Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disagree

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Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disagree

Post by bobalot »

Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disagree with

Republican presidential candidate Newt Gingrich is doubling down from Thursday’s Fox News debate on his vow to abolish federal courts if he disagreed with their decision.

According to The Hill, in a conference call with reporters, Gingrich indicated that it was in the president’s power as commander-in-chief to deem any Supreme Court ruling irrelevant if he or she in the White House disagreed.

The former House Speaker used the Supreme Court’s ruling against the Bush administration exceeding its constitutional authority in handling suspected terrorist detainees at Guantanamo Bay in 2008 as a basis for his extreme view.

“They just ignored it,” he said. “A commander-in-chief could simply issue instructions to ignore it, and say it’s null and void and I do not accept it because it infringes on my duties as commander-in-chief to protect the country.”

Gingrich also backed his position to subpoena judges or abolish courts entirely if he thought their final rulings were wrong.

The current GOP frontrunner’s position challenges the landmark Supreme Court case of Marbury v Madison in 1803, where America’s highest court would be granted the final word on whether acts by the president or Congress are constitutional.
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Because fuck checks and balances.

This guy is considered a conservative "intellectual"? Really?
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Grumman »

bobalot wrote:Because fuck checks and balances.
There's apparently at least one idiot who sees it the other way around - that this one dictator would be providing oversight to the Supreme Court.

For the sake of argument, let's assume it is possible for this approach to work out okay. It worked out for Lincoln with slavery, right?

Why the hell would you pick the only House Speaker to ever be disciplined for ethical wrongdoing? The saying about foxes guarding the henhouse comes to mind.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by The Romulan Republic »

This almost erases any misgivings I had about voting for Obama. Flawed he may be, but he hasn't openly declared his intent to ignore and abolish courts. This is all be a declaration from Newt that he will rule America as a dictator. I dare anyone to look at this and say their is no difference between the two choices. The Democrats should make this a major campaign issue. And if Newt wins and follows through on this, I will cease to recognize the US government as legitimate.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

And the Obama-bots eagerly line-up to do their solemn once-every-four-years degrading sexual duties.

Gringrich is not going to get elected. If he does, this will not pass, not unless it is a form of political rule which the entire ruling class backs. Individual politicians are insects, and cannot redirect history at will. Gingrich will never have the personal authority to do anything about this, this is just red-meat for right-wing whackjobs, and something for MSNBC to show to liberals so as to give them a reason to vote for their betters.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Broomstick »

It also worked out well for Andrew Jackson and the Indian Relocation a.k.a. "Trail of Tears". There is certainly precedent for the PotUS ignoring the SCotUS when he wants to. Of course, that does not make it OK.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:And the Obama-bots eagerly line-up to do their solemn once-every-four-years degrading sexual duties.

Gringrich is not going to get elected. If he does, this will not pass, not unless it is a form of political rule which the entire ruling class backs. Individual politicians are insects, and cannot redirect history at will. Gingrich will never have the personal authority to do anything about this, this is just red-meat for right-wing whackjobs, and something for MSNBC to show to liberals so as to give them a reason to vote for their betters.
Yeah, right. I'm a "bot" because I might find voting for Obama preferable to letting this shitbag in. :wanker: Ah, I remember the days when this degrading portrayal of Obama supporters as mindless followers was something I saw mainly from the Right.

And let me tell you something you pseudo-sentient sack of shit: Gingrich may not be able to do this on his own, but the Executive branch already has too much power thanks to the War on Terror, and just because he can't do it alone is no reason to make it easier for something like this to happen, or vote in someone who would do this given the chance. Dictatorships can and do come into existence. Democratic leaders can and do seize more power than is their right. Are you so utterly ignorant of history as to deny this?

Anyway, enjoy feeling real smug and superior about your protest vote, and I hope that's a comfort too you if the last shreds of the Constitution get flushed down the toilet.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:And the Obama-bots eagerly line-up to do their solemn once-every-four-years degrading sexual duties.

Gringrich is not going to get elected. If he does, this will not pass, not unless it is a form of political rule which the entire ruling class backs. Individual politicians are insects, and cannot redirect history at will. Gingrich will never have the personal authority to do anything about this, this is just red-meat for right-wing whackjobs, and something for MSNBC to show to liberals so as to give them a reason to vote for their betters.
Yeah, right. I'm a "bot" because I might find voting for Obama preferable to letting this shitbag in. :wanker: Ah, I remember the days when this degrading portrayal of Obama supporters as mindless followers was something I saw mainly from the Right.
Sorry, but you know what they say: when the shoe fits.

I'm sorry but if you take this drivel from Gingrich as a serious policy possibility, than the outcomes of America's laughingstock electoral system hardly matters. As I said, he's running his mouth, or we have a serious problem because the ruling class generally wants what he is saying (in which case elections will not control political outcomes, which they basically never do in any meaningful way, especially in the recent past).

My politics does not consist of scare-tactics regarding far-right mouthpieces who this time three years ago were sliding by on the bona fides of truck-driver talk-radio fans and bad historical fiction. Gingrich is a joke. His character or political philosophies as an individual is about...one of the least important variables regarding American welfare as a society in the next decade. Fact.

As for the creative insults, I've posted on this board for nearly ten years. I am not exactly awestruck by the SDN-branded shit-talk you picked up. Maybe you could try refuting...I dunno, even one of my statements or claims?
The Romulan Republic wrote:And let me tell you something you pseudo-sentient sack of shit:
Okay hardman.
The Romulan Republic wrote:Gingrich may not be able to do this on his own, but the Executive branch already has too much power thanks to the War on Terror,
Yeah and Obama and the Democrats have been dragged unwilling, screaming, in total tacit cooperation with these policies, right? Oh wait....

You know, it is telling what there is no gridlock or media drama over, and actually is bipartisanship. Things like bailouts, rich people tax breaks (in relative terms; Dems and Reps differ only in how far they think it is practical to proceed in subverting the gains of progressive income taxation), military procurement, and rolling back civil liberties. The entire ruling class wants these things, so you don't get to influence them by voting among the preselected candidates the intelligentsia and donor class produces.
The Romulan Republic wrote:and just because he can't do it alone is no reason to make it easier for something like this to happen, or vote in someone who would do this given the chance. Dictatorships can and do come into existence. Democratic leaders can and do seize more power than is their right. Are you so utterly ignorant of history as to deny this?
No, I am a history graduate and quite a close student of fascism, left-wing politics, social change, and revolution. I am quite certain when I say there is no evidence whatsoever here to suggest that there is a real move one can speak of toward an American Machtergreifung.
The Romulan Republic wrote:Anyway, enjoy feeling real smug and superior about your protest vote, and I hope that's a comfort too you if the last shreds of the Constitution get flushed down the toilet.
I am not going to vote. If it changed anything, they would make it illegal (and they sometimes do).

Oh, and the Constitution was invented to restrain democratization and political participation by normal people (Madison's exact words in letters being that the aim was "divide and conquer"; by the elite against the multitude), was ratified contrary to the majority of the electorate's desire, and was accompanied by a massive move to the right and quashing of ultimately basic civil liberties by the Constitution's primary political supporters (Federalists and the Alien and Sedition Acts).

The ratification of the U.S. Constitution is more like the Thermidor of the American Revolution. Sorry.

This does not mean there should be no mass popular political challenge to the establishment's consistent erosion of the meager gains and procedural protections Americans may typically enjoy. But I don't think there's some past America, or the Constitution abstractly, etc. to 'save'. That's just romanticism.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by UnderAGreySky »

I recently read a quote that makes a lot of sense: Gingrich says stuff that stupid people think smart people say. Just one more cartoon served up by the GOP circus.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Lord Zentei »

So identifying the lesser of two evils makes one a "bot" now? Well, how about that.

Somehow I get the impression from this thread that Illuminatus Primus is an accelerationist. Not cool.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by UnderAGreySky »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I'm sorry but if you take this drivel from Gingrich as a serious policy possibility, than the outcomes of America's laughingstock electoral system hardly matters. As I said, he's running his mouth, or we have a serious problem because the ruling class generally wants what he is saying (in which case elections will not control political outcomes, which they basically never do in any meaningful way, especially in the recent past).
Could I have your phone number? Because the next time I want to figure what shit coming out of which candidates mouth is going to be put forth as actual policy and what can be dismissed as "running his mouth", I'll call you.

I mean, it doesn't really matter what he says he would do I guess, not like he's running to be commander-in-chief of the world's most powerful country or anything. It's not like if he did turn out to be a psychopath - someone who wants to be "civilizing humanity and recivilizing all Americans," - he would have power in his hands or anything.

:roll:
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Simon_Jester »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I'm sorry but if you take this drivel from Gingrich as a serious policy possibility, than the outcomes of America's laughingstock electoral system hardly matters. As I said, he's running his mouth, or we have a serious problem because the ruling class generally wants what he is saying (in which case elections will not control political outcomes, which they basically never do in any meaningful way, especially in the recent past).

My politics does not consist of scare-tactics regarding far-right mouthpieces who this time three years ago were sliding by on the bona fides of truck-driver talk-radio fans and bad historical fiction. Gingrich is a joke. His character or political philosophies as an individual is about...one of the least important variables regarding American welfare as a society in the next decade. Fact.
What makes you think anyone else's does? RR's point boils down to "Fuck, Gingrich actually makes Obama look good."

Now, if we wax conspiratorial, maybe that's the whole reason Gingrich is even running- his corporate masters need someone to make Obama look good by comparison, good cop bad cop sheeple sheeple sheeple why won't they all shut up and appoint me leader of the revolution waaaaah!

And yet Gingrich does, in point of fact, make Obama look good. Maybe in their hearts they're about identical, with the only difference being that Obama panders to a more pro-rights and pro-justice crowd than Gingrich. That doesn't mean the comparison can't be made.
As for the creative insults, I've posted on this board for nearly ten years. I am not exactly awestruck by the SDN-branded shit-talk you picked up. Maybe you could try refuting...I dunno, even one of my statements or claims?
What statements? What claims?

Your basic claims are, as I see:
1) Gingrich is probably unelectable.
2) Even if Gingrich were elected, he would have no power to do anything except the consensus opinion of the ruling class.
3) Because elections never settle anything.
4) Therefore, anything Gingrich says or does personally is irrelevant, and should not distract us from our bitter condemnation of Obama for being another brick in the wall.

That seems to be what you've said here separate from your generic political opinions, which you've expressed on this board dozens of times and will no doubt express dozens more.

Now, (1) is largely irrefutable since it depends so heavily on variables we can't measure. Many people have predicted that the 2012 Republican candidate will lose almost by default because they will come out looking worse than Obama. Which is the point- the rhetoric coming out of the 2012 Republican presidential campaign makes all the Republican contenders look worse than Obama.

(2) is unfalsifiable nonsense, mostly because neither you nor anyone else can accurately diagnose the full ambitions of the "ruling class," and indeed the very definition of the "ruling class" seems subject to change. Do they want to abolish government agencies responsible for protecting the masses? Or do they simply want to subjugate and co-opt those agencies, preserving them more or less intact? Do they want to enact economic policies that will leave us a corporate oligarchy quickly, or slowly? Do they want to lock down the American internet, or not, or are they indifferent to the question?

So what would Gingrich do, should he be elected? Who can say? The same election that put him in office would likely fill Congress with a firm majority of people beholden to the Tea Party and the Koch wing of the American oligarchy. This might have different consequences from filling Congress with a firm majority of people beholden to Ohio center-right Democrats and the Buffett-Soros wing of the American oligarchy.

(3) strikes me as indistinguishable from paranoid ravings; I'm reluctant to touch it because I know you won't be convinced, while no one else needs to be.

(4) strikes me as being a waste of time- I could vote for Obama over Gingrich (should those be the choices on the ballot) while still doing other things politically. I could, say, vote for Obama but give all my donations to local candidates whose political goals are in line with mine. Voting is not the total of my political involvement, you see.
I am not going to vote. If it changed anything, they would make it illegal (and they sometimes do).
As far as American politicians are concerned, how does this make you different from a babbling illiterate, an 'idiot' in the Greek sense, who can't be bothered to remember there's a political system at all?

I'm sure you have other mechanisms for expressing your political opinions. But the fact that you reject voting as one of them because it won't give you what you want strikes me as profoundly short-sighted, the self-destructive act of a small and spiteful person.
Oh, and the Constitution was invented to restrain democratization and political participation by normal people (Madison's exact words in letters being that the aim was "divide and conquer"; by the elite against the multitude), was ratified contrary to the majority of the electorate's desire, and was accompanied by a massive move to the right and quashing of ultimately basic civil liberties by the Constitution's primary political supporters (Federalists and the Alien and Sedition Acts).

The ratification of the U.S. Constitution is more like the Thermidor of the American Revolution. Sorry.

This does not mean there should be no mass popular political challenge to the establishment's consistent erosion of the meager gains and procedural protections Americans may typically enjoy. But I don't think there's some past America, or the Constitution abstractly, etc. to 'save'. That's just romanticism.
Why do we care whether you think there is one or not? I didn't say there was. I just happen to have a lingering fondness for things like a right to privacy and a political ruling class which is responsive, if not responsible, because they have some level of honest care and concern about the people they govern.

We did have that, now and then over the past two hundred years. Politicians who saw it to their advantage to improve the lot of the common man, or put an end to genuine injustices, or whose personal sense of honor and ethics remained more or less functional after achieving high office.

I don't expect to get that by voting for Obama, not really... but damned if I can see how not voting will help.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Well it worked for Andrew Jackson, didn't work so well for FDR...
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Zinegata »

Ironically, my country is undergoing a crisis of sorts with the President and the Supreme Court locking horns (albeit in our case, it is very difficult to support a Supreme Court that was appointed by the corrupt former administration, has committed blatant acts of plagiarism, and has shown blatant favoritism towards the corrupt officials who appointed them).

But instead of just ignoring any Supreme Court ruling just because he feels like it, our President instead went through the contitutional process of impeaching the head of the Supreme Court; so that he can be tried before the Senate for corruption, favoritism, and being generally incompetent.

Really, Gingrich is making our Third World fracas seem civilized and high-minded by comparison.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Simon_Jester »

This shouldn't surprise you.

A lot of Third World nations have seen their standards improve over the years. Back in 1960 the mere fact that the ruler was a native and not a foreigner was often enough to keep him in power after colonialism, but fifty years on the acceptance of that has declined.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Zinegata »

Simon_Jester wrote:This shouldn't surprise you.

A lot of Third World nations have seen their standards improve over the years. Back in 1960 the mere fact that the ruler was a native and not a foreigner was often enough to keep him in power after colonialism, but fifty years on the acceptance of that has declined.
Yeah, but critics of our President accuse him of trying to usurp the powers of the Supreme Court, destroy the system of checks and balances, and become a new dictator. (All crazy claims, but still...)

I think I'll show those critics what Gingrich is promising to do to the US Supreme Court in comparison.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Zinegata, are you also from the Philippines?

If so, though I don't have much love for GMA, I'm still glad her Supreme Court cronies fucked the Cojuangcos in regards to the Hacienda Luisita case. Aquino's part of a family of rich farmer-killing landowners (though I guess this is a hobby of all the rich families in our country?), so I don't think our dear beloved leader is any better than the rest of them. I hope the Aquinos and the Arroyos take their sweet ass time strangulating each other. :P
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Zinegata »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Zinegata, are you also from the Philippines?

If so, though I don't have much love for GMA, I'm still glad her Supreme Court cronies fucked the Cojuangcos in regards to the Hacienda Luisita case. Aquino's part of a family of rich farmer-killing landowners (though I guess this is a hobby of all the rich families in our country?), so I don't think our dear beloved leader is any better than the rest of them. I hope the Aquinos and the Arroyos take their sweet ass time strangulating each other. :P
Yep, from the Philippines.

Personally, I don't really think that P-Noy wants to impeach Corona over Hacienda Luisita. Note that even P-Noy's own appointees voted in favor of giving the hacienda to the farmers. P-Noy's beef is primarily against Corona - because the Chief Justice was a midnight appointee, showed blatant favoritism (his spokesperson insisted that the Arroyos were free to leave the country because of the TRO, when it was later proven that the TRO was in fact not yet binding because the Arroyos had yet to fulfill all of the conditions stated herein), and has a variety of corruption and incompetence charges hanging over him. Hell, his wife is still holding government positions that arguably violate various conflict of interest clauses.

Moreover, the fact that Corona keeps insisting that he is the Supreme Court - as opposed to being just a member - and unilaterally ordering all courts to take an unauthorized holiday (delaying the Maguindanao Massacre trials) makes it impossible for the public to show any sympathy towards him. He's trying to be Louis XIV in a democracy, where it is not wise to say (in effect) "I am the Supreme Court!".

Though we really should stop, as we're veering away from topic and the point I was making is that the GMA cronies are insane for accusing P-noy of trying to usurp the Supreme Court when he actually bothered with impeachment proceedings. They should look to Gingrinch for someone who really wants to ignore the Supreme Court and provoke and a constitutional crisis.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Well, yeah, Corona is a shit and so's Arroyo. But I wouldn't be surprised if PNoy ends up being a total ass just like his predecessor though. They're all fancy shmancy high-talking well-to-do monied scum.

(I still can't get over Kris being all weepy and going all "oh we survived martian law, we'll survive this ordeal of being wealthy but losing this land to some farmers we had our goons kill")

As for Gingrich, well, he's campaigning and making noise. For all everyone knows, if and when he gets in power, he might deflate and shrivel up into a prune after the opposition kicks his ass if he tries anything. At least, if American checks and balances are still intact. ;)
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Simon_Jester »

It happened to Obama, so at least there's a precedent, but I wouldn't bet on it. American politics hates America too much for that.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by UnderAGreySky »

As for Gingrich, well, he's campaigning and making noise. For all everyone knows, if and when he gets in power, he might deflate and shrivel up into a prune after the opposition kicks his ass if he tries anything. At least, if American checks and balances are still intact.
After the PATRIOT act, SOPA and other abortions (har har) like DOMA and DMCA, I'm not sure the US can afford taking chances. As much as his opponents are clowns, Obama is not a shoe-in for next term just yet, and I'd rather not see a psychopath as head of state. The US tried that with a buffoon in Bush The Younger, and he surrounded himself with the likes of Cheney and.... the rest is history.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Well,I guess it's all up to the American people. :)
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Dominus Atheos »

UnderAGreySky wrote: After the PATRIOT act,
Passed under a Democratic Senate and with a majority of Dem votes in the House.
SOPA
If it passes, it will be under a Democrat president and Senate.
and other abortions (har har) like DOMA and DMCA,
Both signed into law by Bill Clinton, a Democrat.
I'm not sure the US can afford taking chances.
What chances? The chance that the Oval Office will be occupied by a guy with an (R) next to his name instead of a (D)? It's not like it will make any differences in how the country is run.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Broomstick »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Well,I guess it's all up to the American people. :)
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Dominus Atheos wrote:What chances? The chance that the Oval Office will be occupied by a guy with an (R) next to his name instead of a (D)? It's not like it will make any differences in how the country is run.
No, but it might make a difference on whether or not some asinine war is started elsewhere on faked evidence... which might well matter to non-Americans.

I expect my country to by fucked up for the next 5-10 years at least, but wouldn't it be better if the shit is mostly confined within our own borders? One positive with Obama is that he's winding down the wars and bringing troops home at this point, as opposed to a prior administration seemingly content with unending conflicts.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Julhelm »

Doesn't the democrats have a worse track record when it comes to involving the US in useless wars? Wilson and Johnson spring to mind. Tonkin Gulf incidident never happened and Wilson sure worked hard to get the US into WW1.
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Re: Gingrich: I’ll ‘ignore’ any Supreme Court ruling I disag

Post by Broomstick »

Recent history, dude. Who got us into the last bullshit war on trumped up evidence, the Repubs or the Dems? Bush started wars. Obama is actually winding them down. Which is better overall?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
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