The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I'm not desperately backtracking. I have stated a clear, and consistent argument the entire time. Herding goats? Oh, I don't know, but it could be because it's ecologically more suited to some areas? Goat meat is, you know, a premium item for billions of the world's population, you little sanctimonious argument loving idiot, so it's not precisely like I'm telling anyone to be poor. Sheep? The other half of that equation? Shit, I didn't know that people didn't pay large premiums for real wool clothing anymore... I guess I'm just a racist for suggesting that in some areas where they're more ecologically suited, Native Americans might herd sheep instead of cattle. GASP. I'm apparently condemning them to a life of backwards poverty out of racism by suggesting they might choose to do something which makes the Aussies a lot of money in land more suited for it than cattle herding ! I'm so evil.
There is nothing wrong with goat herding, the issue is that you intentionally conflated it with restoring "economic prosperity and cultural, linguistic and social integrity."
This is what you said:
For example, reestablishment of the Great Sioux Reservation as a Sovereign Protectorate of the United States would be a good first step in that direction, and one which would make sense environmentally as well due to the reversion of that area of the Great Plains into the "Great American Desert" where farming is increasingly unsustainable, but the land remains optimal for traditional low-intensity herding.
Note "traditional". I get that you are shoehorning in your very real environmental concern about drought and land usage into this issue but you prove you are falling into stereotypes again and again with comments like this:
They lost the land and watched foreigners come in and wreck it. They understand quite well the importance of managing it correctly now. That is all that aspect of the argument was.
I can just see you envisioning the lone warrior on a horse above a landfill letting a tear fall to the ground. That image is insulting and racist Duchess. There is no special relationship with the native american and the ground below him any more than there is for anyone else with the ground below them and in this case it’s the SAME GROUND. A white corn farmer or a Native American goat herder or visa versa, neither has any intrinsic closer connection to the land over the other. They have both been there for generations at this point.
If you want everyone to start herding goats that’s fine, but there is no special reason the Native Americans will be better at it than anyone else or would more readily chose it. Actually they may be worse than the current owners which is why I asked you what percentage of the reservation population is engaged in agriculture and more importantly sustainable agriculture different from that being used by the current users. I suspect that you will just be putting amateurs into a profession they don't currently perform but somehow think a magic connection with the land will make them better at . See Zimbabwe.
As of the last US census
78% of those identifying as native americans don't even live on reservations and 70% overall live in urban areas. Not exactly the best recruiting pool for the new agricultural labor you intend to usher in a new age of economic prosperity.
And while we are at it, why are we assuming goat herding is an avenue to economic prosperity? Note that sustainable and profitable are different things, and the Native Americans need something really profitable. Sure lots of the world eats goat, but can you point me to any area with a Western living standard that is supported by such? I can point to plenty of areas where corn and wheat and soy do so here in the US.
Here is a report on the world goat industry, you will note where the majority of it resides and the prosperity of the countries in question. You will note goat meat only made up 2% of meat inventories worldwide so local unrecorded consumption asside its hardly a "a premium item for billions of the world's population" as you contend. Surely a rare protein source for many, but because there is no other choice and its not like the mythical reservation in question is going to import it to Kenya.
You will also note there was no goat inventory at all in the US, meaning there is almost no market for it. This is your grand idea for economic prosperity? Producing a meat with no local demand except places you can't export it to and make up 2% of the market anyway? Maybe you can develop that market during the next half century, but it’s nothing to hang your hat on. I personally like goat, I am sure it will eventually be very popular here. I doubt you are buying futures in the industry right now though are you?
You have two scenarios here. Some local Native American farmers use goats in currently unoccupied land for subsistence, but that’s not "economic prosperity" now is it? Or they repurpose existing farmland to this end and destroy a currently economically viable enterprise to live on subsistence. The second may be the inevitable result of the drought you brought up anyway, but that still /= economic prosperity for anyone.
Goats are not going to produce what you want. I don't think that’s what you intend every Native American to do, but you specifically mentioned it as relevant to achieving your end goals.
Oh and you have been consistent, consistent on advocating forced deportation of people based on race. This needs to be remembered when you are throwing your reactionary racist accusations around.
HOW MANY RURAL INDIAN RESERVATIONS IN THE WEST HAVE YOU BEEN TO? HOW MANY? ANSWER ME RIGHT NOW, SHIT-LICKER. I'll plot out the course I drove to every single one that I've been to! Don't you even DARE go ahead and accuse me of this--I already goddamned preempted you on it and explained how it wasn't true, and here you go ignoring it and charging me to make yourself feel better, you racist Native-hating dipshit.
Ah, self righteous indignation and a false resumption of authority without any actual details to support said authority. Is this really what you are going to rest on, you having visited a few reservations? The "I have a black friend defense?"
I don't doubt the sincerity of your intentions but unless you are about to tell us you work for the Department of Indian Affairs, are a member of a tribal council, live on one of these reservations or maybe just took a few courses in college you are just an amateur commenter just like everyone else. Your statements have to stand on their own and so far they do not.
And I was pretty sure I was careful not to claim you were a racist, but rather your barely thought out and unrealistic plan and the assumptions underlining it are.
Indigenous people have a different culture than your's. Neither of us has a particular right to speak about it, but I know more about it than you do.
I certainly do have a right to speak about it as do you or anyone else, and your assumption of authority is baseless. I have not claimed any special knowledge or expertise and am only commenting on your idiotic return fantasy that is no different than that of Saxonite and stupid for all the same reasons.
No, I am not. I am stating facts about land use in the great plains and intermountain west. You are -- you're INCREDIBLE, your blind ignorance, you are absolutely convinced I must be wrong and you know nothing at all about these locations. You've never been out there and driven a gravel road on a high plains butte and actually stopped and talked with these people? Plenty of the young people on reservations leave them already and that's a problem because it puts them beyond the support of their extended families and tribal social services and at prey to drugs and alcohol even worse than they are on the reservation. They want money to make their reservations liveable and they want jobs and income. These are the kinds of revenue streams a giant chunk of the great plains can produce. You are ignoring that to force my beliefs and my advocacy for indigenous rights down into a pigeon-hole so that you can feel smug and superiour with your own forced assimilationist beliefs that are in fact racist. And you know what? I've consistently advocated for sovereignty for the tribes, also known as let them make their own decisions with their own land. I'd be happy for them to be quite free to ignore me! But you miss that in your own rush to make your racism and assimilationism feel better.
1.) I have been to the plains states many times, I don't believe that gives me any particular insight into these issues and I know it doesn't give you any as your whole goats=gold fiasco above indicates.
2.) Youth leaving reservations is as its heart no different than what all rural areas of the US are facing, only
16% of the population being rural. That’s far lower than than the Native American rural population but their percentage has been plummeting right alongside the rest of America. And they are leaving for the exact same reasons, lack of opportunity. Goat farming aside, you are not going to get those people to return or stay on the reservations any more than you are going to get black people to return or stay in rural southern communities based on that alone.
And while Native Americans probably do face a under layer of racism depending on where they go when they flee to urban areas its not going to be any different than any other minority. Or anyone from that matter leaving a rural setting for the big city.
No, motherfucker. Let me tell you something -- this is a scientific field for me -- there is a difference between agriculture and cultivation. Fish ponds mimic this. A fish hatchery is direct control of the fish stock from eggs to produce mature fish outside of the regular run. That is aquaculture. A fish pond essentially creates a location for fish to concentrate and reproduce naturally. Now if there are self-contained populations in fish ponds they are more like a full-up fish farm. But in this case what the Northwest natives did was intensive harvesting of the salmon runs, which were a preexisting resource, by careful concentration of the salmon into harvestable locations along the river. This is fishing, it is not fish farming. There is a difference.
And you don't get to retreat to some nitpicky irrelevances about why I didn't spend fifty lines parsing different levels and types of agriculture. You knew damn well what I was talking about and the simple fact is that your anecdotal reference to a few Native Americans practicing sustainable (but not necessarily profitable) agriculture does not reflect at all on the 5.8 million Native Americans in this country, at least 70% of which have no connection to agriculture in any of its forms whatsoever.
You are the one who highlighted this as some special road to prosperity. If you didn't mean that fine but sustainable agriculture is NOT going to lift reservations out of poverty by itself. It will probably end up contributing to any successful reservation economy to the same degree it does any rural state such as Kansas, who has at a glance has over
two million non farm jobs in a population of just 2.9 million people.
That is FALSE. Of course they are more likely to do so! THERE IS NO WATER LEFT. New people coming in who aren't invested in the old way of doing things like their grandfather did are almost certain to make changes to deal with the fact that the AQUIFERS ARE EMPTY. Jesus christ! Have you ever watched an old western? The natives are all shown as nomads in them -- this is quite different from their modern way of living. Grow up yourself, racist! You have come right in here and insulted me again and again in the worst fashion and tried to completely twist my words against me, but it isn't true! The simple fact is that ALL I WAS DOING WAS SUGGESTING HOW THE LAND COULD BE EFFECTIVELY WORKED FOR PROFIT, DIGNITY AND SELF-RESPECT AS A MATTER OF SCIENTIFIC AGRICULTURE.
Yeah, and those changes are not to engage in agriculture. Just because you can raise goats doesn't mean it’s economically viable or something you are going to rely on to lift a population out of crushing poverty. And quite a bit of agriculture is wildly prosperous right now and the youth are STILL leaving as it is not the lifestyle they want profitable or not.
And no, as I quoted above you advocated them returning to TRADITIONAL agriculture processes, specifically herding, and somehow think that will magically not only uplift them out of poverty but also give them dignity and self respect (you as a white man knowing what that is, your standard used above not mine).
How about this Dutchess, why don't they abandon your rural pipe dream and do what the local economy supports and demands? Being a natural gas driller or a banker or a baker or a pharmacist is not white people stuff, its modern economy and money producing stuff. There is no reason that can't produce dignity and self respect and that can be done in NYC or Spokane or Del Rio or the reservation. If one of those things is goat herding go for it, again these things are dictated by economic reality or anything else you would describe as “traditional” as you did for herding so be it.
That is now "dictating". The logic is -- this is all, scientifically, that the land is suited for! Don't you understand that? The aquifers have run out!
If you can quote where I said otherwise you get a cookie. As I said even the current residents will probably have to adapt to this but that /= goat herding. Not for the ends you want and whatever they decide to switch to (if they decide to stay, which people the youth of all races right now are NOT) is probably going to be not be done via the urban transplants you want bring in once you are done ethnically cleansing your new territory.
That L stands for LONG TERM. That vicious blob across the American landscape is not going away. It's racist now, you dipshit, to suggest that people engage in what is scientifically the only long-term viable form of land use in a region!? I am the one with science on my side! the great plains aren't fit for large-scale agriculture in the region of the Great Sioux reservation and never were! You're ignoring the science to try and turn me into a racist and I AM NOT A GODDAMNED RACIST.
I don't think you are a racist, I think you are haplessly saying racist things because you are not examining the reality of your position.
And I highly doubt goat herding is the ONLY think suitable for that land. After all we already have deserts in the US and goat herding accounts for exactly 0% of the economy of Phoenix.
You could have saved yourself all this trouble if you had just refrained from saying "traditional" in your goat herding appeal. Knowing something about goat herding probably would have helped too.
Dipshit, don't you understand? THAT IS ALL THE LAND IS SUITED FOR. LITERALLY.
...
THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO USE IT. Are you ignorant? Have you ever been to these regions? I have! Have you ever read the scientific studies of soil and water depletion in the Great Plains? I have!
Nope, but yes the current model is not sustainable. Your goal is economic prosperity, prove goat herding provides that.
And you already tipped your hand with "they watched the white man ruin their land and they won't let it happen again!" BS. Science is not your sole motivation for deciding how this will all go down.
This is your racist projection!
You use this word a lot but have yet to back it up. Please do.
No, it isn't. It is very important to indigenous people and I would be happy to link you to many of their websites to that effect. You are a lying white dipshit who wants to find reasons to keep from giving them back large sections of land they are owed.
1.) Oh please do point us to this indigenous population enjoying amazing economic prosperity following your process. Do they live in Zimbabwe?
2.) So now you are an actual racist complete with racist slurs? Congratulations? Surely not, you can clarify for us yes? Land is only an issue here if you intend to have them revert to a centuries dead economic model of yesteryear where these practices were viable (and even then not very) and required said land. Land and agriculture is not the arbiter of anything you might use to achieve actually desirable goals. Building schools, technology education, history lessons and museums, removing institutional barriers, food health and medical care and yes the introduction of modern economic models of all industries and sectors including sustainable farming are.
Giving a modern assimilated urban Native American youth a goat and plopping him in his pumas and graphic T-shirt into 40 acres of hard scrabble land with some white dudes burnt down house in the distance is just going to force him to buy a plane ticket back to Boston. That land does him NOTHING. A college scholarship on the other hand...
THEY DON'T WANT TO OR THEY ALREADY WOULD HAVE. The end result of their leaving the reservations has been drug abuse and poverty in urban areas. The reservations are now about obtaining sovereignty and rebuilding self-respect. I've seen the massive effort of outreach required in the indigenous population in Portland tired into the mire of drugs and alcohol and away from social support networks, compared to dignity and self-respect that has been achieved on the reservations which have been able to claw themselves out of poverty. You are DREAMING that people prefer assimilation to their cultural integrity and it is intensely racist because it is your inherent assumption that your white man's culture is BETTER when it ISN'T.
1.) Are you claiming Native Americans have some predisposition to drugs and poverty once they leave the reservation? Those problems are rampant on the reservations themselves and are a symptom of poverty not anything specific to Native Americans themselves. It’s the classic fish out of water story and ALL migrants are subject to it (minorities more so depending on where they go due to racism, not predisposition).
2.) I did not say anyone prefers assimilation, I said that the vast majority ARE assimilated. 78% don't even live on reservations. I think its abundantly clear assimilation works better than these crypto fascist pseudo states based on racism and ethnic cleansing you propose for the same reasons they are for black people as was discussed at length earlier in the thread. I, however, am not the source of the reality as it stands today.
IT DOESN'T MAKE SCIENTIFIC SENSE, and isn't even physically possible anymore in this region, how dare you enter this argument with NO KNOWLEDGE AT ALL of land use structures in the great plains?
Which doesn't mean they are not going to try regardless if it will only be possible for a short while and end up screwing them in the end. Sustainable agriculture other than what is currently practiced makes sense nearly EVERYWHERE in the long term but also very often in the short term, but how many places are actually doing it? How many places are just going to milk the land for what it’s worth and give the next generation a dried out cracked patch of desert?
But not the Native Americans. Oh no, they have a generational memory and are different from every other human on earth for reasons! They will squeeze blood from a stone and make the desert blossom with their nature power inherited from their ancestors who were in perfect commune with the earth and eschew all the values and expectations of the modern society most of them currently live with and cherish. Local school boards? Local Courts? Labor Day planning committee? BAH! All will be willingly abandoned to live at the whim of ethnically determined tribal leadership and the heavy hand of the Bureau of Indian Affairs and Indian Health Service. Sorry little Johnny (of course he will receive a proper name that has linguistic and cultural integrity and provide dignity to his unknown to him but surely dignity devoid life up until now), mom and dad need to quite their white man jobs under the white man's yoke and go herd goats "traditionally". I’m not sure if all the white people are gone yet but we will take care of that if not…[/sarcasm]
This is your world Dutchess, enjoy. That generational memory has served the Palestinians well surely.
Racist projection, 100%. How long until you get banned for your racist projection? I can only hope..
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I don't have any knowledge as to the doings of site moderation, but given the plethora of actually racism you have thrown out in this thread up to and including advocating ethnic cleansing you are probably in for a rude awakening.
Go ahead and quote all my racism though. Again, cookies are on the line