UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Darth Yan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2255
Joined: 2008-12-29 02:09pm
Location: California

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Darth Yan »

Except the Yishuv were discussing forced expulsion BEFORE the holocaust. The palestinians saw them as invaders coming to take their land....and the Yishuv did nothing to prove them wrong.
User avatar
Tribble
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2873
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Tribble »

Or rather I should say I do have sympathy and would prefer to see the fighting stop, I don’t see why it will, regardless of concessions on either side. If Israel for example completely withdrew to the 1967 border (as unlikely as that outcome is) the response will no doubt be the Palestinian rockets moving that much closer and attacks intensifying due to perceived Israeli weakness. Even if Israel dissolved itself and disarmed (even more unlikely) I highly doubt the violence would stop - much more likely the Palestinians and other middle eastern powers go on a killing spree.

Vice versa too - I don’t see Israel stopping it’s actions even if Palestinians were to genuinely and completely disarm (as unlikely as that seems), as that would ALSO be perceived as a sign of Palestinian weakness.

The idea Israel should not exist / should be destroyed, even IF that were the preferable outcome for some, is not a practical one. Unless you don’t mind the millions who will no doubt die in the process on both sides, particularly with WMD use. Then by all means go right ahead. MADD doctrine is fully at play here.

Hopefully a full economic and military boycott would have at least have some impact.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - The official Troll motto, as stated by Adam Savage
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4120
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Jub »

Tribble wrote: 2021-05-14 09:29pmWere the Jewish people really given much of a choice given their “benefactors” were still trying to get rid of them, only via guarantees of going to an ancestral homeland vs mass shootings and gas chambers? Especially knowing that a good chunk of Europe still very much wanted to see them all dead? I don’t blame them for leaving, and I don’t excuse Palestinians for taking up arms and trying to kill them for decades, even though there were plenty of mistakes made. You don’t get sympathy from me when you too have no problems killing the people you don’t want around.
They always had a choice that didn't involve Yishuv forcibly occupying Palestine while a proper agreement to settle the Jewish people was still taking place. The Jewish people could have chosen integration, as was always a choice open to them, and they opted for bloodshed instead. I don't respect that and as such, I cannot respect Israel from its founding to the present day.
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4120
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Jub »

Tribble wrote: 2021-05-14 09:52pmThe idea Israel should not exist / should be destroyed, even IF that were the preferable outcome for some, is not a practical one. Unless you don’t mind the millions who will no doubt die in the process on both sides, particularly with WMD use. Then by all means go right ahead. MADD doctrine is fully at play here.
It's entirely practical, if equally unlikely. Canada or the US could literally give Israel more land within their borders than the nation currently covers without even missing it, but that would require the Jewish people to abandon the holy land that they reclaimed via bloodshed. For an ethnostate with a specific goal of keeping a specific view of the Jewish ideal alive, they would probably prefer the WMDs to such a capitulation even if it's the humane thing to do.
User avatar
Darth Yan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2255
Joined: 2008-12-29 02:09pm
Location: California

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Darth Yan »

Honestly I think you're being silly. Most palestinians would happily lay down arms if Israel made actual concessions. I don't trust Israel to do the same.

Yes the Yishuv suffered and that was wrong; they still took on the value of their abusers and so became the bad guys.
User avatar
Tribble
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2873
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Tribble »

And here we have the latest example of why Israel v Palestine is a banned topic.

We are in fundamental opposition with others and demand concession on opinions that are not going to change. There is little use in continuing on with the discussion unless we are all looking forward to a flame war.

Obviously I'm just as responsible as everyone else here for joining in (as I do have my own opinions and it is a passionate topic) however I am leaving the conversation. Note this not because I am conceding (I have plenty more to say) but I don't see the point and would rather simply agree to disagree.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - The official Troll motto, as stated by Adam Savage
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4120
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Jub »

Tribble wrote: 2021-05-14 10:30pm And here we have the latest example of why Israel v Palestine is a banned topic.

We are in fundamental opposition with others and demand concession on opinions that are not going to change. There is little use in continuing on with the discussion unless we are all looking forward to a flame war.

Obviously I'm just as responsible as everyone else here for joining in (as I do have my own opinions and it is a passionate topic) however I am leaving the conversation. Note this not because I am conceding (I have plenty more to say) but I don't see the point and would rather simply agree to disagree.
You've literally defended Yishuv carving out a new Jewish state in Palestine because waiting would have been hard for the Jewish people. In what world can your viewpoint be seen as valid?
User avatar
EnterpriseSovereign
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2737
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm
Location: High orbit

Death toll climbs as Palestinians flee Israeli fire in Gaza

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Seven Palestinians were killed by Israeli army fire in the West Bank on Friday, Palestinian health officials have said.
The health ministry says most were killed in stone-throwing clashes with Israeli forces in several locations, while one was killed during an attempt to stab an Israeli soldier.
The health officials said some 100 Palestinians were injured, most of them by live fire.
The West Bank violence comes as Israel unleashed a heavy barrage of tank fire and airstrikes on the Gaza Strip on Friday, killing a family of six in their home. Israel said it was clearing a network of militant tunnels ahead of a possible ground invasion.

As a result of the assault, Palestinians grabbed their children and belongings and fled neighbourhoods on the outskirts of Gaza City.

Israel has also massed troops along the border and called up 9,000 reservists following days of fighting with the Islamic militant group Hamas, which controls Gaza.

Palestinian militants have fired some 1,800 rockets and the Israeli military has launched more than 600 air strikes, toppling at least three apartment blocks.

As Israel and Hamas plunged closer to all-out war, despite international efforts at a cease-fire, communal violence in Israel has erupted for a fourth night, with Jewish and Arab mobs clashing in the flashpoint town of Lod.

The Gaza Health Ministry said the toll from the fighting has risen to 119 killed, including 31 children and 19 women. It added that 830 have been wounded. The Hamas and Islamic Jihad militant groups have confirmed 20 deaths in their ranks. However, Israel insist that number is much higher. Seven people have been killed in Israel, including a six-year-old boy.
Before dawn on Friday, Israeli tanks and warplanes carried out an intense barrage on the northern end of the Gaza Strip.

In the northern Gaza Strip, Rafat Tanani, his pregnant wife and four children were killed after an Israeli warplane reduced the building to rubble, residents said. Sadallah Tanani, a relative, said the family was wiped out from the population register" without warning.

"It was a massacre. My feelings are indescribable," he said.

Houda Ouda recalled that her family frantically ran indoors in their hometown of Beit Hanoun, in an attempt to find shelter as the earth shook for two-and-half hours.

“We even did not dare to look from the window to know what is being hit,” she said.

When daylight came, she witnessed the destruction outside: streets cratered, buildings crushed, dust and powered concrete covering everything.

Lt Col Jonathan Conricus, an Israeli military spokesman, said tanks stationed near the border fired 50 rounds.

It was part of a large operation that also involved air strikes and was aimed at destroying tunnels beneath Gaza City used by militants to evade surveillance and air strikes, which the military refers to as "the Metro".

"As always, the aim is to strike military targets and to minimise collateral damage and civilian casualties," he said.

"Unlike our very elaborate efforts to clear civilian areas before we strike high-rise or large buildings inside Gaza, that wasn’t feasible this time."

Thousands packed into 16 UN-run schools for shelter, said Adnan Abu Hasna, a spokesman for UNRWA, the UN relief agency for Palestinians.

The strikes came after Egyptian mediators rushed to Israel for ceasefire talks that showed no signs of progress.

Saleh Aruri, an exiled senior Hamas leader, told the satellite channel Al Araby that his group has turned down a proposal for a three-hour lull.

He said Egypt, Qatar and the United Nations were leading the truce efforts.

The fighting broke out late on Monday when Hamas fired a long-range rocket at Jerusalem. The move was in support of Palestinian protests there against the policing of a flashpoint holy site and efforts by Jewish settlers to evict dozens of Palestinian families from their homes.

Since then, Israel has attacked hundreds of targets in Gaza, causing massive explosions across the densely populated territory.

Rockets fired by Gaza militants have brought life in parts of southern Israel to a standstill, and several barrages have targeted the seaside metropolis of Tel Aviv, some 45 miles away from Gaza.

Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed to continue the operation, saying in a video statement that Israel would "extract a very heavy price from Hamas".

In Washington, US president Joe Biden said he spoke with Mr Netanyahu about calming the fighting but also backed the Israeli leader by saying “there has not been a significant over-reaction".

He said the goal now is to "get to a point where there is a significant reduction in attacks, particularly rocket attacks".

He called the effort "a work in progress".

Israel has come under heavy international criticism for civilian casualties during three previous wars in Gaza, which is home to more than two million Palestinians.

It says Hamas is responsible for endangering civilians by placing military infrastructure in civilian areas and launching rockets from them.

Hamas has showed no signs of backing down. It fired its most powerful rocket, the Ayyash, nearly 120 miles into southern Israel. The rocket landed in the open desert but briefly disrupted flight traffic at the southern Ramon airport. Hamas has also launched two drones that Israel said it quickly shot down.

The fighting cast a pall over the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Fitr, normally marked by family gatherings and festive meals. Instead, the streets of Gaza were mostly empty.

The current eruption of violence began a month ago in Jerusalem. A focal point of clashes was Jerusalem’s Al-Aqsa Mosque, built on a hilltop compound that is revered by Jews and Muslims.

Israel regards all of Jerusalem as its capital, while the Palestinians want east Jerusalem, which includes sites sacred to Jews, Christians and Muslims, to be the capital of their future state.

The violent clashes between Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem and other mixed cities across Israel has meanwhile added a new layer of volatility to the conflict not seen in more than two decades.
Link.
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

"As you know science is not fact"- HuskerJay
"The Delta Fyler [sic] isn't even a shuttle craft" -HuskerJay69
"The Dominion War wasn't really all that bad"- Admiral Mercury
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29632
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by MKSheppard »

Darth Yan wrote: 2021-05-14 10:05pmMost palestinians would happily lay down arms if Israel made actual concessions. I don't trust Israel to do the same.
Here's the thing.

If by act of Grud, I ended up replacing the head of HAMAS in Gaza as of about a month ago, with foreknowledge, here's my master plan of evil.

1.) I immediately enact a purge of HAMAS of all loose elements. By purge, I mean they get taken into a basement and they don't come back out. My plan is too important to come undone by a bunch of morons.

2.) After the whole Al-Aqsa Mosque incident ignites, I wait a day or two; let things get inflamed, and then I:

3.) Issue an UDI (Unilateral Declaration of Independence) for the Islamic Republic of Palestine, composed of my fiefdom of Gaza.

4.) Israel is now effectively turbo fucked. There's nothing they can do that doesn't result in them becoming a pariah like Rhodesia if they do anything to me now.

Unfortunately for the Palestinians, it's Islamist elements in charge of HAMAS who are running their usual "try to kill the juice" playbook, rather than actual nationalists.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
Ralin
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3287
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Ralin »

MKSheppard wrote: 2021-05-15 05:24pm
3.) Issue an UDI (Unilateral Declaration of Independence) for the Islamic Republic of Palestine, composed of my fiefdom of Gaza.

4.) Israel is now effectively turbo fucked. There's nothing they can do that doesn't result in them becoming a pariah like Rhodesia if they do anything to me now.
...Yeah. The world definitely wouldn't tolerate Israeli violence against Palestinians after that.

The fuck are you on about?
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29632
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by MKSheppard »

Ralin wrote: 2021-05-15 06:19pm...Yeah. The world definitely wouldn't tolerate Israeli violence against Palestinians after that.

The fuck are you on about?
I'll simplify it for you -- HAMAS before this all started held all the cards, and basically threw it away by attacking first with the usual rocket attack using the AA Mosque in Jerusalem as a casus-belli.

Simply declare your independence and start carrying about like a normal government and instead have the casus belli be when the Israeli Navy tries to stop you from having a seaport and an outside connection to the world via blockade/naval gunfire -- and send your suicide drones against the Israeli Navy offshore instead of just spamming rockets at central Israel.

This way, you carefully maneuver Israel onto Fatal Terrain in international opinion.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29632
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by MKSheppard »

And I am hearing rumors that HAMAS has switched things up:

In retaliation for the IAF blowing up what passes for skyscrapers in the Gaza Strip (20~ storey buildings), they have declared that they will destroy a specific building in Tel Aviv tonight.

Current rumors are that some of the missiles going out aren't the usual evolved Katyusha-type multiple rocket launchers, but actual Iranian-supplied short range ballistic missiles (SRBMs).
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 27498
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Broomstick »

Jub wrote: 2021-05-14 10:04pm
Tribble wrote: 2021-05-14 09:52pmThe idea Israel should not exist / should be destroyed, even IF that were the preferable outcome for some, is not a practical one. Unless you don’t mind the millions who will no doubt die in the process on both sides, particularly with WMD use. Then by all means go right ahead. MADD doctrine is fully at play here.
It's entirely practical, if equally unlikely. Canada or the US could literally give Israel more land within their borders than the nation currently covers without even missing it, but that would require the Jewish people to abandon the holy land that they reclaimed via bloodshed.
Actually, the number of Jews in the US is roughly the same as the number of Jews in Israel, so that's sort of already happened. The difference being that Jews in America are not locked into a small land area that's constantly under siege.

The problem for many Jews, no amount of land anywhere, no matter how big, would equal any amount of land in Israel, no matter how small. And the people who used to live on the land now occupied by Jews are, understandably, a bit pissed off about the situation.

I don't have an answer for this situation. Both sides have intractable extremists that are willing and even happy to kill the other side and/or die for the cause. A pox on both their houses.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29632
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by MKSheppard »

Darth Yan wrote: 2021-05-14 06:13pmYou were outright genocidal and openly called Palestinians vermin. That's not righteous; that was just you being an asshole.
Lets examine this:

Since we have an easily findable keyword and a known username, the thread in question shakes down to:

Are Iraqi Insurgents Terrorists? from the prehistoric days of October 2004.

and the quote in question was:
A true insurgency respects the law; these people do not. For example, in Thailand, one of their insurgency movements is accorded the legal status of a military, IE, POW exchanges, and suchlike, because they follow the laws of war, while the others who don't are hunted down and exterminated like the Vermin they are.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4120
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Jub »

Broomstick wrote: 2021-05-15 07:02pmI don't have an answer for this situation. Both sides have intractable extremists that are willing and even happy to kill the other side and/or die for the cause. A pox on both their houses.
At this point, there isn't one. What I will say is that if Israel wins what does that look like? Do the states using Hamas as a proxy to fight Israel just walk away or does this simply escalate things? If Palestine wins, and it could only do so if Israel's allies all pulled back and left them fighting alone, then the region is far more likely to see peace and Jewish resettlement to less hostile regions of the globe.

Of course, neither of this will ever happen so... *shrugs* I guess it goes until one side deploys a WMD or global politics change so drastically that religion and ethnicity are no longer a cause for divide.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 27498
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Broomstick »

Jub wrote: 2021-05-15 09:22pm
Broomstick wrote: 2021-05-15 07:02pmI don't have an answer for this situation. Both sides have intractable extremists that are willing and even happy to kill the other side and/or die for the cause. A pox on both their houses.
At this point, there isn't one. What I will say is that if Israel wins what does that look like? Do the states using Hamas as a proxy to fight Israel just walk away or does this simply escalate things?
Escalates. Having a perpetual bad guy to blame things on is just too convenient.

If the "Arab neighbors" actually gave a damn about Palestinians they'd offer them a place to live outside refugee camps. So far as I know, the only one that has really stepped up has been Jordan, with more than three million living there and most have become citizens there. However much the Saudis profess to care for their "Arab brothers" they apparently aren't very willing to give them refuge.
Jub wrote: 2021-05-15 09:22pmIf Palestine wins, and it could only do so if Israel's allies all pulled back and left them fighting alone, then the region is far more likely to see peace and Jewish resettlement to less hostile regions of the globe.
If Israel's allies all pulled back then Israel's enemies would pummel and blockade it into submission. And I think there would be far more slaughter and fewer people to resettle anywhere. So sure, there would be peace in the region... until someone else decided to get pissed off about something. After all, the current mess in Syria has nothing to do with Israel. Slaughtering Kurds has nothing to do with Israel. Attempted genocide on the Yazidis by ISIS/ISIL had nothing to do with Israel. People have been squabbling over Middle East real estate for the last 10,000 years, I don't expect that to change in my lifetime. There will be no peace in the Middle East.

It remains that there aren't that many places in the world friendly to Jews outside Israel and the US. Some European nations will tolerate them, but recent moves to outlaw circumcision and/or ritual slaughter makes those places less and less appealing to observant Jews who want to continue their ancient practices without interference.

Israel pulling a genocide on the Palestinians would make Jews - even those that have had nothing to do with Israel, its policies, or have even expressed their opposition - unwelcome most places. There would not be a resettlement of the Jews from Israel, I expect there would be a slaughter. Even the US would have demonstrations against bringing more of them in that weren't already US citizens at this point.
Jub wrote: 2021-05-15 09:22pmOf course, neither of this will ever happen so... *shrugs* I guess it goes until one side deploys a WMD or global politics change so drastically that religion and ethnicity are no longer a cause for divide.
Think WMD are far more likely that the latter, sad to say.

On the days my more base impulses surface in my brain I think that leveling Jerusalem, telling the Abrahamic religions that since you can't stop squabbling over this place NONE of you can have it anymore, might "solve" the problem but it really wouldn't, it would just generate a mighty shitstorm.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Ralin
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3287
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Ralin »

Broomstick wrote: 2021-05-16 04:57am Israel pulling a genocide on the Palestinians would make Jews - even those that have had nothing to do with Israel, its policies, or have even expressed their opposition - unwelcome most places. There would not be a resettlement of the Jews from Israel, I expect there would be a slaughter. Even the US would have demonstrations against bringing more of them in that weren't already US citizens at this point.
Uh...why do you think that would happen when all the murder and ethnic cleansing Israel has already carried out hasn't already?
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10467
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Elfdart »

MKSheppard wrote: 2021-05-14 04:45pm At this point...

Nothing ever changes.

There's only so many times this script can play out before you get tired and find it repetitive.

Trump showed us the way -- don't waste your time killing low level people -- go straight to the top.

Kill Ismail Haniyeh within 60 minutes of the initiation of hostilities, instead of trumpeting how you have "decimated" HAMAS leadership by killing 87 people we never heard of, but are apparently "directors of rocket engineering units".

As I get older, I become more transactional and less "righteous", so to speak.

From a strictly transactional point of view, it makes sense to support Israel for a few reasons:

A.) Israel provides us with hard intelligence on Islamists -- recently, it appears that some of the key information that allowed us to track, and eventually kill Soleimani, came from the Israelis, who passed it to us.
Soleimani wasn't an "Islamist". The Iranians, Russians and Syrians, along with Iraqi Shiites, are fighting against Islamists -like the Al Qaeda/Al Nusra/ISIS thugs being admitted into IDF hospitals, then turned loose again to rape more girls and behead more boys.
B.) Their defense industry provides a nice way for "combat testing" all sorts of interesting ideas (IRON DOME, TROPHY APS, ARROW ABM) without our troops directly in the line of fire.
Just like Guernica gave the Luftwaffe valuable "combat testing" all sorts of interesting ideas, right?
C.) Israeli industrial base -- pretty decent in terms of computers and biotech -- about 15 years ago, Intel Haifa saved Intel's asses with the Core series of CPUs.
Gee, maybe if they spent more effort on that and less on acquiring Lebensraum, they'd be better off as well as their neighbors.
With all that said, as I age, I find myself, as a conservative, reassessing the amount of energy I expend defending the State of Israel in various arenas (including online), because if we view this as a purely transactional exchange -- Reform Jews in the US have never met a Gun Control Bill they didn't like, as well as backing all sorts of things that are antiethical to what I believe in -- 600 Jewish denominations, organizations, and synagogues do a full page BLM ad in local Washington DC papers in August 2020

Meanwhile, in Israel as of now...ish, we have mobs of Jewish youths chasing Arabs around in Lod and lynching them. I guess Arab Lives Don't Matter in Israel. :roll:
That sort of thing has always gone on, only now that everyone has a phone with a built-in video camera, there's an endless supply of footage of Palestinians getting Ku Kluxed.
If I'm going to take shit from the global community for vetoing UN resolutions against Israel (among other things), along with taking shit for shipping various military-industrial products (Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, etc) to Israel so they can go boom-boom; I expect a transactional quid-pro-quo for my efforts.

Want boom boom for the IAF? Schumer and Feinstein better shut the fuck up, etc.
I have nothing but contempt for those two-faced liberal American Jews who are about as "liberal" as Bull Connor when it comes to Israel, but it's ridiculous to suggest that liberal Jews should adopt right-wing policies at home in exchange for support for Greater Israel. A better solution is to quit seconding Israel when they commit atrocities.
But more honestly?

Israel basically lost this war 15 or so years ago when they didn't order a full out assault to take Gaza in the last missile slugging match.

It was never clear to HAMAS and the international community that HAMAS got it's ass kicked; because the IDF high command and the Israeli political leadership were too afraid of losing thousands of troops to do what needed to be done.

They didn't want to pay the price in blood, and chose to defer it.

Well now here we are, and the political landscape is totally different 15 years later.
Again Dr Shep, your diagnosis is right (hypocritical liberal Jews, Israel suffering "body bag syndrome"), but your prescription is wrong. If the IDF considers the lives of their troopers so precious, they shouldn't gin up hostilities in the first place. This most recent Rosewood-style pogrom was incited when Israeli hooligans emulated racist crackers in the South circa 1960 and went "nigger-knocking" on Palestinians AND Arab Israelis -as police and soldiers either looked the other way or joined in the festivities. If they had done what police and soldiers in civilized countries do, and arrested Israel's version of the Cahaba Boys, there would have been no tit-for-tat and a bunch of recently slaughtered kids would still be alive.
We have only one election cycle in the USA before AOC and her group goes MADNESS? THIS IS SPARTAAAAAAAAA and kicks the old guard of the DNC into the pit.
Nah, New York lost a congressional seat after the last census and her seat will be the one that gets the chop. The DNC will never forgive her for trouncing a hack like Crowley.
Meanwhile, boomer neoconservatives are being purged from the Republican party, starting with Liz Cheney.
Good!
What happens when US interference in favor of Israel (via vetoing UN resolutions etc) is no longer guaranteed due to the realignment of American party politics due to population growth?
Or the fact that among American Jews under the age of 40, Israel's government is about as popular as dandruff? Or the fact that fundie Christianity is on a steep downward spiral like the one Catholicism had in Spain after Franco, as they were much more fervently pro-IDF than American Jews ever were?
I mean, hell; as of 2019, there were 2.7~ million Indian immigrants (vs about 5.8M adult Jews) in the US and Indians are one of the fastest growing minority groups. They also tend to be business owners and thus donate to political parties. The time is coming when the PM of India is going to be more important politically to the US President concerning internal US domestic politics than whoever replaces God Emperor Netanyahu on the Golden Throne.
Then Netanyahoo can join Chang Kai-Shek, Thieu, Marcos, Duvalier and other clients cast aside by Uncle Sam for being more trouble that they were ever worth.

As for the rest, worrying over the tactics used to attack Gaza is as pointless as worrying over which flavor of fruit punch Jim Jones wants to spike with cyanide. I mean, I hear the strawberry totally masks the taste of the poison, while the cherry makes the taste stronger...
Image
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 20868
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by LadyTevar »

And this is why we have a RULE on Israeli/Palestine debates

Everyone Take Two (2) DAYS OFF. I'm locking this for 48 hrs so tempers can cool.
Image
Librium Arcana, Where Gamers Play!
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 20868
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by LadyTevar »

THREAD UNLOCKED.

WE WILL BE MONITORING THIS FOR TEMPERS RISING.
Image
Librium Arcana, Where Gamers Play!
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
EnterpriseSovereign
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2737
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm
Location: High orbit

Gunshots fired as Palestinians rally against Israeli policies in West Bank

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

In a so-called Day of Rage, Palestinians have taken to the streets in their hundreds to rally against Israel's bombardment of Gaza.

Clashes with Israeli troops happen often in the West Bank, but on Tuesday the protesters were armed as gunshots rang out on both sides.

In Ramallah, where an ITV News team took cover from gunfire, three Palestinians were reportedly killed while two Israeli soldiers were injured.

It came as Palestinians across Israel and the occupied territories went on strike in collective action against the state’s policies.

With the war in Gaza showing no sign of abating and truce efforts apparently stalled, the general strike and expected protests could widen the conflict after a spasm of communal violence in Israel and protests across the occupied West Bank last week.

The strike was intended to protest against the Gaza war and Israeli policies that many activists and some rights groups say constitute an overarching system of apartheid that denies Palestinians the rights afforded to Jews.

Israel rejects that characterisation, saying its citizens have equal rights. It blames the war on Hamas, the Islamic militant group that controls Gaza, and accuses it of inciting violence across the region.

It was a rare show of unity among Palestinian citizens of Israel, who make up 20% of its population, and those in the territories Israel seized in 1967 that the Palestinians have long sought for a future state of their own.

Leaders of the Palestinian community in Israel called the strike, which was embraced by the internationally-backed Palestinian Authority in the occupied West Bank, where ministries and schools were closed.

Most businesses appeared to be observing the strike, and protests were expected.

Muhammad Barakeh, one of the organisers of the strike, said Palestinians are expressing a “collective position” against Israel’s “aggression” in Gaza and Jerusalem, as well as the “brutal repression” by police across Israel.

Meanwhile, amid the continued fighting, a strike launched from Gaza has killed two Thai workers inside a packaging plant in Israel.

The Magen David Adom rescue service said it transported another seven wounded people to the hospital after the projectile attack.

Israel’s air strikes toppled a six-storey building that housed book stores and educational centres used by the Islamic University and other colleges, leaving behind a massive mound of rubble.

Israel warned the building’s residents ahead of time and there were no reports of casualties. Israel said it was targeting militants, their tunnels and rocket launchers across the territory.
Full article here.

Basically this flareup took everyone by surprise and political pressure is being aimed at the USA to in turn put pressure on Israel for a ceasefire:
On Monday, US President Joe Biden expressed support for a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas in a call to Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu - but he did not explicitly demand a stop to the Israeli air strikes and Hamas rocket barrages.
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

"As you know science is not fact"- HuskerJay
"The Delta Fyler [sic] isn't even a shuttle craft" -HuskerJay69
"The Dominion War wasn't really all that bad"- Admiral Mercury
User avatar
Darth Yan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2255
Joined: 2008-12-29 02:09pm
Location: California

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Darth Yan »

John Ossoff is pro Israel and he's pushing for it. That Blinken is refusing even though he knows damn well there's no evidence to support the "Hamas was storing weapons in journalist buildings" is also surprising.

I know Biden and the others have this mentality of "Israel is plucky against genocidal hordes" but this is getting ridiculous. You get the feeling that Biden is tacitly approving the violence
User avatar
Zwinmar
Jedi Knight
Posts: 988
Joined: 2005-03-24 11:55am
Location: nunyadamnbusiness

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Zwinmar »

I'm tired of the excuses. It's a blood feud that goes back to when the land was given to outsiders after WWII. Yeah yeah, historical homeland ..bullshit I say, that would be like me going back and trying to claim the old family homestead in upstate NY that was last in the possession of one of my direct ancestors 8 generations ago, or better yet, I can go claim the Feudal barony of Gloucester over in England because I can claim descendant from them.

It isn't about if they are [insert whatever race/ethnicity/religion here] it's about one side wanting implementing Manifest Destiny and getting push back for it. I understand all to well defending ones self and ones country, however, when you stir the shit pot do not cry foul when the others get pissed. Basically, its the Hatfield's and McCoy's writ large with outsiders cheering on their favorite side without actually providing meaningful assistance one way or the other.
User avatar
Darth Yan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2255
Joined: 2008-12-29 02:09pm
Location: California

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Darth Yan »

Israel's supporters are a dying breed; Chuck Schumer was complaining that younger jews are turning against Israel (he still believes the myths about the plucky zionists and doesn't want to acknowledge the records showing that the yishuv were murderous terrorists who were openly planning ethnic cleansing for years, and that the Palestinians were VERY justified in rejecting the table scraps Israel offered.)

Other than older Jews and boomers who can't accept that the state they admired never really existed (Israel has ALWAYS been a racist state built on cruelty and bloodshed) you only have white supremacists and western chauvinists. As more time passes Israel's going to become more of a pariah and I think they know this.
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6917
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: UN warns of 'full-scale war' as Israel Gaza conflict escalates

Post by Zaune »

Whatever the truth of the matter, if Israel hadn't already pissed away any goodwill they had left with their neighbours they've sure as hell done it now they deliberately targeted Al-Jazeera's offices. It's not the first time the IDF has killed people working for news agencies that are less than friendly to them but as far as I know it's the first time it's been done in a way they can't play off as accidental: Mistaking a camera with a telephoto lens for an M72 or something is plausible enough for reasonable doubt, but TV and radio transmitters on top of a tower block are impossible to mistake for anything else. Whoever gave the cleared-hot order knew who was going to be collateral damage and decided that they and their chain of command could live with it. And that's me being generous and assuming that Hamas were using one of the other units in the building as a safehouse and arms cache, and the airstrike wasn't a deliberate exercise in controlling the narrative.

Either way, the public and diplomatic relations blowback it generates is their own fault and their own problem.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
Post Reply