Yuuzhun Vong vs. Star Trek

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Wasn't Vader's plan at the Battle of Hoth to drop out of hyperspace and destroy the base's reactor with a precision strike from outside of the system? And Ozzel fucked it up by dropping out close enough to be detected, so they had to do it the hard way. I'd say that implies light-hour ranges, at least against targets that can't dodge.

[lordofchange13]

theres no contest the vong could take out star wars ship they will crush star trek and the borg with both arms behind there back. even with only 3 clusters they rule with in 2 years that is if hyperspace still works.

[BLACKSUN2000]

Hand phasers would have no trouble penetrating Yuuzhan'Vong warrior's armor.

I remember the Vong armor having some sort of funky bio-energy field that protected it's wearer, even from lightsabres.

Either way Picard is a bald faced idiot.

http://picard578.blogspot.com/

BEHOLD his blog.

[DudeGuyMan]

A vintage ten-years-ago Versus Trekkie. I didn't know they still made these.

TDIC and everything!

[chitoryu12]

Wasn't Vader's plan at the Battle of Hoth to drop out of hyperspace and destroy the base's reactor with a precision strike from outside of the system? And Ozzel fucked it up by dropping out close enough to be detected, so they had to do it the hard way. I'd say that implies light-hour ranges, at least against targets that can't dodge.

I thought the plan for a ground operation was to go ahead as planned and dropping in outside the system was just for a stealthy entrance, and Ozzel coming out of hyperspace too close just allowed the Rebels to detect them easier and raise the shield? It's a lot easier to spot a ship suddenly dropping into realspace at close range than them creeping up on you at relatively low speed.

[chitoryu12]

Ghetto edit: I went onto Wookiepedia and apparently the meteor activity in the system was one of the reasons a stealthy approach would work.

[SeaTrooper]

Hand phasers would have no trouble penetrating Yuuzhan'Vong warrior's armor.

I remember the Vong armor having some sort of funky bio-energy field that protected it's wearer, even from lightsabres.

Either way Picard is a bald faced idiot.

http://picard578.blogspot.com/

BEHOLD his blog.

Yes, a very deceptively placed claim, which he snuck into a far larger post and then immediately moved on from without any evidence being provided. Nonetheless, the point that Phaser's NDF effect may have a superior result against Vong bio-armour was raised shortly after, and this could be what that weasel meant. Ignore any inherent energy-field shielding, and the organic makeup of the armour would tend to suggest that it is highly vulnerable to phaser-fire.

Indeed, I suspect this is a point he should have concentrated on, having the best chance of being supportable, rather than the trek-wank apparently developed in isolation on his website.

[Kythnos]

Not to rez this topic but I noticed some interesting points about "The Die is Cast" and I am wondering if anyone else noticed them? (following quote are from DITL so I do not know if they are correct)

Tain :
'Our plan is to wait until we've entered orbit of the Founder's planet, then decloak and begin massive bombardment.'
Lovok : 'Computer analysis indicates that the planet's crust will be destroyed within one hour and the mantle within five.'

On arrival at the planet the fleet launches a bombardment lasting some few seconds. We see the impacts of the weapons on the surface, resulting in shock waves which travel over a significant section of the planet's surface. The following dialogue accompanies the attack :

Tain :
'So much for the Dominion. Open fire!'
Woman : 'The first barrage is complete.'
Tain : 'Effect?'
Woman : 'Thirty percent of the planetary crust destroyed in opening volley. No change in life form readings.'
Tain : 'What? That's impossible. Some of them had to be killed!'
Woman : 'Our sensor readings have been confirmed by three other warbirds. There's no change in the number of life signs on the surface!'
Garak : 'They're using an automated transponder to send back false sensor readings. The planet's deserted!'

There is either a massive "time dilation" in that what seems to be a few seconds to the watcher is in reality closer to 20 min. Because Lovok stated it would take one hour to "destroy" the crust not the seconds we see used to destroy 1/3 of it in the episode. Or absolute proof that their sensors where completely distorted by the enemy there by rendering moot the entire concept. As damage they were expecting might have only been possible if the planet lacked any heavy elements in the crust and mantle as their falsified sensors where showing. (not sure if that point has been brought up before, I know that the episode has been beaten to death, so sorry if that is an old report.)

[Stofsk]

I don't think you can conclude there was a massive time dilation effect. I interpret that second scene to mean both reports were unreliable due to getting false sensor returns. The time dilation theory depends on the Jem'hadar fleet staying in the nebula for 20 mins while the Romulan/Cardassian fleet bombards the planet. It doesn't make any sense. Also if Lovok had said it would take an hour to destroy the crust then I don't see how it's at all reasonable to conclude it takes about a minute to destroy a third of it. If you can do 30% of your mission in 1/60th the time, why should it take a whole hour? Loading torpedo bays shouldn't take that long, nor should recharging phasers/disruptors especially when you don't have to worry about powering your engines for manoeuvres nor your shields - nor did the initial bombardment even last a minute, it was mere seconds.

[Azron_Stoma]

Nor did we see even close to 30% of the crust be destroyed, maybe the target area, but not the entire crust.

[Kythnos]

Nor did we see even close to 30% of the crust be destroyed, maybe the target area, but not the entire crust.

Are you trying to tell me that 1/3 of the planet being reduced to cooling magma would make a visible effect on the planet. I think you might be exaggerating just a bit don't you.

[SeaTrooper]

Nor did we see even close to 30% of the crust be destroyed, maybe the target area, but not the entire crust.

Are you trying to tell me that 1/3 of the planet being reduced to cooling magma would make a visible effect on the planet. I think you might be exaggerating just a bit don't you.

If it was heated enough to become magma, surely it should have been bright enough to see at all. To get rock hot enough to melt (hence: magma), I'd expect to have seen a reasonably bright orange (lower temps) or red (higher) glow coming through the atmosphere. We certainly saw what were probably meant to be atmospheric shock waves, but other than flashes, nothing that really looked as though the surface was gaining excessive thermal energy.

[Azron_Stoma]

Pretty sure Kythnos was being Sarcastic, hence the rolling eyes.

[Azron_Stoma]

Doesn't matter, if 30% of the crust was destroyed, regardless of how, we would have seen the mantle. We didn't, therefore the dialogue was wrong.

[SeaTrooper]

Pretty sure Kythnos was being Sarcastic, hence the rolling eyes.

Yep, sorry. My fault

[Azron_Stoma]

No, you wouldn't. Peel away two of three layers (1/3 done over 1/2 of the planet) and there's still a third layer before you get through it.

Even if it was exposed, the atmosphere may have still covered it up.

So you're suggesting that the 1/3rd of the crust was the outer layers of said crust, like of it's cross section rather than say, more than half a hemisphere blown away?

Sorry but we don't see that kind of widespread effect, and the atmospheric interference is practically non-existent for the level of damage we should be seeing regardless of how you interpret the 30%, be it depth of the crust, or area. We can clearly see the surface and what's happening to it, only a very tiny fraction is anywhere near obscured and it's not even a 1/3rd of 1/4th of the surface.

[Junghalli]

What would exposed mantle look like anyway?

Isn't the mantle actually solid, and only acts like a liquid over very large scales and time spans, and the stuff that comes out of volcanoes becomes liquid as it rises and the pressure decreases? That's what I remember from skimming geology sites and books (on Google Books) while researching it for my own sci fi. If that's so, it wouldn't necessarily be the cliche magma ocean that people may be thinking of. Then again, the crust being removed would presumably reduce the pressure on it and might cause local melting at the top, and I imagine it would probably be hot so it might glow anyway.

Another thought: in TDiC they try to destroy the Founder HQ planet, right (I think I actually saw the ep but it's been a long time)? And isn't it supposed to be in interstellar space or something funky like that? If so, it probably isn't a naturally habitable world, and might not have Earthlike geology.

[Azron_Stoma]

And? that proves nothing, we do not see widespread destruction, for one thing that shot shows only about a quarter of the planet's surface at best, the shock-waves do not obscure anything except for maybe an area the size of that plasma torpedo.

"The Die Is Cast" Bombardment is no evidence of obscene trek firepower, accept it.

[Stofsk]

Just how much destruction do you expect to see in ~5 seconds, because that's how long the episode stays on the viewscreen shot.

What about Lovok in the first scene where he says the plan is to bombard the planet for an hour which would be enough time to destroy the crust? Pretty strange how no-one pipes up and goes 'lol don't you know that our weapons suck lovok, we couldn't peel the paint off a dilapidated barnyard in an hour let alone destroy a planet's crust'.

The problem with TDiC is that the sensor readings were being fooled - which I pointed out above, brings doubt to the second scene but doesn't invalidate the first.

[Picard]

Hand phasers would have no trouble penetrating Yuuzhan'Vong warrior's armor.

I remember the Vong armor having some sort of funky bio-energy field that protected it's wearer, even from lightsabres.

Either way Picard is a bald faced idiot.

http://picard578.blogspot.com/

BEHOLD his blog.

Yes, a very deceptively placed claim, which he snuck into a far larger post and then immediately moved on from without any evidence being provided. Nonetheless, the point that Phaser's NDF effect may have a superior result against Vong bio-armour was raised shortly after, and this could be what that weasel meant. Ignore any inherent energy-field shielding, and the organic makeup of the armour would tend to suggest that it is highly vulnerable to phaser-fire.

Indeed, I suspect this is a point he should have concentrated on, having the best chance of being supportable, rather than the trek-wank apparently developed in isolation on his website.

Except that ORGANIC materials are shown to be highly suspectable to NDF, and that phaser was shown t be able to heat rocks enough to glow, which is not NDF, which means that phasers would be highly effective against both armor and shields of Vong warriors.

[Serafina]

Except that ORGANIC materials are shown to be highly suspectable to NDF, and that phaser was shown t be able to heat rocks enough to glow, which is not NDF, which means that phasers would be highly effective against both armor and shields of Vong warriors.

*yawn* Except that organic materials are ONLY so suspectible to phasers because they have a very low density (phaser-firepower is clearly density-related).
Vong-biomaterials are capable of withstanding lightsabers - given that those can cut trough half a metre of high-density armor material (see TPM), that's quite a feat. To achieve this, you have two options (which can be combined):
-their biomaterials are incredibly dense/heat resistant. That can not explain the resilience we see on it's own - such enormous densities are simply impossible since that stuff doesn't weight tons per cubic centimetre or the like.
-they have biological forcefields. Seen in canon, easily explains the resilience.

Now, it's pretty clear that you are a moron who thinks something like "they are good against biological stuff, so they must be good against all biological stuff" - regardless of it's properties. You think in term of "powers" - it can do X, and that's it. That's a pretty childish way to think - it's better to think in terms of capabilities - it emmits that much heat/force/etc., which will do X to this material because that material has these specific properties A, B and C.
If you had done that, you would have seen that phasers are good against low-density materials and therefore good against organics - not just "good against everything organic".

That rambling aside, here is something for your kiddie-brain: We see what phasers do to organic beings with biogical forcefields in ST-canon. Did phasers harm Species 8472? No? Then why do you think they will harm the Yuuzhan Vong?

[Picard]

NDF - for armor
DET - for shields

[Serafina]

And? that proves nothing, we do not see widespread destruction, for one thing that shot shows only about a quarter of the planet's surface at best, the shock-waves do not obscure anything except for maybe an area the size of that plasma torpedo.

So, what are the rings?

I see only two options, and in both of them, you lose.

They could be the surface being disintegrated by phaser magic. The dialog and visuals agree. The dialog stands.

Or they could be the atmosphere getting waves due to the bombardment. The visuals fail to contradict the dialog, therefore by canon literalism, the dialog stands.


So we are either seeing the widespread destruction directly, or we're seeing the thick atmosphere that would block our view of the surface anyway.

What are they?

Or, since such widespread destruction is inconsistent with the rest of Trek (orbital bombardment is never a serious threat, it's never taken into consideration when important planets have to be defended, it's inconsistent with the rest of their firepower), we have some further options:
-The visuals represent their fooled sensors - it would make little sensors to fake the readings while looking out of the window tells a different story. Consistent with the dialogue and plot of that episode.
-The planet has a special surface that is particularly susceptible to such a bombardment.

Both options explain why the phaser bombardment looks so strange and is consistent with the rest of Trek and the episode. IF they could actually take out a whole planet within less than an hour (or just the important parts of it), why do we never see that anywhere else? Why is no one concerned about a quick, small raid taking out Earth/Vulcan/some other planet? Or some lone planet being worried over being taken out so quickly? Why do we never see the firepower that would be required for this anywhere else? What about the Borg spheres pathetic bombardment (a single modern aircraft would have done better) in First Contact? And so on.
TDIC is an outlier, it doesn't fit in with anything else. Therefore, assuming "special circumstances" is the sensible thing to do - especially since they fit in with the plot of the episode itself!

[Serafina]

NDF - for armor
DET - for shields

You are still assuming that NDF is ONLY optional. You have not presented a scratch of evidence for this assumption.

But yes, our moron actually has a point - NDF has no effect against shields, so the phasers have to rely on their pathetic DET-component to penetrate those bio-shields. Given that those can stand up to blasters (who carry much more DET), they will most likely do next to nothing.
Of course, he ignores the possibility that Vong-armor actually DOES have a high density (a logical attribute for armor) and would therefore NOT be highly vulnerable to a NDF-reaction. He still doesn't grasp that NDF is not "good against biological stuff", but rather "good against low-density stuff", which happens to include most biological stuff - but not necessarily all of it.

So yes - another pointless one-liner, neither backed up by evidence nor brain.

[Picard]

Except that ORGANIC materials are shown to be highly suspectable to NDF, and that phaser was shown t be able to heat rocks enough to glow, which is not NDF, which means that phasers would be highly effective against both armor and shields of Vong warriors.

*yawn* Except that organic materials are ONLY so suspectible to phasers because they have a very low density (phaser-firepower is clearly density-related).
Vong-biomaterials are capable of withstanding lightsabers - given that those can cut trough half a metre of high-density armor material (see TPM), that's quite a feat. To achieve this, you have two options (which can be combined):
-their biomaterials are incredibly dense/heat resistant. That can not explain the resilience we see on it's own - such enormous densities are simply impossible since that stuff doesn't weight tons per cubic centimetre or the like.
-they have biological forcefields. Seen in canon, easily explains the resilience.

Now, it's pretty clear that you are a moron who thinks something like "they are good against biological stuff, so they must be good against all biological stuff" - regardless of it's properties. You think in term of "powers" - it can do X, and that's it. That's a pretty childish way to think - it's better to think in terms of capabilities - it emmits that much heat/force/etc., which will do X to this material because that material has these specific properties A, B and C.
If you had done that, you would have seen that phasers are good against low-density materials and therefore good against organics - not just "good against everything organic".

That rambling aside, here is something for your kiddie-brain: We see what phasers do to organic beings with biogical forcefields in ST-canon. Did phasers harm Species 8472? No? Then why do you think they will harm the Yuuzhan Vong?

And are Vong comparable to spieces 8472? Plus I do not remember any member of 8472 being fired upon by phaser. Only their ships fired on by Borg disruptors.

You are still assuming that NDF is ONLY optional. You have not presented a scratch of evidence for this assumption.

Oh, there is plenty evidence - different settings, different effects etc. There are 16 "settings" with 16 vastly different effects - which means that these are not just 16 different power levels.

But yes, our moron actually has a point - NDF has no effect against shields, so the phasers have to rely on their pathetic DET-component to penetrate those bio-shields. Given that those can stand up to blasters (who carry much more DET), they will most likely do next to nothing.

Blasters carry LESS DET than phasers by order of magnitude. I do not remember blasters heating stones to glow.