Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

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The Duchess of Zeon
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Channel72 wrote:
In other words, you're full of shit.

I'll find more sources, then. But you're not changing my mind on a fundamental point of philosophy: That loss of cultural identification leads to the loss of hope and meaning and will to live in people. The theory has been quite well documented and covered. The trick is just injecting it down into a single internet link for small minds like your's to cover.

Are you paying attention? I'm NOT arguing that we've reached economic parity between whites and blacks in this country - far from it. The point is, since the 1960s we've gotten closer to economic equality, and there's no reason to think that this trend won't continue over the next century. Setting up a separate "black nation" would be totally pointless, and probably disastrous.
Perhaps they have the right to decide their own fate, racist. The smug sense of "integration will always work and I can create the perfect colourblind society" is just disgusting in the face of the systemic, fundamental prejudices we bring to the table. YOUR LINK, LOOK AT IT:

Image

AS THE ARTICLE ITSELF STATES, ALL OF THOSE GAINS WERE REVERSED BY THE RECESSION. THE DIFFERENCE IN AFRICAN-AMERICAN INCOME BETWEEN 1970 AND 2011 HAS BEEN VIRTUALLY WIPED OUT. Furthermore it says nowhere that those figures are adjusted for inflation! Do you realize how much poverty has GROWN in that case? Even if we assume they are adjusted for inflation: Congratulations, 9% of the African-American population has been lifted into the middle class or rich. A mere 9%.

You are one of the old school bastards on this forum who should have been cleansed out a long time ago. You are massively obfuscating over the simple brutal fact that not merely is median wealth 20% of what it is for whites, but median income is also 2/3rds of what it is for whites. If you were black in the US, take your paycheck and cut a third of it off! That's integrating working? What a wonderful colourblind world you live in, where everyone is allowed to rise on their merits! I'm sure you congratulate yourself often on the progress of your modern, technocratic, colourblind civilisation which has given those poor needy black people 2/3rds of the income of a precious white man yourself (and Jews can, in fact, be very racist against blacks, so don't pull that card on me).

Maybe you should look at yourself and think about what this kind of obfuscation and blind and stunning refusal to see reality means in you. Ah well, I don't have the time and I don't want the time. Your concession is accepted from your own sources.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

General Mung Beans wrote:One question for either Saxtonite or Duchess of Zion: Should other peoples be compensated for slavery? For example should Brazil cede a large portion of its territory to its blacks considering that its slavery lasted longer and was deadlier than slavery in the American South? For that matter should the states of North Africa give up say Oran and Benghazi to Spain and Italy to compensate for the Barbary Coast raids which took place into the early 19th Century?

Also despite the talk of there being "racial reconciliation" in South Africa, by all metrics (income, life-spans, crime-rates etc.) blacks in that country are far worse-off than those in the United States. BTW, average life-spans for black females is above that of white males in the United States.

I would say most of Latin America has been much more successful at integrating black people on a fundamental cultural level than the United States has. The long term, non-separatist solution to the black problem in the United States is almost certainly, to give my leaving thoughts on this thread (since no substantial or relevant opposition to my points existed now that I've shown Channel 72 was actually using figures that prove my case instead of his own!), a problem which can be solved one way: By the Latinization of the United States and with it the importation of Latin attitudes toward racial integration. So, if there isn't separatism, and there likely won't be, probably only a Hispanic majority US will ever solve the problem. Hopefully we keep our approach to native rights, though, because however bad they are they pale in comparison to some of the shit going down in Latin American countries toward indigenous peoples.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

here are another few links on the issue of lost cultural identity;
Culture is the expression of a people's creativity -- everything they make which is distinctively theirs: language, music, art, religion, healing, agriculture, cooking style, the institutions governing social life. To suppress culture is to aim a cannonball at the people's heart and spirit. Such a conquest is more accomplished than a massacre. "We have seen the colonization materially kills the colonized. It must be added that it kills him spiritually. Colonization distorts relationships, destroys and petrifies institutions, and corrupts....both colonizers and the colonized."
Fundamentally, integration as much as a loss of self as the mind-wipe of a droid, because your "self" is not an individual alone in the world, a rock, like you'd think of, but part of a collective whole of a culture, and the loss of things as simple as how you cook is part of a deracination of yourself into something separated from the individual created by your entire society. It is a loss of hope and purpose that for people in cultures subjected to western genocide can be essentially soul-crushing in the psychological sense of inducing alcoholism, depression, and suicide. Oh well. Let's go on to some serious facts! :


you know, just to make sure I'm not leaving anything out.

Alaska Natives face social and behavioral health problems that threaten the future existence of the unique cultures on which healthy lifeways were once based. Over the past several decades the lives of Alaska Natives have improved in a purely physical sense. But the quality of their lives, by many measures, has deteriorated. Improved housing and community infrastructure, greater life expectancy, and security against widespread hunger and many forms of once deadly diseases have not brought a sufficient amount of comfort or inner peace. Alcohol abuse and violence running rampant in Alaska Native society have disheveled family and village life. Death, physical and psychological injury, and apathy touching all generations of Alaska Natives are of alarming, and ever-increasing, proportions. Cultural values and mores that in the past provided clear instruction to tribal members and assured the social order of communities have been seriously eroded and, in some instances, virtually lost.
And:
If two centuries of physical, spiritual, and cultural death were the seeds of self-destruction, those seeds burst forth in the 1960s when the pressure just to keep physically alive was eased by the programs of President Johnson's War on Poverty.

By the time of statehood, Alaska Natives were seen in general as an extremely disadvantaged people. The economic position of Alaska Natives had fallen further and further behind nationwide averages, reflecting a stagnant economic position of Alaska Natives compared to the rise in the U.S. standard of living.22

In a physical sense, the federal War on Poverty — designed to close the gap nationwide between economic classes — brought benefits to Alaska Natives. But, finally able to catch their collective breath after generations of pursuit, Alaska Natives found themselves a culturally and spiritually crippled people. Rather than feeling comfort in government-built homes and contentment in government-funded food supplies, Alaska Natives felt, instead, emptiness and an overwhelming sense of loss. The statistics show that when the levels of public expenditures over the past 30 years are placed side-by-side with the data on individual, family, and societal well-being, the social and psychological condition of Native people has varied inversely with the growth of government programs intended to help them.

It was during the period when anti-poverty programs were being introduced throughout Alaska that Natives began to turn to alcohol in alarming numbers. Sadly, the result would be a new cycle of trauma and death — but this time self-inflicted. By the early 1970s, alcohol was identified as being a leading cause of death among Alaska Natives. The Alaska Native suicide rate, which did not significantly differ from nationwide averages through the 1950s, began to take a dramatic turn upwards.23 Other indicators of serious social and behavioral health breakdown — e.g., assault, murder, sexual crimes including those against children, avoidable accidents, and psychological depression — began to multiply throughout the 1960s and 1970s. As with Native suicides, these anti-social behaviors and conditions were, by and large, directly related to the use and abuse of alcohol.
That's what your damned integrationalist social welfare policies bought the Alaskan natives: A skyrocketing suicide rate and alcoholism as the lead cause of death. This STARTED in the Great Society, in the grand integrationist period, not before it, you dolt, and that is why you are fundamentally wrong and I am right. All the sources for the studies are provided in links from that source. You will doubtless come back with some trifling, pathetic soundbyte of disagreement on how the power of your ideology can overcome this, but you're wrong, and I don't care about what you have to say. The facts have spoken, and they're not your's.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

More broadly, I was prepared to get involved in this thread, but I don't have the right as a caucasian to fight Saxtonite's battle for him, so whereas I thought I was helping him before I now find myself carrying the entire debate -- which isn't right, as he has his own right to fight his own battles, which is sort of the entire point of the thread. I'd therefore generally ask people to give him a chance to reply at length to what has been said here, and then we can see about my involvement continuing after that... But I refuse to turn this thread into an argument of European descended people, because that trivializes its entire context. The world won't end tomorrow, please wait for him to return to address these matters before the sprawl reaches a point where he can't easily do so.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:AS THE ARTICLE ITSELF STATES, ALL OF THOSE GAINS WERE REVERSED BY THE RECESSION. THE DIFFERENCE IN AFRICAN-AMERICAN INCOME BETWEEN 1970 AND 2011 HAS BEEN VIRTUALLY WIPED OUT. Furthermore it says nowhere that those figures are adjusted for inflation! Do you realize how much poverty has GROWN in that case? Even if we assume they are adjusted for inflation: Congratulations, 9% of the African-American population has been lifted into the middle class or rich. A mere 9%.
The recession starting in 2008 was exceptionally bad, as far as recessions go. But prior to that, look at your own chart. A 13% reduction in working-class black households (33% to 29.2% before the recession hit) and 85% reduction in poor black households alongside a 24% increase in middle- and upper-middle class black households in 35 years is pretty impressive.

Especially when you consider that aside from occasional housing programs and the Great Society, America's actual commitment to directly boosting black households has been rather half-hearted, and the beginnings of integration coincided with a massive structural change in the economy that hit the Midwest and Northeast the hardest (including the industrial areas and northern cities that had drawn blacks out of the South in the Great Migration). Hell, this was in a period when household income for everyone except the upper-class was far slower than in the post-war period.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:You are one of the old school bastards on this forum who should have been cleansed out a long time ago. You are massively obfuscating over the simple brutal fact that not merely is median wealth 20% of what it is for whites, but median income is also 2/3rds of what it is for whites. If you were black in the US, take your paycheck and cut a third of it off! That's integrating working? What a wonderful colourblind world you live in, where everyone is allowed to rise on their merits! I'm sure you congratulate yourself often on the progress of your modern, technocratic, colourblind civilisation which has given those poor needy black people 2/3rds of the income of a precious white man yourself (and Jews can, in fact, be very racist against blacks, so don't pull that card on me).
It just takes time - especially when America's national-level commitment to integration aside from removing the obvious legal barriers hasn't been consistently strong. It took nearly 70 years in the late 19th century/early-to-mid twentieth century nadir of racial relations to even get to where we were in the 1950s, so why should it be surprising that it's going to take a couple decades to ameliorate that plus the legacy of centuries of white supremacism and slavery?

Hell, it takes time just to cycle the older population entrenched in government and business out of power. Tons of congressmen alone are people who grew up in segregated America, and while they can change their view-points, a more sure way is just for them to retire and die off for people who didn't grow up in that environment.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

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As I mentioned up-thread, we could drastically speed that process of increasing black household wealth, but in this political environment it's not happening. It's a damn shame.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

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Duchess of Zeon wrote:You're being ridiculous. I said the objective was to try and fix past wrongs with a minimum amount of suffering for all involved, and that compensated relocation from one American cookie-cutter suburb to another fits within that qualification whereas the removal of an entire population and country does not. Nowhere did I propose the relocation of the entire German race, or even the replacement of the entire South with Saxtonite's New Afrika. You are simply attempting a truly giant golden mean fallacy without picking apart the relevant merits of your counter-proposal, in an effort to make me look bad because, let's be honest, you don't like me.
No, I do like you. I've always thought you were pretty interesting.
Duchess of Zeon wrote:Now, at any rate, the point is that integration is preferable. And integration is arguably working better in Brasil than in the United States: "Money whitens" is the order of the day there, and we'd call it racist up here but the truth is, of course, that the successful black man in Brasil is treated like a member of respectable society, whereas even Clarence Thomas and Thomas Sowell are still black men in the United States, even a Harvard professor like Gates--still subject to arbitrary profiling and detention by the police. So the point is that US integration has failed on a fundamental level in that we still treat black people as inferiors subject to belonging to this undesirable "black class" in society with reduced rights even when they're very successful, whereas other societies with large black populations in the Americas can at least acknowledge that a black individual with the monetary signifiers of success in western culture is, in fact, their equal. We cannot.
I disagree that integration in the US is an absolute failure. The US just takes longer to get with the program. While the UK had William Wilberforce in the 18th century, the United States had to wait for the 19th century before the abolitionist movement gained serious political traction. It's the same today; due to the huge historical economic dependency on slavery and the associated cultural developments, the US' progress towards equality has been severely retarted; but that DOESN'T mean we're not making progress. We're just making progress at a slower pace than would be ideal.
Duchess of Zeon wrote:That is the fundamental gap which 40 years of integration hasn't breached and which is why, one has to say, Saxtonite's ideas have some real merit. And I have to question the relative racism of people who bleat to the contrary in a country where being black, 150 years after the end of slavery and 50 years after the collapse of the segregation regime, is still an arbitrary death sentence for the cops in urban areas to dispense 100 rounds of justice in a state of apopletic racial paranoia which fuels the militarisation of the nation and the loss of rights for ALL of us.
This is simply a holdover from the current economic disparity between blacks and whites. African Americans are more likely to commit crimes, precisely because they are more likely to exist below the poverty line. The corollary of this is that law enforcement is more likely to suspect/scrutinize African Americans than suburban whites (a situation which is, of course, exacerbated by and circularly causative with actual inherent racism). This will eventually change once the current generation dies out and blacks reach economic parity with whites.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

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I'm sure this is also just a holdover in economic disparities from the segregation era...

250 women in California prisons tricked into being sterilized while restrained on the operating table giving birth. What's the skin colour of the woman in the picture for the article? Oh, right, BLACK. This doesn't happen to white people in America.
Mother tells how she was strapped down while prison doctors persuaded her to be sterilized as it emerges nearly 250 California inmates were 'pressured' into the surgery
Doctor defends using taxpayer money to pay for tubal ligation surgeries because 'saves on welfare spending for unwanted children'
Doctors did not receive state approval for sterilization surgeries
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER

PUBLISHED: 21:35 EST, 7 July 2013 | UPDATED: 21:49 EST, 7 July 2013

A shocking new report reveals that nearly 250 women have been sterilized in California prisons since the 1990s, some as recently as 2010.

Many of the women say that they were repeatedly pressured into having tubal ligation surgeries by prison doctors - raising the specter of California's dark history of eugenics.

Female inmates revealed stories of being told - while in labor - that they should have the surgery, without being given a reason why it was medically necessary.

The Center for Investigative Reporting found that between 1997 and 2010, the state of California paid more than $147,000 for sterilization surgeries on 148 sterilization surgeries - all of which were performed without proper state approval or oversight.

Pressure: Kimberly Jeffrey said she was pressured multiple times, including while strapped to an operating table, to have sterilization surgery after giving birth to her son Noel, now 3

Instead of going through state prison healthcare regulators, doctors took it in their own hands to order the permanent surgery, which is commonly referred to as a woman 'having her tubes tied.'

Dr James Heinrich, the for OB-GYN at Valley State Prison for Women in Chowchilla, California, said the money was a bargain for California taxpayers.

'Over a 10-year period, that isn’t a huge amount of money compared to what you save in welfare paying for these unwanted children – as they procreated more,' he told the CIR.


He said no patients were coerced into having sterilization surgery and he only recommended women who were at risk after multiple C-sections.

The CIR found that doctors targeted pregnant inmates who already had multiple children and were seen as being likely to wind up back in prison after their release.

Christina Cordero, 34, who gave birth in Valley State prison in 2006, says she felt like she was coerced by Dr Heinrich into having the sterilization surgery after giving birth to her child.

'As soon as he found out that I had five kids, he suggested that I look into getting it done. The closer I got to my due date, the more he talked about it,' Christina Cordero, who served a two year prison sentence for auto theft, said.


Most of the incidents took place at the Valley State Prison for Women in Chowchilla, California



'Over a 10-year period, that isn’t a huge amount of money compared to what you save in welfare paying for these unwanted children – as they procreated more.'


Dr James Heinrich, the for OB-GYN at Valley State Prison for Women, on the $175,000 spent on sterilizations

'He made me feel like a bad mother if I didn’t do it.'

She added: 'Today, I wish I would have never had it done.'

Kimberly Jeffrey, 43, says she was strapped to a hospital table and under the influence of medication - preparing to have a C-section in 2010, when the doctor all but demanded she agree to sterilization surgery.

'He said, "So we’re going to be doing this tubal ligation, right?"

'I’m like, "Tubal ligation? What are you talking about? I don’t want any procedure. I just want to have my baby." I went into a straight panic.'

Prison records from Valley State show that Jeffrey, who was imprisoned for a probation violation, had rejected requests she undergo sterilization surgery twice before.

'Being treated like I was less than human produced in me a despair,' she said.

Nikki Montano, 42, who has seven children, agreed to sterilization surgery after giving birth in Valley State in 2008. She said she was battling drug addiction at the time and was undergoing a C-section.

She was never given a medical reason why she needed the surgery, she said.


The sterilizations reportedly targeted women who had multiple children and were deemed like to re-offend

'I figured that’s just what happens in prison – that that’s the best kind of doctor you’re going get,' Montano told the CIR.

Many states, including New York and North Carolina, have a history of sterilizing 'undesirable' people - the mentally ill, criminals, women deemed to be 'promiscuous.'

The most egregious use of this practice, however, was in California, where some 20,000 people were sterilized against their will from 1904 until 1964.

Even the Nazis took notice of the state's eugenics policies and sent representatives to study the state's policies in the 1930s.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

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You're using fuck-ups in a particular woman's prison, in a state that has a bad history of promoting sterilization, as a case example of how integration overall is not working? And there's nothing there about whether the 250 women in question were all black.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by Channel72 »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I'm sure this is also just a holdover in economic disparities from the segregation era...

250 women in California prisons tricked into being sterilized while restrained on the operating table giving birth. What's the skin colour of the woman in the picture for the article? Oh, right, BLACK. This doesn't happen to white people in America.
Are you serious? What the hell does this have to do with anything? I'm not saying that bad shit doesn't happen due to racism. I'm saying that the overall economic trends in terms of wealth and education show that integration is (slowly) working.

Please do not post another meaningless anecdote about how black people are suffering somewhere in the US. Nobody disputes that.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

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I'm sorry, but does Duchess think that those who live on Western reservations still survive via herding buffalo? Or that they would expand into their newly aqired farm land by turning it into 150 year old grazing models?
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

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I didn't know that education was an economic trend. Let's just say that it really depends on whether or not the African American community actually makes a recovery from the recession. There are plenty of signs from the joblessness of this recovery that your trend is about to come to an end. And it isn't an anecdote because it represents a failure of social integration.

Patroklos: They need sovereignty over their land back. And actually Native Americans are some of the leaders in sustainable agricultural processes. In this case I think they'd use the land for sparse grazing of goats and sheep and limited cattle in certain areas -- because that's what it's actually capable of handling. Native Americans in the Pacific Northwest are leaders at the smart preservation of salmon, running their own salmon fish farms, and your attitude is both patronizing to me and patronizing to them. Native peoples are smarter than that and quite capable of adopting the latest modern smart-grazing methods that are ecologically sustainable in that region. Or the latest sustainable farming in another region of the country. And for the most part they would be run as joint investment corporations to benefit the entire tribe, like SeaLand Corp for the Tlingit and Haida in southern Alaska.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

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I think you are failing to realize that they do this because reservations were purposely put on unproductive land and that type of farming is all thats possible. Most native americans are not living anything even remotely approximating the life style or professions of their ancestors through choice. If control of the farm land of Kansas and Nebraska and what not were magically given over to them one day they would use it exactly as it is being used now or as close in proximity as they can get given the resourcless rump state you intend to build because your average native american is assimilated.

There is nothing inherent in a western native american decendant that makes them predispposed to buffalo herding and your expectation of their land usage and occupation choice is pretty much just wishful thinking and racism. If you want goat hearding to the be the primary agriculture you will have to force them at gun point, assuming there are any people left on your reservation other than those who were farming that way before and wanted to remain that way (probably not all of them now).

Which brings us back to the Afrika, which will have the same problem. This assumption that all these probably urban black transplants from Chicago and Baltimore and New York and Los Angeles will just show up out of the blue to a geographic area they have no personal or cultural connection with to integrate themselves into a largely agrarian rural economy for which they have no experiance is just wierd. I asked Saxonite if he lived in the South because I don't think he has any connection to it either and is just shoehorning in either an agrarian fantasy land or Chicago II on top of a distinct and unique geographic region.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

You seem to be MASSIVELY projecting on my apparent " racism and wishful thinking" that they would live the lives of their ancestors. You are arguing a massive strawman! LOOK at what I actually wrote!
What Duchess Actually Said wrote: And actually Native Americans are some of the leaders in sustainable agricultural processes.
Do you think I was talking about their traditional practices? NO. I'm talking about MODERN SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURAL INDUSTRY.
What Duchess Actually Said wrote:Native Americans in the Pacific Northwest are leaders at the smart preservation of salmon, running their own salmon fish farms
Where were the FISH FARMS in 1492? Oh right, I wasn't making the argument you claim at all and you're just strawmanning me.

Oh, and how about THIS? :
What Duchess Actually Said wrote:Native peoples are smarter than that and quite capable of adopting the latest modern smart-grazing methods that are ecologically sustainable in that region.
Listen up, little man. I am not going to have my advocacy for indigenous rights turned around on me and claimed by some little shithead on the internet that I am a racist and I want to force Native Americans to live their traditional lifestyles. In giving back land to them I want them to be able to use it to restore economic prosperity and cultural, linguistic, and social integrity to their nations as is their fundamental right. I am simply arguing that they are going to use it smarter -- just like today some white farmers have adopted sustainable agricultural methods.

You have completely ignored every word I said and are arguing with air to fit your own self-satisfied notion that anyone that advocates for the expansion of Native American sovereignty and tribal land wants to force them to live a traditional life style, and that isn't goddamned true. They lost the land and watched foreigners come in and wreck it. They understand quite well the importance of managing it correctly now. That is all that aspect of the argument was.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Link to PDF on the Nez Perce Tribal Hatchery Project.

Now if you cannot explain how a reference to that kind of project proves I am a racist who wants to force Native Americans to engage in traditional buffalo herding, I gladly accept your concession. I was suggesting the land could be used for standard best practices sustainable management of grazing instead of modern wheat monoculture, particularly the sectors in Nebraska where the wheat monoculture is still the norm but this has exhausted the water table.

++http://graysharbor.wsu.edu/weeds/docume ... ustain.pdf

But I guess scientific land management is racist now.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

So ... when exactly has fragmenting a country based on ethnic and racial grounds worked completely peacefully? Because it seems to me that, historically, it usually involves a bloody civil war, with no guaranteed promise of future peace or prosperity.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by Patroklos »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:You seem to be MASSIVELY projecting on my apparent " racism and wishful thinking" that they would live the lives of their ancestors. You are arguing a massive strawman! LOOK at what I actually wrote
If you can show me anything other than a irrelevant fraction of the western indian reservation populations are 1.) engaging in agriculture period and are 2.) engaging in the agriculture you describe you can pretend you have a point. You obviously have some fantasy that these reservations are agricuture utopias and it nicely dovetails with the steriotypical depiction of one with nature Indians living in harmony with the land.

You just explicity stated they should start herding goats. Why the hell would they do that?
What Duchess Actually Said wrote: And actually Native Americans are some of the leaders in sustainable agricultural processes.
Do you think I was talking about their traditional practices? NO. I'm talking about MODERN SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURAL INDUSTRY.
And assuming that modern Native Americans want to be hunters/fisherman/herders instead of bankers, wheat farmers and pop stars. You are still pigeon holing them into their traditional (assumed) roles.
What Duchess Actually Said wrote:Native Americans in the Pacific Northwest are leaders at the smart preservation of salmon, running their own salmon fish farms

Where were the FISH FARMS in 1492? Oh right, I wasn't making the argument you claim at all and you're just strawmanning me.
Why are we going to 1492, do you have any knowledge of North West colonization whatsoever?Native Americans very much made fish ponds and the like stalwarts of their food sources in the east, I am sure it was not unique to them.

The modernity of the tasks you dictate to them are irrelevant, its the fact that you assume that they will want to be in these professions instead of anything else. Not only that, but you blatantly stated that they would be more likely to herd goats than grow wheat and corn like white people in Nebraska and Kansas. You have no logical reason to assume this other than steriotypes out of a 1950s western.
Oh, and how about THIS? :
What Duchess Actually Said wrote:Native peoples are smarter than that and quite capable of adopting the latest modern smart-grazing methods that are ecologically sustainable in that region.
You mean where you once again assume native peoples will return to herding? Its okay though because they will be smart about it, but herders all the same!
Listen up, little man. I am not going to have my advocacy for indigenous rights turned around on me and claimed by some little shithead on the internet that I am a racist and I want to force Native Americans to live their traditional lifestyles. In giving back land to them I want them to be able to use it to restore economic prosperity and cultural, linguistic, and social integrity to their nations as is their fundamental right. I am simply arguing that they are going to use it smarter -- just like today some white farmers have adopted sustainable agricultural methods.
You are not argueing for indigeounous rights, you are arguing for some retarded return fantasy. You said it right there again with assumption that they would use the land any other way than anyone else as if they are naturally good at agriculture. As if sustainable agriculture and speaking what is almost universally a secondary language (if they even know it at all) is some bench mark for having economic prosperity or cultural/linguistic/social integrity. That last bit is hilarious.

Would your little fantasy remain intact when all the young assimilated native americans sell their goat herds and head to NYC? Or worse, start growing corn and wheat like their white oppressors because thats what makes economic sense? Are they then uncle tontos for not accepting your vision of sustainable agriculture and speaking a near dead language thus being culturally/linguistically/socially bankrupt?
You have completely ignored every word I said and are arguing with air to fit your own self-satisfied notion that anyone that advocates for the expansion of Native American sovereignty and tribal land wants to force them to live a traditional life style, and that isn't goddamned true. They lost the land and watched foreigners come in and wreck it. They understand quite well the importance of managing it correctly now. That is all that aspect of the argument was.
[/quote]

And you are desperatly backtracking. You made an assumption of what native americans would do and how they would do it based soley on some anecdotal cases of a few native american individuals running sustainable agriculture practices. You then applied it to a nation of almost three million people because it fit your sterotypical association of Indians with living in harmony with the land. Instead of treating them as normal Americans with similar goals and lifestyles you mary sued them into something they are not.

Seriously, so they can have cultural/linguistic/social integrity? Who the hell do you think you are?
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by Losonti Tokash »

Patroklos, just curious, but what's your background in dealing with Native rights and issues advocacy?
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by Patroklos »

The same as everyone here, idle speculation.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

I'm not desperately backtracking. I have stated a clear, and consistent argument the entire time. Herding goats? Oh, I don't know, but it could be because it's ecologically more suited to some areas? Goat meat is, you know, a premium item for billions of the world's population, you little sanctimonious argument loving idiot, so it's not precisely like I'm telling anyone to be poor. Sheep? The other half of that equation? Shit, I didn't know that people didn't pay large premiums for real wool clothing anymore... I guess I'm just a racist for suggesting that in some areas where they're more ecologically suited, Native Americans might herd sheep instead of cattle. GASP. I'm apparently condemning them to a life of backwards poverty out of racism by suggesting they might choose to do something which makes the Aussies a lot of money in land more suited for it than cattle herding ! I'm so evil.
You obviously have some fantasy that these reservations are agricuture utopias and it nicely dovetails with the steriotypical depiction of one with nature Indians living in harmony with the land.
HOW MANY RURAL INDIAN RESERVATIONS IN THE WEST HAVE YOU BEEN TO? HOW MANY? ANSWER ME RIGHT NOW, SHIT-LICKER. I'll plot out the course I drove to every single one that I've been to! Don't you even DARE go ahead and accuse me of this--I already goddamned preempted you on it and explained how it wasn't true, and here you go ignoring it and charging me to make yourself feel better, you racist Native-hating dipshit.

Indigenous people have a different culture than your's. Neither of us has a particular right to speak about it, but I know more about it than you do.
And assuming that modern Native Americans want to be hunters/fisherman/herders instead of bankers, wheat farmers and pop stars. You are still pigeon holing them into their traditional (assumed) roles.
No, I am not. I am stating facts about land use in the great plains and intermountain west. You are -- you're INCREDIBLE, your blind ignorance, you are absolutely convinced I must be wrong and you know nothing at all about these locations. You've never been out there and driven a gravel road on a high plains butte and actually stopped and talked with these people? Plenty of the young people on reservations leave them already and that's a problem because it puts them beyond the support of their extended families and tribal social services and at prey to drugs and alcohol even worse than they are on the reservation. They want money to make their reservations liveable and they want jobs and income. These are the kinds of revenue streams a giant chunk of the great plains can produce. You are ignoring that to force my beliefs and my advocacy for indigenous rights down into a pigeon-hole so that you can feel smug and superiour with your own forced assimilationist beliefs that are in fact racist. And you know what? I've consistently advocated for sovereignty for the tribes, also known as let them make their own decisions with their own land. I'd be happy for them to be quite free to ignore me! But you miss that in your own rush to make your racism and assimilationism feel better.
Why are we going to 1492, do you have any knowledge of North West colonization whatsoever?Native Americans very much made fish ponds and the like stalwarts of their food sources in the east, I am sure it was not unique to them.
No, motherfucker. Let me tell you something -- this is a scientific field for me -- there is a difference between agriculture and cultivation. Fish ponds mimic this. A fish hatchery is direct control of the fish stock from eggs to produce mature fish outside of the regular run. That is aquaculture. A fish pond essentially creates a location for fish to concentrate and reproduce naturally. Now if there are self-contained populations in fish ponds they are more like a full-up fish farm. But in this case what the Northwest natives did was intensive harvesting of the salmon runs, which were a preexisting resource, by careful concentration of the salmon into harvestable locations along the river. This is fishing, it is not fish farming. There is a difference.

Where did you get your education? High school textbook...?
The modernity of the tasks you dictate to them are irrelevant, its the fact that you assume that they will want to be in these professions instead of anything else. Not only that, but you blatantly stated that they would be more likely to herd goats than grow wheat and corn like white people in Nebraska and Kansas. You have no logical reason to assume this other than steriotypes out of a 1950s western.
That is FALSE. Of course they are more likely to do so! THERE IS NO WATER LEFT. New people coming in who aren't invested in the old way of doing things like their grandfather did are almost certain to make changes to deal with the fact that the AQUIFERS ARE EMPTY. Jesus christ! Have you ever watched an old western? The natives are all shown as nomads in them -- this is quite different from their modern way of living. Grow up yourself, racist! You have come right in here and insulted me again and again in the worst fashion and tried to completely twist my words against me, but it isn't true! The simple fact is that ALL I WAS DOING WAS SUGGESTING HOW THE LAND COULD BE EFFECTIVELY WORKED FOR PROFIT, DIGNITY AND SELF-RESPECT AS A MATTER OF SCIENTIFIC AGRICULTURE.

That is now "dictating". The logic is -- this is all, scientifically, that the land is suited for! Don't you understand that? The aquifers have run out!

Image

That L stands for LONG TERM. That vicious blob across the American landscape is not going away. It's racist now, you dipshit, to suggest that people engage in what is scientifically the only long-term viable form of land use in a region!? I am the one with science on my side! the great plains aren't fit for large-scale agriculture in the region of the Great Sioux reservation and never were! You're ignoring the science to try and turn me into a racist and I AM NOT A GODDAMNED RACIST.
You mean where you once again assume native peoples will return to herding? Its okay though because they will be smart about it, but herders all the same!
Dipshit, don't you understand? THAT IS ALL THE LAND IS SUITED FOR. LITERALLY.

You are not argueing for indigeounous rights, you are arguing for some retarded return fantasy.
This is your racist projection!
You said it right there again with assumption that they would use the land any other way than anyone else as if they are naturally good at agriculture.
THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO USE IT. Are you ignorant? Have you ever been to these regions? I have! Have you ever read the scientific studies of soil and water depletion in the Great Plains? I have!
As if sustainable agriculture and speaking what is almost universally a secondary language (if they even know it at all) is some bench mark for having economic prosperity or cultural/linguistic/social integrity. That last bit is hilarious.
No, it isn't. It is very important to indigenous people and I would be happy to link you to many of their websites to that effect. You are a lying white dipshit who wants to find reasons to keep from giving them back large sections of land they are owed.
Would your little fantasy remain intact when all the young assimilated native americans sell their goat herds and head to NYC?
THEY DON'T WANT TO OR THEY ALREADY WOULD HAVE. The end result of their leaving the reservations has been drug abuse and poverty in urban areas. The reservations are now about obtaining sovereignty and rebuilding self-respect. I've seen the massive effort of outreach required in the indigenous population in Portland tired into the mire of drugs and alcohol and away from social support networks, compared to dignity and self-respect that has been achieved on the reservations which have been able to claw themselves out of poverty. You are DREAMING that people prefer assimilation to their cultural integrity and it is intensely racist because it is your inherent assumption that your white man's culture is BETTER when it ISN'T.
Or worse, start growing corn and wheat like their white oppressors because thats what makes economic sense?
IT DOESN'T MAKE SCIENTIFIC SENSE, and isn't even physically possible anymore in this region, how dare you enter this argument with NO KNOWLEDGE AT ALL of land use structures in the great plains?
Are they then uncle tontos for not accepting your vision of sustainable agriculture and speaking a near dead language thus being culturally/linguistically/socially bankrupt?
Racist projection, 100%. How long until you get banned for your racist projection? I can only hope..
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Where were the FISH FARMS in 1492? Oh right, I wasn't making the argument you claim at all and you're just strawmanning me.
I am not disagreeing with your overall point, but this is a bit of a non sequitir, isn't it? I mean, the basic scientific knowledge required to fish farm (in the modern sense of the word) wasn't available to pre-Columbian Amerindians. It's like saying they were better at raising livestock because they didn't have modern factory farms. Unless you are using "fish farm" in a far more generic sense. In any case, at least in the Amazon, there WERE tribes that had sophisticated, large-scale fisheries.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by Voyager989 »

Well, this seems to have slid pretty far from the opening part of the thread...

Duchess is somewhat prone to hyperbole, but that does not detract from the central point of her argument - that the native peoples of the United States are leaders in exploring sustainable production, on the balance (being human, there are of course people that disagree with this bent). English is something of a second language for her - what she was saying, I think, was that the peoples of the Pacific Northwest have fish farms, as part of what they believe to be a sustainable effort to ensure their fish catch remains stable - and that it was thus most disingenuous to claim that she wanted to revert Native Americans to a pre-sustained European contact state. She merely believes that land choices would be, say, something different than the mass crops of corn monoculture.
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by Patroklos »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I'm not desperately backtracking. I have stated a clear, and consistent argument the entire time. Herding goats? Oh, I don't know, but it could be because it's ecologically more suited to some areas? Goat meat is, you know, a premium item for billions of the world's population, you little sanctimonious argument loving idiot, so it's not precisely like I'm telling anyone to be poor. Sheep? The other half of that equation? Shit, I didn't know that people didn't pay large premiums for real wool clothing anymore... I guess I'm just a racist for suggesting that in some areas where they're more ecologically suited, Native Americans might herd sheep instead of cattle. GASP. I'm apparently condemning them to a life of backwards poverty out of racism by suggesting they might choose to do something which makes the Aussies a lot of money in land more suited for it than cattle herding ! I'm so evil.
There is nothing wrong with goat herding, the issue is that you intentionally conflated it with restoring "economic prosperity and cultural, linguistic and social integrity."

This is what you said:
For example, reestablishment of the Great Sioux Reservation as a Sovereign Protectorate of the United States would be a good first step in that direction, and one which would make sense environmentally as well due to the reversion of that area of the Great Plains into the "Great American Desert" where farming is increasingly unsustainable, but the land remains optimal for traditional low-intensity herding.
Note "traditional". I get that you are shoehorning in your very real environmental concern about drought and land usage into this issue but you prove you are falling into stereotypes again and again with comments like this:
They lost the land and watched foreigners come in and wreck it. They understand quite well the importance of managing it correctly now. That is all that aspect of the argument was.
I can just see you envisioning the lone warrior on a horse above a landfill letting a tear fall to the ground. That image is insulting and racist Duchess. There is no special relationship with the native american and the ground below him any more than there is for anyone else with the ground below them and in this case it’s the SAME GROUND. A white corn farmer or a Native American goat herder or visa versa, neither has any intrinsic closer connection to the land over the other. They have both been there for generations at this point.

If you want everyone to start herding goats that’s fine, but there is no special reason the Native Americans will be better at it than anyone else or would more readily chose it. Actually they may be worse than the current owners which is why I asked you what percentage of the reservation population is engaged in agriculture and more importantly sustainable agriculture different from that being used by the current users. I suspect that you will just be putting amateurs into a profession they don't currently perform but somehow think a magic connection with the land will make them better at . See Zimbabwe.

As of the last US census 78% of those identifying as native americans don't even live on reservations and 70% overall live in urban areas. Not exactly the best recruiting pool for the new agricultural labor you intend to usher in a new age of economic prosperity.

And while we are at it, why are we assuming goat herding is an avenue to economic prosperity? Note that sustainable and profitable are different things, and the Native Americans need something really profitable. Sure lots of the world eats goat, but can you point me to any area with a Western living standard that is supported by such? I can point to plenty of areas where corn and wheat and soy do so here in the US.

Here is a report on the world goat industry, you will note where the majority of it resides and the prosperity of the countries in question. You will note goat meat only made up 2% of meat inventories worldwide so local unrecorded consumption asside its hardly a "a premium item for billions of the world's population" as you contend. Surely a rare protein source for many, but because there is no other choice and its not like the mythical reservation in question is going to import it to Kenya.

You will also note there was no goat inventory at all in the US, meaning there is almost no market for it. This is your grand idea for economic prosperity? Producing a meat with no local demand except places you can't export it to and make up 2% of the market anyway? Maybe you can develop that market during the next half century, but it’s nothing to hang your hat on. I personally like goat, I am sure it will eventually be very popular here. I doubt you are buying futures in the industry right now though are you?

You have two scenarios here. Some local Native American farmers use goats in currently unoccupied land for subsistence, but that’s not "economic prosperity" now is it? Or they repurpose existing farmland to this end and destroy a currently economically viable enterprise to live on subsistence. The second may be the inevitable result of the drought you brought up anyway, but that still /= economic prosperity for anyone.

Goats are not going to produce what you want. I don't think that’s what you intend every Native American to do, but you specifically mentioned it as relevant to achieving your end goals.

Oh and you have been consistent, consistent on advocating forced deportation of people based on race. This needs to be remembered when you are throwing your reactionary racist accusations around.

HOW MANY RURAL INDIAN RESERVATIONS IN THE WEST HAVE YOU BEEN TO? HOW MANY? ANSWER ME RIGHT NOW, SHIT-LICKER. I'll plot out the course I drove to every single one that I've been to! Don't you even DARE go ahead and accuse me of this--I already goddamned preempted you on it and explained how it wasn't true, and here you go ignoring it and charging me to make yourself feel better, you racist Native-hating dipshit.
Ah, self righteous indignation and a false resumption of authority without any actual details to support said authority. Is this really what you are going to rest on, you having visited a few reservations? The "I have a black friend defense?"

I don't doubt the sincerity of your intentions but unless you are about to tell us you work for the Department of Indian Affairs, are a member of a tribal council, live on one of these reservations or maybe just took a few courses in college you are just an amateur commenter just like everyone else. Your statements have to stand on their own and so far they do not.

And I was pretty sure I was careful not to claim you were a racist, but rather your barely thought out and unrealistic plan and the assumptions underlining it are.
Indigenous people have a different culture than your's. Neither of us has a particular right to speak about it, but I know more about it than you do.
I certainly do have a right to speak about it as do you or anyone else, and your assumption of authority is baseless. I have not claimed any special knowledge or expertise and am only commenting on your idiotic return fantasy that is no different than that of Saxonite and stupid for all the same reasons.
No, I am not. I am stating facts about land use in the great plains and intermountain west. You are -- you're INCREDIBLE, your blind ignorance, you are absolutely convinced I must be wrong and you know nothing at all about these locations. You've never been out there and driven a gravel road on a high plains butte and actually stopped and talked with these people? Plenty of the young people on reservations leave them already and that's a problem because it puts them beyond the support of their extended families and tribal social services and at prey to drugs and alcohol even worse than they are on the reservation. They want money to make their reservations liveable and they want jobs and income. These are the kinds of revenue streams a giant chunk of the great plains can produce. You are ignoring that to force my beliefs and my advocacy for indigenous rights down into a pigeon-hole so that you can feel smug and superiour with your own forced assimilationist beliefs that are in fact racist. And you know what? I've consistently advocated for sovereignty for the tribes, also known as let them make their own decisions with their own land. I'd be happy for them to be quite free to ignore me! But you miss that in your own rush to make your racism and assimilationism feel better.
1.) I have been to the plains states many times, I don't believe that gives me any particular insight into these issues and I know it doesn't give you any as your whole goats=gold fiasco above indicates.

2.) Youth leaving reservations is as its heart no different than what all rural areas of the US are facing, only 16% of the population being rural. That’s far lower than than the Native American rural population but their percentage has been plummeting right alongside the rest of America. And they are leaving for the exact same reasons, lack of opportunity. Goat farming aside, you are not going to get those people to return or stay on the reservations any more than you are going to get black people to return or stay in rural southern communities based on that alone.

And while Native Americans probably do face a under layer of racism depending on where they go when they flee to urban areas its not going to be any different than any other minority. Or anyone from that matter leaving a rural setting for the big city.
No, motherfucker. Let me tell you something -- this is a scientific field for me -- there is a difference between agriculture and cultivation. Fish ponds mimic this. A fish hatchery is direct control of the fish stock from eggs to produce mature fish outside of the regular run. That is aquaculture. A fish pond essentially creates a location for fish to concentrate and reproduce naturally. Now if there are self-contained populations in fish ponds they are more like a full-up fish farm. But in this case what the Northwest natives did was intensive harvesting of the salmon runs, which were a preexisting resource, by careful concentration of the salmon into harvestable locations along the river. This is fishing, it is not fish farming. There is a difference.
And you don't get to retreat to some nitpicky irrelevances about why I didn't spend fifty lines parsing different levels and types of agriculture. You knew damn well what I was talking about and the simple fact is that your anecdotal reference to a few Native Americans practicing sustainable (but not necessarily profitable) agriculture does not reflect at all on the 5.8 million Native Americans in this country, at least 70% of which have no connection to agriculture in any of its forms whatsoever.

You are the one who highlighted this as some special road to prosperity. If you didn't mean that fine but sustainable agriculture is NOT going to lift reservations out of poverty by itself. It will probably end up contributing to any successful reservation economy to the same degree it does any rural state such as Kansas, who has at a glance has over two million non farm jobs in a population of just 2.9 million people.
That is FALSE. Of course they are more likely to do so! THERE IS NO WATER LEFT. New people coming in who aren't invested in the old way of doing things like their grandfather did are almost certain to make changes to deal with the fact that the AQUIFERS ARE EMPTY. Jesus christ! Have you ever watched an old western? The natives are all shown as nomads in them -- this is quite different from their modern way of living. Grow up yourself, racist! You have come right in here and insulted me again and again in the worst fashion and tried to completely twist my words against me, but it isn't true! The simple fact is that ALL I WAS DOING WAS SUGGESTING HOW THE LAND COULD BE EFFECTIVELY WORKED FOR PROFIT, DIGNITY AND SELF-RESPECT AS A MATTER OF SCIENTIFIC AGRICULTURE.


Yeah, and those changes are not to engage in agriculture. Just because you can raise goats doesn't mean it’s economically viable or something you are going to rely on to lift a population out of crushing poverty. And quite a bit of agriculture is wildly prosperous right now and the youth are STILL leaving as it is not the lifestyle they want profitable or not.

And no, as I quoted above you advocated them returning to TRADITIONAL agriculture processes, specifically herding, and somehow think that will magically not only uplift them out of poverty but also give them dignity and self respect (you as a white man knowing what that is, your standard used above not mine).

How about this Dutchess, why don't they abandon your rural pipe dream and do what the local economy supports and demands? Being a natural gas driller or a banker or a baker or a pharmacist is not white people stuff, its modern economy and money producing stuff. There is no reason that can't produce dignity and self respect and that can be done in NYC or Spokane or Del Rio or the reservation. If one of those things is goat herding go for it, again these things are dictated by economic reality or anything else you would describe as “traditional” as you did for herding so be it.
That is now "dictating". The logic is -- this is all, scientifically, that the land is suited for! Don't you understand that? The aquifers have run out!
If you can quote where I said otherwise you get a cookie. As I said even the current residents will probably have to adapt to this but that /= goat herding. Not for the ends you want and whatever they decide to switch to (if they decide to stay, which people the youth of all races right now are NOT) is probably going to be not be done via the urban transplants you want bring in once you are done ethnically cleansing your new territory.
That L stands for LONG TERM. That vicious blob across the American landscape is not going away. It's racist now, you dipshit, to suggest that people engage in what is scientifically the only long-term viable form of land use in a region!? I am the one with science on my side! the great plains aren't fit for large-scale agriculture in the region of the Great Sioux reservation and never were! You're ignoring the science to try and turn me into a racist and I AM NOT A GODDAMNED RACIST.
I don't think you are a racist, I think you are haplessly saying racist things because you are not examining the reality of your position.

And I highly doubt goat herding is the ONLY think suitable for that land. After all we already have deserts in the US and goat herding accounts for exactly 0% of the economy of Phoenix.

You could have saved yourself all this trouble if you had just refrained from saying "traditional" in your goat herding appeal. Knowing something about goat herding probably would have helped too.
Dipshit, don't you understand? THAT IS ALL THE LAND IS SUITED FOR. LITERALLY.

...

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO USE IT. Are you ignorant? Have you ever been to these regions? I have! Have you ever read the scientific studies of soil and water depletion in the Great Plains? I have!
Nope, but yes the current model is not sustainable. Your goal is economic prosperity, prove goat herding provides that.

And you already tipped your hand with "they watched the white man ruin their land and they won't let it happen again!" BS. Science is not your sole motivation for deciding how this will all go down.
This is your racist projection!


You use this word a lot but have yet to back it up. Please do.
No, it isn't. It is very important to indigenous people and I would be happy to link you to many of their websites to that effect. You are a lying white dipshit who wants to find reasons to keep from giving them back large sections of land they are owed.
1.) Oh please do point us to this indigenous population enjoying amazing economic prosperity following your process. Do they live in Zimbabwe?

2.) So now you are an actual racist complete with racist slurs? Congratulations? Surely not, you can clarify for us yes? Land is only an issue here if you intend to have them revert to a centuries dead economic model of yesteryear where these practices were viable (and even then not very) and required said land. Land and agriculture is not the arbiter of anything you might use to achieve actually desirable goals. Building schools, technology education, history lessons and museums, removing institutional barriers, food health and medical care and yes the introduction of modern economic models of all industries and sectors including sustainable farming are.

Giving a modern assimilated urban Native American youth a goat and plopping him in his pumas and graphic T-shirt into 40 acres of hard scrabble land with some white dudes burnt down house in the distance is just going to force him to buy a plane ticket back to Boston. That land does him NOTHING. A college scholarship on the other hand...
THEY DON'T WANT TO OR THEY ALREADY WOULD HAVE. The end result of their leaving the reservations has been drug abuse and poverty in urban areas. The reservations are now about obtaining sovereignty and rebuilding self-respect. I've seen the massive effort of outreach required in the indigenous population in Portland tired into the mire of drugs and alcohol and away from social support networks, compared to dignity and self-respect that has been achieved on the reservations which have been able to claw themselves out of poverty. You are DREAMING that people prefer assimilation to their cultural integrity and it is intensely racist because it is your inherent assumption that your white man's culture is BETTER when it ISN'T.
1.) Are you claiming Native Americans have some predisposition to drugs and poverty once they leave the reservation? Those problems are rampant on the reservations themselves and are a symptom of poverty not anything specific to Native Americans themselves. It’s the classic fish out of water story and ALL migrants are subject to it (minorities more so depending on where they go due to racism, not predisposition).

2.) I did not say anyone prefers assimilation, I said that the vast majority ARE assimilated. 78% don't even live on reservations. I think its abundantly clear assimilation works better than these crypto fascist pseudo states based on racism and ethnic cleansing you propose for the same reasons they are for black people as was discussed at length earlier in the thread. I, however, am not the source of the reality as it stands today.
IT DOESN'T MAKE SCIENTIFIC SENSE, and isn't even physically possible anymore in this region, how dare you enter this argument with NO KNOWLEDGE AT ALL of land use structures in the great plains?
Which doesn't mean they are not going to try regardless if it will only be possible for a short while and end up screwing them in the end. Sustainable agriculture other than what is currently practiced makes sense nearly EVERYWHERE in the long term but also very often in the short term, but how many places are actually doing it? How many places are just going to milk the land for what it’s worth and give the next generation a dried out cracked patch of desert?

But not the Native Americans. Oh no, they have a generational memory and are different from every other human on earth for reasons! They will squeeze blood from a stone and make the desert blossom with their nature power inherited from their ancestors who were in perfect commune with the earth and eschew all the values and expectations of the modern society most of them currently live with and cherish. Local school boards? Local Courts? Labor Day planning committee? BAH! All will be willingly abandoned to live at the whim of ethnically determined tribal leadership and the heavy hand of the Bureau of Indian Affairs and Indian Health Service. Sorry little Johnny (of course he will receive a proper name that has linguistic and cultural integrity and provide dignity to his unknown to him but surely dignity devoid life up until now), mom and dad need to quite their white man jobs under the white man's yoke and go herd goats "traditionally". I’m not sure if all the white people are gone yet but we will take care of that if not…[/sarcasm]

This is your world Dutchess, enjoy. That generational memory has served the Palestinians well surely.
Racist projection, 100%. How long until you get banned for your racist projection? I can only hope..
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I don't have any knowledge as to the doings of site moderation, but given the plethora of actually racism you have thrown out in this thread up to and including advocating ethnic cleansing you are probably in for a rude awakening.

Go ahead and quote all my racism though. Again, cookies are on the line :)
Simon_Jester
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by Simon_Jester »

Patroklos, if you can't bother to pay attention to what people are actually saying because you're too busy falsely asserting that their argument is based on an ignorant stereotype, are you really using your time efficiently when you write pages of text about the stereotyping this person doesn't do?
Patroklos wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:You seem to be MASSIVELY projecting on my apparent " racism and wishful thinking" that they would live the lives of their ancestors. You are arguing a massive strawman! LOOK at what I actually wrote
If you can show me anything other than a irrelevant fraction of the western indian reservation populations are 1.) engaging in agriculture period and are 2.) engaging in the agriculture you describe you can pretend you have a point. You obviously have some fantasy that these reservations are agricuture utopias and it nicely dovetails with the steriotypical depiction of one with nature Indians living in harmony with the land.
What sort of economic activity do you think people DO in rural areas, run fusion cuisine restaurants and nightclubs?

Hint: they farm, fish, log, and ranch. If they want to do much else, they head for suburbs and cities where those jobs actually exist. A steady stream of people from all rural areas do exactly that, but this hardly means that the "tribe" as an independent legal organization won't keep doing its farming/fishing/logging/ranching.
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Voyager989
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Re: Black Nationalism (Split from Zimmerman Trial)

Post by Voyager989 »

Is it stereotyping to assert that some Native Americans would prefer to live on reservations? If that's the case, then why are the rural reservation counties in the Plains the ones gaining population, as retirees move back to the land they feel a connection to?

If she's talking out of her ass on this, why is there a field called "indigenous environmental management science"?

Have you read the papers of the Intertribal Council on Utility Policy? Maybe, you know, they deserve a chance to make their own decisions? Maybe they'll make better decisions - it certainly seems from the work I've done at the department at university that Native scientists and peoples are over-represented for their size in the sustainable movement.

You can call her a racist, but if you do, I have no idea what you're talking about, and if you think that seizing on "goat farming" as a way to blow up her entire argument works... why do you have books like Sustainable Agriculture in the American Midwest: Lessons from the Past, Prospects for the Future, which talk about the importance of bringing in native knowledge and practices? If the Native Americans wish to engage in fracking, then such is their right, but it seems, by the agitation amongst the community, that you seem to think Duchess is some sort of neo-Luddite, when her point has more to do with restoring tribal government as per treaty and allowing the population to make their own decisions.

If you think culture and religious tradition has nothing to do with the reaction of a person to a situation, then there's no point in this discussion, at all, because nothing will convince you otherwise, and be dismissed as anecdotal proof.
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