Useless Treknology

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Darth Wong
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Useless Treknology

Post by Darth Wong »

Howdy, folks. I haven't had time for much in the way of site updates lately, and it'll be a while before I can make another big update. I've got a lot of ideas running around in my head, so I thought I'd just start another controversy by leaving one here for your amusement:

From my own canon database, it is obvious that virtually all Treknology would be useless against SW ships. Seriously. Phasers, transporters, sensors, communications, even phase-cloaks and subspace transporters ... all useless.

Consider the facts: Treknology is heavily dependent upon "subspace". We don't know exactly what subspace is, but we can gather from observation that subspace is a phenomenon which makes energy and matter less interactive with the normal universe, thus allowing sensor beams and even physical objects to pass through solid barriers.

We know from TNG (see my database) that subspace sensors can scan through rock, but not through actinides (ie- heavy metals), as well as a variety of other high-density metals. This is no small matter; in fact, it is huge. You see, virtually all Treknology is dependent upon subspace. And subspace is important because matter or energy in subspace can pass through solid objects (energy more easily than matter, hence the dangers of the subspace transporter).

This is why a subspace transporter can put a man in the middle of the Enterprise-D's reactor room. This is why a regular transporter can do the same if it is not stymied by shields or electrical storms or any of the other myriad potential problems. This is why their sensors can scan objects through a kilometre of solid rock. This is why a subspace-phased ship can pass through rock.

But there's a downside, boys and girls: what if your opponent uses a warship which is entirely cladded with heavy metals or worse yet, an exotic material which is impregnated with a superdense material such as neutronium? Since the magical penetrative characteristics of subspace are useless against heavy metals, it seems likely that any and all subspace-related technologies are useless too.

Ergo, since we know that subspace sensor beams can pass through miles of rock but bounce off a thin layer of heavy metals (or even heavy metal-bearing natural ores), there is no reason whatsoever to believe that any of their cute subspace toys would do anything against the heavy-metal hull of an Imperial warship, even if it is unshielded. No regular transporters, no subspace transporters, no phase-cloaks, nada, zilch, zippo. This means they're basically reduced to torpedoes and prayer.

I'm sure the Trekkies will flame for this. I wonder if they believe it will bother me :)
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Post by Mr Bean »

I'm guessing in a Word No


But then agian as I say over and over agian this is what happens when you have story lines written by Hobos who are working for Sandwhichs and the Orginal Author goes elsewhere

(Witness he said no to alot of things but never YES to anything during Next Generation, His ideas where not much included he just edited at that point look at TOS VS TNG in weapons and praticlaity and ship desgin and I could go on but I hope I don't need to)

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Post by Doomriser »

Good point, Mike, but it is not that revolutionary. I mean, you and the rest of the Wars side have been asserting this for years. Take photon torpedoes for example. They have very little destructive effect, yet have high funky electrical effects and possible subspace effects. So while they might cause great damage to Treknology, they would not sratch SW ships. Or those Son'a subspace weapons from ST: Insurrection. A ST ship that launches one of those things against an ISD will find that the weapon tracks the only warp core in the area - the one belonging to the ST vessel!
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Post by VF5SS »

Looks like the Trek pooch got screwed again.
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(sigh)

Post by DarkStar »

Neutronium in Star Wars isn't the stuff from neutron stars. The Star Wars Encyclopedia calls it a heavy metallic element. Neutron star neutronium is not an element -- you need protons for that -- and sure isn't a metal. Not to mention the fact that it is an ore on a moon in Star Wars.

If it was real neutronium, a 42 terajoule collision with an asteroid wouldn't have dented an ISD. Instead, it destroyed the bridge tower, neck, and possibly resulted in the destruction of the whole ship (if you go by the novel).
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Re: (sigh)

Post by Pablo Sanchez »

DarkStar wrote:If it was real neutronium, a 42 terajoule collision with an asteroid wouldn't have dented an ISD. Instead, it destroyed the bridge tower, neck, and possibly resulted in the destruction of the whole ship (if you go by the novel).
Do I need to explain the difference between the hull and the viewport? See, the asteroid hit the front of the ISD's bridge tower, which is covered with nice, big windows. Why don't you try throwing a rock at a wall, then throwing the same rock at a window (vandal!). There will be a significant difference.

Even if it isn't real neutronium, and it's "just" a very dense metal, it still means nothing to this debate. Subspace weapons will still be incapable of making an impression.
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Re: (sigh)

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
DarkStar wrote:If it was real neutronium, a 42 terajoule collision with an asteroid wouldn't have dented an ISD. Instead, it destroyed the bridge tower, neck, and possibly resulted in the destruction of the whole ship (if you go by the novel).
Do I need to explain the difference between the hull and the viewport? See, the asteroid hit the front of the ISD's bridge tower, which is covered with nice, big windows. Why don't you try throwing a rock at a wall, then throwing the same rock at a window (vandal!). There will be a significant difference.

Even if it isn't real neutronium, and it's "just" a very dense metal, it still means nothing to this debate. Subspace weapons will still be incapable of making an impression.
Well, if it is not real neutronium. How are you going to prove that it would be considered dense by Starfleet?
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Well, if it is not real neutronium. How are you going to prove that it would be considered dense by Starfleet?
Re-read Wong's first post in this thread.
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Post by VF5SS »

The fact that people can live around these high density ores for one thing...
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Post by Singular Quartet »

VF, your sig just became your statement.

And wong, what debate: Funny Ore in the hills prevent Transport? Funny clouds in the sky prevent both transport and communications? Please, this is a useless point! But then, I suppose some idiot trekkie could bring up the episode where they use the Tractor beam to drag a piece of the core of a Neutron star (sic)
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Post by VF5SS »

No seriously, if people can live around dense materials that block all subspace uses without suffering from radiation posioning, how dense can they be? Is this some magic ore denser than uranium that doesn't go through some form of decay?
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Post by Singular Quartet »

VF5SS wrote:No seriously, if people can live around dense materials that block all subspace uses without suffering from radiation posioning, how dense can they be? Is this some magic ore denser than uranium that doesn't go through some form of decay?
Nah, you just use the same method Chinese takeout places use to pack a ten to twelve full servings into a box smaller than two harddrives duct taped together. And if you think I'm kidding, order the "Endless box of Noodles."

But seroiusly, same preincples. Just pack whatever really tightly, kick the gravity way up, and *poof* instant high-density armor. For all we know, ISD armor could be solidfied Hydrogen held together at 1000 Gs. Considering some of the acceleration figures I've seen for X-wings, this is fully resonable.
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Post by Zoink »

Very easy way to stop Trekkie technology:

Magnesite (MgCO3, Magnesium Carbonate)

Whenever Trek needs some material to block a transporter beam, sensors, whatever, its invariably Magnesite. I pick up on that detail because I used to live next to a mine that mined for that stuff. I laugh whenever I heard it. In real life, they use it to make high temperature ceramic bricks, but other than that its not any more special then, say, limestone.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Whats called neutronium in Star Wars isnt what we call neutronium since theirs occurs on a planets surface or slightly below it, now it may have a higher density than normal metals but calling it super dense and implying its on a level similar to our neutronium is a bit far fetched.
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Re: Useless Treknology

Post by Howedar »

Darth Wong wrote:No regular transporters, no subspace transporters, no phase-cloaks, nada, zilch, zippo. This means they're basically reduced to torpedoes and prayer.
I don't know if I'd go that far. It seems that phasers have some effect against heavier metals, albeit a very limited one. The Feds might be able to scratch an ISD's paint with them.
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Post by SirNitram »

I love the Trekkie 'SW Neutronium Iz BAD!' chant.

Witness the facts, folks.

SW Neutronium:

Very dense.
Metallic.
Useful as armour.
Can be mixed with other things.

ST Neutronium.

Very dense.
Metallic(most of hte time).
Useful as armour.. Negates Starfleet weapons entirely!
Can be mixed with other things.




Hrrrrrrrrrrrm. Pretty damning evidence, I'd say. They do the exact same stuff. Granted, neither are from Neutron Stars, but the shoes fit...
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Post by TheDarkling »

In most cases the transporters dont seem to be an issue as much as the sensors be interfered with - this cant get a lock stuff, this also explains why its easier to beam from the ship than to it.

This also could explain pattern enhancers (I may be wrong on this because I cant remember how they state there function) since they may give sensor data to the ship and thus enable transport - (Enhance the atomic pattern???) but I would have to look into this further.

The reasoning behind this - once again guees work would be that to scan someones atomic structure from 40,000km away is some sensor resolution and thus small variances like thunderstorms etc could overwhelm such sensitive equipment.

This being said there is a case or two when heavy metals have blocked a transporter and it hasnt been sensor related.

I will reserve judgement on my personal pet theory of the subspace transporter until I investigate further.
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Post by TheDarkling »

SirNitram: Thats funny I heard a pro wars argument that claimed it was "real" Neutronium but held in place using some sort of superstrong artificial gravity field technology.

I also believe something was mentioned about Clarke's 2nd law - I think my memory is vague.

Which is possible......

However that doesnt account for it being on a planets surface or thereabouts.

No if someone takes the above theory and applies it to trek Neutronium since its usual used on super advanced ships then Trek Neutronium could in fact be real Neutronium as we would assume it to be.

Since we dont see normal ST Neutronium siting around on planets in raw form theres nothing to discount the above.

Now I wonder how many people supported the above when it was pro wars and will now decry it because its pro trek, well I guess we will soon find out.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

TheDarkling wrote:SirNitram: Thats funny I heard a pro wars argument that claimed it was "real" Neutronium but held in place using some sort of superstrong artificial gravity field technology.

I also believe something was mentioned about Clarke's 2nd law - I think my memory is vague.

Which is possible......

However that doesnt account for it being on a planets surface or thereabouts.

No if someone takes the above theory and applies it to trek Neutronium since its usual used on super advanced ships then Trek Neutronium could in fact be real Neutronium as we would assume it to be.

Since we dont see normal ST Neutronium siting around on planets in raw form theres nothing to discount the above.

Now I wonder how many people supported the above when it was pro wars and will now decry it because its pro trek, well I guess we will soon find out.

SW Neutronium:
Not stuff of neutron stars

ST Neutronium
Not stuff of neutron stars (see Iconian? Gateway)
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Re: (sigh)

Post by DarkStar »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Do I need to explain the difference between the hull and the viewport? See, the asteroid hit the front of the ISD's bridge tower, which is covered with nice, big windows. Why don't you try throwing a rock at a wall, then throwing the same rock at a window (vandal!). There will be a significant difference.
Did it occur to you how silly that was while you were saying it? You do realize that you're claiming the windowed areas are significantly weaker, right? And that therefore the Empire knowingly puts all of its highest ranking officers in the least protected parts of the ship?

If you were talking A-wing vs. Bridge window, that's one thing. That, I can understand.
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Post by DarkStar »

SirNitram wrote: ST Neutronium.

Very dense.
Metallic(most of hte time)
When was Star Trek neutronium a metal?
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Post by TheDarkling »

CmdrWilkens: Ahh but you forget the super advanced races have amazing magic like technology as stated - I heard this claim about why SW Neut was real Neut and some people seemed to believe it.

Neutronium is an ore thats mined in Wars, I cant remember this stated in trek anywhere however its been along time since I watched them so if you could give me a quote I will go about my business :)
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Post by SirNitram »

DarkStar wrote:
SirNitram wrote: ST Neutronium.

Very dense.
Metallic(most of hte time)
When was Star Trek neutronium a metal?
Iconian structure, Iconian gateways, the Think Tank ship all displayed metallic properties. Next victim please....
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Post by TheDarkling »

Transporters: they cannot beam through the Iconian structure, even though it was weak enough to be destroyed by the backwash from the probe rocket.

Hmmm not exactly the stuff of legend but to be fair we dont know how powerful the probe was.

However SD claims neutronium is weak here yet earlier in the thread...
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Post by tharkûn »

Uhh doesn't the federation have something that can scan through neutronium? I think I recall hearing that the feds determine something is "solid neutronium" which implies they can scan through it.


Only thing that might work besides "subspace crud" would be something like measuring neutrino diffraction ... off course that is a *helluvalot* of neutrinos. I don't think neutrons, x-rays, etc. will let you see inside.
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