trackball wrote:The magic bullet is usually not the CGT. Also CGT is said to be WITH experienced handler able to detect the a cloaked ship according to the Imperial Sourcebook.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/index.html
Mike Wong's sensors page only mentions CGTs being necessary to detect cloaks.
Why does everyone always use Mike's site as justification for whatever they're trying to spew.
Your conclusion was:
trackball wrote:Conclusion: The only way a Star Destroyer would be able to detect a cloaked Star Trek ship is if it were completely alone and well outside of a star system, the presence of large stellar masses would create a natural sensor jamming.
Since the
Imperial Sourcebook, the
Star Wars Sourcebook the
Dark Tide duology, and
The Last Command all suggest that gravity scans are effective in-system. There's little reason to doubt this other than the fact that Bel Iblis thought that the enormous quantity of Coruscanti traffic and the low-orbit of the relatively small asteroids would make detection difficult. This is known as
nitpicking, and in no way supports the contention I pasted above from page 1.
trackball wrote:[Furthermore, my searches have turned up a number of references to gravity sensors being used as a crutch in a cloak detection argument. The point people are trying to make is, it doesn't matter how good the Trekkies think their cloaks are, they WILL be defeated by gravity sensors. As an example, I quote Ender in the thread "Latest E-mail":
Finally, the Romulans have just replaced all of their old but venerable ships with new designs. These ships are a totally new breed of Romulan ships with only one purpose, heavy battle and reconasince (note they use perfect and undetectable cloak fields to do their spying).
If it exists, it has mass. If it has mass, it effects gravity. If it effects gravity, a grav scan will pick it up. Undetectable to the Federation does not mean undetectable to the Imperials.
Despite the fact that this person pulled those Romulan stats out of thin air, the gravity sensors were used to quickly dismiss the possibility. I'm not saying Romulan cloaks are that good, I'm just using this as an example of gravity sensors and gravity sensors alone being used to dismiss it.
Red herring and back-peddling. I also like the tastless irrelevent critique of Ender's debating prowess.
This was your conclusion.
trackball wrote:Conclusion: The only way a Star Destroyer would be able to detect a cloaked Star Trek ship is if it were completely alone and well outside of a star system, the presence of large stellar masses would create a natural sensor jamming.
It has since been shown flawed. Concede.
trackball wrote: So can you give any evidence that somehow that said thing won't since there is little conclusive evidence coming from Last Command?
1) There are no canonical references anywhere to a gravity sensor being used successfully near a large stellar object.
2) There is a canonical reference to cast serious doubt that they can be used reliably near a large stellar object. This means that they were NOT designed for that purpose, but rather designed to be used in deep space.
Classic bullshit and "prove me wrong" demands.
In the
New Jedi Order, grav scans were expected to pick up all but the smallest Yuuzhan Vong vessels, in-system.
In
The Last Command, it was believed possible to detect passive asteroids in low-orbit around Coruscant, a planet with huge amounts of traffic and a larger-than-normal planet. Bel Iblis did believe that Coruscant's gravity might swamp the readings, but it is larger than the average terrestrial world, and hardly supports the assertion that they could not be used in-system, when 99% of all combat and sublight starship operations occur in a stellar system.
Both the
Star Wars Sourcebook and
Imperial Sourcebook both depict the Crystal Graviton Trap as an effective method of detecting cloaked vessels, particularly with trained and experienced operators in-system, which should be obvious anyway, since virtually no space combat takes place alone in interstellar space.
trackball wrote: And any planet will have hundreds of (up to) small city sized objects floating (though that's not exactly the right word) in the sky?
These structures, as seen in Attack of the Clones, are clearly within the lower atmosphere, and would be essentially indistinguishable from surface structures when viewed from orbit. Mention was made in The Last Command that the large structures in orbit were destroyed by Thrawn when he was dropping the asteroids into orbit. Anything in orbit that Thrawn missed would doubtlessly have been eventually crushed by said asteroids, as that was their purpose.
Quotes. And prove that skyhooks could be observed in AoTC and that you viewed enough sky under the right conditions to prove virtually none existed.
trackball wrote:There is no reason to believe Coruscant was a special case, and even it was, that is admitting that gravity sensors cannot perfectly filter out sensor noise, which is the cornerstone of my argument in the first place.
Low-orbit asteroids are not the same thing as cloaked vessels which, in the case of Trek, possess massive space-time distorting devices (impulse and warp engines) and gravoactive sources like artificial gravity and tractor beams and are likely composed of high-mass exotic matter. IN the case of Romulan Warbirds, you have the quantum singularity warp cores.
Besides you're back-peddling. This was your conclusion:
trackball wrote:Conclusion: The only way a Star Destroyer would be able to detect a cloaked Star Trek ship is if it were completely alone and well outside of a star system, the presence of large stellar masses would create a natural sensor jamming.
CGTs with proper support and operators are effective at detecting cloaked vessels in-system. The only piece of doubt is opinion regarding asteroids in low-orbit around a larger-than-average terrestrial world. Starships are high-mass objects containing many gravoactive components, which, in most cases will be higher orbits around more typical terrestrial worlds with far less traffic.
Your conclusion was a CGT-equipped SD could only detect a cloaked ship is alone with it alone in interstellar space. You're wrong. Concede. Do not spin new conclusions and back-peddle. It is a dishonest tactic.
trackball wrote:Until I see some convincing evidence to the contrary, I stand by my conviction that a gravity sensor cannot be used with any degree of reliability near a large stellar object.
However, I am quite willing to admit that they would work great out in deep space, away from large sources of gravity. I also admit that there are other ways to detect a Star Trek cloak. I am simply challenging this ONE singular method.
The only evidence in your favor was that a General thought that asteroids in very low-orbit around a more-massive than typical terrestrial world with extremely dense traffic.
CGTs don't seem to have problems in-system otherwise.
No more red herrings, back-peddling, or inventing new conclusions to distract attention from your fallacious original result. Concession, please.
