Imperial energy production in Federation tech

[The Romulan Republic]

I do not think that the claim "25.000 year technology gap" is true.

Xim the Despot is the last recorded user of "subspace" technology. Xim was defeated before the Republic was formed 25,000 years ago. The gap does exist.

But hasn't Star Wars tech been largely stagnant for most of that time?

[Serafina]

But hasn't Star Wars tech been largely stagnant for most of that time?

Exactly what i said.
Simply stating "25.000 years" does not say anything, if there is few technolgical develompent.

But:
SW-tech IS far more advanced than ST-tech, and ST would need a lot of time to figure out how to build the tech (perhaps less how to repair it (if they have the right parts), way less how to use (flip the right switches) it).

Actually, the example with modern aircraft in WW2 is not bad - while people from WW2 propably could understand some tech, they would have more problems with other tech.
Things like the angled flightdeck, or putting armor on it could be implemented quickly - you do not need much technology to do that, thats taking a well-thought out idea and using it.
The avionics of the aircraft propably could be used - some of it, because they would lack a lot of tech to fully implement it.
The nuclear reactor would be tricky - they would understand the underlying science (at least the basics of modern nuclear science were known), but building one would be difficult. You can make A LOT wrong if you want to build a nuclear reactor.
All computer parts would way bejond the time - they would not be able to understand the science, they could not build them, and they could not do proper research, due to lack of the right equipment.

Simmilary, ST would have more problems with some SW-technology, less with other.
That would depend on the following points:
-do they have a concept of the underlying science? What if a hyperdrive is competly different from a wardrive?
What about hypermatter? They propably woudl not even know where to begin with the theory.
-Do they have the right tools to do research? What if hypermatter is something they can not even measure?
-Do they have the right tools to build it? In 1940, it woudl have been impossible to build a modern computer - no one
had the right technology.

I can not even estaminate how those points would apply.

[The Romulan Republic]

But hasn't Star Wars tech been largely stagnant for most of that time?

Exactly what i said.
Simply stating "25.000 years" does not say anything, if there is few technolgical develompent.

Quite true.

But:
SW-tech IS far more advanced than ST-tech, and ST would need a lot of time to figure out how to build the tech (perhaps less how to repair it (if they have the right parts), way less how to use (flip the right switches) it).

I think you may be underestimating the difficulties. While its true that those 25000 years have been devellopmentaly static by modern standards, the actual gap is, nonetheless, huge. Also, some technologies have apparently advanced during that time, even if the fundimentals have largely remained unchanged.

-do they have a concept of the underlying science? What if a hyperdrive is competly different from a wardrive?

It seems to be quite different. Warp drives, for one, seem to be less affected by gravity. They also don't seem to require complex course calculations in advance. And the visual appearance of warp flight is very different from hyperspace travel.

[Serafina]

Well, i use modern computers as an analogy:

-Its not difficult to figure out how to USE one - imagine an uneducated person 100 years ago. This person does understand modern language and can read, but thats about it. No scientific knowledge.
Can such a person learn how to use a computer (turn it on, write something, get access to the internet etc.)?
If he is intelligent enough, i think its possible.

Same goes for SW-tech: Starting a hyperdrive would be possible for a ST-person. He just needs to fill in the right coodinates and flip the right switches.

-Compared to this, repairing/maintenace are way more difficult. Lets take our person form 1909 again.
Without any knowledge about science and technology, he will propably not manage it.

However, in ST, we would have engineers and scientist. Some principles about engineering and science would still apply, no matter how advanced they are.
A scientist from 1909 could propably assamble a modern computer (if he has the right parts, of course).
Of course, this IS a huge task - without lots and lots of trial&error, neither or 1909-scientist nor ST-engineers could figure out how to assemble a computer/repair a ST-device.

-Now, the really big leap: Understanding the underlying science and being able to build the technology.
Our 1909 scientist has no chance to build a modern computer. He has no idea about the underlying science, he can not even look how it works. Even if he had, he would not have the neccessary tools.

The ST-situation is simmilar: Without years of studying, they have no chance to build ANY SW-tech.
Some things would be more difficult than others - building a small turbolaser could be managable (it will not be as powerfull as a "real" turbolaser - at least due to sheer lack of power). But building even a small, endothermic hypermatter reactor could take decades, if not longer.


Basically, we have three fields of understanding:
-User field - how to USE it. What a layman does with a computer/car.
-mechanican field - how to repair it. What a mechanican does with a computer/car.
-engineering field - how does it work/how do i build it. What engineers/scienctist do with computers/cars.

ST has a chance to figure out the user and mechanican fields in a few years. The engineering fields will take deacades or longer, depending on the technology they want to understand.

Edit: The comparsion modern technology->caveman (or roman, or whatever) is not really fair.
Those people would lack the sheer understanding about science and engineering, and thus had no chance to figure out the mechanican/engineering field in any amount of time. ST has scientific/engineering concepts, and those are not likely to change in any amount of time. The basic rules of, say, mathematics are the same as they were 200 years ago.

[Stark]

Grow up. There's a difference between 'know all of physics' and 'unable to develop anything'. Does anyone have to list the giant amount of absurd robots and forcefields and superweapons and one-shot nonsense that has been developed and used just in the 70-80 year period of the novels? Turns out SW has a rapid pace of TECHNOLOGICAL development!

I know this is a retarded rehash of the LOL REVERSE ENGINEER boondoggle, but it's also incredibly ignorant. The idea that being able to USE a device has any bearing at all on UNDERSTANDING JACK SHIT ABOUT HOW IT WORKS is so stupid it makes me want to shave my head and write 'holy fuck' on it.

[Serafina]

I think i made it pretty clear that there IS a difference betwenn "how to use it" and "understanding it".

I difer between those three, because i want to answer the question "what if ST had access to SW-tech somehow?".
And, as i already said, they could propably use some of it, but have next to no chance to understand it in any reasonable amount of time.

Oh, and i am just saying that the "25.000 years" figure is misleading.
SW HAD technological (and scientific) development during this time - just not as much as one could assume.
They used turbolasers 10.000 years ago, the basic principle did not change.
There is not that much difference between a car engine now and 50 years ago, even if those today are twice (or whatever) as powerfull - they are still using the same principles.

[Stark]

Yeah and knowing how to use it is going to be fuck-off useless since they can't built it, maintain it, understand it's subtleties, write detailed documentation or develop countermeasures without ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDING IT. Of course anyone can pick up a blaster or a droid and use it; this doesn't mean shit.

Your retarded red herring about the significant of a number is irrelevant. Turns out scientific development isn't a constant? WHO FUCKING KNEW? This in no way gives the Federation dick or shit chance to understand Imperial technology (with the exception of possibly similar technologies, which certainly exist).

[Serafina]

Yeah and knowing how to use it is going to be fuck-off useless since they can't built it, maintain it, understand it's subtleties, write detailed documentation or develop countermeasures without ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDING IT. Of course anyone can pick up a blaster or a droid and use it; this doesn't mean shit.

Your retarded red herring about the significant of a number is irrelevant. Turns out scientific development isn't a constant? WHO FUCKING KNEW? This in no way gives the Federation dick or shit chance to understand Imperial technology (with the exception of possibly similar technologies, which certainly exist).

True that.

But it IS Star Trek - they will just put any new technology on their best ship and use it
Of course, this will not work long - just look at Voyager and the Borg-quantum slipstream.
As soon as the reactor has any kind of malfunction, they can not do anything to repair it and will have to eject it.
Would make for a nice TNG-episode.

And yes, pointing out the development-error does qualify as a red herring. But i did not try to claim any creditility from it, i just thought it was interesting to point it out.

[Stark]

Uh, what? The Borg tech is almost the same as theirs and they understood reasonably well the underlying principles; it failed because of the limitations of their ship, not a lack of understanding. They would have NO FUCKING IDEA how a hyperdrive worked and no access to the required power or computer control systems. It's totally different. They couldn't even plug it in or control it to within the appropriate tolerances.

[Serafina]

I already said that tools are an obstacle. IIRC (i saw this particular episode once, years ago) they failed because they could not build the engine with enough precision.

Besides, this was not the only time where they put completly new, untested technology on a full-fledged warship just to TEST is (Voyager was at least justified, there were no other ships avaiable for testing).
So you can just replace the quantum slipstream engine with something else.

[Stark]

Stop saying 'I already said...' to excuse the fact that you keep making absurdly broken statements. The use of quantum slipstream by Voyager was in no way comparable to adopting Imperial technology. THEY HAD A FUCKING BORG ON STAFF FOR FUCK'S SAKE. And no, they failed because the ship wasn't strong enough and they risked destroying it. Whoops, turns out propulsion is more complex than 'get professional to strap on and press go'?

I'm not doing your fucking reserach for you. If there are more examples of them adopting totally unknown technology and understanding it in a short time, please demonstrate. Remember, almost all ST tech is so related almost nothing used by anyone is outside the understanding of the other major factions, something totally inapplicable to SW technology and science. It's arguable if they'd even know what hypermatter -IS-, let alone understand a hypermatter powerplant.

[Connor MacLeod]

actually SW makes alot of use of subspacec sensors and communications. I will note however that just becasue the word "subspace" is used doesnt neccesarily mean its the same tech as what ST uses. Names are irrelevant its the traits and capabilities that matter.

And really, nitpicking aside, doesnt all this discussion boil down ot the Feddies "reverse engineering" GE tech in some form or another? That's been discussed inifinte times already.

[Littlefoot]

If you took a modern Aircraft carrier and sent it back in time to December 7th 1941, with a full compliment of weapons and Crew (Sorry I could not resist the Final Countdown reference). According to you the US would be turning out Jet aircraft and missiles with in a year. When the technology to STUDY the “microchip” that runs so many of the modern systems has not been invented. In reality it would take at least 10 years before that could happen there is just too many things to build from scratch, even with all the help of the crew trained in using and repairing the Tech. And that is just 60 year difference in Technology, but I guess 1000s of years and dozens of years are all about the same.

Actually, Yes, the U.S. would be producing Jets in a year. They wouldn't be F-15's or Harriers, but they would be Jets. Bastardized and useable is still usable. Now I take issue with the Feds being equated to Cavemen in this. They may be weak and moraly bankrupt, BUT they are smart. If you take an engineer right out of the S.F. Accademy and send him to a High School in the Empire, Or to one run by Kuat, then send him to a University, he would be able to learn the tech and understand it just as well as an Imperial citizen in the same class. It may follow that the tech is compleatly incompatable, but the understanding would still be there.

[Vehrec]

I do not think that the claim "25.000 year technology gap" is true.

Xim the Despot is the last recorded user of "subspace" technology. Xim was defeated before the Republic was formed 25,000 years ago. The gap does exist.

But hasn't Star Wars tech been largely stagnant for most of that time?

Stagnant =/= no progress. It's been a slow progress to be sure, but things like Blasters, hyperdrives and power sources have gotten smaller, more efficient and overall more deadly. Take Blasters. What Han Solo's pistol can do required a heavy weapon and heavier power supply that totaled a whopping 45 kilograms, produced a lot of excess heat and had an effective range of only 50 meters! Single-seat hypserspace fighters are another example given that until the Clone wars they remained a practical impossibility.

[Wyrm]

Actually, Yes, the U.S. would be producing Jets in a year. They wouldn't be F-15's or Harriers, but they would be Jets. Bastardized and useable is still usable.

This would be more due to the fact that the 1941 US was on the cusp of creating a jet plane anyway.

Now I take issue with the Feds being equated to Cavemen in this. They may be weak and moraly bankrupt, BUT they are smart. If you take an engineer right out of the S.F. Accademy and send him to a High School in the Empire, Or to one run by Kuat, then send him to a University, he would be able to learn the tech and understand it just as well as an Imperial citizen in the same class. It may follow that the tech is compleatly incompatable, but the understanding would still be there.

Irrelevant. A university education in a subject is worlds different than reverse engineering. In a university education, the principles are already understood and the technology already developed; the only thing the student has to master is those principles and the state of the current art. In reverse engineering, you're trying to figure out those principles in the first place. The latter goes much slower, and really only works when you already do know the basic principles of the tech's operation.

Your scenario assumes that a Fed citizen has access to Imperial universities, too. It assumes that the Federation is already a party trusted by the Imperials, not likely in a state of war. It also assumes that the Federation has the infrastructure to support the tech he wishes to use, an unlikely proposition at best.

[Lord Revan]

And really, nitpicking aside, doesnt all this discussion boil down ot the Feddies "reverse engineering" GE tech in some form or another? That's been discussed inifinte times already.

yes it does and that's why I've been banning my head against the wall so hard I made a dent into it with these guys, only difference here is that they claim there feds could adapt SW tech into their ships without knowing anything about the technology itself.

in sense it's kind of funny in a pervert way, that people assume you plug 2 alien technologies together and suspect them to work without knowing the basic operating princebles of 1 (or both) of them.

[Batman]

Ah, but you're ignoring that 1) having access to Wars reactors automatically means you'll have access to the conversion mechanism too, 2) the conversion mechanism will automatically spit out something Trek power grids will be able to work with, and 3) since Han and Chewie can do basic maintenance on the Falcon operating a hypermatter reactor is obviously child's play and requires no training and education whatsoever.

[Darth Wong]

The people who make arguments like this probably think they can "reverse-engineer" computers because they're personally capable of taking one apart and putting it back together. Never mind that they have absolutely no idea how to make any of the component parts; they just pick up replacement parts from a computer store and plug them into ready-made sockets, all of which were designed to be compatible from the ground up.

I'd like to see one of these clowns take a PCIe video card and "modify" it to work in an AGP slot, since reverse engineering is apparently child's play for anyone who's capable of doing maintenance, and they're really incredibly similar compared to the difficulties you might run into when dealing with completely alien technology.

[Surlethe]

Not only is there no technological infrastructure in place, there's no economic infrastructure. If you dropped a modern computer into 1909 and told them to reverse-engineer it and build more, not only would they have to learn a century's worth of physics (the physics governing semiconductors wasn't even known for another decade or two, let alone solid-state physics on the cutting edge today), they'd have to figure out how to make the parts. Nowadays, we have entire industries dedicated to the production of each part that goes into the production of each part that goes into the production of each part ... of each part in a computer. They have simply no way of replicating that, let alone figuring out each step in the process.

Now think of the problem facing a team of Federation engineers trying to reverse-engineer a hypermatter reactor. Not only does he not have the slightest clue of the underlying physical principles (how is he supposed to know that the bulk of the reactor fuel has an imaginary mass number, for heaven's sake?) governing the machine, it is undoubtedly composed of parts manufactured all across the galaxy and brought together to Kuat. And those parts are themselves composed of parts made still elsewhere in the galaxy. The "production tree" probably iterates dozens of times, and it's probably so complicated that you'd have to be a goddamn Culture Mind to get a good idea of what goes into making them and how they're interrelated.

[Lord Revan]

Is it just me or is this dicussion going in circles with the morons saying "they both have the word 'reactor' in their name, how hard it can be" and us explaining just how hard and the morons repeating the first part (maybe with slightly different wording).

I think Batman(in his own way) and Mike really hit the nail in the head, the people are insisting that it's as easy to reverse-engineer (and don't argue since that's what this is all about in the end) alien tech never desinied to be compatable with your hardware and you know next to nothing about and replacing some "plug and play" components in your PC (made both easy to replace and compatable).

engineering isn't exactly magic and basic maintence (which was essentially all Han and Chewie did) isn't engineering nor does it give the skills needed to do any major engineering projects.

[Alyeska]

I think its time we let this thread die. If we get another clueless rebuttal on reverse engineering, I will HOS this. Everything that needs to be said has been said, repeatedly. Mike and Batman have detailed the issue in length.

[HolyReaperX01]

this is what i have to say. if the federation had a few years or maybe a decade or two[or 100+...who knows] they could plausible use a large reactor in a new ship built around it. even if it meant just increasing the size and therefore power usage to be 50 times and using more effiecient tech based on the reactors. But if they only had a year then i would have a total brain spasm and come up with an idea like designing a new ship that pretty much intertwines with the unaltered fed ship making it 2 ships in one. like a symbiosis but with ships. just an idea.

[Batman]

This was supposed to confer which information, exactly?

[rhoenix]

this is what i have to say. if the federation had a few years or maybe a decade or two[or 100+...who knows] they could plausible use a large reactor in a new ship built around it. even if it meant just increasing the size and therefore power usage to be 50 times and using more effiecient tech based on the reactors. But if they only had a year then i would have a total brain spasm and come up with an idea like designing a new ship that pretty much intertwines with the unaltered fed ship making it 2 ships in one. like a symbiosis but with ships. just an idea.

...Not to sound insulting or snide, but your points were covered earlier in this thread.

[HolyReaperX01]

i didn't read through the whole tread i read the first two pages then skiped to the end.....got tired of reading...