Darth Wong wrote:
Giant gas-guzzling luxury SUVs have nothing to do with off-roading and everything to do with assholes showing off their status symbols.
Truely, I think people need to distinguish between SUV's and the big boys. My 92 Jimmy is an SUV, a Jeep Cherokee is an SUV. What most people here are bitching about are the Excursion, Navigator, Tahoe, I would imagine the Suburban and the like.
Though the Tahoe is a nice offroad truck, expensive though.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Darth Wong wrote:LadyTevar, with all due respect, I don't buy the "it's bad terrain so we need SUVs" line at all. The fact is that most of the consumer SUVs (particularly the really big models that Tommy J is talking about) are shitty off-road vehicles because of their high mass and long wheelbase. If you want to go off-road or up in the mountains or through rough terrain, you get a relatively light and fuel-efficient jeep, not a Lincoln Navigator.
Giant gas-guzzling luxury SUVs have nothing to do with off-roading and everything to do with assholes showing off their status symbols.
Surprisingly, the Porsche offroader isn't that bad, it's probably the best of these new executive/sport vehicles, but still pales next to a Defender 90.
But then who needs those abilities when you're going down the road to pick up the kids on perfectly flat tarmac?
Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Surprisingly, the Porsche offroader isn't that bad, it's probably the best of these new executive/sport vehicles, but still pales next to a Defender 90.
But then who needs those abilities when you're going down the road to pick up the kids on perfectly flat tarmac?
I won't defend 'super soccer mom' and her 80 thousand dollar Hummer II. But a reasonable SUV (like my before mentioned Jimmy) and it's 4X4 action is a handy dandy thing when you live in the Rocky Mountains in winter.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Darth Wong wrote:LadyTevar, with all due respect, I don't buy the "it's bad terrain so we need SUVs" line at all. The fact is that most of the consumer SUVs (particularly the really big models that Tommy J is talking about) are shitty off-road vehicles because of their high mass and long wheelbase. If you want to go off-road or up in the mountains or through rough terrain, you get a relatively light and fuel-efficient jeep, not a Lincoln Navigator.
Giant gas-guzzling luxury SUVs have nothing to do with off-roading and everything to do with assholes showing off their status symbols.
Wong, with all due respect, the most common SUV seen on the street of West Virginia is a Jeep. Renegade, Cherokee, Liberty... it's all Jeeps. Except for the doctors and lawyers, they drive LandRovers.
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Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
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LadyTevar wrote:Wong, with all due respect, the most common SUV seen on the street of West Virginia is a Jeep. Renegade, Cherokee, Liberty... it's all Jeeps. Except for the doctors and lawyers, they drive LandRovers.
That's good to hear, but then why did you argue with Tommy J who was specifically complaining about giant luxury super-SUVs like Lincoln Navigators and Cadillac Escalades?
PS. Totally off-topic, but I did tooling for the headlights on the Lincoln Navigator when I used to work in the automotive industry.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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Knife wrote:
I do find it odd, though, that Byrd wants to invest billions in 'alternate fuel in America' yet IIRC he's not onboard in US drilling. I don't know where he stands on building new US refineries either.
Granted, conservation has it's place and idea's like Red's have great merit. Hell, me and the wife have been discussing buying on of those hybrids in a few years after they start getting sold used.
Over the years, Byrd has come to realize that there is a large portion of his representative population that believes in conservation, and doesn't agree with drilling in Alaska. There are also several investors in WV who are eyeing the possiblilty of building alternative fuel factories here, such as the coal gasification method. After all, WV is nothing but coal under these mountains, and the coal companies do supply money to Byrd's re-election fund.
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
Knife wrote:I won't defend 'super soccer mom' and her 80 thousand dollar Hummer II. But a reasonable SUV (like my before mentioned Jimmy) and it's 4X4 action is a handy dandy thing when you live in the Rocky Mountains in winter.
I don't think anyone is saying that if you've got the money don't buy an expensive car. But be responsible enough to buy an expensive car that is environmentally friendly and doesn't get 10/miles to the gallon only because you can. As Red pointed out, the people who buy a Navigator at about $40k-$50k aren't sweating the $50/tank to fill-up.
Someone said that the vast majority of people aren't driving these cars. Well, don't know anyone else's experience but in the parking garage at my office there's about 80 cars and I count about 10 of them that are 'larger' SUV's. I'd venture a guess that none of those people car pooled to work today.
Also, my angst is that where people have at least an option of riding public transportation they do not. Here in Atlanta we have a fairly good subway/train system that extends approximately 10 miles outside of the city in each direction. At each of the suburban train stations is free parking, yet the vast majority of the people are too lazy to even give it a try because it's slightly less convenient than riding in their cars/SUV's so they plow into the city everyday.
Part of the problem is our lifestyle choices. When you choose to live 50 km away from where you work and then commute to work every day, you choose waste. No matter what kind of car you drive, the choice of living so far away from where you work is inherently wasteful. The entire suburban lifestyle is built around this choice, so it is no exaggeration to say that for the last 50 years, we have been steadily promoting waste.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Darth Wong wrote:Part of the problem is our lifestyle choices. When you choose to live 50 km away from where you work and then commute to work every day, you choose waste. No matter what kind of car you drive, the choice of living so far away from where you work is inherently wasteful. The entire suburban lifestyle is built around this choice, so it is no exaggeration to say that for the last 50 years, we have been steadily promoting waste.
Often times that is not the fault of commuters. I live 5 miles from my office, my wife's school is less than 10 miles away. However, it is closing and to commute to her new school she has to travel a 30 mile loop around Narragansett Bay. However i'm willing to bet our 2.0 litre Honda Civics use less gas in that 30 mile highway trip than your 4.6 litre Mercury would use on the 10 mile trip down city streets.
"This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we’ll be lucky to live through it.” -Tom Clancy
Darth Wong wrote:Part of the problem is our lifestyle choices. When you choose to live 50 km away from where you work and then commute to work every day, you choose waste. No matter what kind of car you drive, the choice of living so far away from where you work is inherently wasteful. The entire suburban lifestyle is built around this choice, so it is no exaggeration to say that for the last 50 years, we have been steadily promoting waste.
Often times that is not the fault of commuters. I live 5 miles from my office, my wife's school is less than 10 miles away. However, it is closing and to commute to her new school she has to travel a 30 mile loop around Narragansett Bay. However i'm willing to bet our 2.0 litre Honda Civics use less gas in that 30 mile highway trip than your 4.6 litre Mercury would use on the 10 mile trip down city streets.
Additionally, for places like the Bay Area in California, it's simply impossible to live near your work. The housing expenses are so fucking insane in that region that middle class to upper middle class people simply have to accept long-ass transits if they're going to work in the metro areas themselves.
Darth Wong wrote:Part of the problem is our lifestyle choices. When you choose to live 50 km away from where you work and then commute to work every day, you choose waste. No matter what kind of car you drive, the choice of living so far away from where you work is inherently wasteful. The entire suburban lifestyle is built around this choice, so it is no exaggeration to say that for the last 50 years, we have been steadily promoting waste.
I've noted that a number of Americans seem to take 1 hour+ commuting times (each way) as normal. And many suburbs I've been to are essentially "car only" places. You couldn't walk if you tried - no/few sidewalks, no stores nearby except for corner stores, etc... And biking is also difficult because of the set-up - no "safe" places or routes to bike on.
So suburban design pretty much forces people to have a car. And often more than one. And unfortunately this isn't a purely American sin - a number of Canadian cities also have these suburban desserts, although to a lesser degree. The main thing Canadian cities have going is that the urban cores are generally stronger and more vibrant than their American counterparts, so living downtown is a realistic possibility. And the higher the population density of the urban core, the more realistic rapid transit is. Look at New York for the ultimate example in North America in my view. As a tourist, I was able to get around no problem on the subways once I was told to avoid "Express" trains.
Darth Wong wrote:No matter what kind of car you drive, the choice of living so far away from where you work is inherently wasteful. The entire suburban lifestyle is built around this choice, so it is no exaggeration to say that for the last 50 years, we have been steadily promoting waste.
Jobs are often in big cities. Big cities are often pretty expensive if you want to get a house or apartment. Here in germany you'll often end up paying 3-4 times as much if you buy a house/apartment close to a big city compared to a house 50km away and in the middle of nowhere.
Soccor moms ought to stick with Minivans. More room, better gas mileage, and funny thing is they are safer to boot.
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Jalnith, you don't get it. City living = fucking expensive. How much is a three bedroom apartment in the urban center of Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver? A hell of a lot, just like it costs a hell of a lot to live in urban New York, Boston or Los Angeles. Why, because for some reason millions of people want to live there. The suburbs are cheaper because the demand is less. Can you blame people for wasting resources if it saves them ungodly ammounts of money they really dont have?
"This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we’ll be lucky to live through it.” -Tom Clancy
Darth Wong wrote:Part of the problem is our lifestyle choices. When you choose to live 50 km away from where you work and then commute to work every day, you choose waste. No matter what kind of car you drive, the choice of living so far away from where you work is inherently wasteful. The entire suburban lifestyle is built around this choice, so it is no exaggeration to say that for the last 50 years, we have been steadily promoting waste.
Often times that is not the fault of commuters. I live 5 miles from my office, my wife's school is less than 10 miles away. However, it is closing and to commute to her new school she has to travel a 30 mile loop around Narragansett Bay. However i'm willing to bet our 2.0 litre Honda Civics use less gas in that 30 mile highway trip than your 4.6 litre Mercury would use on the 10 mile trip down city streets.
Additionally, for places like the Bay Area in California, it's simply impossible to live near your work. The housing expenses are so fucking insane in that region that middle class to upper middle class people simply have to accept long-ass transits if they're going to work in the metro areas themselves.
The Bart and Muni systems in Frisco are excellent. You can ride all the way into the city for less than $2.00 from Oakland where there is reasonable housing. This is yet unforuntely another example of many people being to lazy to use it and who would rather guzzle gas in their cars.
I've never been to London but from what I understand one can ride the 'tube' into the burbs as well for less expensive housing.
There's an option between "everybody pile into the city centers" and "everybody live way out in the exurbs and drive 90 minutes to work each day". There's a new philosophy in urban design called New Urbanism, where suburban neighborhoods are built dense and walkable, and centered on a small downtown with a transit station. Most of your daily errands can be done on foot, and you ride the train downtown to work. Portland, Oregon has done great work with this--unfortunately, such neighborhoods have turned out to be so desireable that they're still out of the middle-class price range. This could be fixed by building them faster, but developers are dragging their feet and fighting planning boards when they can. To make New Urbanism work, you have to stop zoning vast tracts of open land for residential development, and zone for mixed commercial-residential development.
New urbanism saves energy. It saves open space. It saves money for school districts (fewer buildings and buses needed), for utilities (dense communities need fewer miles of water, sewer, gas, telephone, cable and electric lines), for municipal governments (less to spend on road maintenence). It avoids the problems inherent in cramming everybody into big cities. And to judge by how popular New Urbanist neighborhoods are, the quality of life for the residents is better.
If I were the king, the first thing I'd do is freeze all Federal highway funding that isn't for maintenence of existing roads. Then I'd limit or freeze entirely home mortgages for new houses built in open space in neighborhoods below a certain population density. The highway money I'd shift into transit, and the mortgage money would go into increasing mortgage subsidies for middle class families trying to buy homes in dense suburban and urban neighborhoods--maybe even more for urban neighborhoods, which desparately need middle class families to move back in.
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For years, Nitram's dad lived in Connecticutt and took a 2hr train trip into NYC every day. This year, he was finally able to get a reasonably priced (for NYC) apartment only 20 blocks from his downtown office. This is because 1. He was lucky and 2. He's got bucks to spare.
Nitram and I are living on $18k/yr. The apartment we're renting is only one block away from where the slums start. We have to deal with drunks and druggies using our yard as a shortcut between the streets everyday. Hell, last fall I got attacked by three black girls in my own front yard! If we could afford better, hellyeah we'd get outta town, so we could have a front yard that isn't covered by discarded beer bottles.
But right now, we simply can't afford anything better, and if the gas prices go much higher, we won't be able to afford the $26 it took to fill my Dodge Neon, which gets 23mpg city driving. Add in the fact that the only grocery store within a mile closed 7yrs ago, and then you've got a real problem.
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
Something will give soon. I'm hoping it's the petroleum companies opposition to new fuels; if they had the fervor to get those on the market, I imagine we might get out of this relatively soon. Of course, that's 'relatively' in terms of new technologies saturating the market...
In the meantime, alot of people are gonna get screwed over. It's fun to blame the SUVs, and it's doubtless that they're partly to blame, but it's not like we didn't know this sort of thing was coming down the line. Finite resources + ever-increasing demand...
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I can't feel sorry for people complaining about high gas prices when they are unbelievably dirt cheap compared to prices around here...
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Dahak wrote:I can't feel sorry for people complaining about high gas prices when they are unbelievably dirt cheap compared to prices around here...
Well, if you want to look at the shipping and transpo buisness, how many tanks of gas would it take to get a tractor/trailor across the whole of Germany? Now how many would it take to get a tractor/trailor from NYC to LA?
Soccer moms and commuting put aside, high gas prices do effect all our goods and services since the truck companies have to now pass on the gass prices to buyers who then pass it on to consumers.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Dahak wrote:I can't feel sorry for people complaining about high gas prices when they are unbelievably dirt cheap compared to prices around here...
Well, if you want to look at the shipping and transpo buisness, how many tanks of gas would it take to get a tractor/trailor across the whole of Germany? Now how many would it take to get a tractor/trailor from NYC to LA?
You know, it's not as if I don't feel assraped at the end of the month when I check my oil bill. And I almost only drive during the weekends to go to the Alps, about 8 hours a week. And I would also appreciate a more potent car than my citroen saxo. I live in the city, but I pay a lot for the (tiny) apartment because of that - it sucks, believe me.
Colonel Olrik wrote:
You know, it's not as if I don't feel assraped at the end of the month when I check my oil bill. And I almost only drive during the weekends to go to the Alps, about 8 hours a week. And I would also appreciate a more potent car than my citroen saxo. I live in the city, but I pay a lot for the (tiny) apartment because of that - it sucks, believe me.
I don't doubt it and I don't want anyone to think it's just a 'poor American' thing. But alot of people jump on the 'Quit bitching, American' bandwagon too. High gas prices fuck everyone. Personally, I blame politicians for the mess but....
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
I would love nothing more than to be able to take a train or even a reliable bus.
Here in Vegas I don't trust the busses to arrive on time and the maps and routes are terrible to use and even worse to understand by the uninitiated.
There is no incentive for mass transit here. And the housing market is a joke. Thank G~d I work for the aparmtnet industry, or I wouldn't be able to afford to live on my own, I rely on my 20% discount
