Outbound Flight vs. Dominion

[IDMR]

YES!! I am the first to post on the vs. board!

It is somewhat tiresome to see all the 'wormhole' style vs. debates - where one side or another finds a point connection between the two universes/ galaxies. It creates a rather unrealistic strategic/ tactical model at least in terms of space combat.

So here is an even more unrealistic scenario:

The Outbound Flight, after a Long, long time, reached the Star Trek Galaxy, just beyond the galactic energy barrier on Federaton space.

The time: Shortly after the beginning of the Dominion War

How would the presence of a shipful of Jedi Masters affect the outcome of the war if at all?

[FireNexus]

I think the Jedi would be quite wary of the federation, or the dominion. Both are very totalitarian governments. One uses force ala the Empire, and the other uses a process of thought control to stop even the most basic of real human emotions.

The big difference between the jedi's dissapproval of agression and the federation's is that the Jedi pose a huge threat to anyone and everyone if they ever let loose these emotions. The federation simply wants to appeal to some morally superior fantasy they adapted from the Vulcans.

Make no mistake. In the world of Star trek, humans are a race of Vulcan wannabes. And, again, Vulcans suppress their emotions because otherwise, they pose a threat. The humans of the federation, however, are brought up in a society which makes being human seem "barbaric".

The Jedi on that craft would, most likely, find an out of the way planet and relax, using their solitude to become more and more attuned to the force, leaving the federation to it's own devices. With the exception, of course, of studying the odd similarities between the humans on their craft and the humans of Earth.

Then again, the odds of that craft EVER coming into contact with a federation craft are nil, since the federation actively patrols a very small portion of their space. I mean, their are races who've never come into contact with humanity inside the federation's territory...

[IDMR]

I think the Jedi would be quite wary of the federation, or the dominion. Both are very totalitarian governments. One uses force ala the Empire, and the other uses a process of thought control to stop even the most basic of real human emotions.

Well... not the most basic of real human emotions. Not all of them, at any rate.

The big difference between the jedi's dissapproval of agression and the federation's is that the Jedi pose a huge threat to anyone and everyone if they ever let loose these emotions. The federation simply wants to appeal to some morally superior fantasy they adapted from the Vulcans.

Humans do not really need the Vulcan to develop that idiotic philosophy - but I'll allow that they are strongly influenced by them. During the pre-federation (Enterprise era), Vulcan influence and human behaviour is clear enough. Logically during the early years of the federation (TOS era), as Vulcan's influence waned, they seemed rather less bound by it. Curiously, however, in the modern era (TNG, DS9, VOY), when Vulcan is even less important, its influence is actually more pervasive - or at least human behaviour had grown to resembled them without their influence.

Food for thought.

Make no mistake. In the world of Star trek, humans are a race of Vulcan wannabes. And, again, Vulcans suppress their emotions because otherwise, they pose a threat. The humans of the federation, however, are brought up in a society which makes being human seem "barbaric".

As previously stated, the Vulcan influence might or might not be coincidental.

The Jedi on that craft would, most likely, find an out of the way planet and relax, using their solitude to become more and more attuned to the force, leaving the federation to it's own devices. With the exception, of course, of studying the odd similarities between the humans on their craft and the humans of Earth.

Then again, the odds of that craft EVER coming into contact with a federation craft are nil, since the federation actively patrols a very small portion of their space. I mean, their are races who've never come into contact with humanity inside the federation's territory...

I agree. Although Jedi Masters do have a neck of being in the right (or wrong) places at the right time... perhaps they might run into them. One way or another, though, I would think that they would not intervene overmuch, given their attitude even within their home galaxy.

Boring.

[2000AD]

Personally I don't think that the Jedi would get involved on purpose. However, the hyperdrive technology on the shuttle , assuming it wasn't damaged in their long journey, would be very valuble to both sides, therefor I think that both the Fed and Dom would try and capture the Jedi and/or their shuttle. I think the Jedi would then take off for some planet away from both, using the faster hyperdrive to get to places that the two sides can't get to without years/decades of travel, and from there revert to the idea in an earlier post about settleing down and preparing themselves.

[Crayz9000]

The Outbound Flight, after a Long, long time, reached the Star Trek Galaxy, just beyond the galactic energy barrier on Federaton space.

The time: Shortly after the beginning of the Dominion War

How would the presence of a shipful of Jedi Masters affect the outcome of the war if at all?

Oh, dear. I feel like an unqualified expert on the subject, since I'm currently writing a story about exactly that.

Well, anyway...

Unknown ship aside, the six Jedi Masters would likely attempt to open discussions with the Federation, since their mission was to extend the influence of the OR. Once they're on friendly terms with the Federation, they may attempt to negociate a peace treaty between the Federation and Dominion. It would probably go sour, though. After that, I have no idea what might happen.

[Crayz9000]

Re: 2000AD

1. The Outbound Flight was no shuttle. There's no way it could have been anything smaller than a Corvette, and that's stretching it. For a long voyage like that, you need supplies, crew, and in short, everything to prevent the mission from going wrong.

2. I also don't particularly think that they could give the Federation hyperdrive technology even if they wanted to. Hyperdrives are a quantum leap beyond warp drive, and use completely different technologies.

Now there's the thing about their ship. Let's say that it's one of the hybrid cargo haulers/warships. I decided a year or so ago that a Bulk Cruiser would do the trick nicely. Now, from WEG, the typical Neutron Star B/CRS armament is 30 laser cannons. Extrapolate based off the ICS laser cannon stats, and you have a 600 meter ship that will be a real pain in the ass to catch.

[IDMR]

Oh, dear. I feel like an unqualified expert on the subject, since I'm currently writing a story about exactly that.

Well, anyway...

Unknown ship aside, the six Jedi Masters would likely attempt to open discussions with the Federation, since their mission was to extend the influence of the OR. Once they're on friendly terms with the Federation, they may attempt to negociate a peace treaty between the Federation and Dominion. It would probably go sour, though. After that, I have no idea what might happen.

::grins::

You do not happen to require an... editor, do you?

And a bulk cruiser full of jedi would be ISD Eliminator reversed...

[Falcon]

I think the outbound flight project must surely have been even larger and better equipped than a bulk cruiser type ship. They had no idea what they were going to meet, so they probably made sure that they had a well defended ship for safety. If I recall correctly Thrawn said he was the 'task force' commandar that destroyed the project, suggesting he had to have several ships to do the job. Also, the Jedi's wouldn't have wanted too large a crew due to supply considerations during intergalactic travel, so a droid slave ship also seems likely. Finally, the jedi would have probably wanted to carry spare parts in excess to those normally carried by a ship since they'd have no means of resupply. All that adds up to a rather large capital ship, destroyer or higher I'd say...

[XPViking]

I was under the impression that the Outbound project consisted of a fleet of ships. Certainly the Old Republic had the resources to put that together. Kind of like Colombus and his three ships.

XPViking

[Shadow]

2. I also don't particularly think that they could give the Federation hyperdrive technology even if they wanted to. Hyperdrives are a quantum leap beyond warp drive, and use completely different technologies.

I agree that they couldn't give hyperdrive to anyone, at least not fast enough to change war. However, I disagree that hyperdrive is a "quantum leap" beyond warp drive. The Federation seems to be close to transwarp, which is faster than hyperdrive. In "All Good Things..." they could apparently use transwarp based on warp 13. "Endgame" had Admiral Janeway making it to the Delta Quadrant right away, requiring transwarp.

[Cpt_Frank]

It takes them mere hours to cross distances for which the warp-users would need weeks or months. That IS a quantum leap in technology.
And by the way, anyone with a spaceship can use the Borg transwarp
conduits. You don't need to know anything about them to siply fly through that gate, and emerge from an exit somewhere.
And though transwarp may be faster, it's still inferior to hyperdrive, because it needs fixed installations to be employed, and the construction of this network is so fraile, it takes only a few well-placed shots to destroy a transwarp passage while youre in it.

[Shadow]

It takes them mere hours to cross distances for which the warp-users would need weeks or months. That IS a quantum leap in technology.
And by the way, anyone with a spaceship can use the Borg transwarp
conduits. You don't need to know anything about them to siply fly through that gate, and emerge from an exit somewhere.
And though transwarp may be faster, it's still inferior to hyperdrive, because it needs fixed installations to be employed, and the construction of this network is so fraile, it takes only a few well-placed shots to destroy a transwarp passage while youre in it.

They weren't using Borg transwarp conduits, probably more like a Voth-style transwarp. Where is your evidence Borg transwarp conduits require fixed installations? Borg transwarp conduits can only be destroyed when being entered or exited.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

However, I disagree that hyperdrive is a "quantum leap" beyond warp drive. The Federation seems to be close to transwarp, which is faster than hyperdrive.

Anyone smell a troll around here????

[Shadow]

Anyone smell a troll around here????

Do you have anthing to say? If there is anything wrong with my statement, why not point it out?

[Robert Treder]

Here, I'll point it out:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Hyperdrive

[Shadow]

speeds of roughly fifty million times c

"This hub connects with thousands of transwarp conduits--with end points in all four quadrants. It allows the Collective to deploy vessels almost anywhere in the galaxy within minutes."

[Robert Treder]

"This hub connects with thousands of transwarp conduits--with end points in all four quadrants. It allows the Collective to deploy vessels almost anywhere in the galaxy within minutes."

I fail to see how that quote indicates that transwarp conduits allow a vessel to travel at fifty million times c. Would someone please enlighten me.

[Guest]

I fail to see how that quote indicates that transwarp conduits allow a vessel to travel at fifty million times c. Would someone please enlighten me.

Our galaxy is 100,000 ly across. Voyager traveled 20,000 ly in about 2 min. This means crossing the galaxy in about 10 min, or 600,000 ly per hour. That is 5,259,600,000 times the speed of light. Therefore, transwarp is 105.192 times as fast as hyperdrive.

[Shadow]

That was me.

[FireNexus]

If I remember correctly, the federation attempted to switch to transwarp about a century before TNG, and failed quite miserably. Voyager never quite managed to produce a stable quantum slipstream, which 7 of 9 said is quite similar to transwarp.

Also, when Voyager attempted to jury rig their warp drives to act as transwarp drives, it didn't quite work. The only time they ever managed to use transwarp was when they stole Borg technology.

The Janeway transwarp deal was a possible future, cbased on the continued existence of the now-decimated Borg collective. Without them, the technological push into transwarp use will most likely not occur for quite a while, for simple lack of need, as the switch is obviously a very costly one.

The ferengi, I believe, would actually be the first to use transwarp in a mainstream capacity, as it would exponentially increase their profit-garnering capabilities.

However, the federation, after Janeway's future-shift, is decades if not one or two CENTURIES away from employing the transwarp drive in it's entire fleet. At least in my estimation.

[Guest]

Transwarp, at least Borg Transwarp has already been proven to be faster than SW hyperdrives on SB.

[Guest]

If I remember correctly, the federation attempted to switch to transwarp about a century before TNG, and failed quite miserably. Voyager never quite managed to produce a stable quantum slipstream, which 7 of 9 said is quite similar to transwarp.

Also, when Voyager attempted to jury rig their warp drives to act as transwarp drives, it didn't quite work. The only time they ever managed to use transwarp was when they stole Borg technology.

The Janeway transwarp deal was a possible future, cbased on the continued existence of the now-decimated Borg collective. Without them, the technological push into transwarp use will most likely never occur, for simple lack of need, as the switch is obviously a very costly one.

The ferengi, I believe, would actually be the first to use transwarp in a mainstream capacity, as it would exponentially increase their profit-garnering capabilities.

However, the federation, after Janeway's future-shift, is decades if not one or two CENTURIES away from employing the transwarp drive in it's entire fleet. At least in my estimation.

It happened in Q's future, too. Some GCS modifications from this future have already happened.

[IDMR]

To Shadow:

Go here, refute Wong's arguements with regards to the transwarp conduit network, and then talk. I would list the relevant bits, but I am busy right now. Perhaps I shall, later.

[Shadow]

That was me.

[FireNexus]

Sorry, but that happened, again, in a future based on the continuation of the Borg collective, among many other factors.

Show a canon example please, of what Apoc Entertainment has dubbed as the Galaxy-X modification occuring in modern Star Trek, with Transwarp drive being used. Regardless of if it happened or not (I seriously doubt it did) one or two ships is NOT the entire fleet, which is composed of several thousand starships.