Fundamental differences

[Lord Revan]

Agreed, although I think it is more simply that these kind of people for whatever reason think that life must ultimately be fair. In those games, sure its fair, if you discount skill between players. In this debate, it is not.

I'm not so sure they think life must always be fair, but they certainly seem to think that fiction should be. As far as they're concerned, since both entities are fictional, they should observe computer game convention rather than any kind of logic. But they're forgetting that this is built into the way the question is asked.

If we ask "according to computer game convention, would Star Wars clobber Star Trek", his answer would be correct: they would probably wind up being about equal, because that's what computer game designers do. The players demand it.

However, that's not what we're asking. We're asking "what would realistically happen", which implies that the rules of this engagement will be drawn from reality, not computer game cliches.

it's kind of odd why would anyone want to debate from video game conventions since IMHO the debate would be dead before it started due games being always balanced when there's more then 1 playble faction as being an enjoyble game comes before being a realistic one.

[Peptuck]

Agreed, although I think it is more simply that these kind of people for whatever reason think that life must ultimately be fair. In those games, sure its fair, if you discount skill between players. In this debate, it is not.

I'm not so sure they think life must always be fair, but they certainly seem to think that fiction should be. As far as they're concerned, since both entities are fictional, they should observe computer game convention rather than any kind of logic. But they're forgetting that this is built into the way the question is asked.

If we ask "according to computer game convention, would Star Wars clobber Star Trek", his answer would be correct: they would probably wind up being about equal, because that's what computer game designers do. The players demand it.

However, that's not what we're asking. We're asking "what would realistically happen", which implies that the rules of this engagement will be drawn from reality, not computer game cliches.

it's kind of odd why would anyone want to debate from video game conventions since IMHO the debate would be dead before it started due games being always balanced when there's more then 1 playble faction as being an enjoyble game comes before being a realistic one.

Its obvious, isn't it?

He's trying to force a degree of parity on the situation, because he knows that in anything resembling a realistic scenario, the Feddies lose. Horribly and completely. So instead he tries to come up with all these excuses and this idea of fairness and parity to try to give the Federation a chance.

Its blatantly and completely artificial. but then, that should have been apparent from the very first paragraph, where he said

Let me start by saying I agree the Federation would never be able to defeat the Empire. And Star Wars is a heck of a lot cooler then Star Trek.

That kind of a lead-in is almost always going to follow up into some type of argument to shoot down the prevailing opinion/conclusion.

[Darth Onasi]

Which begs the question, why does it have to be Star Trek?
There are tons of sci-fi universes out there that are the equal of Star Wars or could hand the Empire it's ass they could debate to their heart's content.

[Batman]

Which begs the question, why does it have to be Star Trek?
There are tons of sci-fi universes out there that are the equal of Star Wars or could hand the Empire it's ass they could debate to their heart's content.

Exposure. Sure, the Culture can eat the Empire for breakfast, but how many people have actually read the books? Likewise, if there were any Time Lords left they'd laugh at Wars' best efforts, but again, how well known is Dr Who, even AMONG those who technically know it?
Whereas just about EVERYBODY knows Star Trek.

[Darth Wong]

Which begs the question, why does it have to be Star Trek?

Because these people are rabid Trekkies with a massive inferiority complex. It's really not more complicated than that.

There are tons of sci-fi universes out there that are the equal of Star Wars or could hand the Empire it's ass they could debate to their heart's content.

Right, and that's why you don't see Timelord wankers coming in here to make absurd false claims about Star Wars. They don't have an inferiority complex, so they wouldn't start something unless we started it by acting like Trektards and claiming that SW could kick Timelord ass.

[NecronLord]

Likewise, if there were any Time Lords left they'd laugh at Wars' best efforts, but again, how well known is Dr Who, even AMONG those who technically know it?

Depends. Not much, internationally.

In Britain, you're practically living under a rock if you've not seen at least some of the new series in the last couple of years. It occupies a major drama slot on Chirstmas day (last year it was the 2nd most-watched thing on that day, with figures of 13.8 million) on the most popular channel, for instance.

Of course, a good portion of the fans are kids (it is a family show after all) as opposed to die-hard adult fans like Trek. And the actual die-hard adult fans have nothing to prove in the wank stakes, as Mike says.

[Batman]

Internationally was what I was getting at. I know for brits knowledge of Doctor Who is practically genetically encoded

[Kythnos]

I agree the Enterprise is no match at all for a Star Destroyer....because the ISD is larger, armored, and bristling with huge guns vs the relatively unarmed fragile politically correct exploration vehicles Starfleet calls warships...not because of lame assumptions the Enterprise tech is so much weaker it could fire forever and never penetrate the shields.

But that is part of the point everyone is getting at the Federation does not make warships (in general). Nor have their weapons tech advanced much in the 100 years from TOS to NextGen, it could very well be because they are not at war for most of that time and at times of war weapons tech advances faster than normal. Each ship is designed for a purpose, ISD’s are warship build to destroy the enemy but the Federation builds “Coast Guard cutters” they need to do a lot of things. The Shields of a ISD are made to take what it can dishout as are FedShips, there is just an incredible different between the two (as per both cannons not personal opinion).

The Hutts ruled it and there is no evidence that changed.

Yes I believe the Hutt’s Rule Tatooine. The way a Governor’s Ruled would rule a districts in the Roman empire as long as they obeyed Caesar they could do anything they wanted. Or a more appropriate example might be the way Al Capone Ruled over the south side of Chicago in the early 1930’s. They have vast power/influence over the Planet but the Empire still rules over them.

Obi Wan specifically complained about the seperatists ability to rebuild ships and armies despite thier battle losses. In other words, despite battle victory, the Republic's attacks were totally ineffective at ending the war because they lacked navigational and sensor ability to locate and destoy enemy bases and infastructure in unknown space. The same thing happened again with the Rebellion. I dont see what you think is different between the Republic/Empire in this respect. The empire fails so badly in this, they try to win through sheer terror - The Death Star - and note the admiral doesnt even want to send the Death Star to any remote planet. It is for intimidation and control of the core systems

Again you are misinterpreting the facts, you are right the Republic could not attack the Separatist worlds but not because they did not know where they were. They did not have the man power to do so, the clone took 10 years to grow(if my memory severs), where as the Droids could be mass produced in almost limitless quantities. Remember that the Separatist where from Planets that left the Republic, so they could look up in a database where that planet was. But the Republic could not afford to wasted its troops, it is important to note that before the Clone War started the Republic did not have a large Army or Navy (possibly none at all) hence they could call the first shipment of Clones “the Grand Army of the Republic”. More than likely the Republic was like the UN of today, next to powerless, and force to rely on the armies of its members that it could “borrow” (and the Jedi)

The Rebellion was also a very different type of situation, a galaxy is very large and easy to hide in, as long as you don’t try to “take any world” you can just keep moving and never engage the enemy. I am not sure if you realize just how big our galaxy is, not counting vast empty space between worlds, there are billions of star systems to search. As you said The Empire ruled through Fear and therefore could not just send its entire fleet looking for the rebels, just as it only sent a few ships to endor to trap the rebel fleet.

[Alien-Carrot]

I am not sure if you realize just how big our galaxy is, not counting vast empty space between worlds, there are billions of star systems to search.

And thats not even counting the fact that the wars galaxt is stated to be larger that ours.

Wheras our galaxy is 75-85 thousand lightyears across, the wars galaxy is stated to be 120 thousand across. with my limited math skills, this seems to be about 4 TIMES THE VOLUME. (could someone please check that, i dont know the formula for area of a circle)

[Formless]

formula for area of a circle

One-half Pi times the radius of the circle squared. Basic geometry.

[Terralthra]

formula for area of a circle

One-half Pi times the radius of the circle squared. Basic geometry.

What is 1/2 doing in there? A = pi*r^2.

[Formless]

formula for area of a circle

One-half Pi times the radius of the circle squared. Basic geometry.

What is 1/2 doing in there? A = pi*r^2.

I have no idea why I put 1/2 in there. I'd call the error on account of the time of day + the fact I haven't used it for a while now. My mistake.

[Alien-Carrot]

pi r squared cant beleive i didnt remember that.

trek galaxy area = 18,262,500,000 square light years.

was galaxy area = 46,246,000,000 square light years.

i was wrong, its only 3 TIMES THE AREA.


and these are the minimum numbers.

(note: i did all this math on paper. if i made a mistake, please tell me.)

No it is the rebellion that claims to know where the imperial fleet is (incorrectly). The empire clearly had no idea where the rebel fleet was and so the Emperor specifically said he set a trap to get them to come to Endor. The continued existence of ANY rebel fleet and bases by the time of the Return of the Jedi, let alone the fact that it was strong enough to DEFEAT the imperial fleet at Endor even with the Death Star blasting its ships....this all signifies the Imperial missions across the galaxy to explore, track down and wipe out the rebellion were utter and complete failures. There is no evidence the empire (or republic) was ever good at recon, navigation, exploration or long distance projection of power. Those in fact, are specifically its weaknesses as it used most of its power to patrol and control its own systems.

we have sattelits in space that can see a planet 80 light years away or see a dime laying on the ground, but we still havnt mapped the ocean floor. to us its a vast area that would be a WASTE O TIME to map in its entirety. the fact that the empire hasnt mapped every comet and dust particle in an entire galaxy, doesnt mean it doesnt have the tech to do so, just that it doesnt feel the need to.

And the emperor specifically said he knew the rebel ships were gathering for an attack, or did you forget the whole cioncept of the movie. to quote Ackbar IT'S A TRAP.

Umm, The Dominion had a genetically enginereed soldier race with all kinds of goodies including personal cloaking devices, shield ignoring weapons and damping fields which rendered federation technology useless

genetically engineered to lost to humans in fist fights, be dependant on drugs, and go crazy if they have withdrawal. the personal cloaks werent a technology, it was a psionic ability alled THE SHROUD. the shield ignoring weapons they got from the breen, and the feds adapted to this tech in ONE EPISODE. and the dampening fields thay got form the cardassian, who got it from the maquis, WHO COME FROM THE FUCKING FEDERATION.

A Dominion fleet appearing in earth orbit would have the same effect

really, cause i seem to remember them trying that. Massive breen fleet with dominion backup appears above earth, AND GOT ITS ASS KICKED.

Obi Wan specifically complained about the seperatists ability to rebuild ships and armies despite thier battle losses. In other words, despite battle victory, the Republic's attacks were totally ineffective at ending the war because they lacked navigational and sensor ability to locate and destoy enemy bases and infastructure in unknown space. The same thing happened again with the Rebellion.

1. they knew where every CIS planet was, its called the fucking jedi archives, jiant holomap of the galaxy.

2.navigational and sensor ability hs nothing to do with DESTROYING an enemies infrastructure, just with finding it.

3. the republics attacks were ineffective cuse both sides were controlled by sidious. the whole war was designed to do exactly one thing, set up the jedi to be outlawed and killed. it was never meant to be won by any means other that sidious saying, "execute order 66"


thats all the rant i have for now, too tired to yell at this douchnugget anymore.

[Darth Ruinus]

The continued existence of ANY rebel fleet and bases by the time of the Return of the Jedi, let alone the fact that it was strong enough to DEFEAT the imperial fleet at Endor even with the Death Star blasting its ships....this all signifies the Imperial missions across the galaxy to explore, track down and wipe out the rebellion were utter and complete failures.

The Rebel fleet wasn't strong enough to defeat the Imperial fleet. It was getting its ass kicked by one Imperial Sector fleet. Even without the Death Star Ackbar made it perfectly clear when he said "We won't last long against those Star Destroyers."

There is no evidence the empire (or republic) was ever good at recon

TESB the Rebellion was hiding on one planet, in an entire galaxy, and the Empire found them.

navigation,

Navigation? You mean how they've mapped out hyperspace lanes across the entire galaxy?

exploration

Like, how they've mapped out the entire galaxy?

or long distance projection of power.

Hyperspace allows any ship to travel across the galaxy in a few hours. Imperial ships could be sitting near the Core and arrive at the Midrim or Outer Rim in a few hours. I'd say that's pretty good.

Those in fact, are specifically its weaknesses as it used most of its power to patrol and control its own systems.

I'm not sure the place of areas like Hutt Space or the Corporate Sector, but the Empire controlled the galaxy. It patroled its own systems, which just happened to be all the systems. Or at least the valuable ones IIRC.

[Lord Revan]

Hutt space and the corporate sector maintaned a semi-independence due to following the rules Palpatine (or the imperial goverment in his name) set for them, it's made quite clear that should either of them cross the line set for them they'd have the imperial navy at their backs, so they're not independent but have a strong autonomy (like some parts of China or Russia today), there's also other places like this that are left to develop by themselves as long as they don't cause trouble.

it's always made clear that empire could have patrolled those systems but it wasn't worth the effort so they didn't.

[Aratech]

I am not sure if you realize just how big our galaxy is, not counting vast empty space between worlds, there are billions of star systems to search.

And thats not even counting the fact that the wars galaxt is stated to be larger that ours.

Wheras our galaxy is 75-85 thousand lightyears across, the wars galaxy is stated to be 120 thousand across. with my limited math skills, this seems to be about 4 TIMES THE VOLUME. (could someone please check that, i dont know the formula for area of a circle)

While I'm not sure if you are volumetrically correct, Tales of the Bounty Hunters states that the GFFA has about 400 billion stars within it. That is about 4 times the amount estimated to be within our own.

[Ender]

The Milky Way galaxy is 100,000 lightyears across with estimates between 200 - 400 billion stars. The SW galaxy is not substantially larger than ours.

[harbringer]

The problem with scaling from something like 400 million stars is that your assuming there is an average you can apply ... I cannot believe however given how many major worlds are within the GE that the federation has any parity industry wise. Just building coruscant is a feat beyond anything I can imagine. I don't buy that there are basic differences tech wise apart from star wars represents a "mature" civilisation ie. most of the basic technology has been in use a long time and doesnt change in anything bigger than application.

Military wise the federation are just too reliant on star ships for my taste there is no redundency of capability it is almost gunboat diplomacy in napolenic style. Ok thats because it wasn't ment to be a story about war but thats not the issue, since we assume contact and a conflict of some sort (or there wouldn't be a debate ... well not that there is one). With no way to take the fight to the enemy redshirts are a pointless waste of time. With no fire support I find it hard to believe there would be a prolonged conflict in any case.

Just my 2 cents but I don't think superscale has any truely valid points.

[Kythnos]

A lot of people don’t truly understand the meaning of large numbers, so I thought I would make this post to explain then in terms that just about anyone can grasp.( I have been meaning to do this when I first read the starting post but I am kind of lazy.)

1,000,000,000 (one billion) / 60 sec in a minute =
16,666,666.666666666666666666666667 /60 min in an hour =
277,777.77777777777777777777777778 /24 hours in a day =
11,574.074074074074074074074074074 /365 days in year (yes I know that the real number should be 365.25 but really this is close enough for this example) =
31.709791983764586504312531709792
Rounding down One billion seconds equals 31 years, this is an easy way to truly understand what a billion represents.

The Star Wars Galaxy has 400,000,000,000, four hundred Billion Stars about twice the number of stars that is currently estimated to be in the Milky way Galaxy.
And now for the real magic

If for some reason we assume the Empire has “direct” control or at lease observation of ½ of those systems, the rebel cannot hide in those systems, it still leaves 200,000,000,000 (two hundred billion star systems) to search:

200,000,000,000 / 60 =
3333333333.3333333333333333333333 / 60 =
55555555.555555555555555555555556 / 24 =
2314814.8148148148148148148148148 / 365.25 =
6337.6175628057900474053793697873

So if the Empire put together a fleet of 6500 ship/probots they could search the remaining two hundred billion star systems in just under one year. That is not too bad when you think about it, I am sure that the Empire could easily make that number of Probots. Unless I am forgetting something …. Oh wait did I mention the “Magic Hyperdrive and Sensors” on my fleet that enable them to Scan an entire star system and jump to the next all in One Second (impossible by Star Wars and Star Trek Tech )

A more realistic computation might be:

200,000,000,000 / 24 =
8,333,333,333.3333333333333333333333 / 365.25 =
22,815,423.226100844170659365731234
According to this calculation it would take 22,815,424 probots/ships to search the remaining galaxy in one year if they could perform that function in one hour.
Considering that the travel time to the “next” star system should be less than an hour. Using the westend games books the travel times to different systems is normally listed in many hours of travel time however these probots are not traveling to a “certain” system they are just traveling to the next nearest system, provided it is part of the systems they need to search. That may seem to be pure semantics and double talk, and it is, but it is the difference from traveling to the nearest city from where you live as opposed to traveling to the nearest Population Center, what ever its size, from where you live.

This still leaves very little time to Scan the system but it might be realistically possible to do so. Even that is highly unlikely after all the base you are searching for is trying to “hide” so they are not going to be putting up a big sign or broadcasting their location. Each Large object in the system will have to be searched. Keep in mind this is not like trying to count planets in a system or determine the atmosphere of a planet that can be done from light-years away. It would require an orbit of the object, at least to scan it all, and that could add weeks to the search of each system.

[Batman]

Ever wondered what scientific notation was invented for?

[Alien-Carrot]

The Milky Way galaxy is 100,000 lightyears across with estimates between 200 - 400 billion stars.

sorry i was going on memory. 15 years ago in highschool, they told us 75-85k ly

The SW galaxy is not substantially larger than ours

Going by 100k ly

trek galaxy area = 31,400,000,000 square light years.

was galaxy area = 46,246,000,000 square light years.

so about 1/4 again as large. nope no substantial difference at all

[Batman]

Ahem. For a 100,000ly galaxy A=pi r^2 gets me7,854x10^9 square ly.

[Captain Seafort]

Yep. MW = 7.85E9 ly^2, GFFA = 1.13E10ly^2, so the GFFA has about a 50% greater area.

My guess is that AC used the diameter instead of the radius.

[Ender]

Going by 100k ly

trek galaxy area = 31,400,000,000 square light years.

was galaxy area = 46,246,000,000 square light years.

so about 1/4 again as large. nope no substantial difference at all

No. I have no idea what formula you used to reach this conclusion. I have no idea how you determined that this was a difference of 1/4th. I can only conclude that your abilities are far substandard compared to your ego. Using your numbers thee is a difference of 0.68 or the Milky way would be approximately 2/3rds the size of the Star Wars galaxy. However, owing to the fact that you have no idea what you are doing, your numbers are incorrect.
Using A=pi*r^2

Milky way = 7.85*10^9 ly^2
GFFA = 11.31*10^9 ly^2

For a difference factor of 1.44, putting the Milky was as being 5/7ths the size of the GFFA. I suggest you check your contempt until you master the ability to do 3rd grade mathematics. However, this is still an inaccurate comparison, because as a real object rather than abstract one on a plane you would need to account for the other dimensions and calculate it as something approximating a cylinder, or estimate the size of the galactic halo and treat it as a sphere.

But even this would be inaccurate because a galaxy is nearly all empty space. The actual resources are the star systems, so a better comparison would be their respective masses. With Star Wars having 400 billion and us having a similar number we are at the very least in the same order of magnitude. So no, there is no substantial difference.

[Ender]

Oh, and your volume comparison earlier was absurdly off. For a diameter of 85 Kly vs that of 100 Kly, there is a difference of 2.81, not 4.