Slave 1 vs the Enterprise D (a few technical questions)

[Azron_Stoma]

on the 5 minutes page it describes the potential of the Slave 1 outperforming the Enterprise D in every way, however there are some questions I have about the figures,

the time averaged output, what time is that in, and how much torpedo fire can be made in that time? assuming 2kt per shot, compared to the 50mt per shot torpedoes, it would take a long time even with a firing rate of 420 wouldn't it? considering how many torpedoes a galaxy class can normally take, and since Phaser power, being chain reaction based, is difficult to put a real fix on, the closest comparison we have is the torpedoes.

so, would I be correct to assume that, the Enterprise D, which normally can fire 3 torpedoes per burst with 3-5 second intervals between, for RPM of 60 or so tops, which means 3 gigatons per minute, compared to the Slave 1 guns (I know the missiles and especially the seismic charges can dish out ALOT more punishment) which would be less than 1 megaton per minute,


did I make a mistake or was it intentional that the Slave 1 would not be able to take on the enterprise with blasters alone?

[harbringer]

As I am certain this has been done before my advice is look at the movie (AOTC) Look at how much punishment the guns put down and their high rate of fire. As for the shields im not sure there is an easy way to do that without spending money on the cross section books (which are good value by the way). Then after you have seen all this do a search and find the previous threads go through them see if you agree and if you don't and have a good reason then start a thread this also goes for any other topic.

[Ghost Rider]

on the 5 minutes page it describes the potential of the Slave 1 outperforming the Enterprise D in every way, however there are some questions I have about the figures,

the time averaged output, what time is that in, and how much torpedo fire can be made in that time? assuming 2kt per shot, compared to the 50mt per shot torpedoes, it would take a long time even with a firing rate of 420 wouldn't it? considering how many torpedoes a galaxy class can normally take, and since Phaser power, being chain reaction based, is difficult to put a real fix on, the closest comparison we have is the torpedoes.

So we're taking the highest yielded weapon the Ent-D can field to the lowest end the Slave-1 can field? Before we go into endurance, you're literally cherry picking the examples for what reason again? Oh wait, it's because you do not want to compare the lowest weaponry because of your dislike to put work into something?

And two, saying because phasers use chain reaction mechanism is a false notion. You can tell a low end by observing what it effect is on objective items or at least give a close notion to real world items. Using this is as dishonest as looking at an explosion and asking "It's spread out, you cannot tell."

so, would I be correct to assume that, the Enterprise D, which normally can fire 3 torpedoes per burst with 3-5 second intervals between, for RPM of 60 or so tops, which means 3 gigatons per minute, compared to the Slave 1 guns (I know the missiles and especially the seismic charges can dish out ALOT more punishment) which would be less than 1 megaton per minute,


did I make a mistake or was it intentional that the Slave 1 would not be able to take on the enterprise with blasters alone?

Give us a solid example of the shield and then prove also the speed at which the torpedos are fired and provide that the Enterprise is hitting the Slave-1.

Again this is old hat news, and time and time again it is on your onus to prove this to Mike, in this particular.

[Azron_Stoma]

I think you misunderstand me, I'm not trying to be a pro-trek debater, nor am I trying to "cherry pick" nor do I "dislike to put work into something" I simply don't have the confidence that I can reach proper conclusions on my own and hit a snag as a result, thus I am asking.

It has been stated numerous times, by mike, and other parts of this forum, that its next to impossible to tell how much power phasers have from their output energy alone, on the same 5 minutes page it's stated that the actual power is deceptively low, and elsewhere on the forums that they are dependent on the materials they are firing on, at least as I understand it.

whether or not the enterprise D can hit the Slave 1 is irrelevant for this, I'm just curious as to how long it would take for the weapons to break through the shields, since I'm not sure what the "time averaged" output refers to, per minute? second?

i've seen on screen in an episode or two the torpedoes being fired in bursts of 2-3, with a few seconds in between bursts, the 60 rpm is pretty darn high but still, the fact that it appears as if it could be 1 rpm and still be 50x the Slave 1's blasters is something I'm curious about.

and I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm simply asking a question.
so there's no need to be rude and accuse me of being some kind of dishonest troll.

I'm just curious for the sake of well, curiosity, not trying to tip the scales in any way.

[Batman]

'Time averaged' means exactly was it says. It doesn't MATTER what the time involved is. 64TW is 64TW. Depending on how long the salvo lasts the TOTAL energy delivered naturally changes but the PER TIME UNIT (whatever the unit of your choice may be) energy delivered remains the same. In the case of Slave one, apparently 64TJ/sec.
Also, note that the main page is woefully out of date. The 64MT photon torpedoes are in deference to the by now officially non-canon TNG Tech Manual (and are never explicitly stated to be that yield in it, that's just the theoretical maximum you can get from the stated antimatter payload). Actual TV torpedoes are closer to the midrange three figure KT level.
But let's use your 50MT torpedoes. To bring down Slave 1's shields (assuming they are NOT noticeably weaker than those of Amidala's yacht) and assuming 50% yield actually delivered the big E needs to hit Slave one with 19 torpedoes a second. I think that's a BIT higher a refire rate than we've seen so far. and that's ignoring they have only a limited number of them while Slave 1 can essentially fire those guns until it runs out of fuel.
I trust I need not recompute for REALISTIC photorp yields.
Whereas Slave 1's guns apparently exceed the big E's shield dissipation rate by a factor of not quite 20.

[Azron_Stoma]

thanks a ton, and yeah I remember reading things about the midrange KT level torps but I forgot about that briefly since the 50MT thing was so widely accepted, but then I recall the calcs done from Pegasus and such and yeah, still even with 50MT

once again thanks for clearing that up, so if I'm interpreting this right, a single burst from the Slave 1 could potentially down their shields?

[Covenant]

thanks a ton, and yeah I remember reading things about the midrange KT level torps but I forgot about that briefly since the 50MT thing was so widely accepted, but then I recall the calcs done from Pegasus and such and yeah, still even with 50MT

once again thanks for clearing that up, so if I'm interpreting this right, a single burst from the Slave 1 could potentially down their shields?

Well, you need to be a bit more specific about how long a burst is, but the Ent-D's shields aren't used to dealing with the kinds of power levels we're looking at, so it's entirely likely they'd collapse extremely quickly. Honestly though, it's not about the blasters. If Slave-1 wanted to disable the Enterprise as quickly as possible it'd use heavier weapons, not the fast-tracking anti-fighter chin guns. This really isn't a knock on the Ent-D, it's just... you know... the way you interpert the math. Even if the rocks that were being shot were ice or some kind of easily-shattered foamy rock we have visual data from other sources that puts the Ent-D's shields low enough that even conventional nuclear weapons could be a threat to it.

[ThePorkchopExpress]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSq117ziFVo

In this vid here, Fett opens up non stop for 23 seconds from the time he loops behind Kenobi till he damages the left wing of his craft: minute 4:39 to 5:02. He then sends a missile after him.

Thats 184 shots.

[Lord Revan]

how ever, we didn't see Jango try to shoot Obi-Wan with his guns and fizzle out due lack of ammo, so while it's good at enstablishing a lower limit, it's not nesserly the full ammo capacy of Slave 1 (as Obi-Wan's Delta-7 was both smaller and more manourverble in what was essentially an obsticle course).

[Captain Seafort]

how ever, we didn't see Jango try to shoot Obi-Wan with his guns and fizzle out due lack of ammo, so while it's good at enstablishing a lower limit, it's not nesserly the full ammo capacy of Slave 1 (as Obi-Wan's Delta-7 was both smaller and more manourverble in what was essentially an obsticle course).

He might not even have been firing at full power at the time, precisely because of the D7's manoeuverability - he'd have been better off trading power for RoF to try and score a hit.

[ThePorkchopExpress]

None of the bolts seemed to pass by the D7. So either they had some proximity fuse, they were impacting the shields, or hitting rocks.

I'm likely to think the shots were hitting the shields which is why when the shields finally collapsed Jengo lets loose with a homing missile.

Chasing down a small manueverable triangle in an asteroid field with guns is not my idea of good father son bonding time. The missile itself prolly wouldnt have done jack till the shields came down.

Wish my dad had been an intergalactic bounty hunter... pssh.

[NecronLord]

In TOS, phaser bolts regularly seem to explode as proximity blasts. It's quite normal.

[ThePorkchopExpress]

In TOS, phaser bolts regularly seem to explode as proximity blasts. It's quite normal.

Sure they werent photo torps? I must admit i havnt watched to many TOS eps recently.

I was thinking of picking up the new special effects remasters eps for kicks.

[NecronLord]

Sure they werent photo torps? I must admit i havnt watched to many TOS eps recently.

Both did this. Of course, in TOS, there was no reason to think that a photon torpedo was anything other than a bigger phaser bolt. The idea that they were physical projectiles only came in with ST 1/2.

[ThePorkchopExpress]

True, back in the days when the stories were about people and events... and not gizmos and gadgets. *sigh*

I'm trying to think of other instances in star wars where turbo lasers appeared to have detonated around another ship..

I remember seeing some air bursts on the surface of Hoth. But in the attack on the 1st Death Star you see Tie shots going past Xwings and impacting the surface of the DS.

[Lord Revan]

well in AOTC the Geonosian fighter's cannon seem to "air burst" around the LAAT/i but that could just be shield inter-action.

[Darth Yoshi]

I remember the main site mentioning that the TIE fighter chase scene in ANH had flak from the Falcon, but I can't find that page. I could be misremembering. *frowns*

[Palantas]

I remember the main site mentioning that the TIE fighter chase scene in ANH had flak from the Falcon, but I can't find that page. I could be misremembering. *frowns*

There's this on the beam weapons page:

Turbolaser bolts are capable of detonating with a "flak effect" at a predetermined range, as demonstrated by ISD fire in TESB (against the Falcon) and AT-AT anti-aircraft fire.

[Illuminatus Primus]

"Flak bursting" violates conservation of energy and momentum in most alleged cases (though there are clearly some type of flak bursting munitions, as seen in many battles, whether the blaster beams themselves can do that is very controversial). Most notably, the behavior of many blaster bolts is inconsistent with projectiles (the Slave 1 shots may be an exception). And in the AOTC ground battle, many of the supposedly "flak bursting" bolts pass through their alleged "bursts".

[ThePorkchopExpress]

I'm watching Ep 2 on spike right now, and actually a good number of shots do pass by the D7 and keep going. So i'd be forced to reckon they're hitting the shields or rocks... mostly like the shield as as soon as he lands hits on the hull he lets loose with a homing missile.