Euro Elections!

[Thanas]

Germany and France have voted in a couple Ultra Right MEP's

Ultra-right?

They voted in Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands. Similarity to Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei isn't a coincidence, it was intended. You know, the guys who booed the moment of silence at 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Nazi Auschwitz extermination camp.

They got 1 seat and 1 percent of the votes, which is a huge drop in their support and just confirms they are utterly irrelevant already.

[Teebs]

The media frenzy's mostly because this is the first time in something like 150 years that a national-level election has been won by a party other than the Tories, Labour or the Liberal(-Democrat)s.

That said, based on historical president such as the SDP in 1983 and the Liberal Democrats in 2010, UKIP could well gain a decent-sized share of the vote in next year's general election, but will likely end up with few if any seats due to their vote being spread out too much to count for anything. I suppose you could also compare them to the Referendum Party, who got a lot of buzz prior to the 1997 election, but ultimately made little impact beyond helping unseat a few more Tories.

I would be surprised if they get a single seat. It's worth remembering they came second at the last set of European elections and got absolutely nowhere in the general election. The European elections have much lower turnout and people tend to use them as a vehicle to express protest votes to a much larger degree than in general elections where they're more interested in electing a government.

[mr friendly guy]

According to Australian media Eurosceptic parties came out strong in France and Britain

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-27/e ... he/5479642

[Hillary]

The biggest consolation to me is that only 9.4% of those eligible to vote in the UK actually voted for UKIP. Given that UKIP supporters would be highly motivated to vote in the Euro elections, that's not massively high.

They will not be a force in next year's general election. They will not win a seat.

Doesn't seem to stop the media going crazy about their gains.

And are you assuming a 100% turn out for the general election there?

Of course not. But the turnout will be roughly double and if anything their absolute vote will drop (they'll lose a lot of the protest vote and their core vote will ALL have voted this time round, of course). Say they get about 15% (being generous), with the even spread of their votes they are not going to win any seats. They may hurt the Tories though, as they could split their vote.

The money is on a Lib/Lab coalition whatever.

[cosmicalstorm]

UKIP has already fulfilled their purpose to some degree, the other politicians know this is a warningshot from the voters and will adopt UKIP-ish policies to retain voters. Personally I voted for the Sweden Democrats, for me it's like deciding to jump out of a burning building. Not the exit I'd prefer but the other 7 political parties are insane in my eyes.

[Tony Stark]

Tony Blair On The BBC

Former PM Tony Blair has been on the BBC News channel. He says the Lib Dem slump in support was not a result of it being pro-European. The reason, he said was simple - it had stood at the last election on a platform to the left of Labour, but had then joined a coalition to the right of Labour. Asked if it was time to dump Ed Miliband as Labour leader, he says no and says the very idea was "bizarre" given the party's results in the local and European elections.

[Crazedwraith]

Whatever else you can say about Blair... he's got a point there.

No matter what they have done in power. No-one's forgotten the u turn on student fees for example

[Borgholio]

Germany and France have voted in a couple Ultra Right MEP's

Ultra-right?

They voted in Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands. Similarity to Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei isn't a coincidence, it was intended. You know, the guys who booed the moment of silence at 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Nazi Auschwitz extermination camp.

They got 1 seat and 1 percent of the votes, which is a huge drop in their support and just confirms they are utterly irrelevant already.

They booed the liberation of the most notorious death camp in history? Are they like your version of the Westboro Baptist Church?

[Irbis]

According to Australian media Eurosceptic parties came out strong in France and Britain

The thing is - it matters little. A short note to people who didn't read yet how EU parliament works - the influence there is divided to fractions (think political parties in normal parliament). To form a fraction, you need 25 MPs from 1/4 of the Member States. Most of eurosceptics are populist, xenophobic, or outright racist so I don't think many of them will be interested in joining forces with people they hate, delegating them to unimportant noisy background.

The big problem is, how little informed the populace is on importance of the elections. Let's see, on example of Poland, we sent 23 people to EPP (biggest centre right party) and 4 to S&D (biggest centre-left). Had the split been more equal, say 20:18 (without our internal left wing sabotage going on) the EU parliament could take a big change. Why?

EPP won 204 seats. S&D won 188. With the change above, it would be 201 to 202. It would mean S&D winning the election instead, and possibly with Martin Schulz, not Jean-Claude Juncker taking post of President of the European Commission. Vote in one big EU country can tip the scales (granted, situation in Poland is a bit abnormal right now, but still) - and yet people choose to throw votes away on mindless protest vote to candidates promising to fix things in their home countries despite EU parliament not having any influence on them *sigh* And later the same people complain EU is not democratic

As of now, 202 seats out of 751 seems to be wasted on protest vote, divided between non aligned and 2 small mildly eurosceptic fractions that are unlikely to take new radicals in. This number might fall as people from there join or defect to 5 fractions (2 left wing, 2 right wing, and center) that do have an influence on lawmaking, still, it's sad 27% of votes were as of now useless, and that before counting all votes that were discarded on state level.

They booed the liberation of the most notorious death camp in history? Are they like your version of the Westboro Baptist Church?

No, they are actual Nazis. Original, real nazis, looking both at country of origin and ideology.

They got 1 seat and 1 percent of the votes, which is a huge drop in their support and just confirms they are utterly irrelevant already.

The 'drop in support' might be one time thing seeing other protest parties did hijack some tickets that won't be relevant in normal elections. Plus, they just proved themselves capable of getting posts, which usually boosts the chances in next election unless the party does something stupid, and they are unlikely to say any more vile or stupid things than they already did.

So, I take it doesn't bother you in the slightest that the Germans can still vote on Nazis in good enough conscience to elect them?

But another, even worse thing was German constitutional court de facto calling EU worthless and smashing even the feeble barriers that almost stopped them. I kind of found the ruling extremely bizarre, but I might just not be familiar with some German law quirks that supported it. But then again, I also found the earlier ruling of the same constitutional court de facto declaring Germany non-democratic country and no one seeing to have even tiny problem with it equally bizarre.

[Thanas]

They got 1 seat and 1 percent of the votes, which is a huge drop in their support and just confirms they are utterly irrelevant already.

The 'drop in support' might be one time thing seeing other protest parties did hijack some tickets that won't be relevant in normal elections. Plus, they just proved themselves capable of getting posts, which usually boosts the chances in next election unless the party does something stupid, and they are unlikely to say any more vile or stupid things than they already did.

They got 1 seat. That makes them as relevant as the joke party who got one seat as well. Let that sink into your head - a party which was founded by comedians as an expressed joke got the same votes as the Nazis did. They are utterly irrelevant.

So, I take it doesn't bother you in the slightest that the Germans can still vote on Nazis in good enough conscience to elect them?

On the contrary, I find it a good thing that despite all the Nazi ideologies floating around Europe they are able to only get one seat.

But another, even worse thing was German constitutional court de facto calling EU worthless and smashing even the feeble barriers that almost stopped them. I kind of found the ruling extremely bizarre, but I might just not be familiar with some German law quirks that supported it. But then again, I also found the earlier ruling of the same constitutional court de facto declaring Germany non-democratic country and no one seeing to have even tiny problem with it equally bizarre.

Turns out equality before the law is more important than having a system keep being undemocratic for the sake of holding out 1% nutters.

[jwl]

The thing is - it matters little. A short note to people who didn't read yet how EU parliament works - the influence there is divided to fractions (think political parties in normal parliament). To form a fraction, you need 25 MPs from 1/4 of the Member States. Most of eurosceptics are populist, xenophobic, or outright racist so I don't think many of them will be interested in joining forces with people they hate, delegating them to unimportant noisy background.

Well I know UKIP have ruled out any deals with the National Front several times because Farage sees it as anti-Semitic, so that's the biggest two not working together.
But does it really make any practical difference when all every euroskeptic party is going to do is try to sabotage as many projects as possible and vote no for every motion?

[Irbis]

Well I know UKIP have ruled out any deals with the National Front several times because Farage sees it as anti-Semitic, so that's the biggest two not working together.
But does it really make any practical difference when all every euroskeptic party is going to do is try to sabotage as many projects as possible and vote no for every motion?

The thing is, projects are mostly done in side commissions. Positions of commission and parliamentary speakers go overwhelmingly to factions, who then distribute them according to size of national delegations. Only two fractions are eurosceptic, and both are so small they will at best get a tiny handful of posts. The rest of the far righters is unlikely to coordinate anything, and even if they do, 5 biggest fractions will simply outvote them, they still have 62% of seats.

Still, yes, work will possibly go slower due to need of more consensus between big 5. This is, by the way, another reason why protest vote was stupid, if you want change of policies you vote on the established fraction that represents you the best, not joke parties that will be pure waste of taxpayer money.

Let that sink into your head - a party which was founded by comedians as an expressed joke got the same votes as the Nazis did.

One, there is slight difference between voting for nazis and a joke. Two, Germany is relatively well off now. How many would vote for them if there was a crisis? Remember jump of support for Golden Dawn? And even the chart you linked shows jumps to 5% at times, and I can't recall Germany having any crisis then.

On the contrary, I find it a good thing that despite all the Nazi ideologies floating around Europe they are able to only get one seat.

Nazi ideology mostly shows up in EU countries with massive crisis, and even half of these didn't exactly voted for nazis or even radical right wingers. Electing nazis on upswing is concerning.

Turns out equality before the law is more important than having a system keep being undemocratic for the sake of holding out 1% nutters.

You have got it the other way around, the system which was called undemocratic and distorting votes by supreme court (2 way voting and overhang seats) is still in effect, IIRC. The very one where voting for party might cause it to lose seats. Or did they finally changed it, 6 years late? Because from what I saw, change 2 years ago that missed court's deadline was deemed unconstitutional too and new voting law illegal?

The vote cutoff system that somehow is democratic enough for German elections (and every country around Germany) was turned off, because it is suddenly not democratic enough when it is used in German EU elections. Or rather, as you read the verdict, it's because EU is 'unimportant', electing nazis to Bundestag would be a disgrace, to EU parliament, who cares?

[jwl]

Turns out equality before the law is more important than having a system keep being undemocratic for the sake of holding out 1% nutters.

You have got it the other way around, the system which was called undemocratic and distorting votes by supreme court (2 way voting and overhang seats) is still in effect, IIRC. The very one where voting for party might cause it to lose seats. Or did they finally changed it, 6 years late? Because from what I saw, change 2 years ago that missed court's deadline was deemed unconstitutional too and new voting law illegal?

The vote cutoff system that somehow is democratic enough for German elections (and every country around Germany) was turned off, because it is suddenly not democratic enough when it is used in German EU elections. Or rather, as you read the verdict, it's because EU is 'unimportant', electing nazis to Bundestag would be a disgrace, to EU parliament, who cares?

I don't get that. I understand how you can get small amounts of negative vote weighting under AV, but how does it work under the German system?

[Thanas]

Let that sink into your head - a party which was founded by comedians as an expressed joke got the same votes as the Nazis did.

One, there is slight difference between voting for nazis and a joke. Two, Germany is relatively well off now. How many would vote for them if there was a crisis? Remember jump of support for Golden Dawn? And even the chart you linked shows jumps to 5% at times, and I can't recall Germany having any crisis then.

Actually, those spikes happen in states that are hit the hardest by German economy problems and feature high unemployment. So yes, those states were in crisis for all intents and purposes of that word.

Nazi ideology mostly shows up in EU countries with massive crisis, and even half of these didn't exactly voted for nazis or even radical right wingers. Electing nazis on upswing is concerning.

Dude, 1%. It is nothing. You can find 1% of idiots everywhere.

The vote cutoff system that somehow is democratic enough for German elections (and every country around Germany) was turned off, because it is suddenly not democratic enough when it is used in German EU elections. Or rather, as you read the verdict, it's because EU is 'unimportant', electing nazis to Bundestag would be a disgrace, to EU parliament, who cares?

Look, I don't think you are able to understand the system because it involves a lot of legalese and principles, but really, the court said nothing of the sort.

[madd0ct0r]

i think you might need a better explanation then 'you can't understand this, just accept what I say'

[Thanas]

I might, but it would take about 1.5 hours of translation, so I'll just concede the point if pressed because that is not worth my time.

[Dartzap]

So who is going to be the El Presidente of the Union now that the former favorite been given the cold shoulder by Merkel?

[Siege]

Let's not pretend it's solely up to Merkel to decide who gets to be Commission president. Her statement is far from a glowing endorsement, but Juncker isn't out of the race yet. EPP is the largest block, after all, and he is its leader.

It'd be funny if this discord ended up blowing up EPP though. Ah, a man can dream.