Trekkie Wall o' Text

[phred]

The best bet on the Red Matter would be to lob it at the planet's surface and hope for the best. If they try to commence drilling operations anywhere on the planet hundreds to thousands will die instantly. That would get a quick response from anyone with a weapon in firing range.

Even if the attack was successful, it would be more of a 9/11 than a 'destroy the head' type of event

[Oskuro]

Maybe I missed it but, doesn't Coruscant have a planetary shield? How are they getting through that anyway?

[Batman]

A double layered one at that according to some sources

[Isolder74]

The more we talk about it the more I realize this would be a pointless attack. Perhaps Palpatine would let them at least take out a few blocks just to make them think they did it on their own to get the galaxy up in arms but I really doubt it.

[Samuel]

2) The main governing system of the Empire, the Moffs, is not on Coruscant and so much of the political system will remain intact if it is lost.

3) Darth Vader is not regularly at Coruscant so, even if they manage to kill Palpatine, the Empire will not be leaderless.

I'm pretty sure Vader is not second in the line of succession. Additionally the Moffs would probably fight for dominance. Of course the best way to establish legitamacy would be to destroy the fools who killed the beloved Emperor so this makes the situation more... fun.

[Isolder74]

2) The main governing system of the Empire, the Moffs, is not on Coruscant and so much of the political system will remain intact if it is lost.

3) Darth Vader is not regularly at Coruscant so, even if they manage to kill Palpatine, the Empire will not be leaderless.

I'm pretty sure Vader is not second in the line of succession. Additionally the Moffs would probably fight for dominance. Of course the best way to establish legitamacy would be to destroy the fools who killed the beloved Emperor so this makes the situation more... fun.

I'm pretty sure He is. While the Moffs may not all know it(the Grand Admirals might) none of them would contest his taking the throne(his succession is even implied In ESB).

So pretty much after analyzing the entire plan we can come to only one conclusion, Coruscant only goes down or is damaged in any way if Palpatine allows it making any succession problems moot. He's just not going to be in town on that day, it's as simple as that.

[Batman]

Err-there WAS no line of succession. Palpatine very much intended to run the Empire forever. When he failed/as it appeared he had died people sufficiently ENTRENCHED in the power structure took over best as they could (Sate Pestage/Isanne Isard).

[The Romulan Republic]

Maybe I missed it but, doesn't Coruscant have a planetary shield? How are they getting through that anyway?

I doubt they keep it up a hundred percent of the time. Ships have to land, after all. And it probably takes at least a minute or two to raise the thing.

Their are bigger issues with pulling off a WMD strike on Coruscant (range for Trek warp drives, Palpatine's precog). But in theory a surprise attack could get by the shield.

[Akkleptos]

What Isolder74 wrote

Yup, that's pretty much the point.

Of course, if we LOOK at the Red Matter, and do not assume that Nero wass just plain stupid (you can never rule that out in Trek) - then they need to sit over Coruscant for about half an hour (or longer) - over a planet with thousands of starships - good luck with that.

A half an hour? The Emperor and the Senate would be in shuttles and gone before then. Even if they pulled it off, the Federation is hosed!

Forget being gone...

If Imperial citizens on Coruscant with ships of a decent firepower learn about the attack, they'd just swarm and destroy Nero's ship in a blink of an eye. And that's just talking about civilians.

Err-there WAS no line of succession. Palpatine very much intended to run the Empire forever. When he failed/as it appeared he had died people sufficiently ENTRENCHED in the power structure took over best as they could (Sate Pestage/Isanne Isard).

Yeah, but who's going to be the brave one to dispute over lines of succession with Lord Vader? Especially in the face on such an attack on the Empire's very core wolrd.

[Lord Revan]

Maybe I missed it but, doesn't Coruscant have a planetary shield? How are they getting through that anyway?

I doubt they keep it up a hundred percent of the time. Ships have to land, after all. And it probably takes at least a minute or two to raise the thing.

Their are bigger issues with pulling off a WMD strike on Coruscant (range for Trek warp drives, Palpatine's precog). But in theory a surprise attack could get by the shield.

the shield is taken down in unknown sized sections only IIRC not fully down or up and the upper layer is quite far from the surface too (the CIS fleet in ROTS was suppose to be between the layers according to some sources) also there's third weaker shield on the surface to deal with crashing starships and such and that's ignoring the homefleet and any other orbital defeces Corusant has.

[The Romulan Republic]

the shield is taken down in unknown sized sections only IIRC not fully down or up and the upper layer is quite far from the surface too (the CIS fleet in ROTS was suppose to be between the layers according to some sources) also there's third weaker shield on the surface to deal with crashing starships and such and that's ignoring the homefleet and any other orbital defeces Corusant has.

The point being that their are going to be big holes in the shield at any time, unless their is an attack under way. Sure, if they know an attack's coming, they'll be able to close those gaps pretty fast. But it should be quite possible (in theory) to slip something through with a well-planned surprise.

Just for the sake of argument, what's to stop someone stowing a bunch of Red Matter or whatever inside a civilian ship, passing through a gap in the shield, and setting it off in a suicide mission? Or firing a torpedo through a gap in the shield?

Again, the problem with a sneak WMD attack is probably not the shields themselves, so much as it is Sith precognition and the simple difficulties in reaching Coruscant on a warp drive.

[Akkleptos]

If incoming object recognition is posible nowadays, what's to keep any undesirable or altogether weird foreign-object from being detected by not one but several athmospherical controls on Coruscant, when such a thing isn't relatively difficult for modern-day recognition algorythms?

[Ghost Rider]

the shield is taken down in unknown sized sections only IIRC not fully down or up and the upper layer is quite far from the surface too (the CIS fleet in ROTS was suppose to be between the layers according to some sources) also there's third weaker shield on the surface to deal with crashing starships and such and that's ignoring the homefleet and any other orbital defeces Corusant has.

The point being that their are going to be big holes in the shield at any time, unless their is an attack under way. Sure, if they know an attack's coming, they'll be able to close those gaps pretty fast. But it should be quite possible (in theory) to slip something through with a well-planned surprise.

Just for the sake of argument, what's to stop someone stowing a bunch of Red Matter or whatever inside a civilian ship, passing through a gap in the shield, and setting it off in a suicide mission? Or firing a torpedo through a gap in the shield?

Again, the problem with a sneak WMD attack is probably not the shields themselves, so much as it is Sith precognition and the simple difficulties in reaching Coruscant on a warp drive.

You mean aside from the sensors that detect around Coruscant's orbit, or the fleet that sits there, or maybe the defense platforms that are out there.

All before you get to the shields.

Sure, the political heart of the galaxy sits there in serene beauty waiting for the next yaboo to come along.

[Lord Revan]

the shield is taken down in unknown sized sections only IIRC not fully down or up and the upper layer is quite far from the surface too (the CIS fleet in ROTS was suppose to be between the layers according to some sources) also there's third weaker shield on the surface to deal with crashing starships and such and that's ignoring the homefleet and any other orbital defeces Corusant has.

The point being that their are going to be big holes in the shield at any time, unless their is an attack under way. Sure, if they know an attack's coming, they'll be able to close those gaps pretty fast. But it should be quite possible (in theory) to slip something through with a well-planned surprise.

Just for the sake of argument, what's to stop someone stowing a bunch of Red Matter or whatever inside a civilian ship, passing through a gap in the shield, and setting it off in a suicide mission? Or firing a torpedo through a gap in the shield?

Again, the problem with a sneak WMD attack is probably not the shields themselves, so much as it is Sith precognition and the simple difficulties in reaching Coruscant on a warp drive.

as I and others have pointed out the shield isn't Corusant's only mode of defense, also trafic in and out of Corusant is rather heavily monitored and regulared, so it might not be a simple matter of just warping and hiding in the inbound trafic to get past the defenses.

also IIRC the shields modulated such that there isn't a constant gap all the way to the surface but when shield 1 is down from sector 23434, shield 2 is up on the same sector (there's a rather large gap between the layers after all).

and then there's a minor thing that the empire would have no reservations of closing the gap for the inner shield layer if they spotted problems.

sure it might be possible for your suggestion to work, but it's very, very inlikely to work.

and that's even before we get to the problems of getting to Corusant orbit.

[The Romulan Republic]

You mean aside from the sensors that detect around Coruscant's orbit, or the fleet that sits there, or maybe the defense platforms that are out there.

The sensors, maybe. I doubt the fleet or the defense platforms will start firing unless the sensors pick up something suspicious, or that Customs searches and boards every single ship. Much like the Death Star, most of Coruscant's defenses are more geared toward holding off a conventional fleet. I agree, once the alarm was raised, then any attacker would have to concern themselves with all of the above.

Sure, the political heart of the galaxy sits there in serene beauty waiting for the next yaboo to come along.

Not at all, and I never said it did. No more does Washington DC. That doesn't mean its impossible to carry out a successful terror/WMD attack. Just difficult.

as I and others have pointed out the shield isn't Corusant's only mode of defense, also trafic in and out of Corusant is rather heavily monitored and regulared, so it might not be a simple matter of just warping and hiding in the inbound trafic to get past the defenses.

Fair enough. I never said it would be easy.

also IIRC the shields modulated such that there isn't a constant gap all the way to the surface but when shield 1 is down from sector 23434, shield 2 is up on the same sector (there's a rather large gap between the layers after all).

I'll honestly admit I hadn't thought of that, though now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure I heard it somewhere before. My mistake.

and then there's a minor thing that the empire would have no reservations of closing the gap for the inner shield layer if they spotted problems.

True.

sure it might be possible for your suggestion to work, but it's very, very inlikely to work.

I'm inclined to agree, actually. But hey, its probably the best bet anyone's got for attacking Coruscant, short of something like a Death Star.

and that's even before we get to the problems of getting to Corusant orbit.

For Trek, that's surely the biggest obstacle, due simply to how slow a warp drive is. You'd be talking a multi-generation ship, that would arrive long after the war was over. Maybe someone with a good cloak and transwarp, but even then I'm not sure I'd like the odds.

[Peptuck]

Just for the sake of argument, what's to stop someone stowing a bunch of Red Matter or whatever inside a civilian ship, passing through a gap in the shield, and setting it off in a suicide mission? Or firing a torpedo through a gap in the shield?

If it's as simple as setting off the Red Matter on the surface of the planet, Nero wouldn't have needed to drill down to the planet's core to actually plant the RM torpedo (assuming Nero isn't a complete idiot and knows what he's doing). Setting off the RM device on a planet's surface might destroy a few dozen or hundred square kilometers of Coruscant's surface at best - devastating, but nothing a turbolaser barrage can't do otherwise.

[The Romulan Republic]

Just for the sake of argument, what's to stop someone stowing a bunch of Red Matter or whatever inside a civilian ship, passing through a gap in the shield, and setting it off in a suicide mission? Or firing a torpedo through a gap in the shield?

If it's as simple as setting off the Red Matter on the surface of the planet, Nero wouldn't have needed to drill down to the planet's core to actually plant the RM torpedo (assuming Nero isn't a complete idiot and knows what he's doing). Setting off the RM device on a planet's surface might destroy a few dozen or hundred square kilometers of Coruscant's surface at best - devastating, but nothing a turbolaser barrage can't do otherwise.

True.

Their are other Trek Superweapons one might use, of course. I vaugely recall a TNG episode where the Klingons used some sort of device to destroy a planet's atmosphere, and also the Borg superweapon concept from Voyager's Dark Fronteir, which I think involved dispersing nanoprobes in a planet's atmosphere. But of course these are both one offs (actually, the Borg one was never even used once).

As we all seem to be agreed, a WMD attack on Coruscant would

a) be somewhere between difficult and impossible, and

b) probably result in completely devestating retalliation on whoever did it.

I'm certainly not arguing any differently. My only real argument is that you could probably slip a superweapon through the shields in a surprise attack, if with difficulty.

[montypython]

Back when Zahn's first SW novel came out the more knowledgeable fans understood how the strategic advantages of the Empire made any ST victory hellish to pull off even with the assumption of technological superiority on ST's part, and today even if one were to completely max out ST's tech abilities with every known high end canon spec ever mentioned/shown, they'd still be overrun no matter what. The fact that the trekkies seem only to focus on itty bitty tactical edges instead of the larger picture just reinforces their lack of critical thinking.

[Lord Revan]

You mean aside from the sensors that detect around Coruscant's orbit, or the fleet that sits there, or maybe the defense platforms that are out there.

The sensors, maybe. I doubt the fleet or the defense platforms will start firing unless the sensors pick up something suspicious, or that Customs searches and boards every single ship. Much like the Death Star, most of Coruscant's defenses are more geared toward holding off a conventional fleet. I agree, once the alarm was raised, then any attacker would have to concern themselves with all of the above.

the thing is that ST ships have a sensor profile that's unlike anything in SW so without a cloak they'll stick out like the proverbial sore thumb and hijacking a civilian transport isn't all that easy (most civilian ships are shielded and some even armed).

reason we generally don't bother even considering this kind of scenarios is that when I say it's unlikely to happen, I mean it has about 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of happening give or take.

[Darth Wong]

Any Trekkie planetary attack idea should be subjected to the litmus test of: "is it really more devastating than what an ISD could do?"

So many of their ideas sound impressive only until you realize that a single ISD could kill just as many people, and it could get there far more quickly and easily. That is simply the background military threat level of the SW universe, and if you can't rise well above it, then you can't threaten them.

[Oskuro]

I guess it is a brainbug planted by the typical budget limitations of tv series. Since they can rarely show big battles, the good guys often win through decapitating strikes that throw their enemies into disarray. Some series even make that their premise (Stargate, I'm looking at you).

[Ted C]

What Isolder74 wrote

Yup, that's pretty much the point.

Of course, if we LOOK at the Red Matter, and do not assume that Nero wass just plain stupid (you can never rule that out in Trek) - then they need to sit over Coruscant for about half an hour (or longer) - over a planet with thousands of starships - good luck with that.

Not only that, they need to drop a drilling device into the atmosphere of and drill a hole into the crust of a planet that has a planetary shield. It's entirely likely that the Federation couldn't successfully deliver a red matter attack if they could actually GET to Coruscant at all.

[The Romulan Republic]

I guess it is a brainbug planted by the typical budget limitations of tv series. Since they can rarely show big battles, the good guys often win through decapitating strikes that throw their enemies into disarray. Some series even make that their premise (Stargate, I'm looking at you).

Actually, I can't think of many examples of a Trek faction pulling off or even attempting a decapitating strike on the national level against another power. About the only incidences of such tactics that jump readily to mind are a few attempts to do so against the Founders in DS9 (all obviously failed, except for the Founders-killing bioweapon), and against the Borg in the Voyager series finale.

So I'm not sure its really fair to just blame such a brain bug on TV Trek (maybe TV sci-fi as a whole).

[bz249]

I guess it is a brainbug planted by the typical budget limitations of tv series. Since they can rarely show big battles, the good guys often win through decapitating strikes that throw their enemies into disarray. Some series even make that their premise (Stargate, I'm looking at you).

Actually, I can't think of many examples of a Trek faction pulling off or even attempting a decapitating strike on the national level against another power. About the only incidences of such tactics that jump readily to mind are a few attempts to do so against the Founders in DS9 (all obviously failed, except for the Founders-killing bioweapon), and against the Borg in the Voyager series finale.

So I'm not sure its really fair to just blame such a brain bug on TV Trek (maybe TV sci-fi as a whole).

Shinzon? Technically what he has done was a coup, yet it was carried out in a single action by killing the Senate and after that point he was the big bad guy.

[The Romulan Republic]

Shinzon? Technically what he has done was a coup, yet it was carried out in a single action by killing the Senate and after that point he was the big bad guy.

True. I've never really watched Nemesis, so that may be why it didn't occur to me, but I should have remembered it.