Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepherd

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Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepherd

Post by mr friendly guy »

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-20/j ... es/4530854
Sea Shepherd is claiming victory after Japan temporarily suspended its annual whale hunt in the Southern Ocean.

On Wednesday the anti-whaling group claimed two of its boats, the Steve Irwin and the Bob Barker, were rammed by a Japanese ship in Australian Antarctic waters.

It said the attacks happened after they were ordered to leave the area by one of the boats in the Japanese whaling fleet.

It also claimed armed Japanese coastguards threw "concussion grenades" at activists on the ships.

Japan's fisheries agency has denied those reports, but confirmed that one of its factory ships, the Nisshin Maru, rammed two boats belonging to Sea Shepherd.

However, it said the clashes happened after activists came too close to a Japanese vessel which was refuelling.

Japan's Institute of Cetacean Research has announced it has stopped work for the time being because it is too difficult to refuel.

Bob Barker captain Peter Hammarstedt has told the ABC that it was the most dangerous confrontation he has ever experienced.

"The Nisshin Maru collided with my vessel several times and I think we were about 15 to 20 seconds away from being rolled over completely," he said.

Sea Shepherd founder and Steve Irwin captain Paul Watson believes the clashes are a sign of desperation.

"They're losing tens of millions of dollars," he said.

"The world is against them, they know that. Nobody believes for a moment that this is scientific research, it's a commercial operation and so they're being condemned worldwide and I think they're desperate and increasingly more aggressive."

Mr Watson says it is unlikely the whalers will resume their hunt this season.

"Not this season, the season is over in 18 days," he said.

"They couldn't go up north and refuel again. It's all over and done with I think for this year.

"I don't think they have killed more than a dozen whales in total, we don't know for sure, but they couldn't have killed more than that."

Sea Shepherd director and former Greens leader Bob Brown says the confrontation is the worst in the Southern Ocean in three years.

"It's extraordinarily dangerous and it's just a direct breach of international sea laws, international environmental laws, international territorial laws by the Japanese government," he said.

"Tokyo has taken over Australia's territorial waters. It's time the Australian Government reasserted itself. It should send naval vessels down there to reassert international law."

Opposition environment spokesman Greg Hunt agrees, saying the Federal Government is turning a blind eye to the conflict.

He says he has written to Environment Minister Tony Burke asking for a Customs vessel to be dispatched to the area at once.

"It is time that the Government realises that they are approaching extreme negligence and dispatches a Customs vessel," he said.

"Failure to do so is simply a failure to acknowledge the conflict, the hostility, and the taking of whales in Australian waters.

"Right now there's not just a terrible risk to the whales, but a real risk to life and limb."

However Mr Burke says the Government needs to be wary.

"People need to be very careful to make sure that we don't take action which actually undermines conservation in the Antarctic," he told ABC News Breakfast.

"We are a Government and need to solve and settle this in the court, not the car park."

He says he wants both sides of the conflict to show restraint.

"We always want to see safety at sea, these are reports that are the opposite," he said.

Defence Minister Stephen Smith told ABC News Breakfast this morning that the Government has no plans to send the Navy to the Southern Ocean to monitor the situation.

Australia's Maritime Safety Authority says it is investigating the latest incident.

In 2010 the Sea Shepherd ship Ady Gil sank after being hit by a whaling vessel.

Australia strongly opposes whaling and launched legal action challenging the basis of Japan's so-called "scientific hunt" in December 2010.

Japan claims it conducts vital scientific research using a loophole in an international ban on whaling, but makes no secret of the fact that the animals ultimately end up on dinner plates.
So once again a bunch of environmental fanatics do things for us which the Australian government is unwilling to do. Defend our territorial claims from Japanese whalers. But we got to keep that military white paper and keep an eye out for China. Yes sirree.

On another note I remember Greenpeace over the years criticise Sea Shepherd for its violent stance (keep in mind at this stage, we still don't know conclusively who rammed who). Which is quite ironic for the organisation which vandalised and destroyed the CSIRO's genetically modified crops. But I guess its easy for Greenpeace to do that. GM crops unlike Japanese whalers, don't fight back. :D
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Sea Shepherd's goal may be laudable, but getting between a tanker and a ship undergoing UNREP and causing a collision between them in a protected international sanctuary is the dumbest, most anti-environmental thing you can imagine, and they should be rotting in jail for doing it. Of course the RAN should also be balling up for a Cod War to drive the Japanese away, so I suppose the clowncar brigade will continue to run amok for lack of better options, until they succeed in actually causing a major oil spill in the Antarctic.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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mr friendly guy wrote:(keep in mind at this stage, we still don't know conclusively who rammed who)
The Pirates got in the way of the UNREP causing the collision, that much is obvious from the video of the incident.

These are the same Pirates who's leader has at least two INTERPOL RED notices issued for him.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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TimothyC wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:(keep in mind at this stage, we still don't know conclusively who rammed who)
The Pirates got in the way of the UNREP causing the collision, that much is obvious from the video of the incident.

These are the same Pirates who's leader has at least two INTERPOL RED notices issued for him.
Isn't this the same principle why when people chain themselves to trees we have to remove the people first, rather than clearing the land with the people still chained to it? Once it becomes clear that they can't remove Sea Shepherd without more ramming, the Japanese promptly left.

Secondly the video shows the ships when they were almost right on top of each other. I am no expert, but wouldn't you need to know how close the whaling ship was to refuelling before the Sea Shepherd got in the way. If it was almost there and at the metaphorical last minute Sea Shepherd got in the way, I can see that point because its very hard to stop at that stage. If Sea Shepherd was already in the way, and the whaling vessel decided to play chicken with Sea Shepherd and see who blinked first, thats a bit different no?

But since we are going along the lawbreaker path, I guess Sea Shepherd and Japanese whalers make perfect fits. The former has Interpol notices, while the latter hunt whales under the auspices of scientific research (which is allowed) when they are blatantly doing it for consumption. Not to mention of course the problem of territorial claims.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Sea Shepherd's goal may be laudable, but getting between a tanker and a ship undergoing UNREP and causing a collision between them in a protected international sanctuary is the dumbest, most anti-environmental thing you can imagine, and they should be rotting in jail for doing it. Of course the RAN should also be balling up for a Cod War to drive the Japanese away, so I suppose the clowncar brigade will continue to run amok for lack of better options, until they succeed in actually causing a major oil spill in the Antarctic.
Yeah, but until our government decides to match rhetoric with action it seems we are inadvertently going to rely on Sea Shepherd. I suspect as long as they continue to be successful (in the sense they decrease the number of whales culled) and lucky (they manage to do so without a major environmental disaster) they will continue to get support. So far they have "gotten away" with it for years.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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That video is almost entirely devoid of context. All we know is that at some point two ships were trying to occupy the same space, no sense at all of how that came about.

Interesting that the Japanese Coast Guard have officers aboard the whaling ships who are using their authority as members of the Coast Guard to warn the sea shepherd boats away from their ships. I wonder if there could be any legal ramifications to that should something go wrong.
Yeah, but until our government decides to match rhetoric with action it seems we are inadvertently going to rely on Sea Shepherd. I suspect as long as they continue to be successful (in the sense they decrease the number of whales culled) and lucky (they manage to do so without a major environmental disaster) they will continue to get support. So far they have "gotten away" with it for years.
Sea Shepherd will probably still get support unless its entirely clear they caused any problems. Like, vidoe from the bridge of the captain shouting full steam ahead, ram them sort of clear. They have an excellent publicity department, not just in regards to things like their TV show and advertising and the like, or spinning incidents like collisions as deliberate ramming, but in orchestrating stunts like buying ships off the Japanese government in secret and then use them against whalers. Very good at selling the plucky resourceful heroes subverting nasty government angle.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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mr friendly guy wrote:Isn't this the same principle why when people chain themselves to trees we have to remove the people first, rather than clearing the land with the people still chained to it? Once it becomes clear that they can't remove Sea Shepherd without more ramming, the Japanese promptly left.

Secondly the video shows the ships when they were almost right on top of each other. I am no expert, but wouldn't you need to know how close the whaling ship was to refuelling before the Sea Shepherd got in the way. If it was almost there and at the metaphorical last minute Sea Shepherd got in the way, I can see that point because its very hard to stop at that stage. If Sea Shepherd was already in the way, and the whaling vessel decided to play chicken with Sea Shepherd and see who blinked first, thats a bit different no?
The factory ship and the tanker were engaged in legitimate commerce, and had tried to warn off the pirates repeatedly, ergo, the disaster is the fault of the pirates.
mr friendly guy wrote:But since we are going along the lawbreaker path, I guess Sea Shepherd and Japanese whalers make perfect fits. The former has Interpol notices, while the latter hunt whales under the auspices of scientific research (which is allowed) when they are blatantly doing it for consumption. Not to mention of course the problem of territorial claims.
My problem is that while the whaling is utterly repulsive, it is taking place inside a legal framework. The actions of the pirates are outside of the international framework. Now, I also respect the rights of the Australians to protect their EEZ with the RAN and the Australian Customs Service, but the pirates are not members of either, even if they have flown the White Ensign illegally before.

Personally, I wouldn't bat an eye if the pirates had their ships sunk at anchor with limpet mines. I might even laugh were that to happen.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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So would I. There would be no better way to promote their cause or make the whalers look like dumb ass thugs than doing that.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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The problem is that our govt is utterly devoid of the will to take any action on this. Aren't these then brave libertarian souls taking on the roles that the govt is unwilling to efficiently do eh TimmyC?
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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TimothyC wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't bat an eye if the pirates had their ships sunk at anchor with limpet mines. I might even laugh were that to happen.
Oh DEARRRRRRRRRRRR.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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I'm somehow not sure this is going to play all that well in the Federal District Court in Washington, given the restraining order they're bragging of violating. Bets on where they'll set up shop after the contempt of court sanctions?
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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TimothyC wrote:My problem is that while the whaling is utterly repulsive, it is taking place inside a legal framework. The actions of the pirates are outside of the international framework. Now, I also respect the rights of the Australians to protect their EEZ with the RAN and the Australian Customs Service, but the pirates are not members of either, even if they have flown the White Ensign illegally before.

Personally, I wouldn't bat an eye if the pirates had their ships sunk at anchor with limpet mines. I might even laugh were that to happen.
Are you sure you want to go down this path? This type of reasoning can be used to justify almost anything. I mean, I can say, my problem is that while <insert US enemy here> is utterly repulsive, want they are doing in their country is sometimes taking place inside a legal framework. The actions of the US are outside the legal framework. Personally I wouldn't bat an eye if US military personnel had their ships sunk at anchor with mines. I might even laugh were that to happen.

If the Australian government actually did its job, then Sea Shepherd would be relegated to filming the whale wars rather than participating in it.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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I'm somehow not sure this is going to play all that well in the Federal District Court in Washington, given the restraining order they're bragging of violating. Bets on where they'll set up shop after the contempt of court sanctions?
I doubt it will matter that much. The federal distinct of Washington might not like it, but the people the restraining order refers to will just continue to avoid Washington. I'm also not entirely sure how pleased the federal district of Washington is or is not has any legal weight in Australian Antarctic waters.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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This is going to end badly considering both sides have escalated over the last years.

That being said, I don't have any sympathies for the whalers and hope they all get eaten by Moby Dick. Screw the Japanese Government for funding this BS.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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A quick summary of the last few rounds of the Whale Wars. I remember being told Japan once had the better of Sea Shepherd when they adjusted their tactics. However for the last 2-3 years its been the environmental fanatics who had the upper hand.

In 2011 Japan for the first time cut its hunt short.

In 2012 Sea Shepherd managed to reduce the Japanese quota to one third of their target. Japan of course blamed other factors besides Sea Shepherd, but you can't help but suspect they were a major contributor to the result.

And of course in this year, Japan looks to likely have caught only a handful of whales after the latest escapade.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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weemadando wrote:The problem is that our govt is utterly devoid of the will to take any action on this. Aren't these then brave libertarian souls taking on the roles that the govt is unwilling to efficiently do eh TimmyC?
Ah, but a libertarian would get a letter of marque first. By not having done so they fall into the realm of pirates.
mr friendly guy wrote:Are you sure you want to go down this path? This type of reasoning can be used to justify almost anything. I mean, I can say, my problem is that while <insert US enemy here> is utterly repulsive, want they are doing in their country is sometimes taking place inside a legal framework. The actions of the US are outside the legal framework. Personally I wouldn't bat an eye if US military personnel had their ships sunk at anchor with mines. I might even laugh were that to happen.
I'm against foreign intervention in general. Also, I'm rather consistent about there being one standard for human life, and another for things that don't involve human life. I also accept that the situation that you outlined is a possibility.
mr friendly guy wrote:If the Australian government actually did its job, then Sea Shepherd would be relegated to filming the whale wars rather than participating in it.
That's correct, and I would support Australian action against the Japanese whaling fleet.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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TimothyC wrote:
weemadando wrote:The problem is that our govt is utterly devoid of the will to take any action on this. Aren't these then brave libertarian souls taking on the roles that the govt is unwilling to efficiently do eh TimmyC?
Ah, but a libertarian would get a letter of marque first. By not having done so they fall into the realm of pirates.
That is just one of those unnecessary gubmint regs that destroy small business.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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I'm not sure you actually need a letter of marque anyway if your goal is to simply sink an armed enemy, and not take him as a prize.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

Post by Highlord Laan »

Every episode I see, I keep hoping the Shepards do something even more stupid than usual and get the ship sunk. I detest pirates or whatever the hell else one wants to call lawbreakers. That the Sea Shepards are getting publicity (and therefore backing) from Animal Planet is disgusting, and on the day they get their ship trashed, I hope it takes most of them with it into the deep.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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Highlord Laan wrote:Every episode I see, I keep hoping the Shepards do something even more stupid than usual and get the ship sunk. I detest pirates or whatever the hell else one wants to call lawbreakers. That the Sea Shepards are getting publicity (and therefore backing) from Animal Planet is disgusting, and on the day they get their ship trashed, I hope it takes most of them with it into the deep.
So you'd rather let the Japanese lawbreakers, in spirit if not in letter, harvest their endangered species?
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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Jub wrote:
Highlord Laan wrote:Every episode I see, I keep hoping the Shepards do something even more stupid than usual and get the ship sunk. I detest pirates or whatever the hell else one wants to call lawbreakers. That the Sea Shepards are getting publicity (and therefore backing) from Animal Planet is disgusting, and on the day they get their ship trashed, I hope it takes most of them with it into the deep.
So you'd rather let the Japanese lawbreakers, in spirit if not in letter, harvest their endangered species?
Has the law actually been violated? No? Than too bad. You want that to change? Start campaigning to get like-minded people together, raise funds, and start making waves within the legal structure. If you back what the Sea Shepards do -which is outright piracy and willful endangerment of those Japanese crews- than you'd dammed well better back any group that decides to take the same flavor of vigilante action against them.

Somehow, I don't see you or any other fan of the Shepards being that honest.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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Highlord Laan wrote:Has the law actually been violated? No? Than too bad.
For legalism to be unassailable, the laws must be unassailable. There are huge gulfs in political and financial power between the players in this particular drama, with obvious results on who can use loopholes and hide behind the law more effectively.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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Sea Shepherds are self-righteous assholes.

However, the Japanese are the same here and on top of that slaughter intelligent species for no good reason, which gives them a special place.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

Post by Captain Seafort »

TimothyC wrote:Personally, I wouldn't bat an eye if the pirates had their ships sunk at anchor with limpet mines. I might even laugh were that to happen.
If you said that in New Zealand you'd probably get an earful, and possibly a knuckle sandwich. Pulling that sort of stunt without the consent of the country the harbour's in is an act of war.

International waters is another matter, however, and if they get a torpedo in the ribs for trying to pull another stupid stunt that's their problem.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

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Seafort, Watson sunk a ship with limpet mines in harbour in Portugal in the 1980s and got away with it because it was "for the cause". I am not making this up. I also don't agree with TC, but because there's lots of young idealists onboard those boats who don't realize that Watson has done shit like that in the past. I also would really like to see the RAN put wooden ram bumpers on and mount potato guns on the deck and go start enforcing the law. The Antarctic Treaty does not address EEZ claims, so they have a legitimate ground in which to operate off the coast thereof.
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Re: Another year, another whale war. Victory for Sea shepher

Post by Borgholio »

I'm curious why some people consider Sea Shepherd to be a pirate vessel. Doesn't piracy involve illegally capturing a ship, cargo and / or crew? Simply bullying a ship or interfering with commercial operations doesn't really fall into any one of those categories.

Edit - well according to Wikipedia it also includes the use of criminal violence...so I guess in that regard they could be pirates.
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