Why the empire might not have the speed advantage after all

[Jake]

I'm considering this because the immense imperial speed advantage described in recent threads comes from their hyperdrive. To use a hyperdrive, a Star Wars spacecraft must use a designated hyperlane in order to travel safely. This is all well and good in their own galaxy because they have several previously established hyperlanes. However, if they were to invade the milky way, the empire will have to scout out new hyperlanes to be able to safely travel at ftl speeds. Considering the Corellian Run took approximately 1,000 years to complete and the corellian trade spine took over 19,000 years (and this is in their own galaxy), I have a faint feeling that the empire won't be conquering any federation worlds unless the wormhole puts them at one. Even if this happens, they're not going to be able to spread out anytime soon. What are your thoughts?

[Kythnos]

Considering the Corellian Run took approximately 1,000 years to complete and the corellian trade spine took over 19,000 years (and this is in their own galaxy), I have a faint feeling that the empire won't be conquering any federation worlds unless the wormhole puts them at one. Even if this happens, they're not going to be able to spread out anytime soon. What are your thoughts?

Do you have any clue how many years ago that was in the Star Wars universe?
You might want to factor in that this is a trade route and therefore only grows when it is profitable to do so.

[Imperial528]

IIRC, many of the major trade routes were scouted out when they still relied on hyperspace beacons to tell the ship where they were, since the required nav equipment at the time wasn't up to the task of navigating the route by itself, it needed some sort of external data input to follow (my guess is that the beacons housed more powerful computer systems capable of keeping track of more variables and to a superior degree of accuracy, which it then transmitted to craft in-range to use for their jump calculations). Chiss systems still work that way, although they tend to be faster in-network than Imperial systems. Out of network, and they're stuck with extremely short jumps.

EDIT: Also, one thing I just remembered is that in the latest Darth Bane novel, Bane has to go to a world in the deep core that was thought long lost, and his only information on where it is is the records of a long-collapsed hyperlane. Using short jumps, which made his trip measure in weeks rather than days, he was able to reconstruct the lane. Note that reconstructing a lane in the disc would be much easier, since it is not as dense as the deep core.

[Jake]

Do you have any clue how many years ago that was in the Star Wars universe?
You might want to factor in that this is a trade route and therefore only grows when it is profitable to do so.

These are two of eight are major hyperspace routes, so I'm guessing they are used for more than trade. The fact these routes were discovered early in the history of the star wars universe would only seem to further my point. Would the empire even have experience discovering new hyperlanes, or do they just use the ones discovered thousands of years ago? (This is a legitimate question, is there any evidence of the empire discovering new hyperlanes in its existence?)

IIRC, many of the major trade routes were scouted out when they still relied on hyperspace beacons to tell the ship where they were, since the required nav equipment at the time wasn't up to the task of navigating the route by itself, it needed some sort of external data input to follow (my guess is that the beacons housed more powerful computer systems capable of keeping track of more variables and to a superior degree of accuracy, which it then transmitted to craft in-range to use for their jump calculations). Chiss systems still work that way, although they tend to be faster in-network than Imperial systems. Out of network, and they're stuck with extremely short jumps.

Sorry, but how does this relate to the actual speed of discovering new hyperlanes?

EDIT: Also, one thing I just remembered is that in the latest Darth Bane novel, Bane has to go to a world in the deep core that was thought long lost, and his only information on where it is is the records of a long-collapsed hyperlane. Using short jumps, which made his trip measure in weeks rather than days, he was able to reconstruct the lane. Note that reconstructing a lane in the disc would be much easier, since it is not as dense as the deep core.

Wasn't he using the force to assist him? (That's what I remember from the book, although I may be wrong).

[Jake]

Edit:
Darth Bane also had the old hyperlane as a point of reference. The empire will have absolutely no hyperlanes (even old, collapsed ones) to use as a starting point when they arrive at the milky way.

[fallendragon]

Ummm what the others were trying to point out was that when those hyperlanes were done, there were technological limitations that are no longer in place.

Thus taking that data with no effort to use more recent data is kind of misleading... at best.

[Jake]

Reply with quote
Ummm what the others were trying to point out was that when those hyperlanes were done, there were technological limitations that are no longer in place.

Thus taking that data with no effort to use more recent data is kind of misleading... at best.

I take it you mean that when the hyperlanes were being established, there were technology limitations that no longer existed afterwords. Specifically, as imperial528 mentioned, hyperspace beacons that became outdated after these hyperlanes were established. I checked the wookieepedia article and it seems that these beacons were used to facilitate travel on already established hyperlanes. That is, a ship would drop out of hyperspace at a beacon, which would direct the ship on where to jump to reach the next beacon along the route and etc. The advent of the navicomputer made it no longer necessary for spacecraft to make multiple jumps, hence making hyperspace travel faster. This has nothing to do with discovering new hyperlanes, only achieving faster speeds on already established ones. That means my question still stands, that is, is there any evidence that the empire has faster methods of discovering new hyperspace routes?

[fallendragon]

you mean besides probots?

[Big Phil]

Do you have actual evidence that demonstrates that hyperdrive is limited to dramatically lower speeds without a pre-mapped "lane?" Saying a trade route took 1000 years to create doesn't mean it took 1000 years to travel. Real world example, it took hundreds of years to develop the Silk Road, but it doesn't take hundreds of years even to crawl from Rome to Shanghai, never mind travel at the speed of a walking human, horse drawn wagon, or airplane.

[adam_grif]

If it was as simple as flying from point A to point B and there was no significant problems in flying around in places you haven't "mapped out" for hyperspace travel, why would they need to create such trade lanes in the first place? That hyperspace "routes" even exist as opposed to just flying wherever you want implies that it must be either slower or more dangerous (or both) to not use them.

It can't be as simple as knowing where the stars and similar phenomena are going to be and when, because if that was the case then you would be able to work out the entire galaxy's hyperspace routes in a matter of months or (at most) a few years just by having some space telescopes, mapping out the nearbye stars then jumping into the next lot. You wouldn't even need a telescope that was all that powerful since you can hyperspace to the next lot of stars.

[fallendragon]

No data I have found for the indecation of it being slower, but it HAS been stated as more dangerious, then again the Old Republic got around it easily with the use of probe droids.

[Imperial528]

Reply with quote
Ummm what the others were trying to point out was that when those hyperlanes were done, there were technological limitations that are no longer in place.

Thus taking that data with no effort to use more recent data is kind of misleading... at best.

I take it you mean that when the hyperlanes were being established, there were technology limitations that no longer existed afterwords. Specifically, as imperial528 mentioned, hyperspace beacons that became outdated after these hyperlanes were established. I checked the wookieepedia article and it seems that these beacons were used to facilitate travel on already established hyperlanes. That is, a ship would drop out of hyperspace at a beacon, which would direct the ship on where to jump to reach the next beacon along the route and etc. The advent of the navicomputer made it no longer necessary for spacecraft to make multiple jumps, hence making hyperspace travel faster. This has nothing to do with discovering new hyperlanes, only achieving faster speeds on already established ones. That means my question still stands, that is, is there any evidence that the empire has faster methods of discovering new hyperspace routes?

I also pointed out that with a navigation computer, it isn't a very hard thing to reconstruct a lost or collapsed hyperlane (the only difference between a collapsed one and an unknown one is that you know the location of the planet you're looking for, but not the route.) And as I pointed out, reconstructing a lane doesn't take much longer than it would to travel it, even in the deep core regions.

Because these lanes were constructed before navicomputers, they would have had to shoot probes out which are streaming data back at them, wait until all of the probes die from hitting some hazard, and jump alone the path taken furthest. Place beacon. Repeat. Navicomputers allow you to change direction in hyperspace without worrying about slipping up and hitting the nearest thing.

I always assumed that the trade spines existed because those were long-established paths that connected multiple worlds together in the fastest and safest routes to bring traffic to and from the core (or near other trade spines). I think its more comparable to ocean travel, where you can go almost everywhere, but there are certain areas where travel is most efficient, whether due to natural conditions or because it passes many ports along the way.

[Eleas]

I also pointed out that with a navigation computer, it isn't a very hard thing to reconstruct a lost or collapsed hyperlane (the only difference between a collapsed one and an unknown one is that you know the location of the planet you're looking for, but not the route.) And as I pointed out, reconstructing a lane doesn't take much longer than it would to travel it, even in the deep core regions.

That depends on how you would define a "lane". In the context of a galaxy-spanning civilization, the main difference between a series of hyperspace route and a trade spine is likely to be one of reliability of data and error frequency. In crass terms, traffic over hyperspace lanes would have a lower percentage of damaged or lost ships. Reconstructing a lane, then, would essentially mean not only rebuilding observational equipment and infrastructure, but recreating the computer models, algorithms and protocols that together allow for safe high-density travel along the route.

No matter the level of technology you possess, I honestly doubt this is a trivial undertaking. It could very well be a matter of observation and statistical modelling taking years or decades before the projected route qualifies. In any case, having the speed and reliability of (say) the Perlemian Trade Route is likely to be an ideal rather than reality for any invasion force. I doubt any generalized invasion doctrine would take that capability as a given; it's not as if the issue hasn't come up in SW before, particularly during the Rebellion era.

[fallendragon]

Eleas, what are you basing that theory on?

and have you concidered this http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Probe_dr ... note-GG3-0?

[Imperial528]

That depends on how you would define a "lane". In the context of a galaxy-spanning civilization, the main difference between a series of hyperspace route and a trade spine is likely to be one of reliability of data and error frequency. In crass terms, traffic over hyperspace lanes would have a lower percentage of damaged or lost ships. Reconstructing a lane, then, would essentially mean not only rebuilding observational equipment and infrastructure, but recreating the computer models, algorithms and protocols that together allow for safe high-density travel along the route.

From what I've read in the books, to me it seems that a lane is simply a pathway through space which is clear of objects such as black holes and large stars, which means that you can essentially "floor it" since there's no chance you'll hit something. Unlike normal jumps, which need to be calculated every time, and because there are more uncertainties, you need to move slower. As an example, it is possible to reach Alderaan from Coruscant directly, however it takes over sixteen hours because the direct route passes through the uncharted deep core. Travel from the much further away Tatooine to Alderaan is actually a shorter travel time because the route would go through charted space, and both planets are close to intersecting hyperlanes.

No matter the level of technology you possess, I honestly doubt this is a trivial undertaking. It could very well be a matter of observation and statistical modelling taking years or decades before the projected route qualifies. In any case, having the speed and reliability of (say) the Perlemian Trade Route is likely to be an ideal rather than reality for any invasion force. I doubt any generalized invasion doctrine would take that capability as a given; it's not as if the issue hasn't come up in SW before, particularly during the Rebellion era.

Granted, Bane had force powers which aided him in predicting what was ahead, but he did manage to find, in a period of at most two months, a clear, stable route through the deep core. I'm sure that any military organization could easily make up for the lack of force powers just by sheer number of probe droids. Of course, it's also unlikely that they'd have to chart a path through something as hazardous as the deep core.

[Thanas]

Actually, we know that unchartered space can be traversed at full hyperspace speed from the Courtship of Princess Leia, where Luke was able to guide the Hapan fleet through unchartered space at full speed. Slower speed seems to be a safety concern, not a necessity, especially not in the ST galaxy where routes that work are already used by ST ships.

Besides, there are always hyperspace scouts.

[Stark]

If it was as simple as flying from point A to point B and there was no significant problems in flying around in places you haven't "mapped out" for hyperspace travel, why would they need to create such trade lanes in the first place? That hyperspace "routes" even exist as opposed to just flying wherever you want implies that it must be either slower or more dangerous (or both) to not use them.

It can't be as simple as knowing where the stars and similar phenomena are going to be and when, because if that was the case then you would be able to work out the entire galaxy's hyperspace routes in a matter of months or (at most) a few years just by having some space telescopes, mapping out the nearbye stars then jumping into the next lot. You wouldn't even need a telescope that was all that powerful since you can hyperspace to the next lot of stars.

The same retarded EU authors that invented 'hyperlanes' also invented really stupid reasons why they exist, like ships not having navicomps and using pre-set courses and such. I believe that in the old Republic most traffic used preset lanes, for whatever reason, and most civilian ships didn't have the computers to calculate their own.

Hell, maybe this was due to trade tariffs.

[fallendragon]

I believe that in the old Republic most traffic used preset lanes, for whatever reason, and most civilian ships didn't have the computers to calculate their own.

What is this belief based on? As the article I posted above seems to disagree and that Old Republic was actually a time of great exploration due to the probe droids. Your thought seems to fit better with Imperial times as far as I can tell.

[Stark]

'The old Republic' was 25,000 years, buddy (or a thousand generations or whatever). Apparently the Imperial period was one where civilians moved more towards self-sufficient course plotting, probably due to regional chaos.

And don't blame me; I didn't write the EU.

[Vympel]

Palpatine effected the mapping of the Deep Core during the Clone Wars in a matter of a few years - an area far bigger than the Federation, and far worse for hyperspace travel. All the Empire needs to do is acquire maps of the area and spam the routes with probe droids to determine how hazardous hyperspace is in the area - whichever probe droid makes it first, *bam* there's your route to any given location.

And SW ships travel in the Unknown Regions just fine as well - you don't need comprehensive maps or established routes. They're just the easiest.

[Stark]

I think it was suggested that the 'lanes' are the most optimal routes for time or fuel or whatever, and if you'r Space Trucker Timbo you don't actually want to calculate your own potentially worse route - you're happy to use the established one. Of course, the ends of the route can't be pre-plotted (unless you enter and exit at exactly the same point) so in a vs sense its not an issue.

[Imperial528]

The only real danger in uncharted areas is that if you don't take the extra precautions of traveling slower than normal, longer calculations and/or shorter jumps, you could accidentally make a "blind jump", which is bad, especially in the uncharted regions since the navicomputer needs to confirm gravity wells from sensors, and by that time it may be too late.

[Vympel]

The only real danger in uncharted areas is that if you don't take the extra precautions of traveling slower than normal, longer calculations and/or shorter jumps, you could accidentally make a "blind jump", which is bad, especially in the uncharted regions since the navicomputer needs to confirm gravity wells from sensors, and by that time it may be too late.

Yeah, also because the well-established routes are well-travelled, the routes don't 'degrade' apparently (this is all from the Essential Atlas) because the sensor data from each ship travelling the route is uploaded by law at the next port. If a route isn't travelled for yonks, it might become dangerous because recent hyperspace hazards (i.e. not just real space 'mass shadows' or whatever) could not be accounted for. Obviously an irrelevant consideration in an invasion scenario, since all the routes will be well-travelled (since it'll be such a short time span).

[Collossus]

I know it was never determined to my knowledge but do we have the maximum impulse speed for a Star Destroyer or equivalent class? On Empire how far did they millennium falcon have to go strictly on impulse? I always assumed it was still in system but still……..not that the impulse matters anyhow, even if they had no way to get Star charts they could send out Probots and just tail them on a predetermined search pattern. When a probe gets destroyed they could simply send out another on a slightly different course. Of course didn’t they have to have a holonet up to receive real-time only? So they could still receive data albeit not in real-time.

[Batman]

I know it was never determined to my knowledge but do we have the maximum impulse speed for a Star Destroyer or equivalent class?

1. Wars sublight reaction drives are called ion engines, not impulse. And while I don't know any figures for capital ships, in the NJO fighters got up to the high fractional c range, and since they don't have massively larger accelerations than capships and fuel budgets tend to favour the bigger ship, I don't see why an ISD couldn't.

On Empire how far did they millennium falcon have to go strictly on impulse?

Again, ion engines, and we don't know for a fact they were reduced to STL speeds thanks to the EU introduced backup hyperdrive.
If anything them making the trip STL and taking several months would work better from Luke's PoV as it would give him ample time to get a good smacking of Jedi training while relativistic effects would still make the journey much shorter sd the feople on the MF experience it.