Germany tries to sell tanks to Saudi-Arabia

[Thanas]

aka Merkel's latest blunder.

Spiegel

Germany is prepared to deliver modern "Leopard" battle tanks to Saudi Arabia in a reversal of its decades-old policy not to supply heavy weapons to the authoritarian kingdom.




According to information obtained by SPIEGEL, the German security council, in which Chancellor Angela Merkel, Defense Minster Thomas de Maizière, and Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle are represented, last week approved the deal in principle. The Saudis are interested in purchasing more than 200 units of the most modern Leopard version, the Type 2A7+.

German defense companies including Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, Rheinmetall and many supply firms, are hoping for a deal worth billions of dollars because the Saudis are aiming to buy brand-new tanks rather than used ones.

Riyadh had initially negotiated with Spain where the company Santa Bárbara, part of a US engineering group, makes Leopard tanks under license. But now it appears that a large number of the tanks to be purchased will be made in Germany.

In recent decades, various German governments had turned down Saudi Arabian requests to buy Leopard tanks by arguing that such deals might endanger Israel's security. But Israel's high-tech military no longer sees Saudi tank units as a threat.

Saudi Military Helped Put Down Protests in Bahrain

Nevertheless, the kingdom has not been peaceable of late. In Bahrain, Saudi forces helped to crush protests during the Arab Spring.

The "Leopard" is one of many weapons systems being exported by Germany, and the government is helping manufacturers to sell their wares around the world. India, for example, plans to buy 126 fighter jets worth €11 billion, and German ministers have been banging the drum for Eurofighters in meetings with Indian officials.

Even highly indebted Greece likes to buy weapons made in Germany, such as submarines or "Leopard" tanks. Athens has also been pondering buying Eurofighter fighter jets.

Some 80,000 people are employed in the German defense sector. The Bundeswehr, Germany's armed forces, has also been involved in the international arms trade through the sale of used tanks.

According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), the main buyers of German weapons systems in the years 2006 through 2010 were:

Greece (with a share of 15 percent)

South Africa (11 percent)

Turkey (10 percent)

South Korea (nine percent)

Malaysia (seven percent)

SIPRI said that Germany advanced from fifth to third place among the biggest arms sellers between 1998 and 2009, even though a previous center-left government pledged in 2000 to pursue a "restrictive'" policy on exporting defense technology.

German exports have in fact doubled in the past 10 years and Germany's share of the world market rose to around 11 percent in the period between 2006 and 2010. Many of those deals had been approved by Chancellor Gerhard Schröder's government before it was voted out of office in 2005. Only the US (30 percent) and the Russians (23 percent) export more.

As predicted, all parties in Parliament, including the reigning conservatives, are pushing into high riot mode right now.

Berlin 'Playing With Fire' in Saudi Tank Deal
Everyone wants one: A Leopard 2 battle tank during exercises.


The German government's approval of the sale of "Leopard" tanks to Saudi Arabia has outraged opposition parties in Berlin, and the ruling conservatives aren't happy about it either. Commentators say the deal undermines principles of German foreign policy and could exacerbate the crisis in the Arab region.
Info

German opposition parties are running riot against the government's reported decision to allow the sale of up to 200 of the most modern "Leopard" battle tanks to Saudi Arabia.

The co-leader of the Green Party, Claudia Roth, said the decision, first reported in SPIEGEL, was a "blatant" breach of German guidelines banning the export of weapons to states in crisis regions and with questionable human rights records. She said Saudi Arabia flouted democracy and human rights, supported terrorism and had helped to crush recent anti-government protests in Bahrain.

Andrea Nahles, the general secretary of the center-left Social Democrats, said supplying battle tanks to Saudi Arabia flew in the face of the government's pledge to pursue a value-oriented foreign policy. The head of the Left Party, Klaus Ernst, said the government was operating under the motto: "The most deadly tanks for the worst oppressors."

More worrying for Chancellor Angela Merkel, the move has also been criticized by members of her own party, the conservative Christian Democrats. Reuters reported that a majority of the leadership of the party's parliamentary group had argued against such a deal at a meeting on Monday evening.

The senior conservatives had included the chairman of the parliamentary foreign affairs committee, Ruprecht Polenz, and the president of the Bundestag, Norbert Lammert. They mainly cited human rights abuses by Saudi Arabia. According to Reuters, Lammert had argued that Saudi forces used tanks to quell unrest in Bahrain just a few weeks ago.

So far, the government has declined to confirm the export approval, taken by the government's security council last week. Government spokesman Steffen Seibert said on Monday the decision was subject to the "usual and necessary secrecy" regarded export approvals.

For decades, Germany has refused to sell battle tanks to Saudi Arabia and other Arab states because of its historical obligation towards Israel and its policy of prohibiting the sale of weapons to crisis regions.

So far, Israel has made no public comment on the deal, suggesting that it has no fundamental objections, German commentators say.

Most editorials in the German media are critical of the deal on Tuesday, but some point out that a supply of powerful battle tanks may help Saudi Arabia preserve a balance of power with Iran, which is pushing for dominance in the region. But commentators also concede that if Iran gets hold of nuclear weapons, even the most formidable battle tanks in the Saudi arsenal will prove irrelevant.

Conservative Die Welt writes:

"Of course it's not the best time for a large tank deal with Saudi Arabia given the Arab rebellion. After all, Riyadh is one of the worst suppressive regimes in the region and has been helping to crush the uprising in Bahrain. But the outrage among opposition parties in Berlin is a little short-sighted. After all, Leopard 2 tanks are pretty unsuited to fighting rebels, unless one is trying to destroy whole cities like Moammar Gadhafi. Besides, Riyadh needs the tanks for quite a different reason: to counter Iran's attempts at domination in the Gulf region.

"For years Germany and its allies tried in vain to stop the Iranians from trying to build a nuclear bomb. Now that an Iranian bomb is becoming increasingly likely, a rearming of Saudi Arabia is only logical to prevent the balance of power in the Gulf from completely tipping in Tehran's favor."

"Last week, Saudi Prince Turki al-Faisal made clear that Saudi Arabia would seek a nuclear option if Tehran had one. It will only be possible to prevent such a nuclear arms race if one helps the Saudis to place a weighty deterrent on the scales in terms of conventional weapons."

Left-wing Berliner Zeitung writes:

"The German government's actions in the tank deal with Saudi Arabia are pitiful. The same foreign minister who refused to back a UN mandate (German abstained in the UN Security Council on establishing a no-fly zone over Libya in March) because he was against removing Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi by force has now silently voted in favor of selling 200 Leopard 2 battle tanks to Saudi Arabia."

"The guidelines of the German government on arms exports are threefold: the export of weapons is to be undertaken restrictively; it must not go to crisis regions and must not be aimed at boosting domestic employment."

"Either Saudi Arabia is no longer in the crisis region of the Middle East under the German government's definition, or Angela Merkel, Guido Westerwelle and Economics Minister Philipp Rösler no longer feel bound by these guidelines. Instead of openly standing by their decision, the center-right coalition government has fled into secrecy. Such a policy isn't value-bound, it's nefarious."

Left-wing Die Tageszeitung writes:

"The center-right government is operating geostrategically and in tandem with the United States. Chancellor Merkel mistrusts the Arab Spring as much as other Western leaders. The foreign policy and economic consequences of democratization in the Arab world -- and especially of its failure -- are too uncertain."

"The supply of a fighting machine geared to waging assymetiric war against rebels and partistans follows the logic of arming Saudi Arabia in order to keep 'evil' Iran in check. But this is playing with fire because the absolutist monarchy is based on Salafism. This form of Islam is particularly intolerant -- not just towards Shiites."

So I guess a better headline would be "Money trumps morality" and "Merkel, after pissing of nearly everybody else, is now trying to enrage whatever is left of her support".

[aerius]

Well that's one way to goose your export numbers, sell weapons to terrorists! Can't be letting the US monopolize that market.

On a more serious note, how much longer till your government goes down if they keep screwing up like this?

[Serafina]

That actually surprises me. At least a bit.

Is there any way to challenge this in court?

[CJvR]

If there is a law banning exports to suspect states perhaps. But if not selling to the Saudis have simply been a foreign policy issue then changing that policy is entirely a goverment decission.

I dont think it is much of an issue really, tanks are a poor means of crowd controll unless you plan on leveling cities. Electronic surveilance and internet monitoring technology along with lighter weapons and riot gear are far worse on the repression front.

[Serafina]

Tanks provide a weapon that can not be overcome or driven back by a mob or riot. The same is not necessarily true for riot gear. It also carries a significant intimidation factor.
They can also be used to put down uprisings by part of the military, as long as you ensure that the tank troops themselves are loyal.

[Block]

Saudi Arabia already has 300+ M1A*'s (some form of upgraded M1A1) it's not like this is a big deal one way or the other, the only difference would be who they buy from.

[K. A. Pital]

Saudi Arabia - everybody's beloved theocracy. That's heartwarming, once again displays that in arms dealing, morals are somewhere there on place 36.

[tim31]

Saudi Arabia already has 300+ M1A*'s (some form of upgraded M1A1) it's not like this is a big deal one way or the other, the only difference would be who they buy from.

You've completely missed the point of the principle of the matter.

[K. A. Pital]

Indeed, nobody (well, nobody with half a brain and a cursory knowledge of US foreign policy in the past and present century) expects from the USA being scurpulous or moral at all in their arms deals or even in their entire political actions on the international stage.

However, people have a bit higher standards for Europe - perhaps unfairly, but still.

[Sarevok]

However, people have a bit higher standards for Europe - perhaps unfairly, but still.

Meh, this is hardly surprising.

Saudi Arabia has been a major buyer of European arms for a long time. Even back before they become a major region ally for the west they were using French AMX tanks.

[open_sketchbook]

All governments are at best morally ambivalent organizations who value a quick buck over even the pretense of ethical behaviour.

News at 11.

[K. A. Pital]

All governments are at best morally ambivalent organizations who value a quick buck over even the pretense of ethical behaviour. News at 11.

Governments are supposed to reflect the will of their subjects, too, and I doubt secular Germany is reeking with joy over the sale of weapons by their government to a theocracy (which isn't a "morally ambivalent" organization). So people have a right to be a bit upset.

Don't vote for Merkel next time, duh.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

All governments are at best morally ambivalent organizations who value a quick buck over even the pretense of ethical behaviour. News at 11.

Governments are supposed to reflect the will of their subjects, too, and I doubt secular Germany is reeking with joy over the sale of weapons by their government to a theocracy (which isn't a "morally ambivalent" organization). So people have a right to be a bit upset.

Don't vote for Merkel next time, duh.

I doubt it'd make a difference. Really. The previous few Chancellors had some really interesting foreign policies, what with Schroder even ending up on Gazpom's board...

[K. A. Pital]

Maybe not. But as a radical left-winger and a no less radical feminist, I must say that if I were to make a point about electing someone who clearly won't support theocracies in any fashion, someone who clearly (I hope so) won't end up on GAZPROM's board of thieves directors next to Mr. Medvedev... hmm... I'd go to the ballot box sure enough.

Once I get to Germany, I'll make sure to point any friends to Sahra Wagenknecht. I mean, damn... She wins my Europe's Hottest Communist competition. I'd change Merkel for her any day I could.


And no, I won't post Palpatinian pictures of Merkel for comparison, duh. That would solve three problems at once: no theocracy deals, no Gazprom deals, and MUCH hotter political news in the morning. And I love my political news hot as coffee

[Thanas]

Sarah Wagenknecht is an idiotic airhead who glorifies the DDR and has spoken out in support for the Stasi and its methods of oppression. She also has written papers in support for Stalinism which were so extreme that even the PDS (ex SED) distanced themselves from her and called her views unacceptable to the left.

Is that somebody you want to lead Germany, Stas?

[[R_H]]

Looks like the KSA won't be buying any T-90s.

Sarah Wagenknecht is an idiotic airhead who glorifies the DDR and has spoken out in support for the Stasi. and its methods of oppression Is that somebody you want to lead Germany, Stas?

Isn't that about par for course for Die Linke?

Did the sale of Leo2s (still ongoing) to Turkey also cause as much uproar as this deal? Afterall, Turkey can also be seen as a state in a "crisis region" with a "questionable human rights record".

Tanks provide a weapon that can not be overcome or driven back by a mob or riot. The same is not necessarily true for riot gear. It also carries a significant intimidation factor.
They can also be used to put down uprisings by part of the military, as long as you ensure that the tank troops themselves are loyal.

More like "are very difficult for mob of rioters to drive back/over come".

[K. A. Pital]

Sarah Wagenknecht is an idiotic airhead who glorifies the DDR and has spoken out in support for the Stasi and its methods of oppression. She also has written papers in support for Stalinism which were so extreme that even the PDS (ex SED) distanced themselves from her and called her views unacceptable to the left.

Is that somebody you want to lead Germany, Stas?

Worry not, I just want her glorious looks on my TV. Also, "idiotic airhead" who glorifies the DDR? I think your rage against that particular representative of the German far left is a bit misplaced here, you know. So when has she said a bare word in defence of the Stasi? Maybe you're mistaking her with Christel Wegner, who openly said you need another Stasi? Her comments seem to indicate otherwise:

Wir wollen nicht die DDR oder den sogenannten real-existierenden Sozialismus zurück. = We don't want the DDR or "real socialism" back

Ich kann nicht ungeschehen machen, was ein Bautzen-Häftling erlitten hat. Ich bedaure, dass es diese Repression gab, sie steht in völligem Kontrast zu den sozialistischen Idealen. = I can't undo what Bautzen did, I regret these repressions happened, they are a total contrast to socialist ideals

WELT ONLINE: Sie haben früher einmal gesagt, dass Sie das politische System der DDR für besser halten als das der BRD. Glauben Sie das immer noch?
Wagenknecht: Das muss lange her sein. Aber die Frage ist heute auch irrelevant, denn die DDR ist seit 20 Jahren tot. Natürlich würde ich nicht sagen, dass ausgerechnet das repressive politische System der DDR besser war. Das Bildungssystem bot mehr Chancengleichheit, die Gesundheitsversorgung hing nicht vom Geldbeutel ab. Solche Aussagen würde ich unterschreiben.
WELT ONLINE: War die DDR Ihrer Ansicht nach ein Unrechtsstaat?
Wagenknecht: Sie war sicherlich kein Rechtsstaat und es gab erhebliches Unrecht. Aber der Begriff „Unrechtsstaat" kommt aus der Debatte über den Hitler-Faschismus. Alles, was darauf hinausläuft, die DDR auf eine Ebene mit der mörderischen Nazi-Diktatur zu stellen, ist Geschichtsklitterung. = okay, that's too long, she basically says that she doesn't hold the opinion of the DDR being "better" than the BRD, mentions that some elements were positive (greater equality in healthcare and education) and that you can't equate the DDR with Nazi Germany (which is something anyone with half a brain would understand)

Wirkliche Demokratie gibt es im Kapitalismus so wenig wie in der DDR. Dafür ist die Macht der Wirtschaftslobbys viel zu groß. = there's no more real democracy in capitalism than there was in the DDR. The power of the capitalist lobby is too great.

Ich habe Anfang der Neunziger einfach bestimmte Sachen weggelassen. Ich habe nie gesagt: Die Bespitzelung der Leute durch die Stasi war sinnvoll. Ich habe einfach nichts zur Stasi gesagt. = okay, she said nothing about Stasi

Wait, maybe she wrote her papers on Stalinism in the late-1989 early 1990s, and these were about the years when she earnestly supported the DDR - like many communists who come from a typical post-Stalin nation (the DDR)? I mean, we have lots of former Stalinists here in Russian democratic socialist and even anarchist organizations - I'm not ready to throw any tar their way, these people are products of the system. On the other hand, you judge a politician by his prior and immature views. By that logic, Mussolini is a Marxist and Marx himself is a German nationalist because he once said that it would be cool if "advanced and revolutionary" German nations went eastwards and destroyed "reactionary" nations. And as of late, S.W. also said that victims of Stalinism deserve commemoration, but clearly Nazis, who obviously also fell victim to both Stalinist penal system and the persecution in the West part of Germany, can't be commemorated this way. Which is pretty much my position as well, I cringe when people commemorate SS veterans as "anti-communist fighters" and bullshit like that makes me cry.

She had the guts to say she changed her positions and to remain a communist nonetheless. And she wasn't fucking a Stasi stooge - you know, unlike Gesine Lötzsch, who is a hardcore Stasi fan until this day, invited top Stasi folks to everywhere she could and yet seems to lead the Left party without any problems whatsoever. Or claiming you need another Stasi in Germany.

Isn't that about par for course for Die Linke?

From what I've seen of the Linke, Sarah is just about the least objectionable communist in the whole party, and maybe whole of Germany at that. Saying that there was something positive in the DDR is what many left-wingers, even non-communists, in Germany did (and if there was nothing positive, Ostalgie wouldn't exist at all; you can't claim with a straight face that a government cannot have had any positive policies whatsoever).

Many of Die Linke went to far greater lengths in their Stasi ties. Thanas just jumps at the issue - jump at the red flag shouting "DDR, Stasi!" - without really even looking at the politician in question. If she's so fucking stupid and all former Stalinists are stupid people without any critical capabilities - why is her book "Wahnsinn mit Methode - Finanzcrash und Weltwirtschaft" not that "stupid" in my view, even if clearly biased? And am I also stupid and idiotic then? Political positions determine intellect? Red = stupid?

Did the sale of Leo2s (still ongoing) to Turkey also cause as much uproar as this deal? Afterall, Turkey can also be seen as a state in a "crisis region" with a "questionable human rights record".

It rightfully should. Turkey's human rights record is simply horrendous (maybe not that horrendous for the Middle East, but it's miles below the First World), their war against the Kurds which has been going on for ages led to dozens of thousands of deaths, putting it firmly in the same place as Syria and the like. Too bad people don't think about all these things when Turkey is mentioned. They just think "oooh, oranges, also, textiles".

[Skgoa]

Stas, I see your Sarah and raise you one Katja Kipping. She has even been sent to the Bundestag from my district.

[K. A. Pital]

Stas, I see your Sarah and raise you one Katja Kipping. She has even been sent to the Bundestag from my district.

Damn you! But yes, she's awesome. I'm not sure why so many hot women in Germany. Anybody who talks about Germany being the land of ugly women will be smacked.

I can't wonder though, why no outrage about this in Parliament:
http://arabia2day.com/reports/report-cl ... epression/
Selling tanks to KSA is a far more obvious blunder than selling them to nobody cares-places, like Turkey. The opposition should definetely capitalize on the above news as well. Police of an avidly anti-imperialist, Euro-friendly and peaceful nation trains the troops of one of the most repressive Dark Age culturally dictatorships on Earth? Gold gem for those who were waiting for "proof" that Germany is also a part of an imperialistic circlejerk system with the USA and Britain when it comes to the Middle East.

[[R_H]]

Another article, from Defense News

German Politicians Angered Over Saudi Tank Sale

BERLIN - German opposition parties and even some ruling coalition members were up in arms July 5 over reports that the government wants to overturn its export rules and sell hundreds of tanks to Saudi Arabia.

This followed news reports that Saudi Arabia is about to buy 200 Leopard-2s, Germany's main battle tank, which is also produced under license in Spain.

Germany, which has declined for more than 20 years to sell such heavy weapons to Saudi Arabia because of concerns over human rights and fears for Israel's security, refused to confirm the report.

But the Suddeutsche Zeitung (SZ) paper reported the deal is already done and that both Israel and the U.S. signed off before the final decision was made June 27.

"Everyone will understand that the Israeli government is in agreement. Otherwise, there would have been an official protest," the paper quoted a government source as saying.

Germany has refused to comment on matters discussed confidentially within the federal security council, which determines export guidelines. The SZ report is the first indirect confirmation of such a deal.

Opposition leaders have demanded a parliamentary debate.

"The government must explain itself at some stage," Green parliamentary leader Juergen Trittin told ARD television.

"Such decisions cannot be taken at a time when people are fighting for democracy in the Arab world," he added. "And now one's trying to say such heavy weapons can simply be sold to dictators - and that is the case in Saudi Arabia."

"The government's readiness to sell 200 modern German tanks at a time of tension in the near East and the Arab peninsula denotes a frightening lack of judgment," the Social Democrat parliamentary deputy leader Gernot Erler told the Welt newspaper's online service.

Such a policy demonstrates that Chancellor Angela Merkel and Foreign Minister Guido Westewelle "only pay lip service to supporting democratic movements in the Arab world," he added.

Selling tanks to Saudi Arabia at a time when that country has sent armored vehicles to help put down a peaceful protest movement in neighboring Bahrain is "a slap in the face for freedom movements in the whole region," Erler added.

The tiny but strategic Gulf archipelago, joined by a causeway to Saudi Arabia, has experienced repeated bouts of unrest between its Shiite majority population and its Saudi-backed Sunni ruling family.

Even in Merkel's government ranks, news of the possible deal has ruffled feathers.

Ruprecht Polenz, a Christian Democrat who heads parliament's foreign affairs commission, suggested such a sale would go against all previous rules about exporting weapons to countries in turmoil. Even the parliament's Christian Democrat president, Norbert Lammert, expressed concern about the timing of such a deal given the crackdown in Bahrain, newspapers reported.

The Saudi order for Leopard-2A7+ - a 55 to 62-ton tank equipped with a 120 mm gun - could be worth billions of euros to the companies Kraus-Maffei Wegmann and Rheinmetall, Der Spiegel magazine reported.

The Saudi kingdom has been in talks with the Spanish subsidiary of General Dynamics about buying their version of the Leopard tank, but the major portion of the order would land with the Germans, the magazine suggested.

The Saudis are also in talks with U.S. companies for $60 billion (41 billion euros) worth of defense equipment that would become the largest U.S. contract ever.

Die Welt newspaper, in an editorial, defended the government's bid to sell the tanks saying Saudi Arabia needed to be able to defend itself against Iran.

[Thanas]

okay, that's too long, she basically says that she doesn't hold the opinion of the DDR being "better" than the BRD, mentions that some elements were positive (greater equality in healthcare and education) and that you can't equate the DDR with Nazi Germany (which is something anyone with half a brain would understand)

No, she is avoiding answering the question. The nuances might escape you, but she is weaseling out of the question.
Meanwhile, she thinks Stalinism is the realistic consequence of leninism:

Nicht zu leugnen ist, daß Stalins Politik - in ihrer Ausrichtung, ihren Zielen und wohl auch in ihrer Herangehensweise - als prinzipientreue Fortführung der Leninschen gelten kann. (Der "stalinistische" Staatsaufbau existierte in seinen Grundzügen ohnehin bereits vor Stalins Machtantritt.) Welche Handlungsspielräume die Situation im damaligen Rußland bot, muß angesichts der konkret historischen Bedingungen untersucht werden. Eine solche Analyse wird vermutlich zu dem Schluß gelangen, daß weder in Bucharins Lösungsansatz noch in dem Trotzkis (um nur zwei prägnante Beispiele zu nennen) eine realisierbare Alternative zur Stalinschen Linie vorlag.

Ich habe Anfang der Neunziger einfach bestimmte Sachen weggelassen. Ich habe nie gesagt: Die Bespitzelung der Leute durch die Stasi war sinnvoll. Ich habe einfach nichts zur Stasi gesagt. = okay, she said nothing about Stasi

And up to this day, she refuses to really answer that question. She really is a mirror of Nazi apologetism - it was not the system, no it was just a few bad apples, it was not oppression, no it was a necessary evil and defence against other stuff. The immense security apparatus? A "regrettable by-product". She makes me sick.

On the other hand, you judge a politician by his prior and immature views.

Views she has shown no inclination of changing in her actions? Yes.

By that logic, Mussolini is a Marxist and Marx himself is a German nationalist because he once said that it would be cool if "advanced and revolutionary" German nations went eastwards and destroyed "reactionary" nations. And as of late, S.W. also said that victims of Stalinism deserve commemoration, but clearly Nazis, who obviously also fell victim to both Stalinist penal system and the persecution in the West part of Germany, can't be commemorated this way. Which is pretty much my position as well, I cringe when people commemorate SS veterans as "anti-communist fighters" and bullshit like that makes me cry.

Keep in mind though that the memorial was not about Nazis at all and she still voted against it. Basically she said that it is not okay to build a memorial if a group is remembered there as well which also was responsible for bad things. Which is of course BS because then we might not build memorials to victims of nazism because it would also include really bad people as well.

Also, from just a year ago:

Ob die Mauer unter den damaligen Bedingungen vermeidbar war, mögen Historiker entscheiden. Fakt ist, dass darüber nicht primär in Berlin, sondern vor allem in Moskau und Washington entschieden wurde

Righto.

She also is amazingly hypocritical - she was pictured eating lobster immediately after she lambasted other people for living in luxury. And then she lent herself the camera and illegally and without permission deleted the pictures of her..

She is for the state nationalizing industries and is married to a company owner herself. Who earns dozens of millions by selling fake pictures. Who has been convicted of Madoff-like behaviour and served over three years in prison. This apparently is not a problem for her.

[Tanasinn]

However, people have a bit higher standards for Europe - perhaps unfairly, but still.

Indeed. This entire incident in Libya only warranted high-and-mighty European attention for one reason: oil. France, that paragon of enlightenment, has been kicking Africa in the balls for decades. Ask the Central African Republic, for example.

Western Europe probably treats its citizens better than the U.S. government, but their behavior towards the third world isn't really much different.

On the other hand, good on the German public for being outraged at their government selling weapons to murdering theist vermin! At least they actually care.

[K. A. Pital]

She is for the state nationalizing industries and is married to a company owner herself. Who earns dozens of millions by selling fake pictures. Who has been convicted of Madoff-like behaviour and served over three years in prison. This apparently is not a problem for her.

Well, you got me here. That's crazy, being married to a capitalist and a fraudster while saying capitalism belongs to the dust bin of history. That's like being Krupp's wife and posing as a communist, I can't even imagine that. And that's also idiotic for your career. Still I must say her book about the recent crisis was not just dumb-dumb-dumb, as far as books written by politicians go. I do like to read books written by politicos, and from what I read, her intellectual capabilities aren't that bad. It is probably her morals - which just aren't there. By the way, she's way too right-wing (and yeah, dictatorial as well) for me - in her books she basically repeats some of the typical social-democratic arguments of the recent years that the financial sector is (inherently) parasitic, but the "real" production sector (manufacturing) is the "real economy" and Germany should protect that, etc. So basically, save proper capitalism. Hell, she wrote in her last book that Erhard's sorta-keynesian rehashed ideas could work in modern Germany, and she argues for "increased regulation" and a backtrack on Reaganite/Thatcherite and Bush-era neoliberal reforms. I'm not sure her positions lie far from your ones as of now.

No, she is avoiding answering the question. The nuances might escape you, but she is weaseling out of the question. Meanwhile, she thinks Stalinism is the realistic consequence of leninism

She wrote that in 1992, man. So she thought Stalin's policy had no alternatives (well, no historical ones, by striking out Trotsky and Bucharin). You know, I once held that view too, and I changed it not because "rah rah, scary stalin", but because I discovered facts that there were, in fact, alternatives, and also a lot about Stalin's policies which wasn't known before the archives were opened in the 1990s. The more you know and all that. I freely admit she was decidedly authoritarian in her outlook, which isn't a good quality for a communist.

And up to this day, she refuses to really answer that question. She really is a mirror of Nazi apologetism - it was not the system, no it was just a few bad apples, it was not oppression, no it was a necessary evil and defence against other stuff. The immense security apparatus? A "regrettable by-product". She makes me sick.

Which question? Seriously, you're seeing things which are not there. Saying "DDR's repressive system" equals "it was not opression", and repression being "a total contrast to socialist ideals" means "a few bad apples" or "necessary evil"? How so? She flat-out stated that the DDR system was not free and the good stuff was mostly confined to equality, while repression was a complete opposite of the ideal the DDR was supposed to represent. That's about the same way I could characterize the Soviet Union.

Ob die Mauer unter den damaligen Bedingungen vermeidbar war, mögen Historiker entscheiden. Fakt ist, dass darüber nicht primär in Berlin, sondern vor allem in Moskau und Washington entschieden wurde

Righto.

Um... So Sarah knows that Khrushev proposed to tighten the border, build a wall and said that this was also desired by the West as well and should be framed as "the desire of the entire socialist bloc". Anyone who read Khrushev's phone talk with Ulbricht would think the same, I believe. You're lambasting her for actually saying something sensible, that the DDR was a satellite regime controlled from Moscow and greater Cold War politics played a much greater role in their political fate, which includes the Wall. Unlike the husband stuff which I admit is cringeworthy, that's not what I could describe as stupid.

Anyway, I'd like to note that whatever the failings of the Linke (and that party has lots of Stasi stooges far worse than Wagenknecht, who might be a hypocrite and a lobster-eater, but she also had problems in the former DDR herself - unlike those who were high on power), they are requesting a Parliamentary review of the German mission in Saudi Arabia:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15122486,00.html

The mission in Saudi Arabia has been reviewed by parliament, and is currently under another review requested by The Left party.

And here's how CDU describes Saudi Arabia - one of the worst theocratic shitholes and also major sponsors of islamist terrorism:

Armin Schuster, a parliamentarian in the ruling center-right Christian Democratic Union, defended the project in Saudi Arabia. He said while he understood objections to working there, Germany could not limit its cooperation exclusively to countries with identical values of law and justice.

"If you want to cooperate with a country on fighting terrorism, then you have to invest there," he said. "For me it's a principle of 'You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.'"

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2 ... 55948.html

The opposition Greens and the Left party said they would condemn the weapons sale to Saudi Arabia if it were confirmed, pointing out it would be a violation of restrictions on arms exports.

You know, in this particular instance the Left actually demonstrated something good, while the ruling German political establishment made themselves look like complete asses. Hell, you said a while ago that ruling politicos behaving like this will mean the opposition won't even need to do anything to win the elections

Finally - and that's my last word on the matter - I'm not going to simply dismiss the Linke as some sort of DDR-nostalgic idiots with no other worthy ideas or points, when they have been raising important questions about democratic control both in the Greater EU and inside Germany itself. Sahra may be a hypocrite, but at least she clearly raised important questions and had the guts to criticize Sarkozy as the authoritarian nutjob he is and also the bailouts as early as 2008. At the same time when Brown, Merkel, Sarkozy and others were singing the Leprechaun's tune:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 937516.ece

“Our citizens will be protected by today’s package against even stronger effects... If the state had not intervened, the consequences would have been incalculable - above all for our citizens, for savers and for the economy.”

Yup. That worked out real well there. A bunch of leaders decided on enormous bailouts which basically bankrupted weaker European economies, in a totally undemocratic fashion - and the only party which had been brave enough to actually call this "undemocratic" was the Linke? As of now, as a useful minority, they are a much-needed democratic opposition to the ideas of dictatorially imposed economic policies that seems to permeate Europe from the elite-decided and elite-manufactured bailouts of 2008 down to the bank-and-government dictates to the now-bankrupt PIIGS nations. Needless to remind, 88% of Germans aren't happy with capitalism and think it should be replaced with something else, but via the ballot, not a revolution (or so says a poll conducted Emnid Institute for Public Opinion Research commissioned by the Bertelsmann Fund).

The absolutely deplorable dealings with KSA at the time it is killing people in Bahrain - something Germany avoided for what, twenty years or how many decades now? - are just icing on the cake. The popularity of the Linke will grow regardless of any DDR ties if the ruling elite continues to behave the same "snub ya!" way as it did for the last 3-4 years.

[Thanas]

Well, you got me here. That's crazy, being married to a capitalist and a fraudster while saying capitalism belongs to the dust bin of history. That's like being Krupp's wife and posing as a communist, I can't even imagine that. And that's also idiotic for your career. Still I must say her book about the recent crisis was not just dumb-dumb-dumb, as far as books written by politicians go. I do like to read books written by politicos, and from what I read, her intellectual capabilities aren't that bad. It is probably her morals - which just aren't there.

She is not alone in there. The whole leadership of Die Linke is like that. Lafontaine for example received five-figure sums for talks and got snippy when his first class suite was not available etc. Gysi was a Stasi informant....and of course, there is the whole business of the die Linke claiming to abhor Hartz IV while actually trying to keep their own labor costs down by paying just about that to their own employees.

If you truly want a left-wing politician with integrity, you have to look at the Greens, who got a number of them (like Ströbele).

I'm not sure her positions lie far from your ones as of now.

So my positions are too dictatorial?

Which question? Seriously, you're seeing things which are not there. Saying "DDR's repressive system" equals "it was not opression", and repression being "a total contrast to socialist ideals" means "a few bad apples" or "necessary evil"? How so? She flat-out stated that the DDR system was not free and the good stuff was mostly confined to equality, while repression was a complete opposite of the ideal the DDR was supposed to represent. That's about the same way I could characterize the Soviet Union.

The problem is that to this day she refuses to commemorate any victim of that oppression, nor does she vote for continued research for the evils of the Stasi. On the contrary, she (and her whole party) tried to squash this by trying to deny funding for the center of historical research.

Um... So Sarah knows that Khrushev proposed to tighten the border, build a wall and said that this was also desired by the West as well and should be framed as "the desire of the entire socialist bloc". Anyone who read Khrushev's phone talk with Ulbricht would think the same, I believe. You're lambasting her for actually saying something sensible, that the DDR was a satellite regime controlled from Moscow and greater Cold War politics played a much greater role in their political fate, which includes the Wall.

You've got to be pretty delusional to think that the west desired the Berlin wall.

Anyway, I'd like to note that whatever the failings of the Linke (and that party has lots of Stasi stooges far worse than Wagenknecht, who might be a hypocrite and a lobster-eater, but she also had problems in the former DDR herself - unlike those who were high on power), they are requesting a Parliamentary review of the German mission in Saudi Arabia:

So are many of the other opposition parties.

Finally - and that's my last word on the matter - I'm not going to simply dismiss the Linke as some sort of DDR-nostalgic idiots with no other worthy ideas or points, when they have been raising important questions about democratic control both in the Greater EU and inside Germany itself. Sahra may be a hypocrite, but at least she clearly raised important questions and had the guts to criticize Sarkozy as the authoritarian nutjob he is and also the bailouts as early as 2008.

Again, there is nothing on the left which makes this anything different than the other opposition parties did. Look up some of Schultz' speeches or Ströbeles.

Needless to remind, 88% of Germans aren't happy with capitalism and think it should be replaced with something else, but via the ballot, not a revolution (or so says a poll conducted Emnid Institute for Public Opinion Research commissioned by the Bertelsmann Fund).

That is pretty much not what you want to argue here. You are trying to paint this as if there is a vast majority of Germans unhappy with the soziale Marktwirtschaft. At the best they are calling for modifications, but definitely not the socialist/communist utopia nonsense you espouse.

The popularity of the Linke will grow regardless of any DDR ties if the ruling elite continues to behave the same "snub ya!" way as it did for the last 3-4 years.

It won't. The Linke failed to capitalize on any of these topics in the recent elections, which were held only a few months ago. They are widely regarded as jokes outside a very small percentage (about 4-6% of the populace). There are much more serious political parties like the Greens who also do not sound like complete nutcases and actually can bring up some solutions.

[Sea Skimmer]

Considering the standard protester killing rifle of the Royal Saudi Army is the German G3, with some forces armed with the HK33, and the MG42/58 being the standard machine guns and MP5 standard submachine gun for the Army and National Guard… why the fuck does this even matter? Sell them modern tanks and they become dependent on Germany for spare parts and repair technicians instead of increasing the order for Russian T-90S tanks.