Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

[Aaron]

The defenses of Earth have a frequency

Please tell me that was sarcasm- reality does not work that way. At the very least, even if it DID, they wouldn't leave one open so you could magically fly in an see everything- unless you can activate God-Mode in the Trek universe that way (thus explaining Kirk's rationale for his cheating )

He likely means the radio (subspace/magic/whatever) frequencies that the defences use, which if you know, you could jam. Of course this gets back to what Mike mentioned; that the CO likely wouldn't know the freqs used by the system defences.

[Patrick Degan]

Um, a point with the capture of Captain Pike.


Nero wanted the frequency for Earth's defenses.

Could that mean he wanted to be able to scan fo them, so he'd know the best path to take to avoid them?

That actually makes Nero look a little smarter, and doesn't make Starfleet/UFP look stupid. It leaves their defense capabilities ambigious.

No, it does make them look quite stupid. Consider: no orbital phaser or missile platforms, no defence ships, no planetary shields or even city shields. No ground batteries of any sort. No planetary defences other than whatever could be disabled by Nero knowing the right codes. What sort of way is that to protect a planet, much less the homeworld of the UFP?

We don't even get the vaunted 3-ship Mars Perimetre Defence Force in this movie.

[Peptuck]

Could that mean he wanted to be able to scan fo them, so he'd know the best path to take to avoid them?

That would still mean that the Federation had no defenses that could be summoned to intercept the giant death ship firing the giant energy beam straight into the core of Earth within line of sight of the Federation's capital.

Whether or not you have the "frequency" for the Earth defense network, Nero's ship is not what one would consider "subtle." Even if they bypassed some of Earth's defenses, you'd think they'd have some ships or defense emplacements that they could override to target the ship.

But nope. All you have to do to render Earth defenseless is corner a Federation ship, capture its captain (easy as pie, considering how happily they'll skip on over to the enemy ship to "negotiate") and interrogate him.

[bz249]

Well we can conclude that the frequency of any warship appear near Earth is less then 1/month. I think thats an important information before attacking the Fedaration capitol. Why a captain is required for that is still a mistery to me.

[Samuel]

The defenses of Earth have a frequency

Please tell me that was sarcasm- reality does not work that way. At the very least, even if it DID, they wouldn't leave one open so you could magically fly in an see everything- unless you can activate God-Mode in the Trek universe that way (thus explaining Kirk's rationale for his cheating )

He likely means the radio (subspace/magic/whatever) frequencies that the defences use, which if you know, you could jam. Of course this gets back to what Mike mentioned; that the CO likely wouldn't know the freqs used by the system defences.

So... they all use the same frequency? And don't have a back up frequency? Or notice when defenses stop responding? I know this isn't 40K (although having a defense network like that for Terra in almost any sci-fi universe makes alot of sense), but jamming military communications tends to raise red flags and activate said defenses.

[Aaron]

So... they all use the same frequency? And don't have a back up frequency? Or notice when defenses stop responding? I know this isn't 40K (although having a defense network like that for Terra in almost any sci-fi universe makes alot of sense), but jamming military communications tends to raise red flags and activate said defenses.

In RL those freqs would be changed on a daily basis (at minimum), though you can jam things and not have the entire solar system know, depending on the power used. I'm going on the assumption that Nero just needed to get past a warning network or the entire scene makes absolutely no sense, especially as earlier he took out an entire fleet on his own.

[Peptuck]

Well we can conclude that the frequency of any warship appear near Earth is less then 1/month. I think thats an important information before attacking the Fedaration capitol. Why a captain is required for that is still a mistery to me.

They leave the capital completely unguarded?

Are these guys complete retards? Its like they're begging to be conquered by someone with a smidge of competence.

[The Romulan Republic]

Normally I would say that if their capital is in the middle of their territory, its not likely to be attacked without warning. But given the widespread use of cloaks, that doesn't hold up.

[Samuel]

Normally I would say that if their capital is in the middle of their territory, its not likely to be attacked without warning. But given the widespread use of cloaks, that doesn't hold up.

Not to mention that the galaxy is a plain so you can just fly over the defenses.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh come one. The galaxy's a disk, but its not paper thin. I'm not sure exactly how thick the disk is at Earth's distance from the core, but given Federation warp speeds, I doubt their territory is any kind of a flat disk.

I fully acknowledged that simply being at the center of Federation space is no safeguard against surprise attack, but surely not for the reason you gave.

[Junghalli]

I'm not sure exactly how thick the disk is at Earth's distance from the core

It's around 1000 light years as I remember.

[The Romulan Republic]

Actually, in retrospect Samuel might have a valid point about bypassing defenses by attacking from above the galactic disk. It depends on how much faster warp drive is in the new timeline (I keep hearing its faster but no one seems to be completely sure by how much). I just thought I should make that slight correction.

[Samuel]

Actually, in retrospect Samuel might have a valid point about bypassing defenses by attacking from above the galactic disk. It depends on how much faster warp drive is in the new timeline (I keep hearing its faster but no one seems to be completely sure by how much). I just thought I should make that slight correction.

It doesn't matter how fast it is, but how good the sensors are. If you can slip a fleet behind your enemies and reach their primary worlds before their fleet can, you have them in your hands.

[Serafina]

By the way, why has Vulcan no "defense grid"?
Sure, it's not the capital of the Federation , but it's a primary founding member and major planet - so why are there no defenses?

And if there are defenses, Nero was able to overcome them easily - why bother with the defense grind of Earth, then?

[Simon_Jester]

By the way, why has Vulcan no "defense grid"?
Sure, it's not the capital of the Federation , but it's a primary founding member and major planet - so why are there no defenses?

And if there are defenses, Nero was able to overcome them easily - why bother with the defense grind of Earth, then?

My guess is that he wanted to make a clean sweep of the defenders as quickly as possible. His ship has overwhelming firepower, and is presumably very well shielded, but it doesn't seem to be all that much faster than Federation ships of this timeline. Without the speed advantage, Nero needs to be able to punch out any local defense forces quickly, or they might jump into warp and then slip a few inconvenient torpedoes up his tailpipe while he's busy destroying the planet.

Having access to communication frequencies (and possibly things like IFF transponder codes) would make it easier to do that, I'd think.

[Darth Wong]

Frankly, given the fact that he appears to have no weapons other than those slow-moving torpedoes (or we would have seen them when he ordered "fire everything"), it's a pretty safe bet that any reasonably placed network of defense installations and vessels could not possibly have been destroyed by him in any reasonable period of time. There's just no way to get around the fact that Earth seemed to have almost no defenses (unless they had defenses which were irrevocably shut down by his use of the correct "frequencies", which is even dumber).

[Simon_Jester]

Would he not be able to destroy widely separated installations by making small jumps in warp drive?

[Please note the phrasing: this is a seriously intended question. I don't see the reason why he couldn't, since warp microjumps are a fairly well established Star Trek trick; that doesn't mean there isn't one]

Widely separated ships or other mobile platforms would obviously be more of a problem. So if Earth did have any mobile defense forces, they almost have to have been concentrated in one place where Nero could cripple them all before they escaped into warp (like the Kelvin). Or any isolated ships must have been dumb enough to charge straight into battle with the Narada and get crippled before being able to escape. Or, failing that, any isolated ships must have already fled the scene before the USS Enterprise arrives.

Or, yes, there could not be any defensive ships. But I'm not sure there has to be no defensive fleet for what we see to happen.

[Darth Wong]

Would he not be able to destroy widely separated installations by making small jumps in warp drive?

Sure, if there are, like five. But really, we're talking about the home planet of an interstellar federation, and this planet alone has something like 9 billion people living on it. There should be hundreds or thousands of targets to hit. Missile spam from a network of defense installations, drones, small ships, large ships, weapon platforms, ground-based defense stations, etc. Even if it only takes 30 seconds to take each one out, it's just not reasonable for Narada to be sitting above Earth completely unbothered, drilling happily away.

[Havok]

Would he not be able to destroy widely separated installations by making small jumps in warp drive?

Sure, if there are, like five. But really, we're talking about the home planet of an interstellar federation, and this planet alone has something like 9 billion people living on it. There should be hundreds or thousands of targets to hit. Missile spam from a network of defense installations, drones, small ships, large ships, weapon platforms, ground-based defense stations, etc. Even if it only takes 30 seconds to take each one out, it's just not reasonable for Narada to be sitting above Earth completely unbothered, drilling happily away.

Hmmm... Side thought on this point. Common sense wise, this pretty much kills any thought of the Xindi BS from Enterprise being the point of origin for a shift in the timeline as I've seen a few people speculate to try to tie the new movie with old continuity. If it was, Earth would be far more prepared for an orbital beam drilling attack that just sits there. Yeah, it's just more bullshit that doesn't add up.

[Simon_Jester]

Would he not be able to destroy widely separated installations by making small jumps in warp drive?

Sure, if there are, like five. But really, we're talking about the home planet of an interstellar federation, and this planet alone has something like 9 billion people living on it. There should be hundreds or thousands of targets to hit. Missile spam from a network of defense installations, drones, small ships, large ships, weapon platforms, ground-based defense stations, etc. Even if it only takes 30 seconds to take each one out, it's just not reasonable for Narada to be sitting above Earth completely unbothered, drilling happily away.

Not that it would be all that surprising for the Federation to screw up and overcentralize its combat power.

I'm not saying that's smart; I'm just saying it's a characteristic mistake for the Federation military. Some admiral asks "Why have sixty widely distributed torpedo launchers when you can stick them all on one big starbase?" Then Nero comes along and answers the question for them.

[Patrick Degan]

Would he not be able to destroy widely separated installations by making small jumps in warp drive?

Sure, if there are, like five. But really, we're talking about the home planet of an interstellar federation, and this planet alone has something like 9 billion people living on it. There should be hundreds or thousands of targets to hit. Missile spam from a network of defense installations, drones, small ships, large ships, weapon platforms, ground-based defense stations, etc. Even if it only takes 30 seconds to take each one out, it's just not reasonable for Narada to be sitting above Earth completely unbothered, drilling happily away.

Or even over Vulcan, for that matter. I know the Vulcans are supposed to be pacifists, but so are the Swiss. And they don't simply rely on logic and everybody else's good intentions to protect them from attack. Indeed, to leave your world completely vulnerable is fundamentally illogical.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Would he not be able to destroy widely separated installations by making small jumps in warp drive?

Sure, if there are, like five. But really, we're talking about the home planet of an interstellar federation, and this planet alone has something like 9 billion people living on it. There should be hundreds or thousands of targets to hit. Missile spam from a network of defense installations, drones, small ships, large ships, weapon platforms, ground-based defense stations, etc. Even if it only takes 30 seconds to take each one out, it's just not reasonable for Narada to be sitting above Earth completely unbothered, drilling happily away.

Not that it would be all that surprising for the Federation to screw up and overcentralize its combat power.

I'm not saying that's smart; I'm just saying it's a characteristic mistake for the Federation military. Some admiral asks "Why have sixty widely distributed torpedo launchers when you can stick them all on one big starbase?" Then Nero comes along and answers the question for them.

Or stick the Starbase on the exact opposite side of the planet to where the Narada starts drilling

[Samuel]

You need 6 bases at least to cover a world- you would never use one.

[Batman]

Somebody actually knowing what they are doing wouldn't. Trek hasn't been since Picard came about at the latest.

[Simon_Jester]

Or even over Vulcan, for that matter. I know the Vulcans are supposed to be pacifists, but so are the Swiss. And they don't simply rely on logic and everybody else's good intentions to protect them from attack. Indeed, to leave your world completely vulnerable is fundamentally illogical.

Very true.

If this is not simply a plot hole (and it might be), then the only sane explanation I can see is that Nero blew apart Vulcan's orbital defenses with his powerful ship before lowering the drill...

No, that's no good. Vulcan's distress call did not make it clear they were under overwhelming naval attack, and if they'd been losing orbital defenses to Nero they would surely have said so. OK, just a plot hole then.

You need 6 bases at least to cover a world- you would never use one.

Nitpick: couldn't you do it with four, at the vertices of a tetrahedron? I'm not sure that's consistent with stable orbits, but we know Starfleet has drive technology capable of sneering at orbital mechanics.

More seriously, you're right in that there should at least be "more than one" defense base covering Earth. Not only do you need multiple fortifications, but Darth Wong is right that it's desirable to have enormous numbers of them, so that no single attack can destroy them all.

If Starfleet concentrated its defenses into a relatively small number (say, less than a dozen) of localized, relatively immobile platforms or clusters of platforms, then I think Nero could take them on. Against a truly well designed defense in depth, with defenses both in space and on the ground, and at more locations than any one person* could keep track of? He'd be losing every drill he let down.

*even a Starfleet captain