A couple questions

[BoosterBronze]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Just a couple questions for my more experienced colleagues.

Lightsaber-vs-Phaser.
If we ignore energy output, the phaser has the major difference from a blaster as it can function as a continuous beam. Would this pose a problem for Jedi as they could conceivably only block one phaser beam at a time (as opposed to near effortlessly blocking a half-dozen blaster shots in mere seconds)?

-Fantasy Scenario-
I've never read a technical manual for either franchise. While I dig this site, the exact numbers of joules generated doesn't usually interest me when I'm into my escapist sci-fi movies. So what if there was a gross simplification in a Trek/Wars battle where we assume things that look alike and have similar functions between the two universes are basically alike?

If we were to grant a rough technological parity between turbo-lasers and starship phasers, and that Federation and Imperial shielding were roughly equivilent, what type of fight might the Federation be able to put up? They would still no doubt lose, impossibly outnumbered by the Imperial war machine and outproduced by the Imperial industrial base, but what kind of struggle might it be?

[Singular Intellect]

If we were to grant a rough technological parity between turbo-lasers and starship phasers, and that Federation and Imperial shielding were roughly equivilent, what type of fight might the Federation be able to put up? They would still no doubt lose, impossibly outnumbered by the Imperial war machine and outproduced by the Imperial industrial base, but what kind of struggle might it be?

Picture the US military intent on bringing it's full might (and being ruthless about it) upon a small town filled with rednecks armed to the teeth with booze, shotguns and pistols. Perhaps they'd could even get fancy and weld some slabs of meta armor onto their pickup trucks.

[Ted C]

Lightsaber-vs-Phaser.
If we ignore energy output, the phaser has the major difference from a blaster as it can function as a continuous beam. Would this pose a problem for Jedi as they could conceivably only block one phaser beam at a time (as opposed to near effortlessly blocking a half-dozen blaster shots in mere seconds)?

Probably not much. With the ability to block beam attacks of this type at all, it's likely that a Jedi could simply angle the lightsabre to catch more than one beam at a time, if they were both aimed at his/her torso. Since combat training teaches you to aim at the target's center of mass, that shouldn't be a problem.

Assuming that lightsabres will reflect phaser beams the way they do blaster bolts, it also shouldn't be much of a problem to reflect the beam right back at the attacker. The fact that it's a continous beam might actually make this part of handling a phaser-armed opponent easier.

-Fantasy Scenario-
I've never read a technical manual for either franchise. While I dig this site, the exact numbers of joules generated doesn't usually interest me when I'm into my escapist sci-fi movies. So what if there was a gross simplification in a Trek/Wars battle where we assume things that look alike and have similar functions between the two universes are basically alike?

Then all of the other advantages that the Empire has over the Federation (it's enormously superior resource base of around a million planets compared to the Federations 150, for example) would still assure victory for the Empire.

If we were to grant a rough technological parity between turbo-lasers and starship phasers, and that Federation and Imperial shielding were roughly equivilent, what type of fight might the Federation be able to put up? They would still no doubt lose, impossibly outnumbered by the Imperial war machine and outproduced by the Imperial industrial base, but what kind of struggle might it be?

Even with technological parity, the Federation is strategically inept, and they only manage to survive because their opponents are equally inept. The Rebellion survives in the Star Wars galaxy by avoiding direct confrontations as much as possible; they scored one major victory just before the events of "A New Hope" and another with the destruction of the Death Star, but they generally got their butts kicked any time they tried to go up against the Imperial military. They didn't really want to go toe-to-toe with the Imperial Navy in ROTJ, either, but they really needed to take out that second Death Star if they could. Even so, they were getting their butts kicked again until the Emperor croaked.

[Swindle1984]

If we were to grant a rough technological parity between turbo-lasers and starship phasers, and that Federation and Imperial shielding were roughly equivilent, what type of fight might the Federation be able to put up? They would still no doubt lose, impossibly outnumbered by the Imperial war machine and outproduced by the Imperial industrial base, but what kind of struggle might it be?

Picture the US military intent on bringing it's full might (and being ruthless about it) upon a small town filled with rednecks armed to the teeth with booze, shotguns and pistols. Perhaps they'd could even get fancy and weld some slabs of meta armor onto their pickup trucks.

I think that might be giving too much credit to the Feddies. The rednecks at least tend to display signs of marksmanship.

Besides, you'd be surprised how many armored vehicles exist in po-dunk towns. Heck, I live in a suburb of a major city and there's a privately-owned M-60 tank and a howitzer, both live, parked not three miles from my house. And there's a dealer specializing in importing surplus British and Soviet armor into the US in town too, though he has to deactivate the weaponry on all of his imports first.

So, yeah, I'm betting a bunch of heavily-armed rednecks with some prior planning and preparation could put up more of a fight than the Federation could, assuming Federation and Imperial weapons and shields were roughly equivelent.

[The Romulan Republic]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Just a couple questions for my more experienced colleagues.

Welcome aboard .

Lightsaber-vs-Phaser.
If we ignore energy output, the phaser has the major difference from a blaster as it can function as a continuous beam. Would this pose a problem for Jedi as they could conceivably only block one phaser beam at a time (as opposed to near effortlessly blocking a half-dozen blaster shots in mere seconds)?

I have no idea, but phasers seem a lot lower power than blasters, which do a better job of punching through armor.

I'd think a bigger problem with regards to blocking phasers with a light saber is the wide-beam setting. I'm honestly suprised this is never brought up.

-Fantasy Scenario-
I've never read a technical manual for either franchise. While I dig this site, the exact numbers of joules generated doesn't usually interest me when I'm into my escapist sci-fi movies. So what if there was a gross simplification in a Trek/Wars battle where we assume things that look alike and have similar functions between the two universes are basically alike?

If we were to grant a rough technological parity between turbo-lasers and starship phasers, and that Federation and Imperial shielding were roughly equivilent, what type of fight might the Federation be able to put up? They would still no doubt lose, impossibly outnumbered by the Imperial war machine and outproduced by the Imperial industrial base, but what kind of struggle might it be?

This has already been covered by others I see, but the Empire would still retain a massive numerical advantage. For a more detailed and meaningful comparison, here are some numbers:

The Federation has over 150 major worlds, while the Empire has about a million (and about 50 million minor ones I believe).

The Federation and its neighbors appear to have fleets numbering in the thousands, possibly including fighters. The Empire, in contrast, has 25000 Star Destroyers alone.

Note also that since Hyperdive looks and functions rather differently than warp, the Empire might still retain their strategic FTL advantage in your hypothetical senario (at least after they chart out the anomally-filled local space).

Thus the fight, while doubtless longer, would ultimately still go to the Empire, provided they were serious enough about it to devote a major force. However, given how thinly the Empire seems to be spread and the non-aggressive, non-interventionist nature of the Federation, at least a temporary diplomatic arrangement would seem quite plausible in this situation.

The Borg, however, would represent a very serious threat to the Empire under these circumstances. They have faster FTL than the Federation with transwarp, and fleets of possibly thousands of cubes bigger than Star Destroyers. The Borg in the senario you have described would be, to use a favorite phrase of John McCain's, an "existential threat" to the Empire, rather than a source of harrasment to be quickly erradicated.

[Stark]

I'd think a bigger problem with regards to blocking phasers with a light saber is the wide-beam setting. I'm honestly suprised this is never brought up.

Your ignorance and stupidity is awesome. One, it's been bought up FOR MORE THAN A DECADE. Two, geometry and evidence suggests it can't be used for high-power blasts (it appears stun-limited, which is probably a max-power blast diffused) and Jedi can already ignore stun shots in SW.

Ooops.

Incidently Clone Wars shows Jedi redirecting continuous-beam attacks and using the saber to direct the beam across many enemies and then back at the source. This suggests continuous-beam weapons will be even more dangerous to the shooters.

[Batman]

I'd think a bigger problem with regards to blocking phasers with a light saber is the wide-beam setting. I'm honestly suprised this is never brought up.

It HAS been brought up. Repeatedly. AND dismissed as the widebeam setting has never been used on anything other than stun and at ludicrously low ranges.

[Kythnos]

-Fantasy Scenario-
I've never read a technical manual for either franchise. While I dig this site, the exact numbers of joules generated doesn't usually interest me when I'm into my escapist sci-fi movies. So what if there was a gross simplification in a Trek/Wars battle where we assume things that look alike and have similar functions between the two universes are basically alike?

If we were to grant a rough technological parity between turbo-lasers and starship phasers, and that Federation and Imperial shielding were roughly equivilent, what type of fight might the Federation be able to put up? They would still no doubt lose, impossibly outnumbered by the Imperial war machine and outproduced by the Imperial industrial base, but what kind of struggle might it be?

This is a problem that a lot of people have the mentality between both universe are just not compatible Star Wars builds Warship, the Federation does not.
The Galaxy Class Enterprise had 10 phaser banks and 2 torpedo launchers. Even if we bump that number to 20 total weapons, it is still massively out gunned.
The ISD has 60 Turbolaser batteries, so to be equal it the Phaser would have to be 3 times as powerfull. The ISD also has 60 Ion cannons, and a wing of Tie Fighters and a few small attack craft, which would kick up that number to at least 8 times as powerful depending on the power the Fighters would have in "your comparison".

This is not a big problem because the Federation does not use their ships in wars much, well not that they don't use them in wars but the Federation is at peace most of the time. Just like you would not send an Iowa class battleship for disaster relief, you would not send a ISD on most of the missions that the Enterprise went on, the power they use would not make it cost effective.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'd think a bigger problem with regards to blocking phasers with a light saber is the wide-beam setting. I'm honestly suprised this is never brought up.

Your ignorance and stupidity is awesome. One, it's been bought up FOR MORE THAN A DECADE. Two, geometry and evidence suggests it can't be used for high-power blasts (it appears stun-limited, which is probably a max-power blast diffused) and Jedi can already ignore stun shots in SW.

Ooops.

Yes indeed. I'm ignorant and stupid because I'm not as familliar with an obscure aspect of the vs debate as you are. Nevermind that the Star Trek vs Star Wars debate on this site has been nearly dead for years before I joined or probably before I was even aware of the vs debate.

Look asshole, I may not have your post-count, but I have spent a lot of time reading the old threads and the main site, as well as my brief stay on Spacebattles, and I have at best seen this issue discussed very rarely. So I brought it up. You could have simply explained the point about stunning being ineffective without the flaming (got a source for that, by the way?).

[Ghost Rider]

I'd think a bigger problem with regards to blocking phasers with a light saber is the wide-beam setting. I'm honestly suprised this is never brought up.

Your ignorance and stupidity is awesome. One, it's been bought up FOR MORE THAN A DECADE. Two, geometry and evidence suggests it can't be used for high-power blasts (it appears stun-limited, which is probably a max-power blast diffused) and Jedi can already ignore stun shots in SW.

Ooops.

Yes indeed. I'm ignorant and stupid because I'm not as familliar with an obscure aspect of the vs debate as you are. Nevermind that the Star Trek vs Star Wars debate on this site has been nearly dead for years before I joined or probably before I was even aware of the vs debate.

Look asshole, I may not have your post-count, but I have spent a lot of time reading the old threads and the main site, as well as my brief stay on Spacebattles, and I have at best seen this issue discussed very rarely. So I brought it up. You could have simply explained the point about stunning being ineffective without the flaming (got a source for that, by the way?).

Actually you're desperately ignorant on one thing and just didn't use the search function on the wide beam phaser bit.

Care to back your assertion that Phasers punch through armor better then blasters?

[Alien-Carrot]

Care to back your assertion that Phasers punch through armor better then blasters?

I have no idea, but phasers seem a lot lower power than blasters, which do a better job of punching through armor.

Either im reading this wrong or you are. It seems to me as if he's saying that blasters punch through armor better than phasers.

Mabye its just the way the sentence is written. Damn english language.

[Ghost Rider]

Care to back your assertion that Phasers punch through armor better then blasters?

I have no idea, but phasers seem a lot lower power than blasters, which do a better job of punching through armor.

Either im reading this wrong or you are. It seems to me as if he's saying that blasters punch through armor better than phasers.

Mabye its just the way the sentence is written. Damn english language.

I read that bit wrong. I stand corrected.

[The Romulan Republic]

Actually you're desperately ignorant on one thing and just didn't use the search function on the wide beam phaser bit.

Oh I know about the search function, and maybe if I'd used I'd have found some previous examples of this topic. If I posted too quickly, I'm sorry.

That said, it was just a little tangent. Its not like I put up a new thread on the subject. I do often use the search function if I'm thinking of starting a new topic. I honestly don't think it occured to me to do a search on wide-beam phaser settings before I posted. Sorry for any irritation.

[Darth Hoth]

This is not a big problem because the Federation does not use their ships in wars much, well not that they don't use them in wars but the Federation is at peace most of the time. Just like you would not send an Iowa class battleship for disaster relief, you would not send a ISD on most of the missions that the Enterprise went on, the power they use would not make it cost effective.

Which is a sign that they are retards who do not bother with a military when there are major hostile, or at least unfriendly, powers on their border. Sweden has not been in a war for almost two hundred years, and we still have a military (though it has been a joke over the last decades and is being converted to "disaster relief/peacekeeping missions of mercy" abroad, rather than national defence, so perhaps the analogy is a little off . . . however, Sweden has friendly neighbours, the Feds do not).

[Samuel]

This is not a big problem because the Federation does not use their ships in wars much, well not that they don't use them in wars but the Federation is at peace most of the time. Just like you would not send an Iowa class battleship for disaster relief, you would not send a ISD on most of the missions that the Enterprise went on, the power they use would not make it cost effective.

Which is a sign that they are retards who do not bother with a military when there are major hostile, or at least unfriendly, powers on their border. Sweden has not been in a war for almost two hundred years, and we still have a military (though it has been a joke over the last decades and is being converted to "disaster relief/peacekeeping missions of mercy" abroad, rather than national defence, so perhaps the analogy is a little off . . . however, Sweden has friendly neighbours, the Feds do not).

Except the Federation was in a cold war with the Sovi- Klingons during TOS, a threat of the Borg from TNG on and a hot war with the Dominion during DS9. They aren't exactly in the most peaceful times, and that is ignoring the anomolies and unfriendly aliens that occur every other day.

[Ted C]

This is not a big problem because the Federation does not use their ships in wars much, well not that they don't use them in wars but the Federation is at peace most of the time. Just like you would not send an Iowa class battleship for disaster relief, you would not send a ISD on most of the missions that the Enterprise went on, the power they use would not make it cost effective.

Except the Federation was in a cold war with the Sovi- Klingons during TOS, a threat of the Borg from TNG on and a hot war with the Dominion during DS9. They aren't exactly in the most peaceful times, and that is ignoring the anomolies and unfriendly aliens that occur every other day.

Heck, the Federation has been in an almost constant state of war with somebody it seems. Before the Dominion and the Borg, there was the Cardassian War, and before that the Talarian War, and before that come kind of border conflict with the Romulans that resulted in the Norkan Massacres.

The Federation seems to be fighting all the time, actually. You'd think they'd be better at it.

[Darth Wong]

Actually you're desperately ignorant on one thing and just didn't use the search function on the wide beam phaser bit.

Oh I know about the search function, and maybe if I'd used I'd have found some previous examples of this topic. If I posted too quickly, I'm sorry.

That said, it was just a little tangent. Its not like I put up a new thread on the subject. I do often use the search function if I'm thinking of starting a new topic. I honestly don't think it occured to me to do a search on wide-beam phaser settings before I posted. Sorry for any irritation.

The larger problem is not so much that you posted without searching, but that the simple geometry of the situation did not occur to you. Take a phaser beam; let's assume it's 5mm wide. Now take that same phaser beam and assume that it widens to a 45 degree wide cone. Do the math to see how the intensity of the beam will plummet: at a range of 10 metres, what will its intensity be, compared to the original narrow beam?

If I fire a 7.62mm bullet at you, it will punch through your skull as if it's made of tissue paper. Now suppose I hurl an object at you with the same kinetic energy, but it's 18 feet wide. It won't even make it to you; the air will stop it first.

[The Romulan Republic]

The larger problem is not so much that you posted without searching, but that the simple geometry of the situation did not occur to you. Take a phaser beam; let's assume it's 5mm wide. Now take that same phaser beam and assume that it widens to a 45 degree wide cone. Do the math to see how the intensity of the beam will plummet: at a range of 10 metres, what will its intensity be, compared to the original narrow beam?

If I fire a 7.62mm bullet at you, it will punch through your skull as if it's made of tissue paper. Now suppose I hurl an object at you with the same kinetic energy, but it's 18 feet wide. It won't even make it to you; the air will stop it first.

I see the point, and I realize that the beam would be weaker. Weather it would be so much weaker that only a stun shot would be possible I don't know, but in the absense of any example of someone firing to kill on wide beam I suppose we have to go with the demonstrated capabillities.

However, with regards to Jedi being invulnerable to stun shots, while it makes sense, I'm having trouble recalling specific canon examples. So I'll go see if I can find some. As I said though it seems reasonable that Jedi would have some resistance, given we see Jedi during Order 66 get hit with multiple blasts that would probably blow a metal battledroid apart.

[Connor MacLeod]

I see the point, and I realize that the beam would be weaker. Weather it would be so much weaker that only a stun shot would be possible I don't know, but in the absense of any example of someone firing to kill on wide beam I suppose we have to go with the demonstrated capabillities.

However, with regards to Jedi being invulnerable to stun shots, while it makes sense, I'm having trouble recalling specific canon examples. So I'll go see if I can find some. As I said though it seems reasonable that Jedi would have some resistance, given we see Jedi during Order 66 get hit with multiple blasts that would probably blow a metal battledroid apart.

Heir to the Empire and courtship of Princess Leia come immediately to mind (Luke mentiosn such powers in HTTE and I recall its witnessed in Courtship). I'm pretty sure WEG and WOTC had a "resist stun" force power as well.

[Ted C]

I see the point, and I realize that the beam would be weaker. Weather it would be so much weaker that only a stun shot would be possible I don't know, but in the absense of any example of someone firing to kill on wide beam I suppose we have to go with the demonstrated capabillities.

The issue with something like a wide-beam phaser is similar to the "inverse square law", although the formula will be different, because that rule applies to non-directional energy releases, like bombs. In that case, if you double the distance from the bomb, the target takes one quarter as much energy from it. Triple the distance, one-nineth of the energy. Expand as needed.

A cone-shaped beam from a phaser won't drop in power as quickly as that, but it will drop pretty fast. In practice, the best we've seen a wide-beam phaser do is stun a group of people at a range of less than ten meters. In actual battle situations, Federation personnel invariably use only narrow beams, so we can reasonably conclude that wide beams aren't that useful. In a "security" situation involving a single Jedi, using a wide beam might occur to someone, but I'd hesitate to get close enough to a Jedi for the wide-beam setting to be effective.

As for Jedi durability versus phaser stun effectiveness, we know that with a little augmentation, a human can become highly resistant to phaser stuns (TNG "The Hunted"). A Jedi can withstand blows from a cyborg that can dent metal plate with its fists, and Clone Troopers typically had to hit a Jedi with several blaster bolts to bring one down ("Revenge of the Sith"), so it's not much of a stretch to think that a Jedi would be pretty resistant to phaser stuns.

[harbringer]

Blasters seem to be easier to aim than a phaser which automatically makes them a better weapon ST redshirts seem to kneel put the phaser up then tilt it aim and fire, by the time they do this the Jedi just jumped 15 feet and sliced them in two on the way down. You have to be able to get the shot off first before you even worry about if it will be hard to handle.. as phasers don't seem to be affected by massive recoil (otherwise you wouldn't be able to hold it - there is no butt) and jedi are very fast I doubt it will be a problem as long as the lightsaber can stop the beam, whats more you can use the lightsaber to bounce the beam then you can sweep the room with a constant beam it does after all work both ways. Given how badly redshirts do against normal opponents who cant do the things a Jedi can I really cant see much success on a bright note there aren't too many jedi to shoot at.

We have never been able to figure out a hard number for a phaser as it behaves in strange ways depending on what you shoot and how. Blasters though have been shot at rated materials that make it easier to figure out the firepower and blasters are fairly powerful I honestly can't see a good reason to rate a phaser the same unless your deliberately giving star trek a crutch, which in this sort of debate is insanely stupid. After all if I said if only I looked like brad pitt I would pull more ladies than him so lets just assume I do would that be a good argument for why I can pull more ladies????.

[Batman]

Blasters seem to be easier to aim than a phaser which automatically makes them a better weapon

TNG phasers are. TOS phasers were NOT. So, no, this does NOT automatically make them the better weapon. The considerably higher firepower of blasters (in a given size package) is what does.
As for how much less powerful widebeam would be compared to standard phaser fire, assuming a 30° arc (nevermind a cone) and a beam diameter of 1cm for your typical phaser beam, at a range of 5 metres the intensity of the beam would drop to less than a 65,000th of a standard phaser shot.

[Kythnos]

We have never been able to figure out a hard number for a phaser as it behaves in strange ways depending on what you shoot and how.

Funny thing is this is one of the reasons why they would make “poor weapons”. Ask just about any soldier who has been in a battle they want their weapons to do “One thing and do it well, the last thing I need to be thinking about why people trying to kill me is ‘what setting my weapon is on’. If I really need to stun someone give me a second weapon for that. ” That being said if you where exploring a planet then the phaser becomes great, it has a setting for everything cutting trees, making fire, digging holes, even making a 3 course meal for you.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually wasnt there some TNG ep where they were putting a phaser rifle through its paces and its efficiency was something like 92% (and the usual effienciy was only like 85%?) A power outupt was stated there too.

[harbringer]

I didn't account for TOS as that pattern of phaser is out of service as is the photon grenade mortar. I referred to the TNG as most people pull proof from that series; However as that is the first argument that people picked out of my post I will take the compliment as I obviously didn't make huge errors.

The main problem is that most star fleet security equate small unit tactics with take cover. Ok in 1-3 of the star wars series clones tend to grind forward and trade blood for ground but they do move and fire and leapfrog teams. In 4-5 stormtrooper tactics actually are not that bad, even if they can't hit Chewbacca at point blank due to character shielding better than the alderan planetary one. What will reinforce this is that blasters seem to be more powerful and at least when clones/stormtroopers/droids are concerned fairly accurate (not too say perfect there will always be wasted shots but the rate of fire makes up for this). I don't see it being even this close in space since the number of guns, powerful guns with a high rate of fire to boot without looking at super lasers like fitted to some wars cap ships which should just cut trek ships like a knife through butter. This is why capture seems to be a topic that gets tossed around a bit since it is harder to achieve than a clean kill.. well at least for wars.

It is end of the day just my opinion but I haven't seen anything that made me go "ooohhh ahhh" that just rocks when watching trek.