And this, my friends is why I will NEVER vote for a Conservative government in my lifetime. Sure I wasnt exactly happy about how many "promises" the Liberals broke, and I've never been fond of how pie in the sky hippie the NDP are, but public funding for religious nutcase schools? Creationism and ID taught in MY province with the assitance of MY fucking tax dollars? FUCK YOU JOHN TORY.The Toronto Star wrote:Tory ignites debate over creationism in schools
TheStar.com - Ontario Election - Tory ignites debate over creationism in schools
September 05, 2007
Richard Brennan
QUEEN’S PARK BUREAU
John Tory spent the morning promoting his $400 million election campaign promise to introduce public funding for faith-based schools and said that under the plan, schools would be allowed teach controversial subjects such a creationism.
“They teach evolution in the Ontario curriculum but they also could teach the facts to the children that there are other theories that people have out there that are part of some Christian beliefs,” the Progressive Conservative Leader told reporters.
Critics have said there is no way to properly police what these religious schools are promoting, such as the absolute teaching that the world was created in seven days, despite Tory’s assurance they would be force to teach the provincial curriculum.
While visiting the Kamin Education Centre, a 100-year-old Jewish school in Thornhill, Tory lashed out at critics of his funding policy calling them fear-mongers.
“It’s not time for fearmongering, it is time for open, honest examination of what we can do to better public education and build a more inclusive Ontario,” he said, noting that religious groups have been complaining for decades of the unfairness.
“I, myself have listened to people talking about this issue for 30 years … and I decided when I ran for leader it was time we addressed the issue openly and honestly,” he said, adding it is impossible to defend funding for Catholic schools and not other religions.
The governing Liberals quickly jumped on Tory’s remarks, calling it a “violation” of the Ontario curriculum — which already teaches evolution — for creationism to be taught outside the context of a religion class.
Creationism isn’t included in any Canadian provincial science curriculum and has been banned outright in British Columbia.
Sensing a growing media storm, Tory later clarified his remarks to say that he meant creationism could be taught in religion class, and that he did not mean to suggest the two theories would be given equal weight in a science lab.
The Conservative election promise to fund religious schools would ensure all students get a more well-rounded education, because it would make the schools subject to provincial inspections, he added.
Education Minister Kathleen Wynne — who is running against Tory for her Toronto seat — said his comments prove his policy hasn’t been properly thought out. Creationism is currently not part of the provincial science curriculum and isn’t given the same weight as evolution, she said.
Catholic schools may talk about creationism, Wynne said, but only in the context of a broader religious discussion.
“It’s useful for students to have the opportunity to know the ideas that are out there and are part of our history,” Wynne said.
“What we teach as the truth is the question. The scientific truths are the ones that are included in the Ontario curriculum. That’s the curriculum that we support.”
The debate over publicly funding faith-based schools is ``divisive” and is just a “distraction” from the real issues in public education, she added.
John Vanasselt, with the Ontario Alliance of Christian Schools, said there is no reason why Ontario shouldn’t join other provinces that make room for religious beliefs within the public education system.
The alliance’s 78 schools already teach evolution in science class, but it is taught on par with creationism, he said.
“Our position is that the creation story is the one we believe our children ought to learn,” Vanasselt said.
“(But) we don’t believe that we’re doing them any help if we don’t teach them the other ones that are out there either . . . . We live in a free country. There needs to be freedom of thought and freedom of expression. There isn’t just one official belief.”
David Seljak, professor of religious studies at St. Jerome University at the University of Waterloo, said the teaching of creationism alongside evolution hasn’t been detrimental to students who are steeped in private, religious education.
There are private Christian universities that teach creationism and talk about the resurrection of the dead but still produce fine medical doctors, he said.
“The fear of these schools is exaggerated,” Seljak said. “That being said . . . it would have to be very closely monitored because people do all kinds of crazy things in the name of religion.”
with files from Canadian Press
Creationism to be Taught in Ontario Schools?
Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
Creationism to be Taught in Ontario Schools?
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On a slight side-note,
Sure, but they don't teach as correct in spite of what the facts are, don't they, Mr. Vanasselt? Hell, I'd wager that even the most conservative of these Christian medical schools teach the evolutionary reason as to why bacteria develop antibiotic resistance.There are private Christian universities that teach creationism and talk about the resurrection of the dead but still produce fine medical doctors, he said.
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I would just like to point out that as stupid as we Americans are for reelecting Bush, you guys voted for conservatives who were bobbing his knob after you saw how much he fucked this country up.
We pissing our pants yet?
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You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to Shit. Your. Pants!
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He who can, does; he who cannot, teaches.
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-Negan
You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to Shit. Your. Pants!
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He who can, does; he who cannot, teaches.
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We haven't voted for this fucktard yet. Unfortunately, he's playing the same game that the US conservatives perfected: scare tactics based on crime and crypto-racism.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Ryerson University in Toronto was peddling it too, and most of the class I was in swallowed it.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
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BOTM - EBC - Horseman - G&C - Vampire
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
"I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..."
"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.
BOTM - EBC - Horseman - G&C - Vampire
Now he's backpedaling:
Globe and Mail wrote:John Tory backpedals on creationism
CAROLINE ALPHONSO
From Thursday's Globe and Mail
September 6, 2007 at 4:34 AM EDT
THORNHILL, ONT. — Christian private schools should be allowed to teach creationism if they receive public funding, Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory said yesterday.
But six hours later, he went into damage-control mode, saying creationism should be explored only in religion class and not elsewhere in the curriculum, such as in science class.
"The Christian-based school would have to teach the Ontario curriculum," Mr. Tory told reporters in defending his plan to fund religious schools. "They teach evolution in the Ontario curriculum, but they also could teach the fact to the children that there are other theories that people have out there that are part of some Christian beliefs."
Mr. Tory, a member of the United Church, said that if he is elected premier on Oct. 10, private religious schools could opt in to the public system provided they are subject to provincial inspections. But they would still be allowed to teach their core beliefs.
His remarks quickly drew fire from the Liberal government.
Education Minister Kathleen Wynne, who is running against Mr. Tory in the Toronto riding of Don Valley West, accused him of not thinking through his campaign pledge.
"The reason that private schools exist is that they don't want to be part of the publicly funded system ... We allow that in Ontario. We allow that freedom," Ms. Wynne said in an interview.
"In terms of public dollars, those public dollars should go into a curriculum that has been agreed upon as being the one that is the best for our kids and is rooted in science and is rooted in evidence."
The creation-evolution debate has been a perennial theme in the U.S. education system, where Christian groups want creationism taught in the classroom over evolution. Creationists reject the Darwinian evolution theory, and believe that every word in the Book of Genesis is literally true.
Roman Catholic schools, who come under Ontario's public education umbrella, do explore creationism, but only in religion class. Evolution is taught elsewhere in the curriculum.
In clarifying his remarks yesterday, Mr. Tory said: "The Ontario curriculum teaches evolution and that is the curriculum that would have to be taught in the faith-based and all other schools that receive public funding. There are other theories that can be taught as part of religious instruction ... But the curriculum is the curriculum."
Mr. Tory has released few details of his plan to extend funding to private religious schools. He is leaving that up to a commission that won't meet until after the election.
Still, the issue has dominated the agenda even before the campaign officially kicks off Monday. Mr. Tory wants to extend taxpayer funding to all religious schools, not just Roman Catholic ones - a move Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty said would threaten the stability of the public education system.
On the unofficial campaign trail yesterday, Mr. Tory lashed out at critics, saying this is not the time for fear mongering. He said that he envisions one school bus picking up children on a particular street and dropping them off to different schools.
"I also want to see a day when these kids from the faith-based schools are playing basketball with the kids in the public school," he said at the Kamin Education Centre, a private Jewish school.
"And I ask this question of people, do they think if it's a good thing for kids to play basketball with each other ... it's more likely to happen with these schools included in public education or outside the tent where they are today? I say it will happen if they are included as part of public education."
Annie Kidder, a spokeswoman for People for Education, said yesterday she was frustrated that the focus in this election campaign is on private schools entering the public system, and not on fixing public education.
"We're already now getting into the details about what will be taught in religious schools. We've put the cart very far ahead of the horse," she said.
"It's frustrating and it allows us to avoid much more important ... exploration that I really think we need right now in Ontario."
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"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." --P.J. O'Rourke
"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --J.S. Mill
HAB: Crew-Served Weapons Specialist
"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." --P.J. O'Rourke
"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --J.S. Mill
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Of course they did. They're artsies.Keevan_Colton wrote:Ryerson University in Toronto was peddling it too, and most of the class I was in swallowed it.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
So I have the choice of voting for the most incompetant Premier since Bob Rae, a racist fundie asshole, or some nutcase whose policies would make Bob Rae look brilliant. I'm finally getting an idea of how US voters might feel like.
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me.
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either.
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either.
How was he responsible for the effective destruction of the PC party in '93? Sure, that stupid campaign ad he approved was certainly damaging, but at that point it was really just throwing a bit more kindling into an already raging fire: Thanks to Mulroney's legacy, coupled with the rise of Reform as a viable political party, the PC's were screwed anyway.President Sharky wrote:But instead they voted this douche as their leader. The man responsible for the 1993 Federal PC election disaster.
As for my take on this election, it looks like the Liberals are headed for a minority government at the moment, if so, they will have to rely on Howard Hampton's NDP (who are poised to make gains from Liberal defectors) for support, something I'm even less enthused with than Tory's blatent religious pandering, given the Ontario NDP's disastrous track record.
The M2HB: The Greatest Machinegun Ever Made.
HAB: Crew-Served Weapons Specialist
"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." --P.J. O'Rourke
"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --J.S. Mill
HAB: Crew-Served Weapons Specialist
"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." --P.J. O'Rourke
"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --J.S. Mill
What a mess. No way I'm voting PC, even with the backpedaling on creationism. The correct answer to the "it's not fair that Catholic schools get funding, but not Jewish/Islamic/etc" problem is to have one secular school system, not a segregated patchwork system. Their kids can learn bullshit at home or at church.
It's really going to hurt voting for that asshole McGuinty, but the NDP and Green policies on energy (nuclear especially) are disastrously stupid.
It's really going to hurt voting for that asshole McGuinty, but the NDP and Green policies on energy (nuclear especially) are disastrously stupid.
- SCRawl
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Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen without some changes to our constitution. The right to have a Catholic education is guaranteed. I saw McGuinty answer a question a few months ago that gave me the impression that he'd just as soon dump the idea of funding the Catholic school boards, but didn't want to come right out and say it.The Dude wrote:What a mess. No way I'm voting PC, even with the backpedaling on creationism. The correct answer to the "it's not fair that Catholic schools get funding, but not Jewish/Islamic/etc" problem is to have one secular school system, not a segregated patchwork system. Their kids can learn bullshit at home or at church.
I've been saying for years that funding the separate school boards is asinine, but I can't do much besides vote. Apparently they've stopped funding them in Quebec and Newfoundland. I found an interesting link here.
73% of all statistics are made up, including this one.
I'm waiting as fast as I can.
I'm waiting as fast as I can.
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Progressive Conservative? Oh shit, I'm scared. The name itself sounds... well, oxymoronic... there are a couple bad names like that, for example Christian Democrats in Europe but PC is even more ridiculous.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
- Darth Wong
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The idea behind the name was "social progressive but fiscally conservative". That's why the "New Conservative Party" quietly dropped the "Progressive" part of their name, because they're going for the fundie vote.Stas Bush wrote:Progressive Conservative? Oh shit, I'm scared. The name itself sounds... well, oxymoronic... there are a couple bad names like that, for example Christian Democrats in Europe but PC is even more ridiculous.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Obviously theirs no way to know for sure as of yet, but historically the NDP always does much better in the polls towards the beginning of the campaign, and always end up having their voters go to the Liberals my guess is that this will happen again, but their is no way that this will be a "Landslide" victory for the Liberal party like it was in the last provincial election.Ma Deuce wrote:As for my take on this election, it looks like the Liberals are headed for a minority government at the moment, if so, they will have to rely on Howard Hampton's NDP (who are poised to make gains from Liberal defectors) for support, something I'm even less enthused with than Tory's blatent religious pandering, given the Ontario NDP's disastrous track record.
I'm pretty much resigned to voting Liberal as of right now. They've done a decent job of governing in my view, obviously the health tax premium will have pissed off alot of people but in general I think the Liberals are moving in the right direction having balanced the budget, and raised the minimum wage among other things last time around and it looks like they've got the right idea on the environment, transit and energy so I don't feel at all like I'm having to choose between the lesser of two evils in this election.
"If I were two-faced, would I be wearing this one? "
-Abraham Lincoln
"I pity the fool!"
- The one, the only, Mr. T
-Abraham Lincoln
"I pity the fool!"
- The one, the only, Mr. T
It's a new income tax the Liberals slapped on (I'm not too sure on the specifics, I'm a student not a full-time worker...which might be part of the reason it hasn't concerned me much) but it was introduced to improve wait times, hire more doctors to improve health care (and no doubt to help balance the budget as well) though the Liberals have been criticized because while they introduced the tax they also eliminated things like free eye exams and in the past campaign they had promised not to raise taxes.Cpl Kendall wrote:What's this health tax premium?
The correct name is the "Ontario Health Premium" link
"If I were two-faced, would I be wearing this one? "
-Abraham Lincoln
"I pity the fool!"
- The one, the only, Mr. T
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Conservatives love to blast Liberals for raising taxes, but historically, the Conservatives raise spending as much as Liberals if not more, so all they do is dig us into a hole while trying to scare us with the Tax Bogeyman. As if deficit spending (which the last federal PC government did in record levels) is somehow a magic solution that will never come back to bite you in the ass.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
- Sidewinder
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That's interesting. What doesn the Canadian constitution say about freedom of religion? Is Catholicism the only religion that's protected?SCRawl wrote:Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen without some changes to our constitution. The right to have a Catholic education is guaranteed.The Dude wrote:What a mess. No way I'm voting PC, even with the backpedaling on creationism. The correct answer to the "it's not fair that Catholic schools get funding, but not Jewish/Islamic/etc" problem is to have one secular school system, not a segregated patchwork system. Their kids can learn bullshit at home or at church.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.
Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.
They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.
They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
- Darth Wong
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Catholicism was grandfathered in. It violates freedom of religion but there's this thing called the "notwithstanding" clause which was created to act as a loophole for this kind of thing. You have to remember that unlike the USA, Canada only ratified its Constitution a little while ago. While Americans view their Constitution and their nation as symmetric things, Canadians are quite aware that our country got along for a long time without a Constitution.Sidewinder wrote:That's interesting. What doesn the Canadian constitution say about freedom of religion? Is Catholicism the only religion that's protected?SCRawl wrote:Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen without some changes to our constitution. The right to have a Catholic education is guaranteed.The Dude wrote:What a mess. No way I'm voting PC, even with the backpedaling on creationism. The correct answer to the "it's not fair that Catholic schools get funding, but not Jewish/Islamic/etc" problem is to have one secular school system, not a segregated patchwork system. Their kids can learn bullshit at home or at church.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
- White Cat
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Actually, the idea behind the name was that in 1942, senior party members wanted the leader of the Manitoba Progressive Party to become their leader, and tacking on "Progressive" to the start of their name was his condition for doing so.Darth Wong wrote:The idea behind the name was "social progressive but fiscally conservative". That's why the "New Conservative Party" quietly dropped the "Progressive" part of their name, because they're going for the fundie vote.Stas Bush wrote:Progressive Conservative? Oh shit, I'm scared. The name itself sounds... well, oxymoronic... there are a couple bad names like that, for example Christian Democrats in Europe but PC is even more ridiculous.
I'm open to being proved wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Notwithstanding Clause has never been used to prevent Catholic schools from being banned as unconstitutional.Catholicism was grandfathered in. It violates freedom of religion but there's this thing called the "notwithstanding" clause which was created to act as a loophole for this kind of thing. You have to remember that unlike the USA, Canada only ratified its Constitution a little while ago. While Americans view their Constitution and their nation as symmetric things, Canadians are quite aware that our country got along for a long time without a Constitution.
And Canada has had a Constitution since 1867; it just wasn't "brought home" until 1982.
LISTEN TO MY LOUSY ANIME SONG