Sen. Byrd says "Do Something About Gas Prices"

[Tommy J]

I don't doubt it and I don't want anyone to think it's just a 'poor American' thing. But alot of people jump on the 'Quit bitching, American' bandwagon too. High gas prices fuck everyone. Personally, I blame politicians for the mess but....

Knife, how to politicians control supply and demand of a finite resource? In fact, many politicians have wanted to open coastal waters in the US to more oil drilling as well as the whole Alaska drilling mess only to be opposed. I'm not saying that we should be deploying oil rigs off the coast of Louisiana or California in mass but this is a fulfilling prophecy.

The US public in general is unwilling to commit a large amount of dollars to the development of alternative fuel sources. The US public is in general opposed to raising the mileage expectations of inefficient and wasteful cars. The US public in general will not allow their taxes raised to increase the availability of mass transit. And too boot the US public supports building more freeways to decrease traffic congestion. So who's to blame. The politicians just said what the majority wanted to hear to get elected.

[Darth Wong]

Part of the problem is our lifestyle choices. When you choose to live 50 km away from where you work and then commute to work every day, you choose waste. No matter what kind of car you drive, the choice of living so far away from where you work is inherently wasteful. The entire suburban lifestyle is built around this choice, so it is no exaggeration to say that for the last 50 years, we have been steadily promoting waste.

Often times that is not the fault of commuters.

Agreed. It's the fault of the way we design our suburbs. People who insist on having a big plot of land and a big house contribute to massive suburban sprawl, which in turn dramatically increases the distances one must travel in order to get anywhere. If suburbs had the same density of apartment buildings that cities did, this wouldn't be a problem and it would actually be economically efficient to extend mass-transit service to those suburbs. As it is, it would be an economic sinkhole.

I live 5 miles from my office, my wife's school is less than 10 miles away. However, it is closing and to commute to her new school she has to travel a 30 mile loop around Narragansett Bay. However i'm willing to bet our 2.0 litre Honda Civics use less gas in that 30 mile highway trip than your 4.6 litre Mercury would use on the 10 mile trip down city streets.

True. I never said I was not complicit in the problem. But I'll give up big sedans when you pry the steering wheel from my cold, dead hands (something which is far less likely in a big sedan than a subcompact, where the same impact is far more likely to leave you cold and dead). The big sedan is still the safest car on the road. Safer than SUVs and minivans at any given weight, and safer than the little puddle-jumpers. Kudos for trying to economize on gas, but I consider my gas costs to be a form of insurance.

Besides, I only have one car for the whole family.

[MKSheppard]

What a load of bullshit by everyone.

The reason gas prices are so high is two things mainly:

1.) No new refineries have been built in roughly 25 years, due to
environmental rules and NIMBYs. Those already around are cranky
and very old, and bad things (TM) happen at them regularly; leading
to disruptions in the supply of gasoline, and hence prices going up.

2.) There's no longer a national gas market, due to so many different
"reformulated" brands of gasoline that each state requires; so you can't
ship surplus gasoline from one area to another to alleviate shortages.

[Tommy J]

Shep, are you saying that the below has had NOTHING to do with it? Come on.

[MKSheppard]

Shep, are you saying that the below has had NOTHING to do with it? Come on.

Yes, a big red X has nothing to do with it....

[Tommy J]

Chart won't post. Suffice to say, that the averages on price per gallon have increaed from in the mid $30's/Barrel to the $50's/Barrel.

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CO/M

This represents a 60% increase in the price per barrel.

[MKSheppard]

This represents a 60% increase in the price per barrel.

Not hardly surprising when the Chinese economy is buying up everything; IIRC something like half of the world's concrete production is going to China
these days, don't quote me on the exact numbers, but a lot more energy
and raw resources are being sucked in by China than they were ten years
ago.

[Thunderfire]

Not hardly surprising when the Chinese economy is buying up everything;

The world needs more oil and it get more expensive to increase the production to meet the demand. I think the oil price will reach $100 per barrel in the next few years.

[Tommy J]

This represents a 60% increase in the price per barrel.

Not hardly surprising when the Chinese economy is buying up everything; IIRC something like half of the world's concrete production is going to China
these days, don't quote me on the exact numbers, but a lot more energy
and raw resources are being sucked in by China than they were ten years
ago.

And building it and sending it back to us. I read today that the restrictions on clothing imports ended Jan 1st 2005. The Chinese turned around and increased their clothing exports by 117% and dumped a lot of inexpensive clothing onto our market to the chagrin of US clothing manufactures.

It is without question that the Chinese are probably the biggest contributor to this problem; even greater than SUV/irresponsible American gas usage.

[MKSheppard]

The world needs more oil and it get more expensive to increase the production to meet the demand. I think the oil price will reach $100 per barrel in the next few years.

At least until the oil fields that it has become economical to exploit with the
prices in that range come online and begin pouring out oil...

[Admiral Valdemar]

The lack of new refineries is one of many causes that have lead to the current climate. A steady decline in the lack of new oil fields, the war in Iraq and terrorism therein and of course, China leading a new batch of pre-industrial nations into a flurry of industrialisation have all aided in some form or another. The fact that people have the cash to buy monstrosities on the road to use up even more fuel shows doesn't help, our economy is too firmly entrenched in a fuel source of questionable integrity in the near future. Change needs to happen or else the West and a great many others will fall when Global Peak Oil is reached.

[MKSheppard]

Change needs to happen or else the West and a great many others will fall when Global Peak Oil is reached.

Predictions of doom have always failed to come true before. Like the population bomb...

[Col. Crackpot]

This represents a 60% increase in the price per barrel.

Not hardly surprising when the Chinese economy is buying up everything; IIRC something like half of the world's concrete production is going to China
these days, don't quote me on the exact numbers, but a lot more energy
and raw resources are being sucked in by China than they were ten years
ago.

ding! ding! ding! ding! CHINA isn't only fucking up the oil market, but all of the commodities markets! Concrete... and have you seen how fucking expensive lumber is getting? Christ it's insane! That and the limited growth inititives are pushing the housing market in certain areas of the US (Northeast, Pac Northwest, San Fran Bay) through the roof. Case and point: I bought my house (a modest 3 bed 1 bath ranch) last may for $173,000 USD. The house across the street from me (the same fucking house, but with an attatched garage and nicer windows) just sold for $265,000! The house next door to them (again, same house, same lot size etc) sold in January for $230,000. The closer you get to the city, the more expensive it gets. Want a 3 bed condo in Providence? that will be $800,000 please. Same thing in Boston? $1.5 million. fucking insanity.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Predictions of doom have always failed to come true before. Like the population bomb...

This is a prediction that is manifesting as we speak and very real. There is a finite amount of oil: fact. There have been less fresh oil field discoveries every year for 40 or so years: fact. People are using more and more petroleum products as the economies bolster and expendable cash grows: fact.

Sooner or later, a peak will be met. It may not be now, it may not be for a couple of decades, but it will happen. And when it does, if you're still using fossil fuels as your basic fuel, your nation is fucked.

[RedImperator]

US housing prices are being driven up by speculation faster than they are by commodities costs (though those aren't helping). I believe I read a statistic where two out of every three houses purchased are investment properties or vacation homes.

Can't wait to see what happens when THAT bubble bursts.

[MKSheppard]

And when it does, if you're still using fossil fuels as your basic fuel, your nation is fucked.

Not the US. All hail our Coal Deposits good for 3 centuries

[MKSheppard]

And secondly, I find it funny that so much of West Virginia has to travel outside their home counties to find work. You mean that Senator Porkbarrel
Bryd is still unable to give every WVian a job, despite him strongarming the
feds into pouring so much money in for well, everything in west virginia...
everything there's named after the man it seems...

[Sam Or I]

[quote="MKSheppard"]What a load of bullshit by everyone.

The reason gas prices are so high is two things mainly:

1.) No new refineries have been built in roughly 25 years, due to
environmental rules and NIMBYs. Those already around are cranky
and very old, and bad things (TM) happen at them regularly; leading
to disruptions in the supply of gasoline, and hence prices going up.

2.) There's no longer a national gas market, due to so many different
"reformulated" brands of gasoline that each state requires; so you can't
ship surplus gasoline from one area to another to alleviate shortages.[/quote]

You took Number 2 from me.

Oh about american "Muscle Cars", just a note, the Corvette, with its big american V-8 producing 400 HP, only gets 1 mpg less than the Honda S2000.

The GTO is rated at 17/29 mpg (400HP)
the Vette at 18/28 mpg (400HP)
Mustang GT 19/25 mpg (300HP)
300c 17/25 mpg (340HP) (*Does not include Cylinder Deactivation)
the S2000 20/25 mpg (250HP)
the 350z 20/26 mpg (265 HP)
BMW M3 16/24 mpg (330hp)

You Euro-snobs need to learn that high displacement, does not equal low fuel economy

[RedImperator]

Change needs to happen or else the West and a great many others will fall when Global Peak Oil is reached.

Predictions of doom have always failed to come true before. Like the population bomb...

The population bomb isn't going to happen thanks to falling birth rates worldwide. If you're arguing that the oil doomsayers are wrong because rising oil prices will spur new technologies and lifestyles that reduce oil consumption, then you're probably right.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Not the US. All hail our Coal Deposits good for 3 centuries

Nor the UK, as we've imported coal for ages ever since the Tories ended our coal days so they could be sold off for far more in the future. But that won't bide our time with this impending crisis. Coal is also finite and also far harder to transport and dirtier; there's a reason gas and oil are used primarily over coal.

The idea is to shift away from such fuels and on to something far more reliable. Think about this, Shep. If we switch to hydrogen or ethanol, we'll be selling fuel to the Arabs, not the other way around. The US won't have to import fuel ever again unlike they do now, it'll be just like the period prior to the '70s. Anyone who opposes change in this respect is shooting themselves and their countrymen in the collective feet.

[Ekiqa]

2. West Virginia is in the center of the Appalachian Mountains. To build anything, you have to blast your way thru mountain ridges to get to the hollers where the creeks run, which is where the towns grew up over the years.
-- 2a. Some communities have rail lines remaining from coal-town days. 90% of those rails are in disrepair, some were even torn up during WWII for the iron. In some parts of the state, those rails run to the nearest river, not in the direction the commuter needs. The main lines are almost exclusively used by C&O rail freight. The only reason Amtrak runs thru the state on its way out west is because there is a Congressional Rider stating that as long as Amtrak accepts governmental funds there must be a train going to Charleston, WV. (Thank Sen. Byrd, again.)
-- 2b. The logistical and financial problems involved with reviving old lines and/or laying new lines far outweighs the money that might be saved in gas prices. There's just no money in passenger rails in this country, even back in the 1800's when railroads were king.

The vast majority of the infastructure work has already been done in order to lay rail lines.

Also, if they do get a rail commuter line running, it would enable people to get from their home to work with minimum cost to the people. Get all three levels of government to kick in money, and you've got it done.

Look at California and its rail network, it is booming.

You wouldn't need big trains, start with smaller, used equipment that is cheap, and you will find that you can save a fortune.

The very least would be to have a rail network around Charleston, and expand it from there.

Most major cities in North America have them, and the can cheaply move thousands of people.

[Admiral Valdemar]

You took Number 2 from me.

Oh about american "Muscle Cars", just a note, the Corvette, with its big american V-8 producing 400 HP, only gets 1 mpg less than the Honda S2000.

The GTO is rated at 17/29 mpg (400HP)
the Vette at 18/28 mpg (400HP)
Mustang GT 19/25 mpg (300HP)
300c 17/25 mpg (340HP) (*Does not include Cylinder Deactivation)
the S2000 20/25 mpg (250HP)
the 350z 20/26 mpg (265 HP)
BMW M3 16/24 mpg (330hp)

You Euro-snobs need to learn that high displacement, does not equal low fuel economy

On the contrary, I used that term because it applied in this case to Americans. I don't see the point in ANY big sports car today, so your comment is meaningless to me. Quite why people need such high amounts of horsepower and enough torque to rip asphalt to pieces and do 250 mph I don't know. It's more a status thing again, as with the off-roaders.

[MKSheppard]

Quite why people need such high amounts of horsepower and enough torque to rip asphalt to pieces and do 250 mph I don't know. It's more a status thing again, as with the off-roaders.

Because we can. And want to. And that's all we need to know.

[SirNitram]

The insulting part about all of this is that the factors leading up to it were all seen coming from years and years away. And we knew it'd all be financing the Arab powers, who happen to be a -leetle- too friendly with the islamic extremists who keep screaming about the evils of the West. And nothing was done, because everyone wanted to worship the All Mighty Bottom Line, which says never build a new refinery if you can simply run the old ones for more profit, etc...

[MKSheppard]

And nothing was done, because everyone wanted to worship the All Mighty Bottom Line, which says never build a new refinery if you can simply run the old ones for more profit, etc...

Actually, no it's because of the NIMBYs and EPA regs. Less trouble to keep
the old ones running than to build a new one and go through all the paperwork.