Thank you Bradley Manning

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Shroom Man 777
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Thank you Bradley Manning

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Salon wrote:From a CNN report on why the Iraqi Government rejected the Obama administration’s conditions for keeping U.S. troops in Iraq beyond the 2011 deadline:

U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and other top brass have repeatedly said any deal to keep U.S. troops in Iraq beyond the withdrawal deadline would require a guarantee of legal protection for American soldiers.

But the Iraqis refused to agree to that, opening up the prospect of Americans being tried in Iraqi courts and subjected to Iraqi punishment.

The negotiations were strained following WikiLeaks’ release of a diplomatic cable that alleged Iraqi civilians, including children, were killed in a 2006 raid by American troops rather than in an airstrike as the U.S. military initially reported.

That description from CNN of the cable’s contents is, unsurprisingly, diluted to the point of obfuscation. That cable was released by WikiLeaks in May, 2011, and, as McClatchy put it at the time, “provides evidence that U.S. troops executed at least 10 Iraqi civilians, including a woman in her 70s and a 5-month-old infant, then called in an airstrike to destroy the evidence, during a controversial 2006 incident in the central Iraqi town of Ishaqi.” The U.S. then lied and claimed the civilians were killed by the airstrike. Although this incident had been previously documented by the U.N. special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, the high-profile release of the cable by WikiLeaks generated substantial attention (and disgust) in Iraq, which made it politically unpalatable for the Iraqi government to grant the legal immunity the Obama adminstration was seeking. Indeed, it was widely reported at the time the cable was released that it made it much more difficult for Iraq to allow U.S. troops to remain beyond the deadline under any conditions.

In other words, whoever leaked that cable cast light on a heinous American war crime and, by doing so, likely played some significant role in thwarting an agreement between the Obama and Maliki governments to keep U.S. troops in Iraq and thus helped end this stage of the Iraq war (h/t Trevor Timm). Moreover, whoever leaked these cables — as even virulent WikiLeaks critic Bill Keller repeatedly acknowledged — likely played some significant in helping spark the Arab Spring protests by documenting just how deeply corrupt those U.S.-supported kleptocrats were. And in general, whoever leaked those cables has done more to publicize the corrupt, illegal and deceitful acts of the world’s most powerful factions — and to educate the world about how they behave — than all “watchdog” media outlets combined (indeed, the amount of news reports on a wide array of topics featuring WikiLeaks cables as the primary source is staggering). In sum, whoever leaked those cables is responsible for one of the most consequential, beneficial and noble acts of this generation.

And yet (or more accurately: therefore) the person accused of accomplishing all of this, Bradley Manning, has been imprisoned for more than a year without trial, and, if convicted, is almost certain to remain in prison for many more years (with the possibility, albeit unlikely, of death, and as the Obama administration continues to block an unmonitored visit by the U.N. official investigating what had been the inhumane conditions of his detention). If one believes the authenticity of the chat logs produced by Wired, Manning’s goal in leaking those cables — “hopefully worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms . . . i want people to see the truth… regardless of who they are… because without information, you cannot make informed decisions as a public” – have been fulfilled beyond what must have been his wildest dreams. Assuming the truth of those chat logs, he was motivated precisely by seeing cables of the sort that detailed this civilian slaughter and subsequent cover-up in Iraq, and the extreme levels of theft and oppression by Arab dictators, and the desire to have the world know about it. Meanwhile, those responsible for the Iraq War, and who suppressed freedom and democracy in the Middle East by propping up those tyrants, and who committed a slew of other illegal and deeply corrupt acts, continue to prosper and wield substantial power.

History is filled with examples of those who most bravely challenged and subverted corrupted power and who sought reforms being rewarded with prison or worse, at the hands of those whose bad actions they exposed. If Bradley Manning did leak these cables, his imprisonment is a prime example of that inverted justice.
He leaked so that we could live.

If his actions led to US soldiers being withdrawed from Iraq, or the Iraqi government not agreeing to US soldiers to stay in their country longer, then truly he did a great thing for us all. The fact that he's being indefinitely imprisoned and possibly tortured only makes his sacrifice all the more significant.

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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Fuckin A. If he did one good thing - and I think he did many - there it is.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Hail to this man. May he be remembered for helping prevent even greater suffering, if only a little.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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While I do agree that he did a good thing (as anybody who has seen my posts knows) I think the article is a bit bad in as it does not establish if Iraq would be better off without US soldiers keeping the peace. From all accounts, Iraqi forces are worth squat and do an abysmal job.

That being said, this does not detract from the benefits his actions have brought us.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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As Thanas noted, its not clear whether Iraq is better off without the residual force that the U.S. wanted to keep. Further, even if you really want to give credit to Wikileaks for the Arab Spring movement, (I personally think the food shortages had more to do with it) if you read some of the other postings on SDN of late you'll see that the "Arab Spring" events won't clearly leave their populations any better off either. Bradley Manning was incredibly irresponsible and whatever "Good" "He caused" is likely outweighed by all the bad because of his lack of discrimination in the material released.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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TheHammer wrote:As Thanas noted, its not clear whether Iraq is better off without the residual force that the U.S. wanted to keep. Further, even if you really want to give credit to Wikileaks for the Arab Spring movement, (I personally think the food shortages had more to do with it) if you read some of the other postings on SDN of late you'll see that the "Arab Spring" events won't clearly leave their populations any better off either. Bradley Manning was incredibly irresponsible and whatever "Good" "He caused" is likely outweighed by all the bad because of his lack of discrimination in the material released.
Yes he was irresponsible.

And clearly he needs to be treated like Hitler for what he did.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Assuming he even did it.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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PeZook wrote:
TheHammer wrote:As Thanas noted, its not clear whether Iraq is better off without the residual force that the U.S. wanted to keep. Further, even if you really want to give credit to Wikileaks for the Arab Spring movement, (I personally think the food shortages had more to do with it) if you read some of the other postings on SDN of late you'll see that the "Arab Spring" events won't clearly leave their populations any better off either. Bradley Manning was incredibly irresponsible and whatever "Good" "He caused" is likely outweighed by all the bad because of his lack of discrimination in the material released.
Yes he was irresponsible.

And clearly he needs to be treated like Hitler for what he did.
He should only be so lucky!

Seriously, hyperbole aside, Manning is no hero. He should be, at best, an example of the wrong way to go about whistle blowing to future whistle blowers. He doesn't deserve to be mistreated, but he also doesn't deserve the praise he is often given.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Uh, the leaks didn't make the Iraqis demand the ability to try criminal within their borders. They insisted on that basic right themselves, and the Americans refused.

Did Manning somehow influence this?
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Stark wrote:Uh, the leaks didn't make the Iraqis demand the ability to try criminal within their borders. They insisted on that basic right themselves, and the Americans refused.

Did Manning somehow influence this?
No. Even the incident referenced in the article referred to "MNF" forces, not American, and MNF is in-house USG code for "not-American."


People keep acting as if Manning was a whistleblower. He wasn't. He acted as if he came along a empty cryptovault, ran in and gathered as much material as he could and stuffed it down his pants, and then handed the material over to random people on the Internets without specifically caring about the particulars of the material.


Assuming he even did it.
Boy, it sure is a good thing USG classified systems keep audit records of everything done on their systems, huh? Otherwise it would be really hard to determine who was copy-pasting a shitload of share drives on Siprnet onto OSDs. :lol:
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Lonestar wrote:People keep acting as if Manning was a whistleblower. He wasn't. He acted as if he came along a empty cryptovault, ran in and gathered as much material as he could and stuffed it down his pants, and then handed the material over to random people on the Internets without specifically caring about the particulars of the material.
Why do you continue to make that claim?
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Thanas wrote:
Why do you continue to make that claim?

Because it's an accurate one?

"Whistleblower" implies he sought out specific information to release it. Which is NOT what he did. He copied as much classified shit as he could get away with and handed it out, regardless of the actual content.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Lonestar wrote:No. Even the incident referenced in the article referred to "MNF" forces, not American, and MNF is in-house USG code for "not-American."
Regardless of who was invovled, Manning isn't responsible for things describe in the stuff he leaked. He didn't have anything to do with the failure of agreement on the issue in the article, for instance. The only thing he did was make it not secret.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Lonestar wrote:Boy, it sure is a good thing USG classified systems keep audit records of everything done on their systems, huh? Otherwise it would be really hard to determine who was copy-pasting a shitload of share drives on Siprnet onto OSDs. :lol:
Gee, if they had such an open and shut case, you'd think they'd have gone and, you know, prosecuted him at some point in the last year.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Losonti Tokash wrote:
Gee, if they had such an open and shut case, you'd think they'd have gone and, you know, prosecuted him at some point in the last year.
Did you know there was a guy on my ship who was caught smuggling an illegal in his truck across the border in San Diego? He was in the Brig for 18 months before they started his actual prosecution. And it was probably WAAAAY more "open and shut" then the Manning case.


In other words, this is in keeping entirely with what I know of the US DoD judicial system.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Hmm, yes, the negotiations were already ongoing before Manning and Wikileaks made the details not-secret and thus pissed off a whole lot of people and made things look even worse in public. :)
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:Hmm, yes, the negotiations were already ongoing before Manning and Wikileaks made the details not-secret and thus pissed off a whole lot of people and made things look even worse in public. :)

Yeah I mean it isn't like Bush signed an agreement to remove all combat troops from Iraq by the end of 2011 in 2008. :P
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

Post by Flagg »

Lonestar wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:Hmm, yes, the negotiations were already ongoing before Manning and Wikileaks made the details not-secret and thus pissed off a whole lot of people and made things look even worse in public. :)

Yeah I mean it isn't like Bush signed an agreement to remove all combat troops from Iraq by the end of 2011 in 2008. :P

That would mean something if the Senate had approved it.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Flagg wrote:
That would mean something if the Senate had approved it.

It means quite a bit to me personally, because within a few months of the agreement we were flying people out to decomission sites there. So from the contractor war profiteer contractor perspective, we were acting under instructions to assume it was legit almost immediately. :P
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Lonestar wrote:
Flagg wrote:
That would mean something if the Senate had approved it.

It means quite a bit to me personally, because within a few months of the agreement we were flying people out to decomission sites there. So from the contractor war profiteer contractor perspective, we were acting under instructions to assume it was legit almost immediately. :P
I'm just pointing out that it's not actually you know, legally binding on our end.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Lonestar wrote:
Thanas wrote:
Why do you continue to make that claim?

Because it's an accurate one?

"Whistleblower" implies he sought out specific information to release it. Which is NOT what he did. He copied as much classified shit as he could get away with and handed it out, regardless of the actual content.
No, it actually does not imply that. If I get wind of something illegal and then release a ton of files of which I am sure they have something to do with it or contain other illegal stuff I am still a whistleblower. It is not as if I need to make an inventory of the stuff I want to release. If my boss has a briefcase with a hundred documents in it and I am sure 1 contains the illegal proof, am I not a whistleblower if I snatch the briefcase and turn it over in full?
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

Post by TheHammer »

Thanas wrote:
Lonestar wrote:
Thanas wrote:
Why do you continue to make that claim?

Because it's an accurate one?

"Whistleblower" implies he sought out specific information to release it. Which is NOT what he did. He copied as much classified shit as he could get away with and handed it out, regardless of the actual content.
No, it actually does not imply that. If I get wind of something illegal and then release a ton of files of which I am sure they have something to do with it or contain other illegal stuff I am still a whistleblower. It is not as if I need to make an inventory of the stuff I want to release. If my boss has a briefcase with a hundred documents in it and I am sure 1 contains the illegal proof, am I not a whistleblower if I snatch the briefcase and turn it over in full?
You would still be a whistle blower, however while the actual whistle blowing information might be protected under various laws (depending on where you are and what you do), releasing other material may still constitute a crime. Which is why it would be wise to be discerning in what you release...
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Ironically, since the US would treat him as a criminal anyway, the motive to be careful to avoid prosecution is weakened.

The whole concept of 'whistleblowing' in America is distinct from most Western countries, so Thanas might not know how it's treated in that country.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Considering the number of militia groups in Iraq which vowed to resume full scale war against the government and US if US presence was extended, like, about all of them, it is very hard to believe any agreement would have ever been reached. Even if one was reached on paper it would have never been ratified in Iraq.
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Re: Thank you Bradley Manning

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Thanas wrote:
Lonestar wrote: Because it's an accurate one?

"Whistleblower" implies he sought out specific information to release it. Which is NOT what he did. He copied as much classified shit as he could get away with and handed it out, regardless of the actual content.
No, it actually does not imply that. If I get wind of something illegal and then release a ton of files of which I am sure they have something to do with it or contain other illegal stuff I am still a whistleblower. It is not as if I need to make an inventory of the stuff I want to release. If my boss has a briefcase with a hundred documents in it and I am sure 1 contains the illegal proof, am I not a whistleblower if I snatch the briefcase and turn it over in full?
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That is what the Federal government defines whistle blowing to cover (and since in reference to this thread Manning was employed by a Federal Agency...) the important thing to note is that the disclosure should be, in order to be considered whistleblowing, items reasonably believed to fall under the six indicated categories. Both the Manning case, and your example of turning the entire briefcase out for someone else to look through DO NOT fall within those categories. The reason, and it shouldn't take long to realize this, is that you have non-selectively released material including much which, a reasonable person should suppose, does NOT indicate improper or illegal activity. Take a better example more relevant to Manning's case, if you knew (or reasonably believed) your boss was doing something illegal or improper so you snatched the whole hard drive off of his computer and turned it over your actions are not covered. Again this is because you should know (or be reasonably assumed to know) that much of the data in question (if not the majority of it) will not be relevant to the purported misconduct...but you released it anyway.

The difference is one between data dumping and deliberate whistleblowing, the former is simply invasion of privacy or theft which happens to turn up something improper the later is a protected activity.
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