Which world has the best medicine and life expectancy

[need4spd]

Which world has the best medicine for injuries and common health problems?
Am I missing something or does both universes not have a cure for old aging? I'd think both worlds should and do have a solution for never aging.

[Bounty]

"Never ageing"? I'm not sure how that's supposed to work.

I'm sure there are dozens of threads comparing medical technology in both universes, most of them focusing on the medically impressive hackjob needed to keep Vader walking and wheezing. Someone more familiar with SW can probably help with life expectancy figures, but with Bacta tanks and the combined medical knowledge of thousands of years of medical practice I think it's safe to assume this life expectancy will be far from embarrassing. Aren't Luke and company still kicking around in the books decades after ANH?

As for Trek, we have a few cases of individuals with a known lifespans; McCoy was frail but active and in seemingly good health at age 137, and Picard was still serving and in what seems to be excellent physical shape well into his seventies - he was 74 when he Rambo'ed his way onto the Scimitar.

Trek medicine seems capable of coping with virtually every non-complex injury, from broken bones to common diseases, sometimes in a matter of minutes. It gets trickier as diseases and injuries become more complex; Picard himself survived losing his heart, but the replacement requires maintenance every few years and there was no talk of simply growing a new one. Likewise, various alien illnesses have stumped Federation doctors over the years.

On its own Trek medicine has come a long way but falls short of being a magical cure-all. Unless you are on the brink of death or have a previously unencountered alien disease Trek medicine can probably pull you through up until an age about twice that of modern life expectancy, but they hardly have the serum for immortality.

[Darth Wong]

need4spd, you need to start creating threads where you show that you have put some thought into it, rather than lazily throwing up "hey, which one's better on <insert subject here>" threads.

[Junghalli]

Also, Trek has trouble with smashed spines. When Worf got his back broken they were expecting to not be able to fully restore his mobility ever, and only managed to do so using an untried and radical new treatment that almost killed him.

On the other hand, in ST: IV McCoy was able to cure kidney failure in a matter of minutes with a simple pill.

I remember in another thread somebody mentioned a quote that suggested an SW human could expect to live something like 115, maybe 125 if he took care of himself.

Neither universe seems to possess bio-immortality, oddly enough considering their technology level (or out-universe perhaps not, as the creators simply didn't want to deal with the implications of it).

[Aratech]

Also, Trek has trouble with smashed spines. When Worf got his back broken they were expecting to not be able to fully restore his mobility ever, and only managed to do so using an untried and radical new treatment that almost killed him.

On the other hand, in ST: IV McCoy was able to cure kidney failure in a matter of minutes with a simple pill.

I remember in another thread somebody mentioned a quote that suggested an SW human could expect to live something like 115, maybe 125 if he took care of himself.

Neither universe seems to possess bio-immortality, oddly enough considering their technology level (or out-universe perhaps not, as the creators simply didn't want to deal with the implications of it).

For what it's worth, if my memory is working correctly, in Triple Zero, the (IIRC) ~80 year old Kal Skirata is described as being 'middle aged.'

[Lord Revan]

well there's some counts about how long people (humans with access to decent healthcare) can live even without special treatments, but even those treatments have limits.

[need4spd]

Also, Trek has trouble with smashed spines. When Worf got his back broken they were expecting to not be able to fully restore his mobility ever, and only managed to do so using an untried and radical new treatment that almost killed him.

Yeah i noticed in sci-fi movies they seem to never have a cure for paralysis. Silly in my mind. They can use a little laser hand held tool in star trek to seal up a cut on the skin but not fix a spinal cord the width of a finger.

[The Spartan]

Also, Trek has trouble with smashed spines. When Worf got his back broken they were expecting to not be able to fully restore his mobility ever, and only managed to do so using an untried and radical new treatment that almost killed him.

Yeah i noticed in sci-fi movies they seem to never have a cure for paralysis. Silly in my mind. They can use a little laser hand held tool in star trek to seal up a cut on the skin but not fix a spinal cord the width of a finger.

Nerve cells are hardly the same as skin cells. Closing up a wound is trivial compared to repairing nerves.

[Serafina]

I think both Star Trek and Star Wars have pretty underdeveloped medical technology - at least compared to their other stuff.

Star Wars has to resort to artificial limbs. Star Trek can not replace a simple LUNG (we can do that today, or at least something similar).

On the other hand, both have pretty advanced technology: Bacta can easily most non-decapitating injuries, and Trek can heal "non-complex" injuries and diseases within secounds.

But compared to other sci-fi, they neither have notable life-prolonging technology, bio-enhancement, genetic treatment and other stuff.

Star Wars has the better technology: Bacta is close to "cure-all", and they have very advanced lifesupport and cloning technology. Trek is able to cure a lot of non-fancy stuff, but reviving a completly burnt and decapitated individual after hours or keeping someone alive without most of his body (Grievous) is not within their possibiltys.

[Bounty]

But compared to other sci-fi, they neither have notable life-prolonging technology, bio-enhancement, genetic treatment and other stuff.

For the federation, that can in part be attributed to their social taboo on (and legal prohibition of) eugenics engineering. Screening of foetuses for congenital defects and in-utero repairs appear to be the norm if even the sickbay of a small starship is capable of handling them - Torres' baby springs to mind - but genetic tampering with the specific goal of artificially lengthening lifespans would be a big no-no after Khan and Darwin Station.

Star Trek can not replace a simple LUNG (we can do that today, or at least something similar).

We can?

In fact, Trek doctors are explicitly stated to in fact be capable of installing artificial lungs; the Doctor explicitly dismisses it as an option due to Neelix' particular respirator system being too complex to make the procedure work, especially since he had less than an hour to live on life support.

[Kuja]

I think both Star Trek and Star Wars have pretty underdeveloped medical technology - at least compared to their other stuff.

Star Wars has to resort to artificial limbs.

Not quite. It's stated repeatedly in Star Wars literature (most notably Tales of the Bounty Hunters) that organs and limbs can be cloned and reattatched; the problem with it, however, is twofold. First, it's constantly referred to as being expensive as hell. Second, in the time of the Empire it has actually become illegal, probably as a result of backlash or political fallout from the Clone Wars. Note that the first problem may actually be a carollary to the second; the black market would naturally drive prices for the cloned-parts business through the roof.

And even without cloning, in Tales of the Bounty Hunters the Rebel docs were able to trigger the regrowth of a main characters lungs years after his exposure to toxic gases. As the man himself put it, "Zuckess will have new lungs in a few days."

[Aratech]

Also, might the argument be made that the cyber limbs are actually better than an organic replacement? I would think if nothing else, that, given SW level metalurgy, the limb would be more robust than an organic replacement.

[Darth Wong]

Part of the difficulty with answering this question lies with the need to define the terms for longevity. The Feds seem to be very good at keeping people healthy despite age and harsh treatment. On the other hand, the SW medics can pretty much turn you into a completely cybernetic creature except for your brain if they want to, which could extend your life to an absurd degree (not to mention making you a nigh-unstoppable killing machine if that's what you want).

[Bounty]

Also, might the argument be made that the cyber limbs are actually better than an organic replacement? I would think if nothing else, that, given SW level metalurgy, the limb would be more robust than an organic replacement.

It's still attached to a bog-standard organic joint with all the stress limitations that entails. The limb itself will be more robust, and if the weight is kept down that'll definitely be an advantage in terms of durability, but it won't offer a significant advantage when in use; I don't think there'll be a great deal of different between a virtually indestructible metal leg and a squishier organic one in terms of what the patient will actually use it for. Excluding the oddball situation where you need a club fast.

Organic limbs, on the other hand, have the advantage of looking and feeling more like the original and they're more likely to offer the full range of sensation that a purely metal limb lacks. Then again, in SW this is largely moot since their artificial limbs consist of a metal skeleton with a covering that looks and responds just as an organic hand would, giving the patient the best of both worlds.

[Junghalli]

On the other hand, the SW medics can pretty much turn you into a completely cybernetic creature except for your brain if they want to, which could extend your life to an absurd degree

The thing about that is the brain still ages, so you might end up with a very long lifespan but most of it as a senile semi-vegetable.

[Starglider]

The thing about that is the brain still ages, so you might end up with a very long lifespan but most of it as a senile semi-vegetable.

Both universes have upload technology, though in SW it uses something close to the standard technology base whereas in ST it seems to be lost precursor tech.

[Bounty]

The thing about that is the brain still ages, so you might end up with a very long lifespan but most of it as a senile semi-vegetable.

Both universes have upload technology, though in SW it uses something close to the standard technology base whereas in ST it seems to be lost precursor tech.

Maybe not entirely lost as much as "as good as lost". Ira Graves was planning to upload his mind to his computer and successfully uploaded himself into Data; even if his recovered documents, lab and assistant don't offer enough information to immediately replicate the process, it is at least possible with civilian Federation tech.

[Starglider]

Maybe not entirely lost as much as "as good as lost". Ira Graves was planning to upload his mind to his computer and successfully uploaded himself into Data; even if his recovered documents, lab and assistant don't offer enough information to immediately replicate the process, it is at least possible with civilian Federation tech.

Data is an outlier in several respects, and this is one of them. My guess is that normal Federation AIs are constructed with techniques similar to conventional programming (this is in line with the slow improvement in capability we saw over the years), whereas Data's CPU is far more brain-like (we constantly hear about his 'neural net' and 'positronic pathways', whereas AFAIK that's never been mentioned for the holodoctor etc). Graves managed to perfect brain-scanning, probably a very similar technique that Soong later used to make an android copy of his wife, but either couldn't write adequate brain simulation software or the Federation computer he was using didn't have the power to run it. The fact that he was able to put the scan pretty much directly into Data's hardware, without knowing much about it, suggests that Data's CPU is very brainlike. Presumably his original plan was to try and translate the brain scan into a more code-like AI that could run on normal Federation computers, and that's the part that failed (resulting in only 'data files, no personality' or whatever Riker said). That is fairly realistic; translating a mind into an entirely new structure would be much, much harder than simply copying it to a new substrate.

[Darth Wong]

It's been a few years since I saw that episode. At the end, didn't he transfer himself from Data to the ship's computer, whereupon his personality was lost and he just became a bunch of memory data?

[Bounty]

It's been a few years since I saw that episode. At the end, didn't he transfer himself from Data to the ship's computer, whereupon his personality was lost and he just became a bunch of memory data?

He did. I wrongly assumed that there wouldn't be a difference between uploading to Data's brain and uploading to a generic computer, when there obviously was one. Since Data's brain was never successfully replicated by anyone but Soong, Starglider was right to call it a lost tech.

[Academia Nut]

It's still attached to a bog-standard organic joint with all the stress limitations that entails. The limb itself will be more robust, and if the weight is kept down that'll definitely be an advantage in terms of durability, but it won't offer a significant advantage when in use; I don't think there'll be a great deal of different between a virtually indestructible metal leg and a squishier organic one in terms of what the patient will actually use it for. Excluding the oddball situation where you need a club fast.

The cybernetic limbs almost certainly have a durability advantage over organic ones seeing as how in Return of the Jedi Luke got shot in his cybernetic hand with a blaster and his hand was still operational. In fact, if I remember correctly, the damage was superficial enough that he just put a glove over it and never went to go get it checked out when he was with the Rebel fleet before heading off to Endor, because if I remember right him seeing the damage to his hand during his fight with Vader was one of the things that made him realize that if he walked the Dark Path then he too would become like his father, twisted and more machine than man. Considering that at the very least blasters have to cause damage comparable to modern fire arms to be used, that's a hell of a lot of durability while still retaining sensitivity and flexibility. Even if shot with a .22 pistol round, I think most people would lose the use of their hand for a couple of weeks if lucky.

[Solauren]

It's been a few years since I saw that episode. At the end, didn't he transfer himself from Data to the ship's computer, whereupon his personality was lost and he just became a bunch of memory data?

He did. I wrongly assumed that there wouldn't be a difference between uploading to Data's brain and uploading to a generic computer, when there obviously was one. Since Data's brain was never successfully replicated by anyone but Soong, Starglider was right to call it a lost tech.

As for the transfer of consciouness by Dr. Graves, it's entirely possible he deliberately ditched his personality into oblivion out of guilt of what he did. Effectively committing suicide while perserving his intellect (as he originally wanted to do).

I mean, he was rejected, and then hurt, but the woman he was in love with (or at least hot as hell for), and realised he was unstable (which is very dangerous in a androids body).


As for the general topic; we should also restrict this to human considerations (the only common species in both galaxies) when discussing Star Trek medical technology.

Consider the example of the 'grow Worf a new spine'. Apparently, the problem was the lack of research into spine repairs by the Klingons. They even commented Klingon neurlogical medicine was so primative because the Klingons let patients die under these conditions. To me, it seems like they were expecting the Klingons to know how to fix this. Probably based on the fact Federation doctors can generally fix problems like that in federation species.

The doctors had to attempt to apply medical techniques developed for and by Federation species to a different life form, which probably had a lot to do with the mobility loss Worf was going to suffer.

I admit, it's a bit of an an assumption, true, but if you consider some of the other injuries we've seen or heard of repaired on Star Trek, it's within the realm of feasiblity.

[Darth Wong]

As for the transfer of consciouness by Dr. Graves, it's entirely possible he deliberately ditched his personality into oblivion out of guilt of what he did. Effectively committing suicide while perserving his intellect (as he originally wanted to do).

I mean, he was rejected, and then hurt, but the woman he was in love with (or at least hot as hell for), and realised he was unstable (which is very dangerous in a androids body).

Yes, but by that token we could also say it's entirely possible that Klingons can fly, and we just haven't seen them do it.

Let's face it though: in Star Trek, there is an intangible "soul", which is treated as a blob of energy. That blob of energy can move around, possess objects or people, take control of computers (as we saw way back in the TOS episode "Wolf in the Fold"), but it can't really be treated as data. Even when it appears to be in a computer, it seems to be controlling all or part of it, rather than actually being turned into computer data. The pseudo-mysticism of Star Trek has roots that go far back, and even the seemingly more anti-religious TNG series never really moved away from this.

[18-Till-I-Die]

If you take into acount the documented existence of psionic ability in Star Trek, then the idea of this "blob of energy" kind of soul makes a lot of sense actually. That psionic force or energy, whatever it is, must manifest in some way other than Troi saying she can sense people's pain or some shit. Also apparently beings can exist with or without physical bodies if need be...so obviously there is some energy or force at work here. Though it's actually present in inanimate objects to a degree as well, or else these souls couldn't possess machines, and if the soul=intelligence then Data would by necessity have one too and that would handily explain his ability to house the dude's soul while the ship's computer was unable to (also it would explain why the process of housing both souls was fucking them up, kind of like two people trying to fit into one jacket). And then you have that "Skin of Evil" thing, or i think that was the title, where the people of the planet actually took the "evil" part of their souls out and left it behind like you would throw out the trash. An exorcism of sorts. In this way, the ST equivalent of a soul would be closer to the concept of an Anima in many native religions.

Which would make "energy beings" like the Q something closer to Djinns or 'evil spirits'...which would actually make sense too, considering what Q considers a "good time" being rather similar to what the genie in Wishmaster does when he has some time to kil (yes that was a pun).

[Batman]

Why would the documented existence of psionic ability in Star Trek require for there to actually be a soul? Trek is LOUSY with examples for that apparently being the case of course but all that is required for telepathy/empathy to work is either the ability to passively decipher brain emissions or to actively scan the brain and what it's currently doing in sufficient detail. To a very limited degree we can do so TODAY.