Yuuzhun Vong vs. Star Trek

[Ghost Rider]

No, I saw enough to understand that you do not understand basics. And about photon torpedoes, these are not 250 megatons - but rather several gigatons.

In 'A Taste of Armageddon', for example, Kirk is captured whilst on the surface of the planet Eminiar VII. Eminiar is fighting a computer-simulated war with its neighbouring planet, Vendikar. When the computers register a person as a casualty they are expected to report to one of numerous disintegration chambers and immolate themselves. Determined to stop the war, Kirk manages to get a message to Scotty in which he orders him to implement General Order 24. Scotty issues the following ultimatum to the Eminian civilisation :
Scotty : 'All cities and installations on Eminiar VII have been located, identified and fed into our fire control system. In one hour forty five minutes the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.'
This is not the only time the Enterprise is claimed to be capable of this level of devastation. In 'Bread and Circuses', Kirk talks to the leader of a world whose civilisation has paralleled that of Earth, but with one important difference : on this world, the Roman Empire never fell. The leader, Marcus, captured a Federation ship's crew some six years earlier and convinced its commanding officer, Captain R.M. Merrick, to work with him. In a conversation with Kirk, Marcus says :
Marcus : 'From what I understand, your vessel could lay waste to the entire surface of the world.'
Marcus is not himself an expert in Starship capabilities of course, but he has had a ship's captain as his advisor for some six years and so is certain to have a good general idea of the capabilities of the ship.

Hyperbole it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the height of the cold war the nuclear powers of the Earth held arsenals with a total yield well into the thousands of megatons. If the Enterprise at least matches this total with only two hundred or so warheads, then each weapon would have a yield well in excess of ten megatons. Weapons with this kind of yield are well within the capabilities of present day science - indeed, bombs with yields of some 50 megatons were successfully tested several decades ago. Producing such energy with a matter/antimatter charge should be relatively straightforward for 23rd century technology. With the recent advent of photons in the tens of megatons range on Enterprise, set a century before Kirk's time, it seems certain that the weapons in use during the original series were at least this powerful. See later on for more details of the Enterprise weapons.

I see just wild assumptions. If you have something that is data that can be verified, that does help.

It's worth repeating that this represents virtually the minimum yield that photon torpedoes could have and still fit in with the above episode statements. Higher yields are perfectly possible and indeed quite likely if we are to take phrases such as 'lay waste to the surface of the world' at face value. At least one original series episode points to an even greater level of destruction than this; in 'Whom Gods Destroy', Captain Kirk is trapped in a Federation lunatic asylum which has been taken over by one of its inmates, Garth. The whole planet is covered by a planetary shield, and in the following dialogue the crew consider trying to blast through it :
Scotty : 'Mister Sulu. What do your sensors show?'
Sulu : 'We can't beam anybody down sir. The forcefield on the planet is in full operation and all forms of transport into the asylum dome are blocked off. '
Scotty : 'Aye... we could blast our way through the field but only at the risk of destroying the Captain, Mister Spock and any other living thing on Elba II.'
McCoy : 'How can we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet and still be so helpless!'
Somewhat remarkably, this indicates that the surface of the planet would be totally devastated even by the collateral damage of blasting through the planetary shields! This would would presumably be only a small portion of the total attack, indicating a total firepower much greater than a mere few thousand megatons - perhaps even several orders of magnitude greater.

At this point, I guess I should take Vader's taunt of destroying a planet as fact. Good to know.

So, anything? At all? I mean sure, five, even six years ago this would've been amusing. Now? It's a zombie trying to lurch forward.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

No, I saw enough to understand that you do not understand basics. And about photon torpedoes, these are not 250 megatons - but rather several gigatons.

In 'A Taste of Armageddon', for example, Kirk is captured whilst on the surface of the planet Eminiar VII. Eminiar is fighting a computer-simulated war with its neighbouring planet, Vendikar. When the computers register a person as a casualty they are expected to report to one of numerous disintegration chambers and immolate themselves. Determined to stop the war, Kirk manages to get a message to Scotty in which he orders him to implement General Order 24. Scotty issues the following ultimatum to the Eminian civilisation :
Scotty : 'All cities and installations on Eminiar VII have been located, identified and fed into our fire control system. In one hour forty five minutes the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.'

Wow, you're a moron. Demonstrate that "General Order 24" was anything but a bluff.

This is not the only time the Enterprise is claimed to be capable of this level of devastation. In 'Bread and Circuses', Kirk talks to the leader of a world whose civilisation has paralleled that of Earth, but with one important difference : on this world, the Roman Empire never fell. The leader, Marcus, captured a Federation ship's crew some six years earlier and convinced its commanding officer, Captain R.M. Merrick, to work with him. In a conversation with Kirk, Marcus says :
Marcus : 'From what I understand, your vessel could lay waste to the entire surface of the world.'
Marcus is not himself an expert in Starship capabilities of course, but he has had a ship's captain as his advisor for some six years and so is certain to have a good general idea of the capabilities of the ship.

Demonstrate that Captain Merrick wasn't exaggerating when he told the alt-Romans about the capabilities of Federation ships.

At least one original series episode points to an even greater level of destruction than this; in 'Whom Gods Destroy', Captain Kirk is trapped in a Federation lunatic asylum which has been taken over by one of its inmates, Garth. The whole planet is covered by a planetary shield, and in the following dialogue the crew consider trying to blast through it :
Scotty : 'Mister Sulu. What do your sensors show?'
Sulu : 'We can't beam anybody down sir. The forcefield on the planet is in full operation and all forms of transport into the asylum dome are blocked off. '
Scotty : 'Aye... we could blast our way through the field but only at the risk of destroying the Captain, Mister Spock and any other living thing on Elba II.'
McCoy : 'How can we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet and still be so helpless!'
Somewhat remarkably, this indicates that the surface of the planet would be totally devastated even by the collateral damage of blasting through the planetary shields! This would would presumably be only a small portion of the total attack, indicating a total firepower much greater than a mere few thousand megatons - perhaps even several orders of magnitude greater.

Demonstrate that Elba II was meaningfully inhabited outside of the asylum dome.

You're making a bunch of wild assumptions based solely on generous interpretations on things found only in dialogue. As has been said, please back them up by something quantifiable. And then please explain how the E-nil has multiple gigatons of firepower when the presumably more-advanced E-D has been demonstrated through analysis of visual evidence (done years, and years ago,) of barely managing a few megatons (and I'm being generous here)?

[Jake]

Let me have this one guys, I want my first trekkie kill of my posting career!

[Jake]

In 'A Taste of Armageddon', for example, Kirk is captured whilst on the surface of the planet Eminiar VII. Eminiar is fighting a computer-simulated war with its neighbouring planet, Vendikar. When the computers register a person as a casualty they are expected to report to one of numerous disintegration chambers and immolate themselves. Determined to stop the war, Kirk manages to get a message to Scotty in which he orders him to implement General Order 24. Scotty issues the following ultimatum to the Eminian civilisation :
Scotty : 'All cities and installations on Eminiar VII have been located, identified and fed into our fire control system. In one hour forty five minutes the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.'

So what? The ability to destroy the entire inhabited surface can mean anything. For example, from here: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_warfare), the world nuclear arsenal was estimated to be 13,000 megatons. Many theorized that launching these would cause the end of our species. This was debated though, so let’s double that number to 26,000 megatons to be sure of ourselves and give the enterprise that level of firepower. Note that 26,000 megatons = 1.08784E20J. However, any amount of energy doesn’t mean shit unless we have the rate at which it can be delivered, aka power. For this scenario, let’s make the assumption that the enterprise can release all this power in one second, which is bullshit considering how slow they fire their torpedoes, but anyway this would put enterprise firepower at 1.08784E20W. I will assume they use about the same for their shields.

Now, an Acclamator I class transport has a 2E23W reactor and peak 7E22W shields. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Acclamat ... sault_ship) I will assume equal levels of firepower and the rest of the reactor output going to other systems. Now an acclamator has 36 weapon sites, so averaging the reactor power to each we get 1.94E21W per turret. Looking up at the enterprise’s shield capacity, we can see that any hit from the turrets will be a kill. Now, from a New Hope, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASYW3P3t208, from 1:49 to 1:51, a turret at the bottom of the ISD fires twice, meaning each turret can fire about 1shot/sec, which means kill one enterprise/ sec assuming perfect accuracy. With 36 turrets we get 36 kill/sec.

Now, here’s my mathematical prediction for a federation fleet assault on an acclamator. We will assume that a federation fleet of unknown size drops out of warp and immediately attacks our acclamator. For the feds to have a 1 attack kill, they will have to overcome a 7E22W shield. This amounts to a 644 starship strong federation fleet. Now you realize trek’s dilemma. It takes 644 ships to kill a star wars troop transport. Vong warships, on the other hand, seem to be on par with star destroyers, which are much more modern, dedicated warships. Assuming that the Vong ships have the same capability of Acclamators, which as I have just stated is a bad assumption, and the scenario’s 3 fleets of 170 warships each, it would take a surprise attack from 328,440 federation starships to defeat the Vong. Factor in that your completely baseless assumption of a fed fleet with 70,000 ships at most and the fact that Vong ships are fast enough that they can dictate any battle, and the federation is screwed. Also realize this is using your bullshit numbers. Most calculations from observed trek capabilities give a significantly lower estimate of their firepower and fleet numbers.

It's worth repeating that this represents virtually the minimum yield that photon torpedoes could have and still fit in with the above episode statements. Higher yields are perfectly possible and indeed quite likely if we are to take phrases such as 'lay waste to the surface of the world' at face value.

Uh, because you say so? I'm no nuclear engineer, but in my opinion 26,000 simultaneously launched nukes is not going to do good things for the surface of a world.

'How can we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet and still be so helpless!'
Somewhat remarkably, this indicates that the surface of the planet would be totally devastated even by the collateral damage of blasting through the planetary shields! This would would presumably be only a small portion of the total attack, indicating a total firepower much greater than a mere few thousand megatons - perhaps even several orders of magnitude greater.

Once again, you have no idea what blasting through these shields entails or even how they do it. For all we know, to form a shield that large they may have massive reactors that when hit by stray torpedoes after the shield goes down would go nuclear and devastate the planet.

[Batman]

Food for thought-even assuming hopelessly overblown 2 GT torpedoes (when PTs are MAYBE single figure MT) and 50% yield delivered you'd need to hit a single Acclamator with about 17,000 photon torpedoes A SECOND to take down her shields. Um-no.
I find the range advantage argument particularly funny because Trek ships routinely duke it out at ranges where modern fighter pilots would switch to guns, while Wars is on record to have LIGHTHOUR ranges for heavy turbolasers.

[Srelex]

Haven't there been descriptions of relatively 'long' range battles at tens of thousands of kilometers in ST? I don't remember the visuals usually matching up to this, however, except maybe in TOS, which was largely down to effects limitations anyway, which it makes it a bit schizophrenic. That said, I am aware of battles explictly described and shown as taking place in the vicinty of 100 meters in DS9...

[Batman]

TOS DID have battles at 10,000s of kilometres, thanks to dialogue and the dialogue not being contradicted by visuals because they didn't have the MONEY for visuals.

[Picard]

"Demonstrate that Elba II was meaningfully inhabited outside of the asylum dome.

You're making a bunch of wild assumptions based solely on generous interpretations on things found only in dialogue. As has been said, please back them up by something quantifiable. And then please explain how the E-nil has multiple gigatons of firepower when the presumably more-advanced E-D has been demonstrated through analysis of visual evidence (done years, and years ago,) of barely managing a few megatons (and I'm being generous here)?"

Photon torpedo explosive yield can be manipulated - you wont use rocket launcher to kill someone when pistol is enough.

"General Order 24: An order to destroy all life on an entire planet. This order has been given by Captain Garth (Antos IV) and Captain Kirk (Eminiar VII). On neither occasion was the order actually fulfilled. (TOS: "A Taste of Armageddon", "Whom Gods Destroy") "

About ranges:
Nebula class torpedo range: 300 000 kilometers
Constitution class phaser range: 90 000 kilometers

Just how powerful are the weapons of Star Trek?

A good question, and one without any easy answer. Different sources point to different figures, and the intent of this article is to list the evidence, outline the contradictions, and suggest a solution. Some of the thinking contained within is original to myself, but much is not. I have discussed this subject many times with the residents of various newsgroups and with those of you who contact me via the website over these kinds of issues, and the following could be considered to be a summation of those discussions. There's no way I could begin to remember the names of everybody with whom I have discussed this topic over the last few years, so I will just have to say a general thank you to all those involved who have helped make this article as (hopefully) useful as it is.

In the original Star Trek series there is, surprisingly, a near total lack of any data on how powerful photon torpedoes are. This is because we were only ever given a very vague idea of how destructive these weapons could be.

In 'A Taste of Armageddon', for example, Kirk is captured whilst on the surface of the planet Eminiar VII. Eminiar is fighting a computer-simulated war with its neighbouring planet, Vendikar. When the computers register a person as a casualty they are expected to report to one of numerous disintegration chambers and immolate themselves. Determined to stop the war, Kirk manages to get a message to Scotty in which he orders him to implement General Order 24. Scotty issues the following ultimatum to the Eminian civilisation :


Scotty : 'All cities and installations on Eminiar VII have been located, identified and fed into our fire control system. In one hour forty five minutes the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.'

This is not the only time the Enterprise is claimed to be capable of this level of devastation. In 'Bread and Circuses', Kirk talks to the leader of a world whose civilisation has paralleled that of Earth, but with one important difference : on this world, the Roman Empire never fell. The leader, Marcus, captured a Federation ship's crew some six years earlier and convinced its commanding officer, Captain R.M. Merrick, to work with him. In a conversation with Kirk, Marcus says :


Marcus : 'From what I understand, your vessel could lay waste to the entire surface of the world.'

Marcus is not himself an expert in Starship capabilities of course, but he has had a ship's captain as his advisor for some six years and so is certain to have a good general idea of the capabilities of the ship.

Both of these examples are phrased somewhat vaguely. Certainly neither could be taken as proof that the Enterprise could 'destroy a planet' in the sense of blasting a whole world into fragments, as the destruction of the Veridian star did to the planets of that system in 'Star Trek : Generations'. Nor could one conclusively assume that the ship could vaporise or melt the entire surface of a planet. But it is certain that at the very minimum the original series Enteprise could eradicate the entire population of a developed world by destroying every significant structure on the surface. Even for a world as 'primitive' as present day Earth this would comprise some thousands of cities and many times that total targets.

We cannot know for sure how much of this kind of massive attack would have been done with phasers as opposed to how much with photon torpedoes. It is conceivable that the phasers would account for the vast majority of the firepower, leaving photon torpedoes as a relatively weak weapon. But this hardly seems credible - if photon torpedoes were really so weak in comparison to phasers then what would be the point in equipping a ship with them? Photons are certainly used to attack other spacecraft on several occasions during the original series, and although it is hard to properly judge the relative effectiveness of the weapons they do seem to be on a par with phasers.

This would indicate that the total yield of the photon torpedo complement of the Enterprise is at least comparable with the entire present day nuclear arsenal of the world, if not considerably greater. To judge individual weapon yields we would have to have an idea of just how many torpedoes the ship could carry, and unfortunately the only reference we have to this is vague indeed - in the aforementioned 'A Taste of Armageddon' Scotty muses that he could treat the Eminians to 'a few dozen photon torpedoes', thus establishing that the ship has at least this many. The upper limit can only be guessed at; the much later, larger and more advanced Enterprise-D carried approximately 250 torpedoes, so it seems unlikely that Kirk's ship would carry significantly more than this.

At the height of the cold war the nuclear powers of the Earth held arsenals with a total yield well into the thousands of megatons. If the Enterprise at least matches this total with only two hundred or so warheads, then each weapon would have a yield well in excess of ten megatons. Weapons with this kind of yield are well within the capabilities of present day science - indeed, bombs with yields of some 50 megatons were successfully tested several decades ago. Producing such energy with a matter/antimatter charge should be relatively straightforward for 23rd century technology. With the recent advent of photons in the tens of megatons range on Enterprise, set a century before Kirk's time, it seems certain that the weapons in use during the original series were at least this powerful. See later on for more details of the Enterprise weapons.

It's worth repeating that this represents virtually the minimum yield that photon torpedoes could have and still fit in with the above episode statements. Higher yields are perfectly possible and indeed quite likely if we are to take phrases such as 'lay waste to the surface of the world' at face value. At least one original series episode points to an even greater level of destruction than this; in 'Whom Gods Destroy', Captain Kirk is trapped in a Federation lunatic asylum which has been taken over by one of its inmates, Garth. The whole planet is covered by a planetary shield, and in the following dialogue the crew consider trying to blast through it :


Scotty : 'Mister Sulu. What do your sensors show?'
Sulu : 'We can't beam anybody down sir. The forcefield on the planet is in full operation and all forms of transport into the asylum dome are blocked off. '
Scotty : 'Aye... we could blast our way through the field but only at the risk of destroying the Captain, Mister Spock and any other living thing on Elba II.'
McCoy : 'How can we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet and still be so helpless!'

Somewhat remarkably, this indicates that the surface of the planet would be totally devastated even by the collateral damage of blasting through the planetary shields! This would would presumably be only a small portion of the total attack, indicating a total firepower much greater than a mere few thousand megatons - perhaps even several orders of magnitude greater.

[Picard]

"while Wars is on record to have LIGHTHOUR ranges for heavy turbolasers."

Seen in any movie?

[Norade]

Demonstrate that Elba II was meaningfully inhabited outside of the asylum dome.

You're making a bunch of wild assumptions based solely on generous interpretations on things found only in dialogue. As has been said, please back them up by something quantifiable. And then please explain how the E-nil has multiple gigatons of firepower when the presumably more-advanced E-D has been demonstrated through analysis of visual evidence (done years, and years ago,) of barely managing a few megatons (and I'm being generous here)?

Photon torpedo explosive yield can be manipulated - you wont use rocket launcher to kill someone when pistol is enough.

Yes, but explain why we never see larger yields? The Enterprise, as stated by her own crew, couldn't destroy a moderately sized asteroid.

General Order 24: An order to destroy all life on an entire planet. This order has been given by Captain Garth (Antos IV) and Captain Kirk (Eminiar VII). On neither occasion was the order actually fulfilled. (TOS: "A Taste of Armageddon", "Whom Gods Destroy")

About ranges:
Nebula class torpedo range: 300 000 kilometers
Constitution class phaser range: 90 000 kilometers

From which source?

Just how powerful are the weapons of Star Trek?

A good question, and one without any easy answer. Different sources point to different figures, and the intent of this article is to list the evidence, outline the contradictions, and suggest a solution. Some of the thinking contained within is original to myself, but much is not. I have discussed this subject many times with the residents of various newsgroups and with those of you who contact me via the website over these kinds of issues, and the following could be considered to be a summation of those discussions. There's no way I could begin to remember the names of everybody with whom I have discussed this topic over the last few years, so I will just have to say a general thank you to all those involved who have helped make this article as (hopefully) useful as it is.

Can we see the scenes you scaled from and the math you used to gain your yields? If you have done all this work it must be easy to show us.

<Snipped Example Scene for Length>

Both of these examples are phrased somewhat vaguely. Certainly neither could be taken as proof that the Enterprise could 'destroy a planet' in the sense of blasting a whole world into fragments, as the destruction of the Veridian star did to the planets of that system in 'Star Trek : Generations'. Nor could one conclusively assume that the ship could vaporise or melt the entire surface of a planet. But it is certain that at the very minimum the original series Enteprise could eradicate the entire population of a developed world by destroying every significant structure on the surface. Even for a world as 'primitive' as present day Earth this would comprise some thousands of cities and many times that total targets.

We cannot know for sure how much of this kind of massive attack would have been done with phasers as opposed to how much with photon torpedoes. It is conceivable that the phasers would account for the vast majority of the firepower, leaving photon torpedoes as a relatively weak weapon. But this hardly seems credible - if photon torpedoes were really so weak in comparison to phasers then what would be the point in equipping a ship with them? Photons are certainly used to attack other spacecraft on several occasions during the original series, and although it is hard to properly judge the relative effectiveness of the weapons they do seem to be on a par with phasers.

So once again you can only speculate and assume that each building needs to be taken down to destroy everything, you also assume that such an attack could even be carried out and isn't just another of Kirk's famous bluffs.

This would indicate that the total yield of the photon torpedo complement of the Enterprise is at least comparable with the entire present day nuclear arsenal of the world, if not considerably greater. To judge individual weapon yields we would have to have an idea of just how many torpedoes the ship could carry, and unfortunately the only reference we have to this is vague indeed - in the aforementioned 'A Taste of Armageddon' Scotty muses that he could treat the Eminians to 'a few dozen photon torpedoes', thus establishing that the ship has at least this many. The upper limit can only be guessed at; the much later, larger and more advanced Enterprise-D carried approximately 250 torpedoes, so it seems unlikely that Kirk's ship would carry significantly more than this.

So at maximum a Starfleet vessel carries in the mid to low hundreds of torpedoes, and minimum they carry 36.

At the height of the cold war the nuclear powers of the Earth held arsenals with a total yield well into the thousands of megatons. If the Enterprise at least matches this total with only two hundred or so warheads, then each weapon would have a yield well in excess of ten megatons. Weapons with this kind of yield are well within the capabilities of present day science - indeed, bombs with yields of some 50 megatons were successfully tested several decades ago. Producing such energy with a matter/antimatter charge should be relatively straightforward for 23rd century technology. With the recent advent of photons in the tens of megatons range on Enterprise, set a century before Kirk's time, it seems certain that the weapons in use during the original series were at least this powerful. See later on for more details of the Enterprise weapons.

So we have a low end rating of 10 megatons or hundreds of thousands of times less than the output of a transports guns in Star Wars.

It's worth repeating that this represents virtually the minimum yield that photon torpedoes could have and still fit in with the above episode statements. Higher yields are perfectly possible and indeed quite likely if we are to take phrases such as 'lay waste to the surface of the world' at face value. At least one original series episode points to an even greater level of destruction than this; in 'Whom Gods Destroy', Captain Kirk is trapped in a Federation lunatic asylum which has been taken over by one of its inmates, Garth. The whole planet is covered by a planetary shield, and in the following dialogue the crew consider trying to blast through it :

Scotty : 'Mister Sulu. What do your sensors show?'
Sulu : 'We can't beam anybody down sir. The forcefield on the planet is in full operation and all forms of transport into the asylum dome are blocked off. '
Scotty : 'Aye... we could blast our way through the field but only at the risk of destroying the Captain, Mister Spock and any other living thing on Elba II.'
McCoy : 'How can we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet and still be so helpless!'

Somewhat remarkably, this indicates that the surface of the planet would be totally devastated even by the collateral damage of blasting through the planetary shields! This would would presumably be only a small portion of the total attack, indicating a total firepower much greater than a mere few thousand megatons - perhaps even several orders of magnitude greater.

Once again unfounded dialogue, Star Trek characters are often shown to be wrong about a great many things they say and thus only observed firepower can be used for calculations. Dialogue can however be used to confirm calculated numbers.

while Wars is on record to have LIGHTHOUR ranges for heavy turbolasers.

Seen in any movie?

It doesn't need to be, unlike with Star Trek the books are cannon for Star Wars and nothing we have seen in the movies disproves or contradicts these ranges. Though, to my knowledge, the furthest shot we see is when the DSI fires on Alderaan from about the distance from our Earth to the Moon or a range of 405,696km or about 1.35 light seconds.

[Picard]

Nebula class torpedo range is stated/seen in TNG episode "The Wounded". About Constitution class phaser range, I don't recall from where it is, but it is from TOS.

"Yes, but explain why we never see larger yields? "

We see them in DS9 episode "The Die is cast", in scene when Romulan/Cardassian fleet bombards Founder homeworld. And D'Deridex class is stated as having comparable firepower to Galaxy class starship. As for starship combat, there might be targeting issue with high-powered weapos (although that does not matter really here, ISD is nowhere as small and manouverable as most ST ships - even D'Deridex is much more manouverable than Imperial-II, not to count SSD).

About canonity:

-----G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.
T-canon[1] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee.[2]
C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.
S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.
N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I-III. -----

That means that anything that outright contradicts movies is not canon.


This, for example:
So we have a low end rating of 10 megatons or hundreds of thousands of times less than the output of a transports guns in Star Wars.

[Norade]

Just a hint, there is a quote button. Most people have figured it out by now. Maybe you should try it.

The tags to use it manually are:

Code: Select all

[quote][/quote]

Nebula class torpedo range is stated/seen in TNG episode "The Wounded". About Constitution class phaser range, I don't recall from where it is, but it is from TOS.

So one you have no proof of besides it's in TOS somewhere. For the other, could you link a youtube clip and give me a time for both the dialogue and the visuals? I'm not doing your work for you.

Yes, but explain why we never see larger yields?

We see them in DS9 episode "The Die is cast", in scene when Romulan/Cardassian fleet bombards Founder homeworld. And D'Deridex class is stated as having comparable firepower to Galaxy class starship. As for starship combat, there might be targeting issue with high-powered weapos (although that does not matter really here, ISD is nowhere as small and manouverable as most ST ships - even D'Deridex is much more manouverable than Imperial-II, not to count SSD).

'The Die is Cast' maybe there should be a sticky about this episode because it has been beaten down so many times. Anyway...

First, can you show me which scenes your calculations of firepower are from and state the methods you have used to obtain them? Second, we see that a ship as large an unsophisticated as a Trade Federation ship from TMP can track a fighter so please prove your claim that ST ships could just dodge firepower from an ISD.

About canonity:

<snipped the well known Lucasarts cannon policy>

That means that anything that outright contradicts movies is not canon.

Yes, except those ranges haven't been contradicted and the only close ranged battles we see in the movies all have good reasons for being close range. For example, the battle at the end of RotJ was forced into close range by the Emperor's trap and interidictors.

This, for example:
So we have a low end rating of 10 megatons or hundreds of thousands of times less than the output of a transports guns in Star Wars.

Yes, please show where this isn't supported. Scaling from the DSI's feat of destroying a roughly Earth sized planet shows that it is possible as do light guns on an ISD slagging asteroids and the Slave-1 doing the same.

Please do try to include numbers and well sourced sources in your next post. Though this debate is dead I don't care to do your work for you.

[Batman]

Heck, if he wants to scale down from the Death Star instead of using the existing canon numbers, I'm game

[Picard]

'The Die is Cast' maybe there should be a sticky about this episode because it has been beaten down so many times. Anyway...

First, can you show me which scenes your calculations of firepower are from and state the methods you have used to obtain them? Second, we see that a ship as large an unsophisticated as a Trade Federation ship from TMP can track a fighter so please prove your claim that ST ships could just dodge firepower from an ISD.

http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daymain=/ ... cle.php?24

ST ships have weapons range of few hundred thousand kilometers (TNG: "The Wounded"). We never saw SW ship (other than Death Star) firing on target past few tens of kilometers.

Yes, except those ranges haven't been contradicted and the only close ranged battles we see in the movies all have good reasons for being close range. For example, the battle at the end of RotJ was forced into close range by the Emperor's trap and interidictors.

And inability of ISD to hit MF at distance of few hundred meters?

Yes, please show where this isn't supported. Scaling from the DSI's feat of destroying a roughly Earth sized planet shows that it is possible as do light guns on an ISD slagging asteroids and the Slave-1 doing the same.

Please do try to include numbers and well sourced sources in your next post. Though this debate is dead I don't care to do your work for you.

And why ISD's then just did not destroy asteroids in their path during TESB (considering one ISD was lost to 100-200 meter stone)?

[Batman]

SNIPPY speculation
ST ships have weapons range of few hundred thousand kilometers (TNG: "The Wounded"). We never saw SW ship (other than Death Star) firing on target past few tens of kilometers.

We have canon quotes for lighthour and lightminute ranges for Wars weapons. Not overridden by higher canon. You have exactly ONE example example of lightSECOND range when usually Trek ships duke it out at ranges measured in MAYBE double digit KILOMETRES.

Yes, except those ranges haven't been contradicted and the only close ranged battles we see in the movies all have good reasons for being close range. For example, the battle at the end of RotJ was forced into close range by the Emperor's trap and interidictors.

And inability of ISD to hit MF at distance of few hundred meters?

So? Trek ships routinely miss aircraft-carrier sized targets maneuvering like supertankers at similar ranges. At least the Falcon had the excuse of being small and nimble. And they DID hit her numbnuts. Just not with every shot. And the others might have been DELIBERATE misses to herd her into a certain position.

And why ISD's then just did not destroy asteroids in their path during TESB (considering one ISD was lost to 100-200 meter stone)?

A pity that never happened. One ISD was hit in the bridge and lost communications, nothing more. Oh, and they DID destroy asteroids in their path you imbecile. One simply slipped through.

[Norade]

'The Die is Cast' maybe there should be a sticky about this episode because it has been beaten down so many times. Anyway...

First, can you show me which scenes your calculations of firepower are from and state the methods you have used to obtain them? Second, we see that a ship as large an unsophisticated as a Trade Federation ship from TMP can track a fighter so please prove your claim that ST ships could just dodge firepower from an ISD.

http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daymain=/ ... cle.php?24

ST ships have weapons range of few hundred thousand kilometers (TNG: "The Wounded"). We never saw SW ship (other than Death Star) firing on target past few tens of kilometers.

Yeah, not reading through that brain melting sludge. Not to mention that they also think non-cannon means, we can ignore it when we don't need it but pull numbers from it to support our side. Therefore any TNG:TM numbers must be thrown out, when you do that the page you linked to suddenly has far less data than it seems to at first. Also, show the screen shots or video clips that your numbers come from. Simply stating but... but... 'The Die is Cast' and the TM doesn't prove fuck all.

Yes, except those ranges haven't been contradicted and the only close ranged battles we see in the movies all have good reasons for being close range. For example, the battle at the end of RotJ was forced into close range by the Emperor's trap and interidictors.

And inability of ISD to hit MF at distance of few hundred meters?

Wrong again retard, they do score hits against a the Falcon, a vessel of lesser size and greater speed and agility than most ST vessels.

Yes, please show where this isn't supported. Scaling from the DSI's feat of destroying a roughly Earth sized planet shows that it is possible as do light guns on an ISD slagging asteroids and the Slave-1 doing the same.

Please do try to include numbers and well sourced sources in your next post. Though this debate is dead I don't care to do your work for you.

And why ISD's then just did not destroy asteroids in their path during TESB (considering one ISD was lost to 100-200 meter stone)?

First off, have you seen the movies? Second they were blowing them out of the sky. Third that ship suffered minor damage and wasn't destroyed.

[Perseid]

'The Die is Cast' maybe there should be a sticky about this episode because it has been beaten down so many times. Anyway...

First, can you show me which scenes your calculations of firepower are from and state the methods you have used to obtain them? Second, we see that a ship as large an unsophisticated as a Trade Federation ship from TMP can track a fighter so please prove your claim that ST ships could just dodge firepower from an ISD.

http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daymain=/ ... cle.php?24

ST ships have weapons range of few hundred thousand kilometers (TNG: "The Wounded"). We never saw SW ship (other than Death Star) firing on target past few tens of kilometers.

Going by the information that DITL have for the weapons yields, a ISD can destroy a star system with it's main guns since this multikinetic borg bomb will produce a yield of 12,400,000 Megatons (12.4 Terratons).

Yes, except those ranges haven't been contradicted and the only close ranged battles we see in the movies all have good reasons for being close range. For example, the battle at the end of RotJ was forced into close range by the Emperor's trap and interidictors.

And inability of ISD to hit MF at distance of few hundred meters?

Yes, please show where this isn't supported. Scaling from the DSI's feat of destroying a roughly Earth sized planet shows that it is possible as do light guns on an ISD slagging asteroids and the Slave-1 doing the same.

Please do try to include numbers and well sourced sources in your next post. Though this debate is dead I don't care to do your work for you.

And why ISD's then just did not destroy asteroids in their path during TESB (considering one ISD was lost to 100-200 meter stone)?[/quote]

As Norade said above, the Falcon was getting hit and the ISD wasn't lost...it also didn't have it's shields up as at the time of impact the Captains were in a holo conference with Vader.

[Norade]

Corsec, you might want to preview your post next time.

[Perseid]

Ah yes, could a mod fix my quote tags please so my previous post is easier to read

[Darksun]

From the ROTS cross-sections

The DBY-827's precise, long-range tracking mode enables it to hit a target vessel at distances of over ten light-minutes

That is a heavy turbolaser on the venator-class. That is 179,875,474.8 km. A little more than your 90 000 km phaser.

Where does this 'lolz star wars has no range' argument come from? You don't see ships in star wars duking it out beyond eye sight but nor do you SEE any space combat in star trek doing the same. Because the visual effects designers for both franchises understand it looks a lot better with ships in visual range duking it out.

Nice assumption coupled with double standards there.

[Darksun]

ghetto edit:

As for the vong they are such religious fanatic anti technological douches, I think I would actually cheer for the Feddies, even if they didn't have a chance.

[Uncluttered]

Hand phasers would have no trouble penetrating Yuuzhan'Vong warrior's armor.

I disagree with most of what you say.
However, there is a non-zero chance that the phaser might start a disintegration reaction in organic base armor.

Phasers cause a disintegrating NDF chain reaction in lighter elements.
Organic life tends to be made of Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, with a dash of Phosphorous, Sulfer, Snew, and a pinch of trace elements.

We could try to assume that vong armor is equivalent to stormtrooper armor, but even if it was, we do not know conclusively if storm trooper armor can block a phaser. If the armor is made of lightweight carbon composites, it might help against blasters because blasters damage with kinetic and heat energy.

Even if storm trooper armor is reasonable effective against phaser blasts, this doesn't mean vong armor is. They vong came from the far away galaxy of stupid.
Maybe someone else can tell us if the vong were at least aware of disintegration technology before they developed their biowank.


Now, because the vong are more stupid in concept than startrek. I'm going to wave my hand and say I'd like trek phasers to work against vong.
Maybe the phasers work so well that a minor trek power erases them from history, and we don't ever have to hear about them again.

Here's the link to NDF theory. It's brilliant.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... heory.html

[Simon_Jester]

On the subject of ship ranges, and only the subject of ship ranges:

TOS DID have battles at 10,000s of kilometres, thanks to dialogue and the dialogue not being contradicted by visuals because they didn't have the MONEY for visuals.

How is that not good enough?

Visuals changed to favor visual-range engagement because of bigger budgets... like George Lucas had for the original Star Wars movies, where the amazingly capable Star Wars fighters chose to engage each other using WWII-vintage dogfight tactics, and where capital ships tend to engage at ranges typical of WWII fleet battles.

So I have to say that "your ships have comically short range because that's what we see in the visuals" is not a good place to stand for a Star Wars fan. Every space battle we've ever seen in Star Wars at the highest level of canon was fought at comically short range. We can come up with justifications for that (one side wanting a point blank dogfight badly enough to seek one out, for instance), but we can't get rid of the visuals entirely.

The same applies to Star Trek: we can't handwave away the fact that many battles are fought within visual range, but we also can't handwave away the fact that some aren't.

[Batman]

Who's trying to deny that? The larger TOS ranges stand BECAUSE of the lack of visuals. Sulu says 10,000 kilometres, and since there's no external shots showing that's clearly bogus, the range is 10,000 km.
Same goes for TNG's The Wounded. Stated range is 300,000 km, and since our only visual reference is a clearly not to scale tactical display, we accept the shot was fired at 300,000 km.
I'm not trying to get the TOS ranges thrown out due to lack of visuals. Quite the contrary in fact.

[Darksun]

I think he was talking to me, even though he quoted you.

I tried emphasizing SEE to avoid any misunderstandings.

My point was you don't see any long range combat in trek, you hear, and that is explained by lack of budget as much as anything as has already been pointed out. As soon as there was money for visuals trek became exactly like wars in its depiction of ranges but only star wars is assumed to be at its limit.

Canon info is out there as to the ranges of star wars combat but it is conveniently ignored.

On a side note, i wonder if there is any starship combat in the eu novels that takes place at extreme ranges seeing as though they don't rely on on screen visuals either, albeit for different reasons.