BREAKING: Airbus A320 crashes in Alps

[The Romulan Republic]

Put a camera in the cockpit. Seems pretty simple to me.

Well, I guess they'd have to have people review the footage.

They could put some alarm on the door that records every time someone goes through it perhaps.

[salm]

Put a camera in the cockpit. Seems pretty simple to me.

Well, I guess they'd have to have people review the footage.

They could put some alarm on the door that records every time someone goes through it perhaps.

Perhaps. How do the Americans do it?

[Broomstick]

In Eagleland, if one pilot has to piss then a flight attendant enters the cockpit and remains there until the other pilot returns, to prevent lockouts due to things like having a brainfart regarding an access code and such. Also, if the flying pilot chooses that moment to have a stroke there will be someone in the cockpit to yell HELP!, let the other pilot in, etc.

In other words, they use one of the other members of the flight crew that is already there and paid for.

[Flagg]

What about further screwing pilots (as much as I hate to, but the needs of the many and all that) and allowing the FAA to essentially bypass HIPAA laws and rather than a doctor giving the pilot a fucking note like they would an 8 year old saying they are too sick to go to school/ work they simply "red flag" them in the computer or something so the FAA knows immediately that this pilot is medically (due to physical infirmity or mental illness no longer being under control) unfit to fly?

I mean the obvious downside is that it could (and likely would in many cases) lead the pilots to not telling their doctor or psychiatrist about a physical or psychological ailment they are currently suffering from in order to avoid being grounded and I honestly have no suggestions for fixing that likely outcome, unfortunately.

[LaCroix]

I mean the obvious downside is that it could (and likely would in many cases) lead the pilots to not telling their doctor or psychiatrist about a physical or psychological ailment they are currently suffering from in order to avoid being grounded and I honestly have no suggestions for fixing that likely outcome, unfortunately.

That's exactly what the medical and flight security experts said today in the news. According to them, it would be even worse than the current semi* self-reporing, because now pilots would visit doctors less than they do now, just out of fear that the doctor is overzealous and reports things that are neglible.

*If there is a medical leave written, it will show up in Social Security and in the employer's files, to an extent, as it is sent through their various systems that exchange data.

[salm]

In Eagleland, if one pilot has to piss then a flight attendant enters the cockpit and remains there until the other pilot returns, to prevent lockouts due to things like having a brainfart regarding an access code and such. Also, if the flying pilot chooses that moment to have a stroke there will be someone in the cockpit to yell HELP!, let the other pilot in, etc.

In other words, they use one of the other members of the flight crew that is already there and paid for.

Oh, the availability of a checking person wouldn´t be the problem. But I know how people are, and I´m 100% sure that a rule like this will be routinely ignored if unchecked because people trust their team mates and sending somebody into the cockpit will be an inconvenience (even if only a small one) to other crew members on a lot of occasions.
It´s like seat belts, speed limits or protection gloves in laboratories. They´re all reasonable safety measures but they are also routinely ignored because they are an inconvenience.

[Broomstick]

What about further screwing pilots (as much as I hate to, but the needs of the many and all that) and allowing the FAA to essentially bypass HIPAA laws and rather than a doctor giving the pilot a fucking note like they would an 8 year old saying they are too sick to go to school/ work they simply "red flag" them in the computer or something so the FAA knows immediately that this pilot is medically (due to physical infirmity or mental illness no longer being under control) unfit to fly?

As I already mentioned, the day I went in for my very first FAA pilot medical I signed a release stating that the FAA had the authority to look at any and all medical records of mine if they felt a need to do so. That release had no expiration date. Likewise, they can look at my auto driving record - did you know a pilot could be grounded for irresponsible use of a car? Mind you, I'm just a pissant private pilot, the guys flying the airlines are under much more scrutiny. At least in this country.

Second - there is the problem that your average doctor hasn't a fucking clue what does and doesn't make someone safe in the cockpit. Something as stupidly common as pseudoephedrine grounds a pilot for 24-48 hours - did you know that? The only MD's I've ever met who knew that were aviation docs. Why? Aside from the tendency to raise blood pressure, in about 20% of the population it can induce vertigo at altitude. Including yours truly - thank Og I was a passenger when I discovered that. Trust me, that is NOT something you wish to experience as a passenger, much less a pilot. It has been linked to several fatal helicopter crashes.

Here's another one: certirizine, a.k.a. Zyrtec. One dose grounds a pilot for at least 72 hours. Why? Because even though it doesn't make you drowsy it DOES slow down your reaction time. Not enough to be an issue driving a car, but enough to be a problem if you're flying an airplane. Again, I guarantee your average MD has no fucking clue that that is the case. Because I suffer from allergies the FAA told me explicitly that I either take Zyrtec or fly but not both. Fortunately, they do have permitted allergy medications and in fact they encouraged me to take them prior to flight to minimize the chances of experiencing any symptoms.

So, first you have the big problem that your proposed system relies on doctors who are not knowledgeable about the medical aspects of aviation to make these decisions. Look, those are too dirt-common OTC medications that can seriously screw with a pilot, just imagine all the other medications, both OTC and prescription, out there. All the medical conditions that may or may not be a problem. All the mental issues that may or may not be a problem.

So... what, you'll force pilots to go to an aviation doc for everything? Well, that's going to suck if they need a specialist service and the aviation doc doesn't have much knowledge of that area of aviation. I mean, what would an aviation doc necessarily know about being a OB/GYN for a pregnant pilot as an example? (Pregnancy does not automatically ground a pilot, and companies like UPS generally allow pregnant pilots to continue flying so long as they are not suffering complications and their belly doesn't get in the way of the controls. Yes, there have been cargo flights flown by women 8 months pregnant.)

Here's the other thing: pilots don't get checked by a doc daily. The entire system relies on pilots waking up in the morning and self-evaluating. Do I feel good enough to fly, yes/no? Given that even at my level you have to be pretty fucking motivated to be a pilot, if a professional pilot says "I don't feel up to it today" that should be respected. They aren't going to say that unless they really feel like shit. And they should be able to say that without fearing they'll lose their jobs and careers. All too often, though a sick pilot is treated is a malingerer or subjected to pressure to fly away, and that has unfortunately been true since the 1910's. Apparently, we haven't learned that lesson over the past century.

I mean the obvious downside is that it could (and likely would in many cases) lead the pilots to not telling their doctor or psychiatrist about a physical or psychological ailment they are currently suffering from in order to avoid being grounded and I honestly have no suggestions for fixing that likely outcome, unfortunately.

Yeah, as I said, that HAD been the case for the better part of a century. Pilots WILL hide their problems if revealing means summary execution firing. That's why the FAA and some other authorities have moved towards allowing treatment and offering some protection. Amazingly, people are more willing to say they have a problem if they can get help rather than punishment. You know what? The FAA also has a similar program to allow reporting of unsafe conditions/violations that offer protection to the reporting party and you know what the result is? Better reporting and follow-up, followed by a reduction of unsafe events like runway incursions. (Yeah, funny that - pilots self-reporting runway goofs started turning up a common denominator of deteriorated runway markings. Some cans of paint later and suddenly runway incursions dropped by something like a 1/3. Sometimes when you take the fear out of a situation a solution turns out to be not so expensive and complicated as once thought.)

We also need to realize that aviation can not be made perfectly safe. It is the very safest form of transportation humanity has come up with, but it's not and never will be perfectly safe. I question if we should upend a system working so well because of one outlier.

[Broomstick]

In Eagleland, if one pilot has to piss then a flight attendant enters the cockpit and remains there until the other pilot returns, to prevent lockouts due to things like having a brainfart regarding an access code and such. Also, if the flying pilot chooses that moment to have a stroke there will be someone in the cockpit to yell HELP!, let the other pilot in, etc.

In other words, they use one of the other members of the flight crew that is already there and paid for.

Oh, the availability of a checking person wouldn´t be the problem. But I know how people are, and I´m 100% sure that a rule like this will be routinely ignored if unchecked because people trust their team mates and sending somebody into the cockpit will be an inconvenience (even if only a small one) to other crew members on a lot of occasions.
It´s like seat belts, speed limits or protection gloves in laboratories. They´re all reasonable safety measures but they are also routinely ignored because they are an inconvenience.

Aviation personnel are, as a general rule, pretty compliant. There's a saying that the "regulations are written in blood" and it's not far off the mark. Most of the safety rules were put into place because someone died, and they know that, and the usually know the incidents that resulted in the rules.

Tell me, when was the last time you saw a member of the flight crew NOT buckle up when they took their seats for take off? When was the last time a flight crew skipped the safety briefing?

I'm not saying it never happens, just that it is not going to be routinely ignored. There's a shitload of stuff air crews do that might feel inconvenient but they do them anyway.

[Sky Captain]

I think one of the primary reasons that there are 2 pilots is because medical checks aren't perfect and it is likely that a pilot who should not be flying may be in cockpit because he hid from doctors some medical condition, uses some medicine that may affect piloting abilities or something else. Having 2 people at the same time suffer something that prevents them to do emergency landing is very unlikely even if both aren't in perfect health.

[Broomstick]

Oh, please, let's not start a rumor that most pilots are hiding something or deliberately screwing with the rules. Most of the sudden medical events that lead to emergencies are not hidden but rather unknown/undetected. They're actually pretty rare.

But yes, there's two pilots in an airliner in case one becomes incapacitated.

[Thanas]

Update: They have found the FDR. No word yet on its condition.

[Broomstick]

I expect "battered" to be an applicable adjective.

I have also heard it reported that his recent internet searches include medical treatments and cockpit door security.

I'm wondering if he planned to kill himself for some time, but was waiting for the right opportunity, that is, to be alone in the cockpit. If that is the case then if it had not been this flight it would have been some flight.

I am really not feeling very charitable towards Mr. Lubitz. An impulsive murder-suicide is bad enough, a premeditated one? That's beyond just depression.

The downside? This could well make it more difficult for those with medical/mental issues that are entirely possible to treat successfully. Nice going asshole, making those with mental illness even more stigmatized than they have been in the past. This guy's actions just keep causing pain.

[CaptHawkeye]

The joke to me is now after 14 years of post 9/11 "cockpit fortress" thinking the attitude will probably shift back to "cockpit accessible?!" in airline security. If only the decision making process in airline management wasn't predicated on milking every cent out of overloaded airframes flying on the absolute minimum crew as much as possible. Someone suggested bringing back Flight Engineers to me, which I'm not so sure about. Just having a reserve crew member available even if to just have him say "hey did you set the autopilot rate of descent to zero?" was an advantage back in the day though.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Your link requires a person to sign up before viewing. That is very annoying.

Um, well, it's working fine for me, and I certainly don't have any sort of membership with them. Hell, to my knowledge this article is the first time I've ever been on their website.

[Batman]

It doesn't. It 'asks' you to sign up when you access the link but you can absolutely hit ' No thanks' and still read the article.

[Thanas]

Update: More information has come out now, including that the pilot had contacted dozens of doctors while trying to find out what was wrong with him. He obviously was in a very bad place. Doesn't excuse anything as plenty of people manage to deal with it, but it seems as if he was pretty much not himself.