Klingons' are trying to invade this area and want Earth as a staging base, while 'Vulcan's are protecting us. Vulcan law prohibts contact.

#4 - We've been detected thanks to radio signals, nuclear explosions, etc, and our planet having life at our gravity level is throwing off alien systems - 1G is actually considerably higher then other species evolved at!

Getting close to our planet stresses out their propulsion systems, so they either pull away, leaving some debris that may or may not survive entry int our atmosphere, or they crash.

(I stole that basic idea from a online web novel I saw something about once... I think it was Death World?)

#5 - 'Breadcrumb' They're being crashed on Earth deliberately. Either to help our tech advancement, to let us known we are not alone, or because aliens are doing crash testing and simply don't care if we find the wreckage.

#6 - It's not aliens, it's time travelling humans, and the reason we haven't had time travel contact yet is the future is still getting the hang of it.

====

Now, that being said, do I think alien tech is crashing onto the Earth?

Possibly. The odds of us being alone in the universe are almost nil.

However, if it's them, it begs the question, why no crashes in a populate area? Something that couldn't be covered up?
i.e Why no crashes into say, Central Park at Noon on a Wednesday?
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by Solauren »

Zaune wrote: 2023-06-06 04:33pm
KraytKing wrote: 2023-06-06 01:44pmNot necessarily. There could be a fucking shitload of interstellar travel going on near us, and even an incidence of one crash per million flights is enough for us to get peppered every once in a while.
If so, it would have to use a method that leaves no other evidence that we know how to detect. If there were hundreds of spaceships a year passing along the FTL express route that Earth was going to be demolished to make way for until the mice hired a really good lawyer then you'd think it'd leave some indications somewhere on the EM spectrum, and at a time and place when a suitable telescope was pointed the right way.
We don't know anything about how FTL travel would actually work to know what to look for.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by madd0c0t0r2 »

Solauren wrote: 2023-06-06 04:45pm
However, if it's them, it begs the question, why no crashes in a populate area? Something that couldn't be covered up?
i.e Why no crashes into say, Central Park at Noon on a Wednesday?
populated areas are relatively tiny proportions of the earth surface. although I note that options #3 to #6 would have the aliens trying to avoid crashing into cities, much like a failing plane would try and aim for the water.

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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by bilateralrope »

KraytKing wrote: 2023-06-06 01:44pm
As Solauren pointed out, these are the people who know what they're talking about. Ranking officials in intelligence agencies devoted to studying air and space craft say that these aren't human air and space craft. I'm not sure who else it could get to that would provide a more reliable study.
The Chilean Navy UFO was also investigated by an official government organization tasked with studying UAPs. 2 years of studying footage and they completely failed to identify what ametures figured out in 5 days after it went public. Because the government group was staffed with believers instead of competent people.

What makes you think that this group was any better in selecting its people ?

What are the relevant qualifications of the people involved in this disclosure ?
They talk about exotic materials. So I'm looking for something to do with analysing material.

They talk about recovered vehicles, without saying if they are land, air or space vehicles. So I'm looking for something to do with analysing vehicles.

Oh and the guardian has an interesting detail:
In the Debrief article, Grusch does not say he has personally seen alien vehicles, nor does he say where they may be being stored.
What do we have to exclude the possibility of Grusch misinterpreting whatever reports he's seen ?
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by Solauren »

We don't have to exclude it that possibility.

Really, despite our immediate jump into 'what could be causing crashes', the fact it's a government official that should be qualified to debunk, going 'guess what'.. that is interesting from a real life perspective.

Until proven otherwise, alien existence is still a intellectual fantasy exercise
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by Formless »

You are all forgetting the most obvious possibilities: the rate of mental illness is no lower among intelligence analysts than the general public and this man has mistaken Men in Black for a documentary after stopping his medication. Alternatively, other members of the community want him fired and thought he was just gullible enough to believe this bullshit and act accordingly.

If UFOs were real and spacecraft were in our solar system right now, there is an entire community of actual astronomers they would have to silence first. And I refuse to believe that the US and the Russians etc are so monumentally powerful that they can get every country onboard with silencing a global scientific community. Anyone can do astronomy. You can't take the sky away from me, especially if the sky is supposedly literally falling to Earth. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof, not an appeal to authority to be taken seriously.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by KraytKing »

I'm not making any argument regarding the veracity of any claims here, but I think it's pretty arrogant to think astronomers, and particularly hobbyists, could spot foreign objects in space that were trying to hide. Telescopes are, by and large, designed to look at really fucking big things that move predictably and are EM reflective. S-300 can't spot an F-22 at sixty miles, could a radio astronomy lab spot one at 250,000? Probably not. Hobbyist? Hell no.

Silencing the global community might be pretty simple if you only have to suppress the most top-notch missile defense systems, if that. Or maybe just the handful of pilots that get lucky and see something super weird on FLIR.

The fact that we're getting corroboration from multiple separate agencies is what makes me hesitate. This isn't just one agency that might be polluted with UFO believers. Furthermore, reporting thus far claims that none of the whistleblowers are UFO enthusiasts, nor are the agencies they work for aimed entirely at studying UFOs. No real evidence has yet been provided, true, but this should be treated more like "let's see what happens" than "conspiracy theorists at it again," given the credentials involved.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by Formless »

Tell me you've never read Atomic Rockets without telling me you've never read Atomic Rockets.

Look, you can't compare stealth in atmosphere to stealth in space because in space there are no atmospheric phenomenon to interfere with the sensors. The F-22 can hide in an atmosphere because it can get rid of its heat through convection, but in space it must radiate to cool down. We can see that radiation. Infrared cameras and telescopes are well understood technology. Now there are arguments for how a dedicated stealth vehicle could be made by taking advantage of the limitations on telescopes, but now you have to convince me the aliens care about hiding from us. We're technologically beneath them, we can't reliably predict their behavior based on our own psychology or values (which sabotages arguments about aliens obeying the Prime Directive from Star Trek), and in any case, why are they bothering to come to our solar system in the first place? What is so interesting about the Solar System? Us? What were you saying about arrogance, again? :wanker:

Alien aircraft can't get here except by traveling through the interstellar void first. Simple as. If they are doing it regularly, we have to answer the question of how regular scientists, with far more sophisticated telescopes than the average person could ever hope to afford, haven't spotted anything remotely anomalous by now. Likewise, if they are not only in our solar system but in our atmosphere, crashing their aircraft like there is no alien equivalent to the NTSB and FAA, we must ask how they are evading the sheer number of civilian cameras and detection systems meant to keep the skies safe. Or why we aren't constantly seeing the military sending unexplained interception flights that create sonic booms because the aliens have crossed into forbidden airspace because they can't see our political boundaries from space.

You can't wave your hands and appeal to the credentials of people who aren't scientists and don't know anything about the astronomical facts and relevant technologies. It doesn't matter whether he is validated by other members of the intelligence community because they aren't valid experts either. The first detection of a UFO won't be in our skies; without assuming technologies that may not be possible, the first sign we are about to be visited by aliens will be the very bright drive signature approaching our planet from outside the solar system. And if we are generous and assume warp drive is possible, then it will be the burst of radiation that happens when real (hypothetical) warp drives drop out of warp because particles from the interstellar medium build up on the front of the warp bubble. Did you know physicists actually take warp drive seriously now? Seriously enough to predict these things? That's why I listen to the real experts, and not random idiots from the Department of Defense, who frequently don't know how their own technology works. Like the time the Navy's pilots kept seeing UAP's until the had the update to their guncam hardware explained to them. :banghead:
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by Formless »

So here's the real story here. Video is by the New York Post, and for those who don't want to watch youtube, its conveniently laid out as five Red Flags with David Grusch's story that you need to know before taking him seriously.

1. He presents no evidence. As the video points out, that should be the beginning and end of the discussion, but since Grusch is a real retired defense analyst, that's literally the only reason he has traction and the only reason they bothered reporting on this. So the video presenter goes the extra distance by pointing out that the lack of evidence is by Grusch's own admission. He said he never actually saw anything, he merely heard about the crashed spaceships and dead aliens. He's impeached himself.

2. It is reported that Grusch went through the DoD itself to confirm he wouldn't be revealing any secrets or classified material. Which means that anyone reporting him as a whistleblower is blowing smoke. Nothing he is saying is considered secret because the Department of Defense could have shut him up the instant he went through the process. Its one way in which his credentials actually sabotage his claims. Anyone can make shit up and the DoD won't shut them up. They will act to shut someone up if they actually say something secret, and the very logic of the conspiracy requires that they do so.

3. Grusch refused to talk to the New York Post over the phone. He refused to respond to their texts. He did not want to answer any of their questions. This is notable because of the next fact.

4. Grusch may be a former defense analyst, but the people he went to are well known among UFO believers and skeptics alike. Leslie Kean and Ralph Blumenthal are cranks who have been reporting this shit for years, and in the case of Leslie Kean, decades. The video includes a clip of Kean admitting on camera that her reporting was deliberately biased to try and get people to believe as she does, and admitting that it was the wrong way to go because it backfired. People could tell that she was lying to them, other outlets like the New York Post called out her article in 2017 for being factually inaccurate, basically nothing she writes can be trusted and anyone who goes to her on purpose and refuses to talk to skeptics can be assumed to be a True Believer as well. It doesn't matter if Grusch is legit; he went to a pair of known liars to get the word out. That says everything you need to know about him.

5. The New York Post discovered that the New York Times had been sitting on the story and hadn't actually published it until the authors decided to dump it inThe Debrief, a crank outlet that will publish anything UFO related. Seriously. Their website has an entire section devoted to this crap, and its apparently how they got started.

Meanwhile, the Times likely sat on the news because they wanted to do their own fact checking and vetting of Grusch before allowing Leslie Kean to burn them again like she did in 2017.

Edit: The first version of this post accused the OP of not linking to the article. Upon rereading I can see that was not true, but the reason I made that mistake is that you linked to The Debrief underneath the article rather than at the top like most people do so they can know before reading where the news is coming from.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by Solauren »

Ouch, talk about blowing holes in credibility.....

Also, former DOD. Why is he former? Retired? Voluntarily or by force?

Cause now I'm wondering 'this guy trying to get back at the people that fired him?'
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

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For transparency, I should note a mistake I made. For some reason, even though I knew he said it was the Washington Post that was sitting on the story, I said it was the New York Times. Oops. I think its because Leslie Kean's notorious article about the Pentagon's UAP program was indeed published in the Times, not WaPo. Of course, that still makes her a crank and explains why WaPo sat on it.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by KraytKing »

I'll accept your points regarding article credibility, that's illuminating. I'm still curious what he testified to Congress about, of course. But just to play devil's advocate:
Formless wrote: 2023-06-07 09:42pm 4. Grusch may be a former defense analyst, but the people he went to are well known among UFO believers and skeptics alike. Leslie Kean and Ralph Blumenthal are cranks who have been reporting this shit for years, and in the case of Leslie Kean, decades. The video includes a clip of Kean admitting on camera that her reporting was deliberately biased to try and get people to believe as she does, and admitting that it was the wrong way to go because it backfired. People could tell that she was lying to them, other outlets like the New York Post called out her article in 2017 for being factually inaccurate, basically nothing she writes can be trusted and anyone who goes to her on purpose and refuses to talk to skeptics can be assumed to be a True Believer as well. It doesn't matter if Grusch is legit; he went to a pair of known liars to get the word out. That says everything you need to know about him.
Well, yeah. Who else are you gonna go to about UFO news? If you have a story on election fraud, you call Fox News because you know they'll cover it. If you have Russian war crimes on video, you don't call the Duran or TASS. I agree that this is a blow to his credibility, don't get me wrong. But not that severe. News agencies will cover what they cover, people with stories have to work with that.


I won't debate the factual accuracy of your points regarding stealth in space, but I will stand by the view that I initially expressed and then deviated from. If there is any alien intelligence capable of interstellar travel, all bets are off. It is incredibly unlikely that it is within a million or a billion years of our level of consciousness and technology. A slime mold might perform an EXHAUSTIVE search of the petri dish it inhabits and find not even the slightest hint of foreign intelligence, because it is a slime mold. Yeah, sure, we could spot an F-22 anywhere in the solar system. But I do not believe that we could spot an alien version of an F-22, the same as I would not trust an ant to monitor the correct radio frequencies to overhear telecommunications between my PC and yours. If credible evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence dropping by and periodically crashing is produced, and I fully accept how monstrously big of an if that really is, I do not think we can disprove it by saying "well why did they do that" or "how come radio astronomy didn't see it." It's so far outside our understanding, inevitably, that no amount of human logic or reasoning should be applied.
Edit: The first version of this post accused the OP of not linking to the article. Upon rereading I can see that was not true, but the reason I made that mistake is that you linked to The Debrief underneath the article rather than at the top like most people do so they can know before reading where the news is coming from.
Shit, sorry. First thread on NAP, I'll keep that in mind next time.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by Formless »

KraytKing wrote: 2023-06-08 12:28amWell, yeah. Who else are you gonna go to about UFO news?
The writers of the article themselves went to the Washington Post, then got impatient and went to their favorite alternative news rag instead because they aren't fans of fact checking. That they aren't fans of fact checking is something that can be discovered by researching these two. I don't know who you are supposed to go to, but you don't go to known bullshitters if you want anyone to take you seriously.

The irony is that at the end of May, Nasa themselves were having a press conference about all the data they have and are trying to gather about UAPs. While they say most of the objects and phenomenon they are aware of are totally identifiable, they run into a roadblock researching this because people (like pilots for instance) face a stigma reporting what they have witnessed. Partly NASA blames themselves for how they have done debunking in the past with a tone that might have been too forceful, hence the need for greater transparency; similar to the DoD replacing the term "UFO" with "UAP" because the former is too polluted with Science Fiction baggage to describe what its actually intended to describe-- an object or phenomenon which is indeed real, but unidentified or unidentifiable. The problem with UAP, of course, is that everyone knows its a synonym for UFOs, so they misunderstand the DoD as believing in aliens when that's not the public message they want to send. But at least NASA recognizes that getting people to understand that UAP does NOT mean alien spacecraft first means legitimizing people's actual experiences seeing things they don't immediately recognize due to a lack of expertise or other inadequacy.

The True Believers do not help reduce this stigma. It makes non-believers rightfully suspicious of people who say they have seen a UFO-- at bare minimum, we have to ask for clarification of exactly what they saw and filter out the ones who immediately say it was an alien spacecraft.
News agencies will cover what they cover, people with stories have to work with that.
Its true, but the argument is more about him seeking out true believers and refusing to answer questions from people he knows will be asking hard questions; thus implying his story is entirely made up to seek attention, or perhaps the other way around. Its possible, given her history, that Leslie Kean went out of her way to find someone like Grusch who would have the veneer of credibility and the lack of a spine to say whatever she asked him to. Fame is a helluva drug. People get intoxicated on the mere thought of being exposed to it. That's why actual journalists have a system to vet their sources.
I won't debate the factual accuracy of your points regarding stealth in space, but I will stand by the view that I initially expressed and then deviated from. If there is any alien intelligence capable of interstellar travel, all bets are off. It is incredibly unlikely that it is within a million or a billion years of our level of consciousness and technology. A slime mold might perform an EXHAUSTIVE search of the petri dish it inhabits and find not even the slightest hint of foreign intelligence, because it is a slime mold. Yeah, sure, we could spot an F-22 anywhere in the solar system. But I do not believe that we could spot an alien version of an F-22, the same as I would not trust an ant to monitor the correct radio frequencies to overhear telecommunications between my PC and yours. If credible evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence dropping by and periodically crashing is produced, and I fully accept how monstrously big of an if that really is, I do not think we can disprove it by saying "well why did they do that" or "how come radio astronomy didn't see it." It's so far outside our understanding, inevitably, that no amount of human logic or reasoning should be applied.
The problem with that argument is that until we meet an alien, for all we know we ARE the most intelligent beings in our universe, there is nothing outside our petri dish, and the laws of physics as we know them are the only ones we can apply. Otherwise, we might as well be looking for fricken fairies, not aliens. Gods, not spaceships. As soon as you depart from the known and invoke the unknowable, you depart the realm of logic and enter the realm of just-so stories, i.e. science fiction. There are no limits to what you can invoke when functional magic is on the table.

This is why its called the Appeal to Ignorance fallacy. You don't know, I don't know, but jumping from I don't know what they are capable of to "But I'm sure we won't be able to detect them" is a leap of logic. That's saying you DO know what they are capable of. You are saying they are capable of very precisely controlling their spaceship's emissions to look just like a piece of cold rock drifting through the solar system with no apparent purpose or direction. But because you don't know what they are capable of because you don't know for sure they even exist, you can't make that assertion! Human intelligence doesn't let us violate the known laws of physics, why should aliens be given greater leeway?
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by KraytKing »

Formless wrote: 2023-06-08 01:33am The problem with that argument is that until we meet an alien, for all we know we ARE the most intelligent beings in our universe, there is nothing outside our petri dish, and the laws of physics as we know them are the only ones we can apply. Otherwise, we might as well be looking for fricken fairies, not aliens. Gods, not spaceships. As soon as you depart from the known and invoke the unknowable, you depart the realm of logic and enter the realm of just-so stories, i.e. science fiction. There are no limits to what you can invoke when functional magic is on the table.

This is why its called the Appeal to Ignorance fallacy. You don't know, I don't know, but jumping from I don't know what they are capable of to "But I'm sure we won't be able to detect them" is a leap of logic. That's saying you DO know what they are capable of. You are saying they are capable of very precisely controlling their spaceship's emissions to look just like a piece of cold rock drifting through the solar system with no apparent purpose or direction. But because you don't know what they are capable of because you don't know for sure they even exist, you can't make that assertion!
That's all true, I don't disagree with you. I don't say that as evidence that aliens exist, I only mean it that conclusively proving that they do NOT exist, or that they have not visited us, is not possible. "Aliens have not visited because there is not a shred of evidence to suggest they have" is perfectly reasonable. "Aliens have not visited us because this piece of machined technology with a pilot was not spotted flying into our system, we would have seen it" is not. IF evidence WAS ever presented, which it has not and likely never will be, then it could not be discredited by the failure of our instrumentation.
Human intelligence doesn't let us violate the known laws of physics, why should aliens be given greater leeway?
Sure it does, all the time. The violations just become the new laws of physics. The idea that you could bang some metal together and annihilate a city violates all known laws of physics of the 16th century, but human intelligence let us violate those laws. Same with every other scientific advance we've ever made, I think my point is clear. So yeah, our intelligence in a few million years, or an alien intelligence now, probably would violate a few more laws, like radiation, c, what have you.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by Solauren »

Very true.

We can not say definitively that alien life does not exist beyond our world. Primarily because we haven't done exhaustive investigation on any world but ours (where we've found life, but the intelligence of it is highly debated).

Even if we manage to colonize and do exhaustive searches on every planet in our solar system, we will only be able to say 'we haven't found alien life in our solar system'.

Continuing outward, even if we find no other worlds supporting native life, we'll only ever be able to say "we haven't found Alien life were we have looked", unless we come up with some technology that let's us 'scan' the entire universe instantly and constantly. Then it will be 'there is no other life in THIS universe." etc...

The investigations we have done in the universe to date, are nothing. If the universe was a book, we wouldn't even have gotten out of bed yet, to shower, dress, eat, get in the car, drive to the book store, select, purchase, and bring the book home, let alone started to read it.

Hell, we might not even own the car we're going to use to drive to the bookstore yet, or even live in the town the book is in.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by LadyTevar »

why are they bothering to come to our solar system in the first place? What is so interesting about the Solar System?
I've seen some Sci-Fi say it's not to see us, but because our Moon. The Moon is unusual in that it's size and position allows it to perfectly eclipse our Sun, and does so in a spectacular fashion on a predicable basis so that there's at least 2 full or partial Solar Eclipses Per YEAR.
Now, not all of those are in an area where humans can view them (unless on a boat). Same goes for the Lunar Eclipses, at least two per year, usually within 2weeks of the Solar Eclipse.

So, the Aliens are eco-tourists, and like climbers on Mt. Everest, some don't make it home. :D
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by Batman »

Also our moon is exceptionally large and massive (at least if our solar system is a statistically representative) relative to the planet it's orbiting.
We know very little about what's going on outside our own system (hell we know little enough about most of what going on IN our solar solar system) so who's to say that doesn't attract science tourists?
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by bilateralrope »

KraytKing wrote: 2023-06-08 12:28am
Well, yeah. Who else are you gonna go to about UFO news? If you have a story on election fraud, you call Fox News because you know they'll cover it. If you have Russian war crimes on video, you don't call the Duran or TASS. I agree that this is a blow to his credibility, don't get me wrong. But not that severe. News agencies will cover what they cover, people with stories have to work with that.
Are you familiar with The Boy Who Cried Wolf ?

Fox News has put out a lot of lies about election fraud. So, when they put out another story about election fraud, a lot of people are going to assume it is a lie because Fox News is airing it. That is the reputation they have earned for themselves. The reputation that taints any story they air.

It's the same idea with UFO news. Go to the UFO cranks and you'll be tainting your story with their reputation.

If you want the story to be believed, you should try to convince whoever has a reputation for treating stories like it with scrutiny. Because, if you convince them, their scrutiny of previous stories will benefit the credibility of your story.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by KraytKing »

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/senato ... 023-07-14/

The plot thickens.
WASHINGTON, July 14 (Reuters) - The Senate in the coming days is expected to consider a bipartisan measure that would compel the U.S. government to publicly release records relating to possible UFO sightings after decades of stonewalling.

Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, a Democrat, has teamed up with Senator Mike Rounds, a Republican, in leading an effort to force the disclosure of information relating to what the government officially calls "unidentified anomalous phenomena," or UAPs. Their 64-page proposal is modeled after a 1992 U.S. law spelling out the handling of records related to the 1963 assassination of President John Kennedy.

They plan to offer the measure as an amendment to sweeping legislation moving through Congress that would authorize U.S. defense funding for the fiscal year beginning on Oct. 1.

Schumer's backing likely will carry sway with many of his fellow Democrats. Rounds is a member of the Senate's Intelligence and Armed Services committees.

"For decades, many Americans have been fascinated by objects mysterious and unexplained, and it's long past time they get some answers," Schumer said in a statement on Friday, adding that the public "has a right to learn about technologies of unknown origins, non-human intelligence and unexplainable phenomena."

The amendment would require the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration to collect UAP records from all relevant government offices under "a presumption of immediate disclosure," and a review board would have to provide a rationale for keeping documents classified.

"Our goal is to assure credibility with regard to any investigation or record keeping of materials" associated with UAPs, Rounds said.

Under the measure, records must be publicly disclosed in full no later than 25 years after they were created unless the U.S. president certifies that continued postponement is necessary because of a direct harm to national security.

It also establishes that the federal government would have "eminent domain" over any recovered technologies of unknown origin and any biological evidence of "non-human intelligence" that may be controlled by private individuals or entities.

Schumer is taking up a cause first advanced by the late Democratic Senator Harry Reid, who served as Senate majority leader from 2007 until 2015.

The U.S. government in the past was openly dismissive of UFO sightings that for decades have sparked the popular imagination, but in recent years has been much more open about the subject. It issued a watershed unclassified report in 2021 cataloguing observations - mostly from U.S. Navy personnel - dating back to 2004.

The Pentagon has investigated numerous unexplained sightings reported by military aviators and NASA formed a special panel to look into UAPs. The NASA panel in May said its study is hindered by a lack of high-quality data, as well as the stigma surrounding the whole issue of unidentified objects in the skies, which often end up being balloons and debris or related to atmospheric causes.

(This story has been corrected to show records must be disclosed 25 years after their creation, not after the law is enacted, in paragraph 8)
Reporting by Josephine Walker; Editing by Richard Cowan, Will Dunham and William Mallard
I don't think the article does the legislation justice. Here are some interesting bits, found at https://www.congress.gov/amendment/118t ... t/797/text:
Legislation is necessary because credible evidence and
testimony indicates that Federal Government unidentified
anomalous phenomena records exist that have not been
declassified or subject to mandatory declassification review
as set forth in Executive Order 13526 (50 U.S.C. 3161 note;
relating to classified national security information) due in
part to exemptions under the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 (42
U.S.C. 2011 et seq.), as well as an over-broad interpretation
of ``transclassified foreign nuclear information'', which is
also exempt from mandatory declassification, thereby
preventing public disclosure under existing provisions of
law.
(A) In general.--The term ``unidentified anomalous
phenomena'' means any object operating or judged capable of
operating in outer-space, the atmosphere, ocean surfaces, or
undersea lacking prosaic attribution due to performance
characteristics and properties not previously known to be
achievable

based upon commonly accepted physical principles.
Unidentified anomalous phenomena are differentiated from both
attributed and temporarily non-attributed objects by one or
more of the following observables:
(i) Instantaneous acceleration absent apparent inertia.
(ii) Hypersonic velocity absent a thermal signature and
sonic shockwave.
(iii) Transmedium (such as space-to-ground and air-to-
undersea) travel.
(iv) Positive lift contrary to known aerodynamic
principles.
(v) Multispectral signature control.
(vi) Physical or invasive biological effects to close
observers and the environment.
(B) Inclusions.--The term ``unidentified anomalous
phenomena'' includes what were previously described as--
(i) flying discs;
(ii) flying saucers;
(iii) unidentified aerial phenomena;
(iv) unidentified flying objects (UFOs); and
(v) unidentified submerged objects (USOs).

(a) Exercise of Eminent Domain.--The Federal Government
shall exercise eminent domain over any and all recovered
technologies of unknown origin and biological evidence of
non-human intelligence that may be controlled by private
persons or entities in the interests of the public good.
Seems like someone in Congress thought Grusch wasn't full of shit.
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Re: Intelligence Officials Say US Has Retrieved Craft of Non-Human Origin

Post by Solauren »

Even if it passes, anything released will be heavily redacted for 'national security'.
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