Galactic Collision Scenario

[Transbot9]

Yes, yes, I know this is silly, but that's part of the fun.

Scenario: The Trek version of the Milky Way collides with the Star Wars Galaxy, merging the two with a freak occurrence where most of the habitable planets actually survive (with the exception anything near the center of the galaxies, as the two super black holes would merge - essentially eliminating Byss). Trek time line is just post-Nemesis and the Empire is at it's height (5 to 0 BYY).

Traditional Hyperspace routes are out of whack due to the galactic merger. Civilian and Military transportation is disrupted on an interstellar scale. While the Empire is technologically superior, it is suddenly fighting multi-front conflicts Galaxy wide. The sudden disruption of the logistical supply train puts a greater strain on the Empire, while the Rebel Alliance is finding new support from the ST worlds (although all they can offer at first is extra manpower, as their infrastructure would need to be overhauled). Basically, it's all one big mess that one way or another will take years to sort out. At least the Empire still has the first Death Star

[open_sketchbook]

Star Wars wins, Star Trek loses, a single stormtrooper perishes in the conflict due to his own negligence more than to enemy action, yadda yadda yadda.

There isn't a debate. There are more spacecraft in the GFFA than there are sentient beings in Trek, so the Empire can literately just send them all in every direction and get a complete map in a few days at most. Then, they curbstomp every useless Trek empire into the ground without breaking a sweat. It'll be over in days or weeks, a few months at most, and then it'll just be clean-up/genocide.

[Captain Seafort]

It might be an interesting idea as a fanfic, exploring the effects of the two galaxies suddenly being overlapped on top of each other, although it would be better to depict it as Act of Q, rather than a genuine collision.

[Ghost Rider]

Jesus titty fucking christ.

Empire and the Alliance launch probe droids to determine where to go. The new people get curb stomped by smuggler and pirate bands. Life returns to normal soon enough. Seriously what the fuck.

[bz249]

There may be an economic downturn, after all ships exploring do not carry goods, maybe hyperspace travel would be a little bit faster also... maybe the effects would be quite serious. Oh BTW destroying some Trek planets for entrataining the suffering population would be a good idea.

[Batman]

What economic downturn? Probe droid spam/telescopic mapping FTW. The Empire doesn't NEED to sent freighters to find out how to best get from A to B. The AQ powers get curbstomped as per standard procedure. We're talking a 'maybe MT weapons on an AQ capship vs 200GT per battery guns on a Clone Wars era troop transport' power disparity here. At best the Empire no longer having reliable charts (which goes the other way too, by the way-the Trek side's chart are now just as useless, what with the intermingling of the two galaxies rather distinctly altering the astrographic makeup of what used to be the Milky Way galaxy.) means they'll need a few weeks to map the new combined galaxy.
Since AQ capital ships can't catch leave alone hurt Imperial corvettes, so what?
This might make for an interesting fanfic as mentioned before but with regards to the vs debate it doesn't change a thing.

[Transbot9]

Sheesh, I know SW wins - just check my sig for the only two scenarios where the Federation stands a sliver of a chance. The galactic collision does explore option #2, though - with the potential for interesting results. SW tech now falls into the hands of ST races - Feddies & Romulans on the face of things bow to the Empire, but join the Rebellion (although, they're useless until they get their tech up to speed - which will probably take a few years). Klingons are probably just laughed at. All it would take is a few SW civvie ships and the Borg become an additional annoyance. The destabilized economy (even with probe droid spamming, the galaxy is a big place and the new hyperspace routes would shift the flow of trade) puts financial pressure on the Empire, which leads to additional bully-boy tactics in order to get the resources the Empire needs to put itself back together. Despite the bully tactics, a PR move by Palpatine could actually encourage popular support as he brings "security and safety" back to the galaxy (fear is useful to a Sith).

[The Romulan Republic]

Jesus titty fucking christ.

Empire and the Alliance launch probe droids to determine where to go. The new people get curb stomped by smuggler and pirate bands. Life returns to normal soon enough. Seriously what the fuck.

While it is absolutely correct that the Empire still retains a lot of its tech and numbers advantages, I'm not sure the solution to this situation is as simple as you claim. If I understand the OP's scenario, we are talking about a potentially Galaxy-wide disruption of hyperspace travel. Now, the current civilization has had tens of thousands of years to chart out those hyperspace routes. It does not follow that they will be able to re-chart the entire galaxy in a week or a year. So please, explain how its going to be as simple as launching probe droids and everything goes back to normal. Do you have hard numbers to demonstrate that they can re-chart everything in a short amount of time?

No doubt they'll chart it out again eventually, but in the meantime we are indeed talking about a Galaxy-wide disruption of trade and military movements. Of course, that's no credit to the Trek factions-the same would be true if it was any other galaxy. But you can't just hand-wave away the magnitude of the problem here.

[The Romulan Republic]

Sheesh, I know SW wins - just check my sig for the only two scenarios where the Federation stands a sliver of a chance. The galactic collision does explore option #2, though - with the potential for interesting results. SW tech now falls into the hands of ST races - Feddies & Romulans on the face of things bow to the Empire, but join the Rebellion (although, they're useless until they get their tech up to speed - which will probably take a few years).

Probably more than a few years. Its a big gap in a lot of respects.

In the short-term, the only things they can offer are raw resources and man-power, plus maybe a few marginally useful tech gimmicks. I'm not sure the Romulans would join the Rebellion though. They seem too cautious and isolationist for it to be in character.

Klingons are probably just laughed at. All it would take is a few SW civvie ships and the Borg become an additional annoyance.

Pretty sure this has been argued a lot of times before. What proof do you have that the Borg can assimilate Star Wars ships?

The destabilized economy (even with probe droid spamming, the galaxy is a big place and the new hyperspace routes would shift the flow of trade) puts financial pressure on the Empire, which leads to additional bully-boy tactics in order to get the resources the Empire needs to put itself back together. Despite the bully tactics, a PR move by Palpatine could actually encourage popular support as he brings "security and safety" back to the galaxy (fear is useful to a Sith).

I can't say I disagree with any of the above.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

This rang a bell, so I looked up the galactic collision we're expecting to have in three billion years with Andromeda; and it may be wiki, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda- ... _collision but I don't think they can be inaccurate enough to invalidate the point- closing speed is a hundred and twenty kilometres per second, .0004% of lightspeed.

Civilisations could evolve out of the primordial ooze in the time it's going to take the two galaxies to fully merge; rise, flourish, die and their microbial descendants could be well on their way to doing it all again. (Strictly speaking this may be out by about a factor of thirty, but in Trek?) Also, we are aware of the possibility of it's occurring three billion years in advance. I don't think the event is going to qualify in any way as a sudden shock.

A rather more interesting question, how (assuming obedience to the laws of physics) would you go about launching one galaxy at another fast enough for it to actually be a surprise to the inhabitants? Slingshot round the Great Attractor?

Then again, and this is extremely wild and ridiculous speculation, I've always wondered what the galactic energy barrier was supposed to be for- could it actually be a strange variation of warp bubble, one of the elder races' attempt to submerge the entire galaxy in and move it through subspace?

[Batman]

Jesus titty fucking christ.
Empire and the Alliance launch probe droids to determine where to go. The new people get curb stomped by smuggler and pirate bands. Life returns to normal soon enough. Seriously what the fuck.

While it is absolutely correct that the Empire still retains a lot of its tech and numbers advantages, I'm not sure the solution to this situation is as simple as you claim. If I understand the OP's scenario, we are talking about a potentially Galaxy-wide disruption of hyperspace travel.

Um no we're not. We're talking about a disruption of established hyperspace lanes, nothing more. Which is sort of a given as the Wars side is no longer in its home galaxy.

Now, the current civilization has had tens of thousands of years to chart out those hyperspace routes. It does not follow that they will be able to re-chart the entire galaxy in a week or a year. So please, explain how its going to be as simple as launching probe droids and everything goes back to normal. Do you have hard numbers to demonstrate that they can re-chart everything in a short amount of time?

Yes? Especially as the vast majority of that can be done with MODERN WORLD TECHNOLOGY?

No doubt they'll chart it out again eventually, but in the meantime we are indeed talking about a Galaxy-wide disruption of trade and military movements. Of course, that's no credit to the Trek factions-the same would be true if it was any other galaxy. But you can't just hand-wave away the magnitude of the problem here.

No we aren't, given that the Empire CAN reorient in a matter of days.

[The Romulan Republic]

Um no we're not. We're talking about a disruption of established hyperspace lanes, nothing more. Which is sort of a given as the Wars side is no longer in its home galaxy.

That's what I meant. I may have phrased it poorly, but it comes to the same thing, more or less. Yes, ships can still enter hyperspace, but all the established routes will be fucked up, galaxy-wide. As far as I can see you're just arguing semantics here.

Yes? Especially as the vast majority of that can be done with MODERN WORLD TECHNOLOGY?

A source or more detailed explanation than "yes they can" would be appreciated. Think of all the things that can impede hyperspace travel: stars, planets, moons, black holes, etc. Basically anything with a lot of gravity, right? Now, some of those will be easily detectable using modern telescopes. But locating everything that might pull a ship out of hyperspace, galaxy-wide, with modern technology?

Of course, the Empire can use probe droids, but they'll need to use a lot of them, and I suspect their will be a certain amount of trial and error involved as some of the probes end up being destroyed by various phenomena.

If you can prove your case, I'll gladly concede the point. I don't really care weather the Empire could do it quickly or not. It just didn't seem wise to assume they could without any evidence to that effect.

No we aren't, given that the Empire CAN reorient in a matter of days.

Again, prove it. Right now you're just tossing out unsupported claims as far as I'm concerned.

[Transbot9]

Don't forget Dark Matter - although we can see the effect of it, nobody knows what it is 'cause we can't see it (most probably because it isn't glowing).

Borg: They've been shown to assimilate almost anything once they get their hands on it. All they would need to do is find a public access R-terminal and shove their robo-vampiric knuckles into it.

Upgrading infrastructure: I don't see the Federation not being able to turn out cruiser sized vessels in under 5 years from when they get the data on SW tech. Droids are simple enough that the Feds could probably replicate them en mass and put 'em to work pretty quick. Sure, it would take them longer to make something comparable to Imperial military standard, but civvie grade ships they'd be able to make. Ooo...and fighters. Fighters are a lot simpler. Mars would make a decent X-wing plant.

Romulans: Good point - I can see them huddling in their little empire for decades while they rebuild.

[Ryan Thunder]

Borg: They've been shown to assimilate almost anything once they get their hands on it. All they would need to do is find a public access R-terminal and shove their robo-vampiric knuckles into it.

Oh, its those hatfuckers again.

Giving the Borg a terminal is like giving a caveman access to wikipedia.

[Transbot9]

Well, having the Borg does require ignoring a lot of Voyager - which I'm willing to do

[Batman]

Um no we're not. We're talking about a disruption of established hyperspace lanes, nothing more. Which is sort of a given as the Wars side is no longer in its home galaxy.

That's what I meant. I may have phrased it poorly, but it comes to the same thing, more or less. Yes, ships can still enter hyperspace, but all the established routes will be fucked up, galaxy-wide. As far as I can see you're just arguing semantics here.

No I'm not. You don't NEED preestablished hyperspace lanes for safe hyperspace travel, as evidenced by every single time a ship in Star Wars simply picking where it wants to go and going stardrive. Which is most of the time.

Yes? Especially as the vast majority of that can be done with MODERN WORLD TECHNOLOGY?

A source or more detailed explanation than "yes they can" would be appreciated. Think of all the things that can impede hyperspace travel: stars, planets, moons, black holes, etc.

ALL of which are far and few between, and the most numerous AND important ones-i.e., stars, ARE easily detectable with modern technology.

Basically anything with a lot of gravity, right? Now, some of those will be easily detectable using modern telescopes. But locating everything that might pull a ship out of hyperspace, galaxy-wide, with modern technology?

I never said 'everything'. I said 'most'. And the ones we can't-planets, moons and the like-tend to hang around STARS. AND tend to have a gravitational pull that's DROWNED OUT by the one from the star so as long as you stay clear of the star you stay clear of them by default.

Of course, the Empire can use probe droids, but they'll need to use a lot of them, and I suspect their will be a certain amount of trial and error involved as some of the probes end up being destroyed by various phenomena.

Hogwash. As I said a lot of the mapping can be done with modern day technology ALREADY and what phenomena would those be?

If you can prove your case, I'll gladly concede the point. I don't really care weather the Empire could do it quickly or not. It just didn't seem wise to assume they could without any evidence to that effect.

That'd be the part where simple telescopic mapping can do a huge chunk of it and comets and moons don't figure into it to begin with as long as you know where the STARS are.

No we aren't, given that the Empire CAN reorient in a matter of days.

Again, prove it. Right now you're just tossing out unsupported claims as far as I'm concerned.

Industrial capacity AND hyperdrive speed to flood the galaxy with Probe Droids in a matter of days. Lack of immediate need to do so as a lot of the mapping can be done with optical telescopes as available today.

[bilateralrope]

If the two galaxies suddenly overlap, telescopes won't be able to map the location of the stars from the trek galaxy until the light from those stars reaches somewhere with telescopes. So our modern methods for locating those stars will be useless for a few years.

[Batman]

Don't forget Dark Matter - although we can see the effect of it, nobody knows what it is 'cause we can't see it (most probably because it isn't glowing).

Um-it doesn't glow and we thus can't see it. That's it. It doesn't NEED any special attributes beyond that to do what it apparently does.

Borg: They've been shown to assimilate almost anything once they get their hands on it. All they would need to do is find a public access R-terminal and shove their robo-vampiric knuckles into it.

Bzzt. Wrong. They have NEVER been shown to assimilate anything even REMOTELY approaching Star Wars level and have to this day failed to adapt to primitive KE/momentum attacks despite this being the most basic weapon any civilisation develops when the comparably low tech AQ races DID.
Show me the Borg assimilating the Q or the Dowd and we can talk about 'almost anything'.

Upgrading infrastructure: I don't see the Federation not being able to turn out cruiser sized vessels in under 5 years from when they get the data on SW tech.

Try 5,000, WITH a complete manual. You obviously don't understand the tech gap between the Feds and Star Wars.

Droids are simple enough that the Feds could probably replicate them en mass and put 'em to work pretty quick.

Yeah. Because Data is totally not special and AI is all over the place in TNG. Oh wait. NOT. Sentient androids are HOUSEHOLD ITEMS in Wars while Data is extra particularly special in Trek. To the point where they raised a not inconsiderable fuss so they could take him part to see how he works.

Sure, it would take them longer to make something comparable to Imperial military standard, but civvie grade ships they'd be able to make.

Inside a couple thousand years, sure.

Ooo...and fighters. Fighters are a lot simpler.

As evidenced by-you saying so.

Mars would make a decent X-wing plant.

Because...?

[bz249]

No I'm not. You don't NEED preestablished hyperspace lanes for safe hyperspace travel, as evidenced by every single time a ship in Star Wars simply picking where it wants to go and going stardrive. Which is most of the time.

To cause a significant turmoil you don´t have to make hyperspace travel impossible or unsafe. All you need to do is to make it slower. Because slower hyperspace travel means less goods arriving to the target (unless you can put more ships in service, which is highly unlikely because what the hell could have those spare ships doing before).

That´s why forcing the enemy to use convoys to protect their shipping is a half victory in naval war, since convoys are slower and they spend more time in port to wait.

[Crazedwraith]

No I'm not. You don't NEED preestablished hyperspace lanes for safe hyperspace travel, as evidenced by every single time a ship in Star Wars simply picking where it wants to go and going stardrive. Which is most of the time.

Which they do because their navcomputers have starcharts indicating where everything is so they can plot a curse. If a bunch of new stars appear that they don't know about; the navicomp's course is going to fly you slap bang into hazards it doesn't know about. Hence disruption.

[Vehrec]

No I'm not. You don't NEED preestablished hyperspace lanes for safe hyperspace travel, as evidenced by every single time a ship in Star Wars simply picking where it wants to go and going stardrive. Which is most of the time.

Which they do because their navcomputers have starcharts indicating where everything is so they can plot a curse. If a bunch of new stars appear that they don't know about; the navicomp's course is going to fly you slap bang into hazards it doesn't know about. Hence disruption.

I think you guys are forgetting something here. Stars move, even in a normal galaxy. Ergo, hyperspace routes constantly are in a state of flux, and selling new maps is very profitable in Star Wars. It was a major source of income for the Trade Federation. But to sell new maps you need to be able to survey new maps, because as far as I know Star Wars still hasn't solved the N body problem for values of N as large as the number of stars in a galaxy. Ergo, the ability to survey large areas of space for hyperdrive routes already exists.

[bz249]

I think you guys are forgetting something here. Stars move, even in a normal galaxy. Ergo, hyperspace routes constantly are in a state of flux, and selling new maps is very profitable in Star Wars. It was a major source of income for the Trade Federation. But to sell new maps you need to be able to survey new maps, because as far as I know Star Wars still hasn't solved the N body problem for values of N as large as the number of stars in a galaxy. Ergo, the ability to survey large areas of space for hyperdrive routes already exists.

Since the 3-body problem is unsolvable we can assume they can not solve it

So of course they have survey capacity... probably way below the requirement to charter a completely new Galaxy within hours (again the question what are those survey units doing in a normal workday, who is paying their amortization) so we can assume that galactic trade level would still fall significantly for a prolonged period.

[Crazedwraith]

Making minor adjustments to existing star maps is not the same as their suddenly being twice as many stars in the galaxy, not by a long shot.

Can you provide any evidence for this supposition that starcharts need to be constantly re-mapped?

[Vehrec]

Making minor adjustments to existing star maps is not the same as their suddenly being twice as many stars in the galaxy, not by a long shot.

Can you provide any evidence for this supposition that starcharts need to be constantly re-mapped?

Is the great profit made by the Trade Federation by having and selling very accurate maps not enough for you? Shall I note that one of the reasons that Kashyyyk was a strategic target during the clone wars was it's top notch Hyperspatial cartography industry? Capturing that facility intact would have granted the Separatists multiple new fronts along which to strike against the Republic. Apparently after just three years at war, there were routes that their ships could no longer navigate due to outdated information.

[Batman]

No I'm not. You don't NEED preestablished hyperspace lanes for safe hyperspace travel, as evidenced by every single time a ship in Star Wars simply picking where it wants to go and going stardrive. Which is most of the time.

Which they do because their navcomputers have starcharts indicating where everything is so they can plot a curse. If a bunch of new stars appear that they don't know about; the navicomp's course is going to fly you slap bang into hazards it doesn't know about. Hence disruption.

Oh I absolutely agree they'll need to update their maps. I just doubt that'll take long enough to cause any long-time disruption, though on hindsight a couple of days might have been a bit on the optimistic side.
On the other hand, under ordinary circumstances they'd have a couple billion years to prepare for the event

Making minor adjustments to existing star maps is not the same as their suddenly being twice as many stars in the galaxy, not by a long shot.
Can you provide any evidence for this supposition that starcharts need to be constantly re-mapped?

Is the great profit made by the Trade Federation by having and selling very accurate maps not enough for you? Shall I note that one of the reasons that Kashyyyk was a strategic target during the clone wars was it's top notch Hyperspatial cartography industry? Capturing that facility intact would have granted the Separatists multiple new fronts along which to strike against the Republic. Apparently after just three years at war, there were routes that their ships could no longer navigate due to outdated information.

Which makes no sense in face of the fact that 1) celestial bodies move not only pretty slowly on a galactic scale but in incredibly predictable paths too, and 2) starships habitually come out of hyperdrive insystem and pretty close to planetary bodies so other than the one in a gazillion chance of the star/planet actually physically being in the path of the ship (which is something WE would be able to predict and compensate for today) the practically inexistant changes in stellar body positions over a period of a few years should pose no problem whatsoever in hyperdrive course calculations.