ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

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ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

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NYT
QADIYA, Iraq — In the moments before he raped the 12-year-old girl, the Islamic State fighter took the time to explain that what he was about to do was not a sin. Because the preteen girl practiced a religion other than Islam, the Quran not only gave him the right to rape her — it condoned and encouraged it, he insisted.

He bound her hands and gagged her. Then he knelt beside the bed and prostrated himself in prayer before getting on top of her.

When it was over, he knelt to pray again, bookending the rape with acts of religious devotion.

“I kept telling him it hurts — please stop,” said the girl, whose body is so small an adult could circle her waist with two hands. “He told me that according to Islam he is allowed to rape an unbeliever. He said that by raping me, he is drawing closer to God,” she said in an interview alongside her family in a refugee camp here, to which she escaped after 11 months of captivity.

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The systematic rape of women and girls from the Yazidi religious minority has become deeply enmeshed in the organization and the radical theology of the Islamic State in the year since the group announced it was reviving slavery as an institution. Interviews with 21 women and girls who recently escaped the Islamic State, as well as an examination of the group’s official communications, illuminate how the practice has been enshrined in the group’s core tenets.

The trade in Yazidi women and girls has created a persistent infrastructure, with a network of warehouses where the victims are held, viewing rooms where they are inspected and marketed, and a dedicated fleet of buses used to transport them.

A total of 5,270 Yazidis were abducted last year, and at least 3,144 are still being held, according to community leaders. To handle them, the Islamic State has developed a detailed bureaucracy of sex slavery, including sales contracts notarized by the ISIS-run Islamic courts. And the practice has become an established recruiting tool to lure men from deeply conservative Muslim societies, where casual sex is taboo and dating is forbidden.

A growing body of internal policy memos and theological discussions has established guidelines for slavery, including a lengthy how-to manual issued by the Islamic State Research and Fatwa Department just last month. Repeatedly, the ISIS leadership has emphasized a narrow and selective reading of the Quran and other religious rulings to not only justify violence, but also to elevate and celebrate each sexual assault as spiritually beneficial, even virtuous.

“Every time that he came to rape me, he would pray,” said F, a 15-year-old girl who was captured on the shoulder of Mount Sinjar one year ago and was sold to an Iraqi fighter in his 20s. Like some others interviewed by The New York Times, she wanted to be identified only by her first initial because of the shame associated with rape.

“He kept telling me this is ibadah,” she said, using a term from Islamic scripture meaning worship.

“He said that raping me is his prayer to God. I said to him, ‘What you’re doing to me is wrong, and it will not bring you closer to God.’ And he said, ‘No, it’s allowed. It’s halal,’ ” said the teenager, who escaped in April with the help of smugglers after being enslaved for nearly nine months.

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Calculated Conquest

The Islamic State’s formal introduction of systematic sexual slavery dates to Aug. 3, 2014, when its fighters invaded the villages on the southern flank of Mount Sinjar, a craggy massif of dun-colored rock in northern Iraq.

Its valleys and ravines are home to the Yazidis, a tiny religious minority who represent less than 1.5 percent of Iraq’s estimated population of 34 million.

The offensive on the mountain came just two months after the fall of Mosul, the second-largest city in Iraq. At first, it appeared that the subsequent advance on the mountain was just another attempt to extend the territory controlled by Islamic State fighters.

Almost immediately, there were signs that their aim this time was different.

Survivors say that men and women were separated within the first hour of their capture. Adolescent boys were told to lift up their shirts, and if they had armpit hair, they were directed to join their older brothers and fathers. In village after village, the men and older boys were driven or marched to nearby fields, where they were forced to lie down in the dirt and sprayed with automatic fire.

The women, girls and children, however, were hauled off in open-bed trucks.

“The offensive on the mountain was as much a sexual conquest as it was for territorial gain,” said Matthew Barber, a University of Chicago expert on the Yazidi minority. He was in Dohuk, near Mount Sinjar, when the onslaught began last summer and helped create a foundation that provides psychological support for the escapees, who number more than 2,000, according to community activists.

Fifteen-year-old F says her family of nine was trying to escape, speeding up mountain switchbacks, when their aging Opel overheated. She, her mother, and her sisters — 14, 7, and 4 years old — were helplessly standing by their stalled car when a convoy of heavily armed Islamic State fighters encircled them.

“Right away, the fighters separated the men from the women,” she said. She, her mother and sisters were first taken in trucks to the nearest town on Mount Sinjar. “There, they separated me from my mom. The young, unmarried girls were forced to get into buses.”

The buses were white, with a painted stripe next to the word “Hajj,” suggesting that the Islamic State had commandeered Iraqi government buses used to transport pilgrims for the annual pilgrimage to Mecca. So many Yazidi women and girls were loaded inside F’s bus that they were forced to sit on each other’s laps, she said.

Once the bus headed out, they noticed that the windows were blocked with curtains, an accouterment that appeared to have been added because the fighters planned to transport large numbers of women who were not covered in burqas or head scarves.

F’s account, including the physical description of the bus, the placement of the curtains and the manner in which the women were transported, is echoed by a dozen other female victims interviewed for this article. They described a similar set of circumstances even though they were kidnapped on different days and in locations miles apart.F says she was driven to the Iraqi city of Mosul some six hours away, where they herded them into the Galaxy Wedding Hall. Other groups of women and girls were taken to a palace from the Saddam Hussein era, the Badoosh prison compound and the Directory of Youth building in Mosul, recent escapees said. And in addition to Mosul, women were herded into elementary schools and municipal buildings in the Iraqi towns of Tal Afar, Solah, Ba’aj and Sinjar City.

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They would be held in confinement, some for days, some for months. Then, inevitably, they were loaded into the same fleet of buses again before being sent in smaller groups to Syria or to other locations inside Iraq, where they were bought and sold for sex.

“It was 100 percent preplanned,” said Khider Domle, a Yazidi community activist who maintains a detailed database of the victims. “I spoke by telephone to the first family who arrived at the Directory of Youth in Mosul, and the hall was already prepared for them. They had mattresses, plates and utensils, food and water for hundreds of people.”

Detailed reports by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International reach the same conclusion about the organized nature of the sex trade.

In each location, survivors say Islamic State fighters first conducted a census of their female captives.

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Makes one wonder, does it not? What has our interference in the Middle East accomplished to date?
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Inside the voluminous Galaxy banquet hall, F sat on the marble floor, squeezed between other adolescent girls. In all she estimates there were over 1,300 Yazidi girls sitting, crouching, splayed out and leaning against the walls of the ballroom, a number that is confirmed by several other women held in the same location.

They each described how three Islamic State fighters walked in, holding a register. They told the girls to stand. Each one was instructed to state her first, middle and last name, her age, her hometown, whether she was married, and if she had children.

For two months, F was held inside the Galaxy hall. Then one day, they came and began removing young women. Those who refused were dragged out by their hair, she said.

In the parking lot the same fleet of Hajj buses was waiting to take them to their next destination, said F. Along with 24 other girls and young women, the 15-year-old was driven to an army base in Iraq. It was there in the parking lot that she heard the word “sabaya” for the first time.

“They laughed and jeered at us, saying ‘You are our sabaya.’ I didn’t know what that word meant,” she said. Later on, the local Islamic State leader explained it meant slave.

“He told us that Taus Malik” — one of seven angels to whom the Yazidis pray — “is not God. He said that Taus Malik is the devil and that because you worship the devil, you belong to us. We can sell you and use you as we see fit.”

The Islamic State’s sex trade appears to be based solely on enslaving women and girls from the Yazidi minority. As yet, there has been no widespread campaign aimed at enslaving women from other religious minorities, said Samer Muscati, the author of the recent Human Rights Watch report. That assertion was echoed by community leaders, government officials and other human rights workers.

Mr. Barber, of the University of Chicago, said that the focus on Yazidis was likely because they are seen as polytheists, with an oral tradition rather than a written scripture. In the Islamic State’s eyes that puts them on the fringe of despised unbelievers, even more than Christians and Jews, who are considered to have some limited protections under the Quran as “People of the Book.”

In Kojo, one of the southernmost villages on Mount Sinjar and among the farthest away from escape, residents decided to stay, believing they would be treated as the Christians of Mosul had months earlier. On Aug. 15, 2014, the Islamic State ordered the residents to report to a school in the center of town.

When she got there, 40-year-old Aishan Ali Saleh found a community elder negotiating with the Islamic State, asking if they could be allowed to hand over their money and gold in return for safe passage.

The fighters initially agreed and laid out a blanket, where Ms. Saleh placed her heart-shaped pendant and her gold rings, while the men left crumpled bills.

Instead of letting them go, the fighters began shoving the men outside, bound for death.

Sometime later, a fleet of cars arrived and the women, girls and children were driven away.

The Market

Months later, the Islamic State made clear in their online magazine that their campaign of enslaving Yazidi women and girls had been extensively preplanned.

“Prior to the taking of Sinjar, Shariah students in the Islamic State were tasked to research the Yazidis,” said the English-language article, headlined “The Revival of Slavery Before the Hour,” which appeared in the October issue of Dabiq.

The article made clear that for the Yazidis, there was no chance to pay a tax known as jizya to be set free, “unlike the Jews and Christians.”

“After capture, the Yazidi women and children were then divided according to the Shariah amongst the fighters of the Islamic State who participated in the Sinjar operations, after one fifth of the slaves were transferred to the Islamic State’s authority to be divided” as spoils, the article said.

In much the same way as specific Bible passages were used centuries later to support the slave trade in the United States, the Islamic State cites specific verses or stories in the Quran or else in the Sunna, the traditions based on the sayings and deeds of the Prophet Muhammad, to justify their human trafficking, experts say.

Scholars of Islamic theology disagree, however, on the proper interpretation of these verses, and on the divisive question of whether Islam actually sanctions slavery.

Many argue that slavery figures in Islamic scripture in much the same way that it figures in the Bible — as a reflection of the period in antiquity in which the religion was born.

“In the milieu in which the Quran arose, there was a widespread practice of men having sexual relationships with unfree women,” said Kecia Ali, an associate professor of religion at Boston University and the author of a book on slavery in early Islam. “It wasn’t a particular religious institution. It was just how people did things.”

Cole Bunzel, a scholar of Islamic theology at Princeton University, disagrees, pointing to the numerous references to the phrase “Those your right hand possesses” in the Quran, which for centuries has been interpreted to mean female slaves. He also points to the corpus of Islamic jurisprudence, which continues into the modern era and which he says includes detailed rules for the treatment of slaves.

“There is a great deal of scripture that sanctions slavery,” said Mr. Bunzel, the author of a research paper published by the Brookings Institution on the ideology of the Islamic State. “You can argue that it is no longer relevant and has fallen into abeyance. ISIS would argue that these institutions need to be revived, because that is what the Prophet and his companions did.”

The youngest, prettiest women and girls were bought in the first weeks after their capture. Others — especially older, married women — described how they were transported from location to location, spending months in the equivalent of human holding pens, until a prospective buyer bid on them.

Their captors appeared to have a system in place, replete with its own methodology of inventorying the women, as well as their own lexicon. Women and girls were referred to as “Sabaya,” followed by their name. Some were bought by wholesalers, who photographed and gave them numbers, to advertise them to potential buyers.

Osman Hassan Ali, a Yazidi businessman who has successfully smuggled out numerous Yazidi women, said he posed as a buyer in order to be sent the photographs. He shared a dozen images, each one showing a Yazidi woman sitting in a bare room on a couch, facing the camera with a blank, unsmiling expression. On the edge of the photograph is written in Arabic, “Sabaya No. 1,” “Sabaya No. 2,” and so on.

Buildings where the women were collected and held sometimes included a viewing room.

“When they put us in the building, they said we had arrived at the ‘Sabaya Market,’” said one 19-year-old victim, whose first initial is I. “I understood we were now in a slave market.”

She estimated there were at least 500 other unmarried women and girls in the multistory building, with the youngest among them being 11. When the buyers arrived, the girls were taken one by one into a separate room.

“The emirs sat against the wall and called us by name. We had to sit in a chair facing them. You had to look at them, and before you went in, they took away our scarves and anything we could have used to cover ourselves,” she said.

“When it was my turn, they made me stand four times. They made me turn around.”

The captives were also forced to answer intimate questions, including reporting the exact date of their last menstrual cycle. They realized that the fighters were trying to determine whether they were pregnant, in keeping with a Shariah rule stating that a man cannot have intercourse with his slave if she is pregnant.

Property of ISIS

The use of sex slavery by the Islamic State initially surprised even the group’s most ardent supporters, many of whom sparred with journalists online after the first reports of systematic rape.

The Islamic State’s leadership has repeatedly sought to justify the practice to its internal audience.

After the initial article in Dabiq in October, the issue came up in the publication again this year, in an editorial in May that expressed the writer’s hurt and dismay at the fact that some of the group’s own sympathizers had questioned the institution of slavery.

“What really alarmed me was that some of the Islamic State’s supporters started denying the matter as if the soldiers of the Khilafah had committed a mistake or evil,” the author wrote. “I write this while the letters drip of pride,’’ he said. “We have indeed raided and captured the kafirahwomen and drove them like sheep by the edge of the sword.” Kafirah refers to infidels.

In a pamphlet published online in December, the Research and Fatwa Department of the Islamic State detailed best practices, including explaining that slaves belong to the estate of the fighter who bought them and therefore can be willed to another man and disposed of just like any other property after his death.

Recent escapees describe an intricate bureaucracy surrounding their captivity, with their status as a slave registered in a contract. When their owner would sell them to another buyer, a new contract would be drafted, like transferring a property deed. At the same time, slaves can also be set free, and fighters are promised a heavenly reward for doing so.

Though rare, this has created one avenue of escape for victims.

A 25-year-old victim who escaped last month, identified by her first initial, A, described how one day her Libyan master handed her a laminated piece of paper. He explained that he had finished his training as a suicide bomber and was planning to blow himself up, and was therefore setting her free.

Labeled a “Certificate of Emancipation,” the document was signed by the judge of the western province of the Islamic State. The Yazidi woman presented it at security checkpoints as she left Syria to return to Iraq, where she rejoined her family in July.

The Islamic State recently made it clear that sex with Christian and Jewish women captured in battle is also permissible, according to a new 34-page manual issued this summer by the terror group’s Research and Fatwa Department.

Just about the only prohibition is having sex with a pregnant slave, and the manual describes how an owner must wait for a female captive to have her menstruating cycle, in order to “make sure there is nothing in her womb,” before having intercourse with her. Of the 21 women and girls interviewed for this article, among the only ones who had not been raped were the women who were already pregnant at the moment of their capture, as well as those who were past menopause.

Beyond that, there appears to be no bounds to what is sexually permissible. Child rape is explicitly condoned: “It is permissible to have intercourse with the female slave who hasn’t reached puberty, if she is fit for intercourse,” according to a translation by the Middle East Media Research Institute of a pamphlet published on Twitter last December.

One 34-year-old Yazidi woman, who was bought and repeatedly raped by a Saudi fighter in the Syrian city of Shadadi, described how she fared better than the second slave in the household — a 12-year-old girl who was raped for days on end despite heavy bleeding.

“He destroyed her body. She was badly infected. The fighter kept coming and asking me, ‘Why does she smell so bad?’ And I said, she has an infection on the inside, you need to take care of her,” the woman said.

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Unmoved, he ignored the girl’s agony, continuing the ritual of praying before and after raping the child.

“I said to him, ‘She’s just a little girl,’ ” the older woman recalled. “And he answered: ‘No. She’s not a little girl. She’s a slave. And she knows exactly how to have sex.’ ’’

“And having sex with her pleases God,” he said.

Correction: August 13, 2015
An earlier version of this article misstated the location of Matthew Barber when the invasion of Mount Sinjar began in August 2014. He was in Dohuk, near Mount Sinjar, not on the mountain itself.
Nothing like religion to justify evil sickening things :finger:
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

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We created those monsters by removing the stabilizing influence who would never have tolerated this (Saddam). Then the USA left the job half-done and now Turkey is bombing the Kurds instead of ISIS because apparently the ones fighting against Isis are actually the ones who need killing. Meanwhile, most nations in Europe have destroyed their military to the point that even if they wanted to deploy, they couldn't do it because there are no logistic trains large enough to support combat troops left. And those who have such militaries are either unwilling to go back in and finish what they created (USA + UK) or already deployed all over Africa (France).

This pathetic group of batshit insane assholes should never have been allowed to exist in the first place, but political ineptitude (especially on part of the USA) caused this perfect shitstorm to happen.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

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Thanas wrote:We created those monsters by removing the stabilizing influence who would never have tolerated this (Saddam).
I hate this sort of thinking. I loath the implication that the only options were Saddam Hussein (a monster in his own right) or ISIS (with the implicit prejudice of believing Iraqis are incapable of having a functioning country without a tyrant to control them).

I hold the following view: Saddam Hussein was vile. While the US was wrong to fight him based on false pretences, the fact that he is no longer running Iraq is hardly something to lament. The biggest failure was what came after that- not establishing a strong, stable government to take his place.
Then the USA left the job half-done and now Turkey is bombing the Kurds instead of ISIS because apparently the ones fighting against Isis are actually the ones who need killing.
I pretty much agree with this. I don't really know a great deal about Turkey's conflict with the Kurds, but it seems to me that they should be focussing on the fight against ISIS. And if it were up to me, I'd have Turkey removed from NATO for a variety of reasons.
Meanwhile, most nations in Europe have destroyed their military to the point that even if they wanted to deploy, they couldn't do it because there are no logistic trains large enough to support combat troops left. And those who have such militaries are either unwilling to go back in and finish what they created (USA + UK) or already deployed all over Africa (France).
You would think that the local governments combined with the US would be enough to get the job done.
This pathetic group of batshit insane assholes should never have been allowed to exist in the first place, but political ineptitude (especially on part of the USA) caused this perfect shitstorm to happen.
Largely true, although their are plenty of people to blame. The Bush Administration played a huge role, but so did Assad's regime, the Iraqi government, and the ISIS assholes themselves.

I'm not trying to deny American responsibility, just note that their is a lot of blame to go around for this mess.

But the most important question now is what we, as a species, do to deal with this catastrophe so that innocent people are no longer raped, enslaved, tortured, displaced, and killed.

I'd be sincerely interested to hear your thoughts on that. What do you feel we should be doing to oppose ISIS?
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

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The Romulan Republic wrote:
Thanas wrote:We created those monsters by removing the stabilizing influence who would never have tolerated this (Saddam).
I hate this sort of thinking. I loath the implication that the only options were Saddam Hussein (a monster in his own right) or ISIS (with the implicit prejudice of believing Iraqis are incapable of having a functioning country without a tyrant to control them).

I hold the following view: Saddam Hussein was vile. While the US was wrong to fight him based on false pretences, the fact that he is no longer running Iraq is hardly something to lament. The biggest failure was what came after that- not establishing a strong, stable government to take his place.
Yes, it is something to lament. Under Saddam, Iraqi life was somewhat stable. Women were not abducted and sold as sex slaves, nor was there ethnic cleansing on this scale going on. There was a rule of law. Corrupt, dictatorial, vile rule, but still a rule of law. Saddam wasn't some great evil dragon, he was a ruthless, sociopathic dictator - in other words, exactly the people who the USA has no trouble keeping in power elsewhere and who are often the only thing keeping a postcolonial nation stable. If you don't think the life of the Iraqis under Saddam was massively better than it is now, then you are deluding yourself.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Thanas wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Thanas wrote:We created those monsters by removing the stabilizing influence who would never have tolerated this (Saddam).
I hate this sort of thinking. I loath the implication that the only options were Saddam Hussein (a monster in his own right) or ISIS (with the implicit prejudice of believing Iraqis are incapable of having a functioning country without a tyrant to control them).

I hold the following view: Saddam Hussein was vile. While the US was wrong to fight him based on false pretences, the fact that he is no longer running Iraq is hardly something to lament. The biggest failure was what came after that- not establishing a strong, stable government to take his place.
Yes, it is something to lament.
I guess everyone Saddam Hussein killed is an acceptable sacrifice for the greater good to you.
Under Saddam, Iraqi life was somewhat stable.
Maybe if you didn't anger or offend the regime.

The equation of authoritarianism with safety and security is one of the great lies and delusions of human history. Their is no stability in a regime where the state can kill you on a whim and no one will hold it accountable. It is merely a different form of insecurity and terror.
Women were not abducted and sold as sex slaves, nor was there ethnic cleansing on this scale going on. There was a rule of law. Corrupt, dictatorial, vile rule, but still a rule of law.
All very well, but it came at a high price, didn't it?
Saddam wasn't some great evil dragon, he was a ruthless, sociopathic dictator - in other words, exactly the people who the USA has no trouble keeping in power elsewhere and who are often the only thing keeping a postcolonial nation stable.
Do you actually think that the US having supported people like Saddam Hussein elsewhere is some sort of justification?

I very much doubt it. I suspect that if this were a different situation, you would condemn the US for doing so.

But either way, America doing so is irrelevant to my point. I don't support it when the US does it elsewhere, and I don't support it here.

And again, I find the idea that the Iraqis are incapable of having a functioning, civilized country to be prejudiced (and arguably racist).
If you don't think the life of the Iraqis under Saddam was massively better than it is now, then you are deluding yourself.
Better does not equal good.

I am not saying it wasn't better. Just that it wasn't good enough.

Get this through your head mister false dichotomy- I am rejecting the assumption that the only two possible forms of government for Iraq are Saddam Hussein and overrun by ISIS. I am not saying that things weren't better then, and if you suggest that I am again I won't hesitate to call it the lie that it is. I'm saying that both options are horrible and a better one needs to be found.

So what is your solution to Iraq now? Put another Saddam Hussein-style dictator in power because his victims are a small price to pay for order?

Edited to correct an inaccuracy.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

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In the end, I think that anyone who says that their are only two possible outcomes in such a complex situation is either a fool, pushing an agenda, or both.

And I don't really care if Saddam Hussein's rule was better than the situation now because its irrelevant to weather Saddam Hussein being in power was a good thing. Better is not the same as good.

Does that mean the US should have removed him? Not in and of itself. I oppose the 2003 invasion of Iraq. But not because Saddam Hussein's regime was in any way a positive thing. I don't delude myself into believing that just because the Iraq war was an immoral catastrophe. The war was a mistake because it was needless, costly, justified by false pretences, and conducted by incompetent assholes. But if one good thing came from it, its that Saddam Hussein's regime is history.

Edits: To go back to the original topic, I can't really say how to fix the Iraqi government, much less the Syrian nightmare- a big part of the underlying problems. But I feel that their are at least four things the west can do and is obligated to do to respond to such atrocities:

1. Continue bombing ISIS forces to slow or halt their advance, provided their is limited risk of civilian casualties and that we have the permission of local governments.

2. Continue to accept more refugees from said regions of the world. I know Europe is getting flooded right now, so America and Canada should shoulder more of the refugee crisis if possible.

3. Provide whatever aid we can to countries in the region to help them build their economies and infrastructure and to help the people their.

4. Continue to expose ISIS atrocities, their true nature. We need to be doing much better in the propaganda/information side of the war.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

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Thanas wrote:We created those monsters by removing the stabilizing influence who would never have tolerated this (Saddam).
No, we did not. The ability of ISIL to recruit internationally shows that this is not a new monster. Nobody joins an organisation as dedicated to being reprehensible assholes as ISIL is unless they are already sympathetic to that way of thinking.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

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The Romulan Republic wrote:I guess everyone Saddam Hussein killed is an acceptable sacrifice for the greater good to you.

Fuck off with that strawman.
Maybe if you didn't anger or offend the regime.

The equation of authoritarianism with safety and security is one of the great lies and delusions of human history. Their is no stability in a regime where the state can kill you on a whim and no one will hold it accountable. It is merely a different form of insecurity and terror.
Again, if you try to change the fact that life under Saddam was vastly preferable to life under the current Iraq form, you are a Liar and not worth debating.
Women were not abducted and sold as sex slaves, nor was there ethnic cleansing on this scale going on. There was a rule of law. Corrupt, dictatorial, vile rule, but still a rule of law.
All very well, but it came at a high price, didn't it?
A lesser price than what is happening now.
And again, I find the idea that the Iraqis are incapable of having a functioning, civilized country to be prejudiced (and arguably racist).
Another strawman. Keep it up.
Get this through your head mister false dichotomy- I am rejecting the assumption that the only two possible forms of government for Iraq are Saddam Hussein and overrun by ISIS. I am not saying that things weren't better then, and if you suggest that I am again I won't hesitate to call it the lie that it is. I'm saying that both options are horrible and a better one needs to be found.
There is no better option. There never was one the moment the USA decided to not invest the blood and capital needed to create one. You are deluding yourself and your entire argument is wrong from the start if you are holding up the current status against some mythical better option that would never arise without the USA being seriously willing to occupy the place for a generation.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by Guardsman Bass »

I'm not so sanguine about what a Saddam-led Iraq would be like today, considering what happened to its counterpart in Syria in the wake of the Arab Spring. You'd have to assume that "no invasion of Iraq" = "no Arab Spring" to avoid that entirely.

It wouldn't be the same as ISIS, but it would still be a bloody sectarian war with increasing levels of religious fanaticism and outside fighters over time.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

As horrible as this is, I really don't know what can realistically be done to stop it on short notice. Part of me is screaming "lets get in there and kill these fuckers post-haste" but the more rational part of me says that is not a viable solution.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by Patroklos »

Thanas wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Thanas wrote:We created those monsters by removing the stabilizing influence who would never have tolerated this (Saddam).
I hate this sort of thinking. I loath the implication that the only options were Saddam Hussein (a monster in his own right) or ISIS (with the implicit prejudice of believing Iraqis are incapable of having a functioning country without a tyrant to control them).

I hold the following view: Saddam Hussein was vile. While the US was wrong to fight him based on false pretences, the fact that he is no longer running Iraq is hardly something to lament. The biggest failure was what came after that- not establishing a strong, stable government to take his place.
Yes, it is something to lament. Under Saddam, Iraqi life was somewhat stable. Women were not abducted and sold as sex slaves, nor was there ethnic cleansing on this scale going on. There was a rule of law. Corrupt, dictatorial, vile rule, but still a rule of law. Saddam wasn't some great evil dragon, he was a ruthless, sociopathic dictator - in other words, exactly the people who the USA has no trouble keeping in power elsewhere and who are often the only thing keeping a postcolonial nation stable. If you don't think the life of the Iraqis under Saddam was massively better than it is now, then you are deluding yourself.
SUNNI women were not abjucted, sold into the sex trade, etc. Well, sometimes they weren't.

ISIS is what it is because of the collapse of Syria, and Syria collapsed instead of having a brief civil war because of the timidness of the rest of the world refusing to let one side win of lose creating a vacuum for new entrants to the power struggle.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by K. A. Pital »

I must say that the US played an active role in the demise of Nasserist, Baathist regimes in the Middle East.

I.e. "The Arab Spring". Therefore, the fallacy of claiming it would have happened anyway... Maybe it would. Maybe not. Or maybe sectarian violence would befall Saudi Arabia instead, they well deserve it!
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by Simon_Jester »

The abuses and evil that we see here flow out of a particular stripe of religious fundamentalism, which is, yes, in part a reaction to imperialism- originally the imperialism of the Ottomans at least in part.

This particular expression of them is an opportunistic infection, and a new one, even if Patient Zero for the infection existed hundreds of years ago. Which might have been avoided in several ways.

Had the US been more tolerant of certain vicious dictators in the post-2000 era... we would not now be seeing this particular infection.

Had the US been less tolerant of certain vicious dictators in the same era... we might well not now be seeing this particular infection.

In some cases, it's the same dictator on both sides of that equation.

Had some combination of nations other than the US decided that it, too, had the power and mandate to police the world and prevent evil from overtaking the Middle East... we might well not now be seeing this particular infection. But that did not happen, for a variety of reasons.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by Honorius »

Thanas wrote:We created those monsters by removing the stabilizing influence who would never have tolerated this (Saddam).
Saddam in the aftermath of the 1991 Gulf War implemented a faith campaign. Alcohol was banned, smokers lashed, hands of thieves cut off, adulterers beheaded, etc. The Feyedeen Saddam were entrusted with carrying this out. Saying Saddam was secular is a big stretch post 1991. When Zarqawi arrived, he had ready audiences waiting for him.

A summary by wikipedia, yes I know, but it is just a summary and a base to find further in depth documentation.

Ironically, Uday (I feed people to my dogs) Hussein was totally against it and predicted the most likely result.
Then the USA left the job half-done and now Turkey is bombing the Kurds instead of ISIS because apparently the ones fighting against Isis are actually the ones who need killing.
Correction, Turkey is bombing the PKK, of which PYD is a paper thin front for, which has repeatably violated the ceasefire of 2013 by attacking police, soldiers, hoarding arms, attacking construction crews trying to improve the infrastructure of Turkish Kurdistan by providing jobs, electricity, and public services.

Erdogan was more than lenient, he truly tried to give the PKK a chance, an organization that sex traffics women, kidnaps and forcibly conscripts children, and trains them under conditions that aren't healthy. And if you don't believe Kurdwatch, here isHRW's report.

Only difference between PKK and IS, is that IS is straight up honest about what they are about and don't hide it. Neither organization has any place in this world.

Also where the fuck does the PKK and West get the notion Turkey helps IS when it was the first to declare it a terrorist organization, the first to bomb it in Iraq when Irbil was threatened, has blocked thousands from entering it to join up with IS, treated thousands of wound YPG members, let PKK fighters from Turkey cross to help, let FSA cross to help, let KDP Peshmerga cross to help and handed them heavy artillery and let them fire it from Turkish soil at IS positions around Kobani, and let humanitarian aid through.

Seriously fuck off accusing Turkey of supporting IS. It doesn't, nor will it allow PKK to use Syria as a sanctuary to attack Turkish Citizens. Since this war has began, Turkey has taken in ~2 million refugees and spent $5+ billion on feeding and caring for them while other nations treat them like shit, try to resolve the problems with PKK peacefully despite everything, and began building infrastructure in Kurdish Regions to bring jobs there. In return PKK broke every ceasefire, its HDP ally refused to form a coalition leaving Turkey without a Government and egged PKK on, and the world accuses Erdogan of everything but the Kitchen Sink.

Maybe if the West actually did what Erdogan suggested, IE take out Assad, a man who gassed children on live television in his own capital, and whose cousin raped and sodomized school kids, over a fucking joke at Assad's expense, and allowed to get away with it. IS is the symptom, Assad is the cause and must go first before we focus on IS and the PKK Terrorists.
Meanwhile, most nations in Europe have destroyed their military to the point that even if they wanted to deploy, they couldn't do it because there are no logistic trains large enough to support combat troops left. And those who have such militaries are either unwilling to go back in and finish what they created (USA + UK) or already deployed all over Africa (France).
Here is a silly thought, why not shoestring it? If IS and all the other rebel groups can run their campaigns off of battle spoils, local manufacturing, and black market dealing, the NATO Forces can do so too. Fuck, you don't need much in heavy tanks, the best Tank IS has is the T-72AV of which they have 3. Just buy Ford F-350s, mount heavy weapons on them, a few AFVs here and there and accept the losses. Hell Erdogan will jump behind this as it means he isn't left holding the bag.

Otherwise STFU, nothing irritates Syrians more when Western People say we have to do something, but we don't want our troops to get shot protecting stone ruins, when Assad is blowing up their cities which they live in and killing their children.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Honorius wrote:Correction, Turkey is bombing the PKK, of which PYD is a paper thin front for, which has repeatably violated the ceasefire of 2013 by attacking police, soldiers, hoarding arms, attacking construction crews trying to improve the infrastructure of Turkish Kurdistan by providing jobs, electricity, and public services.

Erdogan was more than lenient, he truly tried to give the PKK a chance, an organization that sex traffics women, kidnaps and forcibly conscripts children, and trains them under conditions that aren't healthy. And if you don't believe Kurdwatch, here isHRW's report.

Only difference between PKK and IS, is that IS is straight up honest about what they are about and don't hide it. Neither organization has any place in this world.

Also where the fuck does the PKK and West get the notion Turkey helps IS when it was the first to declare it a terrorist organization, the first to bomb it in Iraq when Irbil was threatened, has blocked thousands from entering it to join up with IS, treated thousands of wound YPG members, let PKK fighters from Turkey cross to help, let FSA cross to help, let KDP Peshmerga cross to help and handed them heavy artillery and let them fire it from Turkish soil at IS positions around Kobani, and let humanitarian aid through.

Seriously fuck off accusing Turkey of supporting IS. It doesn't, nor will it allow PKK to use Syria as a sanctuary to attack Turkish Citizens. Since this war has began, Turkey has taken in ~2 million refugees and spent $5+ billion on feeding and caring for them while other nations treat them like shit, try to resolve the problems with PKK peacefully despite everything, and began building infrastructure in Kurdish Regions to bring jobs there. In return PKK broke every ceasefire, its HDP ally refused to form a coalition leaving Turkey without a Government and egged PKK on, and the world accuses Erdogan of everything but the Kitchen Sink.
THis is total drivel. Turkey openly allowed IS and Syrian rebels to cross the border to get weapons and funding up until IS started going around and cutting off heads. There is also no doubt that on a level, Turkey has been working with anyone who wants to unseat Assad. You are indulging in selective memory.

Finally, the PKK is the ultimate result of the decades of oppression of Kurdish people. When people are confronted with desperate ends, they respond desperately. The failure to acknowledge decades of Turkish incompetence, stretching from the Armenian genocide to the present day is the direct result of that. And quite frankly, Erdogan hasn't shown enough boldness to confront these issues to warrant any kind of slack.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by Vendetta »

K. A. Pital wrote:I must say that the US played an active role in the demise of Nasserist, Baathist regimes in the Middle East.

I.e. "The Arab Spring". Therefore, the fallacy of claiming it would have happened anyway... Maybe it would. Maybe not. Or maybe sectarian violence would befall Saudi Arabia instead, they well deserve it!
Saudi Arabia has sufficient money to export sectarian violence to other local regimes.

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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by Honorius »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Honorius wrote:Correction, Turkey is bombing the PKK, of which PYD is a paper thin front for, which has repeatably violated the ceasefire of 2013 by attacking police, soldiers, hoarding arms, attacking construction crews trying to improve the infrastructure of Turkish Kurdistan by providing jobs, electricity, and public services.

Erdogan was more than lenient, he truly tried to give the PKK a chance, an organization that sex traffics women, kidnaps and forcibly conscripts children, and trains them under conditions that aren't healthy. And if you don't believe Kurdwatch, here isHRW's report.

Only difference between PKK and IS, is that IS is straight up honest about what they are about and don't hide it. Neither organization has any place in this world.

Also where the fuck does the PKK and West get the notion Turkey helps IS when it was the first to declare it a terrorist organization, the first to bomb it in Iraq when Irbil was threatened, has blocked thousands from entering it to join up with IS, treated thousands of wound YPG members, let PKK fighters from Turkey cross to help, let FSA cross to help, let KDP Peshmerga cross to help and handed them heavy artillery and let them fire it from Turkish soil at IS positions around Kobani, and let humanitarian aid through.

Seriously fuck off accusing Turkey of supporting IS. It doesn't, nor will it allow PKK to use Syria as a sanctuary to attack Turkish Citizens. Since this war has began, Turkey has taken in ~2 million refugees and spent $5+ billion on feeding and caring for them while other nations treat them like shit, try to resolve the problems with PKK peacefully despite everything, and began building infrastructure in Kurdish Regions to bring jobs there. In return PKK broke every ceasefire, its HDP ally refused to form a coalition leaving Turkey without a Government and egged PKK on, and the world accuses Erdogan of everything but the Kitchen Sink.
THis is total drivel. Turkey openly allowed IS and Syrian rebels to cross the border to get weapons and funding up until IS started going around and cutting off heads. There is also no doubt that on a level, Turkey has been working with anyone who wants to unseat Assad. You are indulging in selective memory.

Finally, the PKK is the ultimate result of the decades of oppression of Kurdish people. When people are confronted with desperate ends, they respond desperately. The failure to acknowledge decades of Turkish incompetence, stretching from the Armenian genocide to the present day is the direct result of that. And quite frankly, Erdogan hasn't shown enough boldness to confront these issues to warrant any kind of slack.
Turkey supports Jaysh al-Islam led by Zahran Alloush and the larger Islamic Front as does Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and UAE. That is where the weapons are going and those are the people Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and UAE want to control the Safe Zone Turkey is proposing which would permanently remove IS's main manufacturing sites on the Manbij Plain from their control and add them to the Rebel's control. That said, Turkey has a long border which it can't police effectively due to PKK attacks and if the US can't police its borders with far greater resources, then it is nonsense to expect the same of Turkey. In addition, Syria is a humanitarian disaster zone with millions of internally displaced people and ruined infrastructure, thus why Turkey provides humanitarian aid to all factions, including Assad's as without it the suffering and disease rates would be far higher and threaten to spill over even more into Turkey. Don't like it, then push your nation to remove Assad first, then focus on IS. IS is the symptom, Assad is the disease and once he is gone, you can expect Syrian members of IS to quit or defect to the Rebel Factions. Then IS will be easy enough to clear. Don't want to remove Assad, then shut the fuck up about IS, nothing pisses Syrians off more than to hear the West freak out over IS when Assad's crimes far outstrip IS's crimes, except the West bombs IS and not Assad who does the same things but on a far grander scale yet has not been bombed once. Like Romulan Republic, I reject the fucking notion we need to support dictators or we get radical whackjobs, how about we support democracy by respecting elections and not encouraging military coups.

As for PKK. Since coming to power, the AKP has allowed Kurds to speak their own language, jailed and punished the Military Leaders responsible for the worst excesses, put the military back in the barracks where it belongs and threw in jail officers that wouldn't respect the polls, let Kurdish Political Parties form, poured money into infrastructure projects in Kurdish Regions, negotiated a ceasefire with PKK which it repeatably violated and cost Erdogan a lot of political capital, tried to form a Government with HDP only for it to reject it out of hand, and all this cost Erdogan enormous political capital and would not have been possible under the military or CHP. Fuck while running for President in April of 2014, Erdogan acknowledged the Armenian Genocide in two dialects of Armenian Language which could have cost him the election. Also in 2011, Erdogan returned confiscated property taken from the Jews and Christians in the 30s. None of this would have been possible under the Nationalists and Military Juntas. Erdogan might not be the second coming, but compared to the Military Juntas and Nationalist Fucktards, Erdogan is a fucking saint.

Seriously fuck off on Erdogan, he is trying to fix those problems while everyone stabs him in the fucking back. Since Syria went to shit and the West decided that its okay for Assad to rape, bomb, shoot, and gas children on live television but not okay for IS to behead an American on live TV, Erdogan was the only one to provide real help to the rebels in overthrowing that fucker and taking in people fleeing the combat. Long before IS was a household word in the West, Erdogan was bombing them.

You want IS gone, take out Assad, then go after IS, then stay the fuck out of Syrian's way as they rebuild. So long as Assad exists, IS will exist.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by K. A. Pital »

Honorius wrote:IS is the symptom, Assad is the disease and once he is gone, you can expect Syrian members of IS to quit or defect to the Rebel Factions.
Except the exact opposite has happened: the IS killed or incorporated other rebel factions. Except the Kurds, but you hate then because they're dirty terrorirsts who use child soldiers. The IS will not disappear if Assad disappears (indeed, the IS has centered on massacring and enslaving everyone around them who's not a hardcore Sunni Wahhabite, and that goal is not going away)
Honorius wrote:Erdogan might not be the second coming, but compared to the Military Juntas and Nationalist Fucktards, Erdogan is a fucking saint.
Erdogan can be progress compared to a military junta, but Islamism is not a viable replacement for secular rule. I think Iran is a prime example of the fact. Sure, there is progress, perhaps, if we consider the Shah-era Iran, but... Islamism sucks balls.
Honorius wrote:Turkey supports Jaysh al-Islam led by Zahran Alloush and the larger Islamic Front as does Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and UAE. That is where the weapons are going and those are the people Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and UAE want to control the Safe Zone Turkey is proposing which would permanently remove IS's main manufacturing sites on the Manbij Plain from their control and add them to the Rebel's control.
Ankara's support for ISIS and other jihadist groups became undeniable in January 2014 when Turkish prosecutors sent a team to search three trucks in the southern province of Adana. The Syria-bound trucks carried a cargo of more than fifty missiles and nearly forty crates loaded with ammunition. An ISIS jihadist later indicated that the Turkish government had delivered stocks of weapons and military hardware to the group's fighters in Syria.
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/views/n ... hway-.html
But others, such as Jon Alterman, director of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, believe that ISIS’ ability to run riot along the Turkish border may not have been so uncontrollable for Turkey. Alterman said in June that some regional governments are taking the view that “it’s not that we’re really supporting them, we’re just turning the other way while other people support them… we’re not as aggressive going after financing as we need to be.” He went on to advocate that the U.S. should diplomatically push back against the idea that “a little bit of terrorism helps their strategic interests.”
Such an extremism-friendly policy is likely to have factored into Turkey’s calculations, given its dedication to the removal of Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad. In this scenario ISIS could be seen less as an uncontainable force, but as potential lever to loosen the regime’s grip on Syria that, perhaps, could always be reined in later once Damascus falls.
"When Damascus falls" indeed. You are doing nothing but spouting the official Turkey line here. As for Qatar and Saudi Arabia, I think, given that the feudal petro-state regime of the sheiks is so opaque very few people have a clue as to what's going on there, the results are what's important. Results are; Saudi Arabia and Qatar were behind the initial funding of Jihad groups, behind hardcore islamists who then morphed into an entity that is seemingly out of control. "Seemingly" is because cutting down the funding of islamists has not happened; and we don't know what would happen if Turkey stopped buying and shipping on smuggled ISIS oil.

And I'm not really impressed by the fact that some support Islamic Front and Ahrar ash-Sham instead of the current Islamic State. What is the difference? Ahrar ash-Sham is a hardcore islamist army. It's another IS in the making. If you defeat IS #1 using IS #2, you'll get IS in the end. They want to kill "idol-worshippers" and massacre infidels just as much. It was the idiots who support an organization as hideous as Islamic Front as "anything goes in the war against Assad!" that paved the way for ISIS.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by Purple »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:THis is total drivel. Turkey openly allowed IS and Syrian rebels to cross the border to get weapons and funding up until IS started going around and cutting off heads.
Excuse me meddling. But how is this a negative thing? If you support someone, he turns out to be evil so you stop supporting him is that not a "good" act? And would an act of "bad" not be to keep supporting them no matter what?
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by K. A. Pital »

The problem is, indeed, not that they stopped supporting them now; but the fact that they haven't fully stopped it and they have turned a blind eye for too long. Besides, it is not as if the Islamic Front groups have not laid out the ideology behind their war plain: to destroy secular state and establish an Islamic State with Sharia law.

That's very clear. It's like reading Mein Kampf, and then supporting Hitler and only stopping this support when Hitler is already at the Auschwitz and Einsatzgruppen stage killing many millions of subhumans in a timeframe of just a few years.

Unlike many other groups, the islamists do lay out their ideology very clearly. I mean, even the Nazis usually try to conceal that they're going to slaughter lower races by words like "resettlement", but Islamists?

They openly say they will kill the infidels and reform the entire society to conform to a Wahhabist Sharia law system.

It takes a "genius" to still be in the dark about their end goals.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by Patroklos »

Honorius wrote: Turkey supports Jaysh al-Islam led by Zahran Alloush and the larger Islamic Front as does Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and UAE. That is where the weapons are going and those are the people Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and UAE want to control the Safe Zone Turkey is proposing which would permanently remove IS's main manufacturing sites on the Manbij Plain from their control and add them to the Rebel's control. That said, Turkey has a long border which it can't police effectively due to PKK attacks and if the US can't police its borders with far greater resources, then it is nonsense to expect the same of Turkey. In addition, Syria is a humanitarian disaster zone with millions of internally displaced people and ruined infrastructure, thus why Turkey provides humanitarian aid to all factions, including Assad's as without it the suffering and disease rates would be far higher and threaten to spill over even more into Turkey. Don't like it, then push your nation to remove Assad first, then focus on IS. IS is the symptom, Assad is the disease and once he is gone, you can expect Syrian members of IS to quit or defect to the Rebel Factions. Then IS will be easy enough to clear. Don't want to remove Assad, then shut the fuck up about IS, nothing pisses Syrians off more than to hear the West freak out over IS when Assad's crimes far outstrip IS's crimes, except the West bombs IS and not Assad who does the same things but on a far grander scale yet has not been bombed once. Like Romulan Republic, I reject the fucking notion we need to support dictators or we get radical whackjobs, how about we support democracy by respecting elections and not encouraging military coups.
The choices now, both inside and outside Syria, are either Assad or IS/some mix of them and other Islamists just as bad. The chance to have someone other than them winning was squandered in the first year of the conflict and it won't be returning short of a major western ground invasion. The "moderate" rebels are kept alive as a token affair by a trickle of guilt driven inadequate aid meant for PR purposes (the same goes for airstrikes in Syria, which are pathetically trivial in scale from a military standpoint). They are not players. It would have been better to have just let Assad roll the moderates we never intended to truly help in the first place. He is a fucker no doubt, but his quick victory would not have produced 250K+ and counting war deaths, five million plus refugees, an utterly destroyed country and ISIS and a host of other groups would not exists or would still be back woods nobodies. Those types of casualties might, and I stress MIGHT, be worth it if a free and democratic Syria with an open future was a plausible end result but its not and wasn't the second everyone gave the moderates a cold shoulder. This war needs to end ASAP, and I hope its with Assad on top and not ISIS.

So take our pick. ISIS or Assad? Well, we can go the failed state route too. Oh the joys of timidity!
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by Thanas »

Honorius wrote:Saddam in the aftermath of the 1991 Gulf War implemented a faith campaign. Alcohol was banned, smokers lashed, hands of thieves cut off, adulterers beheaded, etc. The Feyedeen Saddam were entrusted with carrying this out. Saying Saddam was secular is a big stretch post 1991. When Zarqawi arrived, he had ready audiences waiting for him.
And despite that "faith campaign" Women were still allowed to work, were not forced to wear hijabs etc. Whatever the extent may have been - and I think it was way less than the propaganda claims - it clearly was not practiced.
Correction, Turkey is bombing the PKK, of which PYD is a paper thin front for, which has repeatably violated the ceasefire of 2013 by attacking police, soldiers, hoarding arms, attacking construction crews trying to improve the infrastructure of Turkish Kurdistan by providing jobs, electricity, and public services.
You're not Turkish, are you?
Only difference between PKK and IS, is that IS is straight up honest about what they are about and don't hide it. Neither organization has any place in this world.
Are you fucking nuts? The above sentence alone shows you having no idea of the issues involved and little knowledge of the PKK and ISIS to boot.
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Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by Channel72 »

Thanas wrote:Yes, it is something to lament. Under Saddam, Iraqi life was somewhat stable. Women were not abducted and sold as sex slaves, nor was there ethnic cleansing on this scale going on. There was a rule of law. Corrupt, dictatorial, vile rule, but still a rule of law. Saddam wasn't some great evil dragon, he was a ruthless, sociopathic dictator - in other words, exactly the people who the USA has no trouble keeping in power elsewhere and who are often the only thing keeping a postcolonial nation stable. If you don't think the life of the Iraqis under Saddam was massively better than it is now, then you are deluding yourself.
Yes. Saddam Hussein may as well be FDR compared to what's happening now. He created a stable, secular government, with religious tolerance, and ridiculously high education, high literacy rate, and a modern infrastructure. Many women didn't wear burqas - average Iraqis could become doctors, engineers, dentists, archeologists, etc - education and university was free and very high quality, healthcare was free and very high quality, public services were first class, and there was great opportunity for most people, even during the war with Iran.

We all know the atrocities Saddam Hussein committed. We know he used chemical weapons on the Kurds, devastated the marshes in Basra and suppressed Shia uprisings violently. We know he tortured, murdered and imprisoned anyone critical of his regime, and became increasingly erratic as time went on. That is still nothing compared to this, especially when weighed against the life he created for most Iraqi citizens, at least before the sanctions.

It is really sad that we are at the point where defending Saddam Hussein has become a reasonable position. Really, I am so fucking upset with how Obama has handled ISIS, and how the Bush administration before that handled the Iraq occupation in general, I don't have anything further to say that wouldn't quickly devolve into incoherent ranting.
TheHammer
Jedi Master
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Joined: 2011-02-15 04:16pm

Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by TheHammer »

Channel72 wrote: It is really sad that we are at the point where defending Saddam Hussein has become a reasonable position. Really, I am so fucking upset with how Obama has handled ISIS, and how the Bush administration before that handled the Iraq occupation in general, I don't have anything further to say that wouldn't quickly devolve into incoherent ranting.
What do you think Obama should do?
Adam Reynolds
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2354
Joined: 2004-03-27 04:51am

Re: ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Post by Adam Reynolds »

TheHammer wrote:
Channel72 wrote: It is really sad that we are at the point where defending Saddam Hussein has become a reasonable position. Really, I am so fucking upset with how Obama has handled ISIS, and how the Bush administration before that handled the Iraq occupation in general, I don't have anything further to say that wouldn't quickly devolve into incoherent ranting.
What do you think Obama should do?
It is too late now. It's what he should have done earlier. And that was to have a coherent policy on which side to support in Syria. By giving halfhearted support to the rebels initially, after Assad gassed his people, the Obama administration didn't much help things. And when they followed that up with no military action, even symbolically, it became even worse. Now there is hardly anyone left to support.

While it wasn't as bad as Bush invading Iraq, this was much the same problem that Clinton had in the 1990s. Because he was unwilling to fully commit to military actions, he was in the position that American force was somewhat impotent and useless, regardless of its theoretical strength. Though one could argue that in both cases their reluctance was thanks to the Bush who held the position before them.
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