Subspace Transporters?

[Mr Bean]

Anything will do as we know from ST lack of plot ideas even tin foil prevents transportation now-adays

The best bet is to do how REAL jammers work and thats Jam EVERYTHING
If you have a real military jammer working within 100 feet of your house then everything from Door openers to TV remotes to Microwave ovens, cable TV and unshield computers goes nuts

[TheDarkling]

Mr Bean : Geordi states it cant be blocked - im not saying thats proves it cant im simlpy saying it proves that its harder to block than normal transporters.

On a jamming front - if subspace comms jamming worked then he would have used it meaning that it isnt affected by that.

SirNitram: Im afriad you still failed to be civil.
Episode one of Deep space 9 takes place before the dominion war meaning you statement of jamming being unheard of before that is false and how can I prove it, I have the tape here and the Cardassian block comms and since yuo admit it happens in the dominion war whats the point in proving it anyway since you admit it goes on.

I will quote the reference I have, Im not sure on the validity its a Star wars RPG core book page 174 - "A variety of communication systems exist, all ships use at least one"

The three listed types are -Holonet Transceiver, Hypertransceiver and subspace transciever.

Under subspace transciever -"most starships have a subspace transciever for emergency signals"

Under HyperTransciever - " military vessels have these"

[SirNitram]

SirNitram: Im afriad you still failed to be civil.

You'll find I don't care.

Episode one of Deep space 9 takes place before the dominion war meaning you statement of jamming being unheard of before that is false and how can I prove it, I have the tape here and the Cardassian block comms and since yuo admit it happens in the dominion war whats the point in proving it anyway since you admit it goes on.

I'm asking you to prove it happened during the Subtrans incident, jackass. I know it happened in DS9, but not in TNG.

I will quote the reference I have, Im not sure on the validity its a Star wars RPG core book page 174 - "A variety of communication systems exist, all ships use at least one"

Yep. Most use Subspace, some use Hyperwave.

The three listed types are -Holonet Transceiver, Hypertransceiver and subspace transciever.

Under subspace transciever -"most starships have a subspace transciever for emergency signals"

But that's not talking about the ISD, is it? No, it isn't. Because the ISD's subspace systems aren't for emergencies. Jackass.

Under HyperTransciever - " military vessels have these"

Wow, yes.

And just to prove the point about me not being civil: Jackass, jackass, jackass. Asshole, asshat, asscrab. Hatfucker.

Unfortunately for you, I don't care about not being civil. I care about whether you can prove what you claim.

[Mr Bean]

Problem is the rest of us do care about being Civil SirNitram

This is not spacebattles, we are not a surrounded by friken idiots(At least not yet) and we do have a sense of Honor and Duity when it comes these verbal Battles

Petty insults get you no-where but onto peoples shit-lists/banned/ignored

Think Gandi would have gotten as much attention if he started out everything he said with "Listen up you dumb A-holes?"

[TheDarkling]

Yes and it seems you care a little too much.

I never said it happened there want I said was Geodi was under the impression that nothing known to the federation could stop subspace transporters - comms blocking is know to the federation, so you work it out.

Your statement that most use subspace seems to conflict with what I have ref - please show you Ref that say "most use subspace"

The last time I checked ISD's were military vessels - so until you put a quote on the table proving otherwise my argument seems to be favoured.

I find it interestnig that you can shout and scream yet when someone puts it in an email to the site with a pro trek tone its made fun of - prehaps you arent as mature as everyone else on the board seems to be - you are giving warsies a bad name but im sure you dont care.

[SirNitram]

I'm from ASVS. I'm an evil, evil warsie who uses the ICS, and makes calcs that wind up showing how pathetically underpowered Trek is. If I feel someone is being dishonest/stupid, I will say so.

If this makes me a bad man, feel free to ban me. Honestly.

As for the Subtrans: Allow me to provide this quote.

DATA
The Federation abandoned its
research in the field because the
technology was found to be
unreliable... as well as extremely
energy intensive.


That doesn't suggest, to me, something that's going to have more luck getting through 1) Heavy, frequency-less shielding. 2) Neutronium-impregnated armour. and 3) Radiation from the main engines and the reactor.

I've provided quotes on the ISD's subspace capabilities. It can scan the entirity of subspace in three hours. Does that sounds like a 'backup system' to you? No, not really. Sounds like they'd be listening for something more than distress signals. I can provide more quotes, if you'd like. Like how it's used for entertainment communications in some sectors(WEG).... Or how Hyperspace is sometimes referred to as Subspace(Corellian Trilogy, Attack On Corellia)...

[Crossover_Maniac]

You mean with the missing from two feet thing?

If so then Greedo missing Han Solo because in the special edition New Hope Greedo shoots first and misses even though they are about a table from each other.

Aparently GL didnt like the original version where Han Solo shot first because it made him look ruthless.

Han wasn't being ruthless. A man pulled a gun on him. Han had every right to vaporise Greedo's torso.

[TheDarkling]

Well the armor may stop it however it may also have no effect since it isnt extended into subspace - however that gets us debating how subspace works so we wont.

If the armor prevents it this still doesnt prevent Planetary bombing or using thetransporter on weak armored areas ie fighter bays or the Bridge Shield tower and once thats down normla fire could take the bridge or even placing a Torp on the bridge since the windows provide entry points - this however would negate alot of the use of the Subtrans but it would still be useful only it would need to be closer - close to firing range if not in it.

Hyperspace and subspace being the same is outside the scope of this discussion so I wont comment.

I was not being Dishonest and I dont think I was being stupid and im sorry if I gave the impression I was being either.

[TheDarkling]

Crossover_Maniac : Yes you are darn right he wasnt being ruthless even as a 7 year kid I knew it was kill or be killed yet GL has seen fit to alter it to take the edge off Han and insult our intelligence.

[SPOOFE]

I never said it happened there want I said was Geodi was under the impression that nothing known to the federation could stop subspace transporters - comms blocking is know to the federation, so you work it out.

And Admiral Motti called the Death Star "the ultimate power in the universe".

You're basing your entire argument on the assumption that Geordi was right. This assumption can only be accurate if Geordi was aware of Star Destroyers and their jamming capabilites. Obviously, he was not. Now, the possibility still exists that subspace transporters will slip right through Imperial jamming... but we don't know for sure. We DO know three things:

-Transporters are easily blocked.

-Subspace transporters are unstable. Compared to what? Regular transporters. So subspace transporters are more easily blocked.

-Imperials have subspace jamming.

That's three pieces of evidence that supports the notion that subspace transporters will not be effective against Imperial ships, with only one piece of unsteady evidence that indicates that they will.

[TheDarkling]

Im taking Geordi as an expert of subspace technology - he doesnt think subspace comns jamming will work so we take his word for it.

1. True

2. False - the Instability may be that the matter is unstable and could be damaged as happened with similar technology in The High Ground.
In fact Geordi says " To transport matter through subspace it must be placed in a state of quantum flux... its very unstable" this seems to indicate that hes talking about the matter and not the technology.
We also have evidence that shield cant block subtrans - in fact nothing Geordi can do will work meaning that evidence seems to indicate it is harder to block not easier.

3.True- Imps have subspace comms jamming and assuming parity subspace comms jamming doesnt work.

[SirNitram]

Im taking Geordi as an expert of subspace technology - he doesnt think subspace comns jamming will work so we take his word for it.

*sighs* No, he doesn't mention high-powered comms jamming, so this is a lie...

1. True

2. False - the Instability may be that the matter is unstable and could be damaged as happened with similar technology in The High Ground.
In fact Geordi says " To transport matter through subspace it must be placed in a state of quantum flux... its very unstable" this seems to indicate that hes talking about the matter and not the technology.
We also have evidence that shield cant block subtrans - in fact nothing Geordi can do will work meaning that evidence seems to indicate it is harder to block not easier.

He mentions it's unreliable. You can create excuses all you want, but that comes down to it succeeding less than normal ones. And the mere presense of heavy metals disrupts transporters, along with certain kinds of radiation. What kind? Hyperion. What RL things are Hyperions associated with? Hypermatter. What does Hypermatter do in Star Wars? Power Starships.

3.True- Imps have subspace comms jamming and assuming parity subspace comms jamming doesnt work.

Lie. Geordi didn't mention subspace jamming, nor do we have to assume the two sides apply the same amount of energy to Jamming.

[TheDarkling]

Im not Lying at all you are simply trying to ignore evidence.

Geordi says he doesnt think anything can stop Subtrans - comms jamming is known to the federation so therefore he doesnt think it will work.

He didnt mention anything specific so does that mean his statement that nothing will work infact means the exact opposite and thus its twisted around upon itself?

Yes he says its unrealiable but indicates that the matter can be damaged - you infer easily blocked when no evidence supports this and evidence is present that in fact contradicts this.

You also have a block of evidence there - I have a quote from SD.net
Why are all of these different arguments lumped together? Take a wild guess- they all belong to the "looks are everything" school of thought.

Those two reasons are seperate yet you link them to try and give them weight - you say jammers work yet say if they dont then the hull works and so on.

The hull and radiation matters are dead locked since we cant prove anything either way and I have already pointed out weakness in the hull as entry points.

The two sides may not apply the same power to jamming however applying that power to block differents things may render the jammers useless as such we must assume parity - that is widely accepted.

[SPOOFE]

Im taking Geordi as an expert of subspace technology - he doesnt think subspace comns jamming will work so we take his word for it.

And what, exactly, does Geordi say about the jamming? Further, what kinds of jamming is Geordi familiar with?

False - the Instability may be that the matter is unstable and could be damaged as happened with similar technology in The High Ground.

Conversely, the instability may be that the transporter itself is unstable. Your assumption is just as good as mine. Ergo, we don't know, so ergo, the tactic cannot be used as a reliable debating tool.

[TheDarkling]

As stated we simply take Geordi to be familiar with subspace jamming because it is known to the Federation.

Theres evidence pointing to the Subtrans being less easy to block both from the evidence shown and that Geordi implies it he also makes a statement to that fact removing Geordi's claim on instability since it can be interpreted still leaves evidence for it being harder to block yet no evidence against.

That is easy to see but you are simlpy trying to distort the facts and render the technology null and void because you wish it not to work - you have started by assuming that it doesnt work and tried to prove it instead of looking at the evidence and coming to a conclusion based on that.

[Cpt_Frank]

Now this post is drifting into the "we haven't seen imperial shields stop phasers so they probably can't" regions.
Geordi was obviously not familiar with the heavy jamming techniques the Imperials use.
He was obviously convinced that the low powered comm blockers the Feds use wouldn't be enough to stop the subtrans.
In Star Trek, EM warfare has never played the important role it plays in Star Wars.
Conclusion: SW features jamming techniques unknown to ST.

[TheDarkling]

Cpt_Frank : I will grant that however it still incertain that empire jamming would block it - which is why we assume parity - if not then it cant be proved either way howeverusing the device against planets which dont have jammers would still work - do Imps constantly have jammers on? if not the several light year range may give thee Feds jump on the imps.

You conclusion is valid they do have unknown jamming techniques but you could also say the fact that transporters is unknown to SW weakens them and they dont know about phaser etc - which we start down that road any sort comparision become problematic.

The problem seems to be for the Feds tricks and such to work we have to take parity and best guesses - it seems like you dont wish to do that and wish to assume that its void because it cant be proven.

That sems fair until we realise that the Feds solve most problems by using tricks so to disallow them weakens the Feds greatly for example imagine simply disallowing turbo lasers.

Conclusion - Assuming Parity

Works against ships and Planets.

Not assuming Parity.

Ships with jammers activated - Unknown.
Ships wih jammers offline - Possible
Planets - Possible.

[Mr Bean]

Hmm its think it falls under the works once but not agian

As far as I know Star Destroyers operate under the same tatics most modern ships do. Enter Battle Jammers on, If you want to let people know your there, Jammers on

Also you have to remeber that ST does not know what the entirer of a Star Destroyer looks like and as we've seen in a few epsodes beam somthing into a wall it gets sliced up

So beaming a torp into a ship might resoult in a few smushed crewmemebers rather than any real explosish

And since weird things like that make ships spin up readyness and assume another ship is attacking them probably would be the end of that tact as they turn jammers on preparing for battle assuming they are facing a cloaked enemy start the full sensor scann and crank the jammers up


Also unknow is certain raditions, materials and objective condistions block ALL transporters as its be said above.

[Cpt_Frank]

The sensor range of SW vessels clearly exceeds several light years.
As such, they'll be able to put up jamming within a several light year radius.
The main thing which bugs me about the subtrans is that it is a typical cop-out to avoid defeat by a superior enemy, as often deployed in the ST show.
However, we don't fight on Star Trek's conditions here.
Saying "they always found a way out so the subtrans will probably work here" is just as false as saying "the good guys always win".
We have provided evidence during this post that the Empire's jamming is likely to stop them due to factors mentioned during earlier posts.
It is also possible that the shields and the heavy materials in the hulls will prevent them from using the device, but we don't rely on that.
However the chances jamming will work are pretty good, so I would change
ships with jamming - we don't know
to
ships with jamming - the subtrans is likely to be affected and we assume jamming will work.
As far as ships without jamming is concerned:
Every SW capship features heavy jamming equipment.
Their sensor range is great and the ST ships are relatively slow.
So if a ST ship approaches them they will be aware of it long before
the ST ship comes into subtrans range.
And a battle ready SW ship has not only shields and weapons, but also the jamming equipment powered up. As such, the chances of a ST ship ambushing a SW ship without jamming are zero.
As to planets:
We have to assume the planet is not guarded by a ship, because otherwise there would be the jamming.
So I ask you: What is the use of beaming on an undefended planet?
If there's an important military facility on that planet, you can be sure there will be ships to guard it.
And disallowing TLs is not the same as disallowing ST to deploy fancy tricks.
And I say it again: We provided evidence it would be stopped.
Saying it will work anyway because it's always like that on the show is not a valid argument.

[TheDarkling]

The point is we dont know if jamming would work or not - we dont know where jammers concentrate their energy - the affect on sunspace could be small if at all.

I have read books where ships have hid in system and not been detected -in ROTJ sensor need line of sight to establish the ships are there so SW sensors arent that beuong reproach and they will be looking for what they are used to if they dont have subspace sensors which there is no proof they do then detecting a St ship will be differcult.

I never said seubtrans will work because it always did because that would be false reasoning.

An x wings comms system vercomes jammers at near 0 distance so subspace jamming cant be that powerful - comm system jamming is different in nature to sensor jamming.

Sensor jamming involves misleading the sensors with false readings or simply flooding the sensors with too much data to handle.

Comms jamming tends to be a flood the channels with static affair.

Now since an x wing was sitting on the death stars jammers - the most powerful jammers yet since due to shear numbers and power available - they could still communicate with Yavin 4 meaning an X wings subspace signal was more powerful than the static the death star was pumping out.

From the reasons above I could draw the conclusion jammers wont work - we have evidence that comms jamming doesnt work but no evidence that comms jamming will work.
However you can draw other conlusions meaning its unknown.

Jammers cut down on affective sensors range (Ref Sd.net) so if jamming is always active sensor range is reduced so in non battle situation jamming will be off until an enemy is detected.

The ability for a normal ship to jam for an entire planet is stretching things a liitle in ROTJ a special jamming ship is needed to block the rebels sensors from working so that means any plannet being protected would need a fleet (once again the fact that planetary shields are negated is enough to make the technology of note - one less advantage the imps have.)

You provided evidence that it may be stopped - I provided evidence it may not so its dead locked.

Yes it is the same SW use TL and ST use fancy tricks - by disarming trek you weaken their position by a large amount - trek also uses its crews brains and science training to think on the spot = another thing the argument disallows.

Yes it maybe a cop out for the show but the fact is tricks are standard federation pratice and in any war the federation would use them.

MRBean: Yes there is a high probability that some torps would end up non operational but if a colony was beaming in upto a 100 some would get in unharmed -especially in the wide open spaces like fighter bays.

Radiations etc do block standard Fed transporters we have never seen them block subTrans or any another non fed transporters - so saying they block ALL transporters is over stating - we simply do not know what effect would be the result of the two meeting.

Armor can be bypassed as I have shown before and for radiation Im not sure on range of the radiation so I cant comment.

[SirNitram]

What is this 'parity' nonsense?

You seem to be saying to ensure parity, we must allow the Subtrans to work, despite it being described as unreliable(In context of Transporters in general, which are unlikely as hell to puncture Imperial armour, shielding, and the background radiation of even a small convoy). Your defense is that if we don't assume 'parity', shields could be ineffective against phasers.

Shields block incoming fire. This is a truth and absolute. There are no shield-skipping weapons at all in Star Wars, so there's no reason to assume there's any way -to- skip shields. Hence it's a load of dung to claim otherwise.

Transporters, however, get blocked all the time, by jamming, certain metals, radiation, thunderstorms... The list goes on. Yet you claim you SubTrans must be omnipotent, and I quote, Because Geordi Said So. Geordi, it should be noted, is the one who calls this technology unreliable in comparison to normal transporters. Yet you claim we must allow the Subtrans to ignore high-energy, multi-LY jamming, because of your bizarre concept of 'Parity', which sounds like a Golden Mean Fallacy in a different suit.

[TheDarkling]

I simply mean that until proven otherwise we assume SW and ST shields react the same - there are no transporters in SW either does that imply they dont work at all?

We therefore assume that the comms jammers are also the same in use and function meaning they wont work.

Back ground radiation stopping transporters - I think thats a bit over the top.

I didnt claim they are all powerful the armor may stop them however I have already addressed this 6 times.

The Radiation - im not sure on range so I cant comment.

I dont imply that it works because Geordi says so - Geordi doesnt know everything however being an engineer he would know of subspace jamming and he doesnt mention this as a defense - This the 3rd time I have restated this also.

Prove jamming of subspace happens and prove it is very powerfull - it cant even overcome Lukes X wings comms and hes sitting on the biggest jammer known to exist.

Are you simply going to repeat the same argument until I give up because I dont want to retype the same sentence over and over?
Thats hardly sporting - I thought the point was to work out how would win however it seems to be prove that your side will win no matter what you must do.

[Mr Bean]

Few quick thing

Prove jamming of subspace happens and prove it is very powerfull - it cant even overcome Lukes X wings comms and hes sitting on the biggest jammer known to exist.

There are ways around jamming like say good old line of sight lasers And they mention in a few EU books that Jammers VS breaking through has be going on for so long that they are at a stalemate right now in SW unvierse, They can easly jam LONG range communcations but short range are just as good as jammers at evading jamming

Prove jamming of subspace happens and prove it is very powerfull

One of the reason they went down the Trench to begin with instead of flying in from the top was because the jammers where messing up the targeting computers from a strait Vertical run

And the reason they keep saying the same things over and over agian is in the vain hope you get what they are trying to say

1. Transporters are unreable
2. Things based on Transporters are unreable
3. Jammers mess up things
4. Ship with Jammers on no way its working
5. Ships with jammers off, MAYBE, just maybe however and we don't know how often ISDn's keep there jamming on, though we do know they turn it on when they enter combat
6. Is any Trecky commander going to be smart enough to do this?

[TheDarkling]

1. Yes they are.
2.Not so sure but I wont disagree.
3.Indeed they do.
4.Disagree for reasons stated before.
5.Well I would think that shields would be no problem however the armor could block it - use weak areas as stated and Radiation im not sure on it.
6.Well That wasnt the subject of this discussion I said "would it work" not "would it allow the Feds to deafeat the empire".

The sensors may not be subspace based - no evidence for but evidence against (Subspace sensors are ancient tech and ships can be detected in hyperspace, the MF uses EM based sensors in combat) meaning sensor jamming has no relation to subtrans except to prehaps block the feds sensors - thus blind transport.

I answered everyone of your points so I understand the points I just give evidence to the contray but instead of commenting on what I say I get the same evidence back in return.

[SirNitram]

I simply mean that until proven otherwise we assume SW and ST shields react the same - there are no transporters in SW either does that imply they dont work at all?

No, it implies the Empire doesn't destroy and clone it's troops. Anyway, the shields don't act the same. Federation shields have a definate frequency, a glaring weakness to be exploited, SW shields don't. Also, SW shields come in two flavours, Ray and Particle, whereas there is only one kind of shield in ST.

We therefore assume that the comms jammers are also the same in use and function meaning they wont work.

In SW, jamming technology is more advanced, puts out more power, and actually warps timespace. Jamming technology is very rare in ST, and I'd be surprised if the Federation did know of it before DS9, since they never used it when it could be useful.

Back ground radiation stopping transporters - I think thats a bit over the top.

It's happened in ST. It is Canon. What's next, the Death Star's main gun's power of 1e38 Joules(That's a one followed by 38 zeros) being 'over the top'?

I didnt claim they are all powerful the armor may stop them however I have already addressed this 6 times.

How do you 'address' armour? Go through the hangar bay? So you're going to magically be right under the ISD with zero adjustment needed for a straight transport in?

The Radiation - im not sure on range so I cant comment.

Symbiosis:

RIKER: I'll beam over with a team.
TASHA: Captain -- I strongly recommend against anyone from this ship beaming over. The solar interference is too great.

Ensigns Of Command:

DATA: Hyperonic radiation also interferes with ship's transporters; they are now inoperable.

NOTE: Hyperions are directly associated with Hypermatter in RL study, so it is not a leap in logic to assume Hyprmatter in SW is also associated with it. Granted, Hypermatter in RL is the deep fringe of science, but if ST can play tricks in the backrooms and research halls...

Tin Man:

O'BRIEN: I lost the transporter lock on them. Some kind of force field went up.
WORF: Confirmed. The alien has thrown up a shield -- it's blocking all our sensors.


Legacy:

RIKER: O'Brien! Lock onto Ishara and get her out of here!
O'BRIEN: There's a transformer substation directly above the chamber she just entered. It's masking her signal.

Note: A transformer? There's one of those in my stereo.

DATA: No sir. The spatial rupture is creating severe nucleonic
interference. It is impossible to obtain a positive lock on the bulkheads.

Note: This is shown literally when the shielded reactor of the Carrier USS Enterprise makes transport difficult, in The Voyage Home.

I dont imply that it works because Geordi says so - Geordi doesnt know everything however being an engineer he would know of subspace jamming and he doesnt mention this as a defense - This the 3rd time I have restated this also.

And you still ignore him calling them unreliable. Not surprising at all. Not surprising at all

Prove jamming of subspace happens and prove it is very powerfull - it cant even overcome Lukes X wings comms and hes sitting on the biggest jammer known to exist.

No, the DS was not the biggest jammer to ever exist. It was the biggest gun to ever exist. The jamming was not exceptional, no one commented on it being so. It should also be noted they could use radio or other lightspeed comms in this, as they were close to the base.

As for proving the Subspace jamming would be that powerful? The power of an Acclamator, I beleive, was quoted in this thread. An ISD is vastly larger and more powerful than it. Are you telling me they can't put more power out than a Fed ship?

Are you simply going to repeat the same argument until I give up because I dont want to retype the same sentence over and over?

That depends, will you ever deal with the fact Transporters are blocked by nearly everything, and a Subtrans is described as unreliable in comparison to that?

Thats hardly sporting - I thought the point was to work out how would win however it seems to be prove that your side will win no matter what you must do.

I'd love to hear what dishonesty I'm pulling, really. Tell me. I'd love to hear it.

Of course, you're probably just mad because I keep showing that A) An Imperial starship is a few orders of magnitude more powerful than the best of the Federation and B) Transporters are worthless.