Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

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Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Apparently it was a prize taken by taken by the pirates, and still had the crew held on board.

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KUALA LUMPUR (AFP) – A maritime watchdog said Wednesday that the vessel sunk by the Indian navy in the Gulf of Aden was a Thai fishing trawler and not a Somali pirate vessel as was first announced.

The Indian Navy won international praise for taking on the Somali pirates , who have turned the vital Suez Canal trade route into the world's most dangerous waterway.

But Noel Choong, head of the International Maritime Bureau (IMB) piracy reporting centre, said the vessel it attacked was a Thai-operated fishing boat which had been seized by Somali pirates off Yemen on November 18.

"We can confirm that the incident has taken place. One Thai crew member died during the attack by the Indian navy, on the same day the vessel was hijacked by Somali pirates," he told AFP.

Choong said that one Cambodian crewman was rescued by passing fishermen four days later, but 14 other crew on the Kiribati-registered vessel are still missing.

India's navy defended its actions, saying Wednesday that the vessel its stealth frigate fired on had been hostile.

"The Indian navy ship asked them to stop for investigation on repeated calls. The vessel responded by saying it would blow up the Indian ship," navy spokesman Commander Nirad Sinha told AFP in New Delhi.

"Pirates were seen roaming on the deck with rocket-propelled grenade launchers," he said, adding that the Indian navy only opened fire after being fired upon.

Choong said that photographs of the Thai vessel had been sent out to the coalition naval forces and other agencies when it was hijacked as "the fishing boat was actually an ideal mother vessel for the pirates."

"The Indian navy may have not received this information as they are not part of the coalition forces and we have no direct link with them," he said.

The downed boat was owned by the Thai-based Sirichai Fisheries and was being held by heavily armed pirates at the time the Indian frigate, the INS Tabar, opened fire.

Sirichai Fisheries confirmed the deep sea trawler Ekawatnava 5 had been destroyed and said the crew were tied up when it opened fire.

"The ship was hijacked early in the day and was sunk in the evening," its managing director Wicharn Sirchaiekawat told AFP in Bangkok.

"Based on the surviving Cambodian crew member's account, all of them were tied up except two -- the captain and translator -- during the attack."

Wicharn said the Thai foreign ministry had summoned the Indian ambassador to Thailand to hand over a complaint.

"We want to know the details -- why it was sunk and why the Indian navy did not rescue the crew," he said.

Choong said that naval ships operating independently in the region should make efforts to obtain information on hijacked vessels, and link up with coalition forces to avoid confusion in the future.

"Hopefully this tragic incident will not happen again, and more importantly it should not hamper existing anti-piracy operation by the navy," he said.

Choong said that coalition forces and Yemeni authorities are searching for any survivors from the Thai fishing boat.

The IMB said 96 ships have been attacked so far this year off Somalia and in the Gulf of Aden, with 39 hijacked and 15 still being held with more than 300 crew aboard.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

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Damnit. Can the good guys ever do anything right? :banghead:
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by Edi »

You can lay the blame for this on the pirates. Fire upon a naval vessel, better be damn sure you have enough firepower to sink it in one go, as they WILL fire back and WILL destroy the attacker. Sucks for the Thai fishermen, but there was no other realistic outcome of that incident. If the Indians didn't look for survivors at all, that is a different matter. But sinking the ship is not something they can be blamed for.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by ArmorPierce »

Edi wrote:Sucks for the Thai fishermen, but there was no other realistic outcome of that incident. If the Indians didn't look for survivors at all, that is a different matter. .
I think that's what they are being blamed for from the Thai government.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by Ekiqa »

ArmorPierce wrote:
Edi wrote:Sucks for the Thai fishermen, but there was no other realistic outcome of that incident. If the Indians didn't look for survivors at all, that is a different matter. .
I think that's what they are being blamed for from the Thai government.
Maybe, but to be fair, the captain of the Indian vessel probably thought the pirates were better dead, than in a prison.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by CmdrWilkens »

ArmorPierce wrote:
Edi wrote:Sucks for the Thai fishermen, but there was no other realistic outcome of that incident. If the Indians didn't look for survivors at all, that is a different matter. .
I think that's what they are being blamed for from the Thai government.
Honestly it sounds more like the Thai government is asking for some sort of AAR which would indicate whether or not the frigate did in fact do so or if it just fired and forgot.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by Stark »

It turns out fighting pirates is a little more complex than 'lol c'mon everyone shotz teh pirotz'. Who knew?

Oh yeah, everyone.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

The reason the Indians didn't stop to rescue survivors is that they were pursuing the escaping motorboats, which is, sorry, what warships do when fighting the enemy. In WW2 that's bloody well what everyone did--at best, you'd throw some life rings and life-rafts over the side as you churned past the survivors of the ship you'd just sunk at 30+ knots. Only when the enemy had been dealt with did you search for survivors.

Anyway, it WAS a pirate vessel--the Pirates may have just taken it over, but it was loaded with heavy weapons and pirates and even if it hadn't been a pirate mothership before, it had clearly just become one, since the pirates were now using it to launch further attacks. They also shot first, making this an enormously cut and dried case.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by K. A. Pital »

There were also no hostages on deck, meaning Indian navy had no way of knowing this isn't a pirate ship. Fully justified sinking in my view.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

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Stark wrote:It turns out fighting pirates is a little more complex than 'lol c'mon everyone shotz teh pirotz'. Who knew?

Oh yeah, everyone.
Am I wrong for being annoyed that it isn't so simple?
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Ryan Thunder wrote:
Stark wrote:It turns out fighting pirates is a little more complex than 'lol c'mon everyone shotz teh pirotz'. Who knew?

Oh yeah, everyone.
Am I wrong for being annoyed that it isn't so simple?
I think anyone who has or hasn't been in an armed confrontation wishes it was simpler and is ticked that the world doesn't make clean distinctions between right and wrong that make it easy to sleep at night. I think its very human that we WISH the world were easier to understand, the important thing is acknowledging that there are complexities out there and taking that into account when we make our judgements. That last part is obviously quite a bit harder to do than say.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The reason the Indians didn't stop to rescue survivors is that they were pursuing the escaping motorboats, which is, sorry, what warships do when fighting the enemy. In WW2 that's bloody well what everyone did--at best, you'd throw some life rings and life-rafts over the side as you churned past the survivors of the ship you'd just sunk at 30+ knots. Only when the enemy had been dealt with did you search for survivors.
Yeah nobody ever attempted to rescue floaters in a warzone and was scared off by enemy planes/sub warnings/enemy forces, right? Even hated enemies threatening the survival of a nation and not just some pesky cargo-stealing criminal nobodies and civilian prisoners!
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Anyway, it WAS a pirate vessel--the Pirates may have just taken it over, but it was loaded with heavy weapons and pirates and even if it hadn't been a pirate mothership before, it had clearly just become one, since the pirates were now using it to launch further attacks. They also shot first, making this an enormously cut and dried case.
Sorry, situation is complex. Ridiculous 'lul blow upz teh pirots' ideas were always going to run face-first into reality.

But then you 'joked' they should level entire villages in retaliation, so hey, clear and incisive analysis. :D Let's apply this logic to... urban hostage situations. :)
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

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Stark wrote:Even hated enemies threatening the survival of a nation and not just some pesky cargo-stealing criminal nobodies and civilian prisoners!
Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan seriously threatened the United States of America's survival as a nation?

More on topic, are you of the opinion that because they do not wear uniform, pirates with military-grade weapons should be treated more leniently than legal POWs? These are not "civilian" software pirates you hand a bill for stealing immaterial property. They knowingly and willingly illegally assault international shipping, whereas a Seaman in the Second World War might be an unwilling conscript, or in any case is acting lawfully (barring extraordinary circumstances). If anything, the pirates are illegal combatants, and can claim no protection under the laws of war.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by ray245 »

One reason shipping companies hated the idea of military assaulting the ships is due to the loss of ships and lives.

Which is why they choose to give ransom to these pirates.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

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Stark wrote:Yeah nobody ever attempted to rescue floaters in a warzone and was scared off by enemy planes/sub warnings/enemy forces, right? Even hated enemies threatening the survival of a nation and not just some pesky cargo-stealing criminal nobodies and civilian prisoners!
The Germans and Japanese rarely stopped to pick up survivors during the wars.

The Allied would only stop and pick up survivors IF the action was over. But they WOULD abandon survivors if the safety of the ship was threatened, such as the Dorsetshire aftert the Bismarck action, when reports of a U-boat in the vicinity, it abandoned several hundred survivors.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Stark wrote:
Yeah nobody ever attempted to rescue floaters in a warzone and was scared off by enemy planes/sub warnings/enemy forces, right? Even hated enemies threatening the survival of a nation and not just some pesky cargo-stealing criminal nobodies and civilian prisoners!
It was a case of hot pursuit, not intentional abandonment. There was only one naval vessel there, and defeating the enemy comes first. The chase proved long enough that it was impossible for them to double back effectively--the currents would have moved the survivors several miles by that point, and on the open ocean at night that = certainly lost, it's almost impossible to pick out some guys floating on wreckage in the open ocean, let alone at night.

Sorry, situation is complex. Ridiculous 'lul blow upz teh pirots' ideas were always going to run face-first into reality.
It remains the only viable solution. It's not ridiculous--it's the only thing that's ever worked.
But then you 'joked' they should level entire villages in retaliation, so hey, clear and incisive analysis. :D Let's apply this logic to... urban hostage situations. :)

Piracy has always been considered a unique crime, and when the shipping costs of goods to America and Europe spike by 30% because everyone is avoiding the Suez Canal, delivery times take 12 days longer, and food and fuel prices increase by 3% or so across the board in the middle of a recession as a result of these pirate actions, they will have in fact managed to do more damage to America and Europe then all al-Qaeda terrorist attacks put together.

Attacking the ports they operate from and levelling them (we can let the civilians leave first before demolishing them and poisoning the wells, you know) is really the only effective solution to piracy.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

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Ekiqa wrote:
Stark wrote:Yeah nobody ever attempted to rescue floaters in a warzone and was scared off by enemy planes/sub warnings/enemy forces, right? Even hated enemies threatening the survival of a nation and not just some pesky cargo-stealing criminal nobodies and civilian prisoners!
The Germans and Japanese rarely stopped to pick up survivors during the wars.
In case of the germans, that was mostly due to there being no space and the risk of damage. When there was space, they did their best to pick up survivors, like in case of the commerce raiders. One U-boat however did open fire on survivors.
The Allied would only stop and pick up survivors IF the action was over. But they WOULD abandon survivors if the safety of the ship was threatened, such as the Dorsetshire aftert the Bismarck action, when reports of a U-boat in the vicinity, it abandoned several hundred survivors.
Or when protocol demanded that no ship was to stop for any survivors regardless of the nation they belonged to. Of course, there is also the incident of british sailors gunning down swimming german survivors near norway.


The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Attacking the ports they operate from and levelling them (we can let the civilians leave first before demolishing them and poisoning the wells, you know) is really the only effective solution to piracy.
You might as well go ahead and level almost every fishing village then since the pirates will move on to those bases then. Also, if they are threatened with immediate retaliation, why bother with hostage taking? Just shoot them, take what you can and then blow up the ship.

None of those scenarios sound appealing to me.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

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Thanas wrote:In case of the germans, that was mostly due to there being no space and the risk of damage. When there was space, they did their best to pick up survivors, like in case of the commerce raiders. One U-boat however did open fire on survivors.
The German surace ships, except for the raiders, rarely picked up survivors. When Glorious and her escorting destroyers were sunk, no-one was picked up.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

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STRAK wrote:Sorry, situation is complex. Ridiculous 'lul blow upz teh pirots' ideas were always going to run face-first into reality.
Do you have a solution? Or are you simply going to rule out the effective one because the situation is "complex"?

Even complex problems can have very simple solutions.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

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Ryan Thunder wrote:
STRAK wrote:Sorry, situation is complex. Ridiculous 'lul blow upz teh pirots' ideas were always going to run face-first into reality.
Do you have a solution? Or are you simply going to rule out the effective one because the situation is "complex"?

Even complex problems can have very simple solutions.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

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Thanas wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Attacking the ports they operate from and levelling them (we can let the civilians leave first before demolishing them and poisoning the wells, you know) is really the only effective solution to piracy.
You might as well go ahead and level almost every fishing village then since the pirates will move on to those bases then. Also, if they are threatened with immediate retaliation, why bother with hostage taking? Just shoot them, take what you can and then blow up the ship.

None of those scenarios sound appealing to me.
Guess what, sometimes there are no nice options.

Not every coastal village will be able to support piracy. There is going to be a minimal level of infrastructure that is in place for pirates to maintain a significant threat to commerce. So you won't be targeting every village on the coast. By targeting their base of operations, you force the pirates to adjust their actions to protect themselves. This means attacking further from your home port, going after less visible targets (and thus less lucrative) and putting significant restrictions on contact with third parties, which makes selling stolen cargo that much more difficult. Making it policy to level any village harboring pirates removes the financial incentive that villagers have to support pirate operations. Pirates either have to spend a lot more money to win local support, or they have to bully the locals, and risk someone informing on them.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

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Alex Moon wrote:
Thanas wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Attacking the ports they operate from and levelling them (we can let the civilians leave first before demolishing them and poisoning the wells, you know) is really the only effective solution to piracy.
You might as well go ahead and level almost every fishing village then since the pirates will move on to those bases then. Also, if they are threatened with immediate retaliation, why bother with hostage taking? Just shoot them, take what you can and then blow up the ship.

None of those scenarios sound appealing to me.
Guess what, sometimes there are no nice options.
Sometimes there are no nice options? OMG, I totally didn't take that into account.
Not every coastal village will be able to support piracy. There is going to be a minimal level of infrastructure that is in place for pirates to maintain a significant threat to commerce.
Wrong. All you really need in my aforementioned are a few fishing boats.
So you won't be targeting every village on the coast. By targeting their base of operations, you force the pirates to adjust their actions to protect themselves. This means attacking further from your home port, going after less visible targets (and thus less lucrative) and putting significant restrictions on contact with third parties, which makes selling stolen cargo that much more difficult.
I know the theory. In practice however, there is no way this is going to work without a massive international force, especially if you want to minimize civilian casualties.
Making it policy to level any village harboring pirates removes the financial incentive that villagers have to support pirate operations. Pirates either have to spend a lot more money to win local support, or they have to bully the locals, and risk someone informing on them.
Yeah, people will inform on pirates when it will result in their village getting levelled. Excellent train of thought. Levelling villages rarely worked in history when dealing with insurrections and partisans, what makes you think it will work this time? The country is starving and desperate people do desperate things. Unless the west adresses that problem, piracy will continue to happen.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Thanas wrote:
Wrong. All you really need in my aforementioned are a few fishing boats.
No, you don't. You need fairly large dhows with extremely powerful diesels, or you need small zodiacs and other light craft with extremely powerful outboards. You have to consider the fact that moving at even 12kts it's very hard to catch a freighter, because, one, the stern chase is the long chase, and two, those dramatic speed estimates for powerboats are mostly bunk on the open ocean. They'll be riding from wave to wave while a large freighter plows through and creates its own hydrography, more or less. In short, the reason why there aren't even more attacks is because probably half the time the pirates can't catch them, and if we smash everything they have in the way of engines powerful enough to overhaul a large freighter, which can make full speed in any seaway and doesn't ride over the waves, then the remaining wooden fishing boats are worthless.

Or go after their fuel supplies, of course.

And the motherships are in the hundreds of tonnes range, noticeably larger long-distance deepwater fishing vessels of western manufacture, and those can simply be banned from the area for a year, and then every one remaining in the exclusion zone can be sunk, as can any moored along the Somalian coast.

Yeah, people will inform on pirates when it will result in their village getting levelled. Excellent train of thought. Levelling villages rarely worked in history when dealing with insurrections and partisans, what makes you think it will work this time? The country is starving and desperate people do desperate things. Unless the west adresses that problem, piracy will continue to happen.
And yet this worked fine on the Northwest Frontier during the British Raj, for some reason, where the punishment for rebellions and insurrections was to have the homes of the village destroyed... It showed the men to be helpless while not giving them a reason to fight by letting their families escape, by forcing the men to care for their families' survival rather than worry about the offence to their honour. The reason this tactic failed in many other places is because the people using it usually combined it with wholesale slaughters of innocents, which gave the fighting-age men reason to continue resistance even more vigorously.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by Bluewolf »

To be honest its going to ge costly on a life and money basis for this to be solved. You could board each boat in the area but that requires a large force and time. Blasting them will lead to stuff like this but may be a price to pay for it, village attacks are the same. To be honest if there was a way of tracking pirates then you could destroy them and where they refuel. It is likley they will pop up in other areas though.

My stance on picking up survivers is that it should be done, only if there is no clear threat and there is time to do it. Pirates know the risks and while it can be useful capturing them; it should be forsaken if we can stop more of these pirate attacks.
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Re: Oops : The pirate the Indians sunk ? Apparently not a pirate

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

Isn't the primary cause of the Somalian piracy that the region is so destitute that piracy becomes the most rewarding job possible for many? If that's the case, isn't bombarding the infrastructure going to exacerbate the problem, or at best just temporarily suppress it? Wrecking the infrastructure is going to ruin every other form of livelihood as well, and as soon as we stop blowing things up, isn't piracy going to be one of the first things that fills in the vacuum?
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