Rebel Alliance in Star Trek

[Samuel]

It wasn't meant to. It was addressing your assumption that since starfighters have hyperdrives, they wouldn't need carrier ships.

They don't. They can land on planets. Getting supplies to refuel them might be difficult, but less so than the capital ships.

Which doesn't say beans about their range without knowing the actual DISTANCES traveled. As fighters apparently can have 6 figure LY ranges that point is obviously wrong but that doesn't change the fact that fighter cockpits are cramped and uncomfortable so you don't want to leave your pilots in them any longer than necessary.

The rebel alliance isn't known for caring about the physical comfort of its personal- they set up a secret base on Hoth. Build it in the temperate regions? Bah! Limbs are for sissies- frostbite will keep the men on their toes!

Seriously, they had a whole planet and they put it in a place where several hours exposure leads to death.

[Batman]

It wasn't meant to. It was addressing your assumption that since starfighters have hyperdrives, they wouldn't need carrier ships.

They don't. They can land on planets. Getting supplies to refuel them might be difficult, but less so than the capital ships.

You mean the same capital ships that DO have those same supplies, guaranteed? AND the infrastructure and personell to properly maintain starfighters? Because they were DESIGNED to carry and support fighters?

Which doesn't say beans about their range without knowing the actual DISTANCES traveled. As fighters apparently can have 6 figure LY ranges that point is obviously wrong but that doesn't change the fact that fighter cockpits are cramped and uncomfortable so you don't want to leave your pilots in them any longer than necessary.

The rebel alliance isn't known for caring about the physical comfort of its personal- they set up a secret base on Hoth. Build it in the temperate regions? Bah! Limbs are for sissies- frostbite will keep the men on their toes!
Seriously, they had a whole planet and they put it in a place where several hours exposure leads to death.

You will now show the canon quote saying Hoth actually HAD a temperate region. Because, you see, ALL of the SWU evidence I've seen says it was like that all over.

[Aaron]

You will now show the canon quote saying Hoth actually HAD a temperate region. Because, you see, ALL of the SWU evidence I've seen says it was like that all over.

According to Wookiepedia, they were in the temperate region. That info appears to be unsourced though.

[Batman]

Thanks!

[Aaron]

Thanks!

No problem.

[Isolder74]

You will now show the canon quote saying Hoth actually HAD a temperate region. Because, you see, ALL of the SWU evidence I've seen says it was like that all over.

According to Wookiepedia, they were in the temperate region. That info appears to be unsourced though.

Yes they were in the temperate region. Bear in mind that you might think the planet was bad there imagine what further north was like. They put the base on the edge of the temperate zone trying to put it someplace that the Empire was likely not going to look.

[Batman]

Wouldn't the temperate zone be EXACTLY where the Empire was most likely to look given the rest of the planet was even worse? The Rebels were ALREADY struggling to adapt their equipment to the weather so I don't see them hiding in the WORST part of the planet as something that would look particularly likely.

[Isolder74]

Wouldn't the temperate zone be EXACTLY where the Empire was most likely to look given the rest of the planet was even worse? The Rebels were ALREADY struggling to adapt their equipment to the weather so I don't see them hiding in the WORST part of the planet as something that would look particularly likely.

Hence the reason that they built the place as close to the uninhabitable zone as possible. As far as I can tell, much further north and they'd not have much of a chance at all outside.

[Samuel]

You mean the same capital ships that DO have those same supplies, guaranteed? AND the infrastructure and personell to properly maintain starfighters? Because they were DESIGNED to carry and support fighters?

Well, you can build multimillion credit hanger ships to supply the ships on the run OR you can use normal cargo ships to simply carry the supplies. The second is cheaper and ALOT less obvious.

You will now show the canon quote saying Hoth actually HAD a temperate region. Because, you see, ALL of the SWU evidence I've seen says it was like that all over.

That is physically impossible. The planet had Wampas which implies a native ecosystem which implies areas that didn't have complete and total snow cover.

Not to mention that the whole planet cannot be that cold- after all, they are near the parent star and it is a normal star. Partially cheating (the movie could only be filmed on Earth) but the fact the rebel troopers have those shades to deal with snowblindness backs it up.

[Batman]

You mean the same capital ships that DO have those same supplies, guaranteed? AND the infrastructure and personell to properly maintain starfighters? Because they were DESIGNED to carry and support fighters?

Well, you can build multimillion credit hanger ships to supply the ships on the run OR you can use normal cargo ships to simply carry the supplies. The second is cheaper and ALOT less obvious.

Because naturally starfighters will always and inevitably be able to stage out of any system they chose to, at any time the chose to. Oh wait.

You will now show the canon quote saying Hoth actually HAD a temperate region. Because, you see, ALL of the SWU evidence I've seen says it was like that all over.

That is physically impossible. The planet had Wampas which implies a native ecosystem which implies areas that didn't have complete and total snow cover.

Yes, because modern day Earth totally doesn't have life in places that has complete and total snow cover. Oh wait.
Anyway since Wars DOESN'T need to adhere to modern day physics why, exactly, is this relevant?

Not to mention that the whole planet cannot be that cold

Yes it can. As evidenced by the fact that it is.

[Samuel]

Because naturally starfighters will always and inevitably be able to stage out of any system they chose to, at any time the chose to. Oh wait.

It is an entire sector. If they don't have a single world they could use as a support base they are screwed anyways.

Yes, because modern day Earth totally doesn't have life in places that has complete and total snow cover. Oh wait.

Antartica has zero large animals away from the ocean. My point was that they have Wampas (large predators) which doesn't fit with complete snow cover.

Anyway since Wars DOESN'T need to adhere to modern day physics why, exactly, is this relevant?

Biology is not in the field of physics.

Yes it can. As evidenced by the fact that it is.

So Hoth has a sun that is special in that it doesn't give out heat, only visible light? Want to explain how that works?

There are ways to make it work- constant impacts from meteors, crazy orbit, lack of CO2 in atmosphere, giant hidden airconditioner, etc. None of them really make sense though.

[Batman]

Because naturally starfighters will always and inevitably be able to stage out of any system they chose to, at any time they chose to. Oh wait.

It is an entire sector. If they don't have a single world they could use as a support base they are screwed anyways.

No, they're NOT. Because (SURPISE) they happen to have carriers. Which enables them to operate in that sector even if they DON'T have a
world to stage out of, which was my point to begin with.

Yes, because modern day Earth totally doesn't have life in places that has complete and total snow cover. Oh wait.

Antartica has zero large animals away from the ocean.

Antarctica ALSO isn't on a planet with complete snow cover so you just shot down your own line of argumentation.

My point was that they have Wampas (large predators) which doesn't fit with complete snow cover.

As evidenced by what, exactly?

Anyway since Wars DOESN'T need to adhere to modern day physics why, exactly, is this relevant?

Biology is not in the field of physics.

EVERYTHING is in the field of physics, dunderhead. What with physics describing how the world works and all that.

Yes it can. As evidenced by the fact that it is.

So Hoth has a sun that is special in that it doesn't give out heat, only visible light? Want to explain how that works?

Care to elaborate on what KIND of sun Hoth's sun is, and at what distance Hoth orbits it?

[Isolder74]

something to keep in mind. It is the 6th planet from the star. Look at Saturn for reference for how far from the star that might be.

[Samuel]

No, they're NOT. Because (SURPISE) they happen to have carriers. Which enables them to operate in that sector even if they DON'T have a
world to stage out of, which was my point to begin with.

And carriers are free from the need to resupply... how exactly? The fact of the matter is that carriers offer a closer base of operations, but they still need supplies. Or you can use fighters and cargo ships and work where ever there is a breathable atmosphere. Yeah, it has more complications, but the rebelion isn't made out of money.

Antarctica ALSO isn't on a planet with complete snow cover so you just shot down your own line of argumentation.

I have no idea what you are implying here.

As evidenced by what, exactly?

The fact they need something to eat. Ice is notorous low in calories. They would need herbivores to eat, which would need grasses, mosses, etc. Unfortunately, there is no sign, even underground when they dig trenches.

EVERYTHING is in the field of physics, dunderhead. What with physics describing how the world works and all that.

That is beyond nitpicking and you know it. We have seperate fields because certain fields are more appropriate for certain topics. Typically living things are placed under biology because they are too complex to be easily solved with physics equations.

Care to elaborate on what KIND of sun Hoth's sun is, and at what distance Hoth orbits it?

http://www.holored.com/media/images/Cla ... nches3.jpg

Welcome to Hoth, where the Sun is close enough to have normal illumination AND have problems with snow blindness.

Anyone know how quickly illumination from the sun drops off? I know it follows the squared rule, but I don't know how that works in actual appearence.

[Ender]

Jesus Christ Batman, shut the fuck up. You are a complete and utter moron who gets by through being hyper aggressive rather than having even the slightest bit of knowledge about anything, including how to debate. You just get away with it because you had the blind luck to pick the side with the numbers on it and pathetically go after those who don't have the stomach to wade through your megabytes of bullshit. You pull this every single time and I'm getting sick of it.

Seriously; lets look at your bumblefucking in this thread alone:

** Attack Samuel on the basis that you claim range is insufficient while in the same fucking post admitting you don't know the range (and also showing you are too fucking lazy to look it up)

** "Prove Hoth has a temperate region"? Hey moron, are planets spheres? Yep. Does that mean that the incidence of sunlight is going to vary across that sphere? Yep. Does that mean there will be a difference in temperature? Yep. Hey look at that, proof that the planet has a temperate region based off the fact that it isn't fucking flat.

** "Anyway since Wars DOESN'T need to adhere to modern day physics why, exactly, is this relevant?" translation: We don't understand it, so it is infinite magic! Wheeee! Funny, don't you try to play the internet tough guy against kids who try this exact fucking argument but do it on the star trek side? Yep, you sure do! I guess all those frothing rants are just projecting your own self hate.

** "The whole planet can be that cold because it is!" Only if it is a fucking flat plate you ignorant shit, otherwise you will have variations in temperature across it due to varying flux.

** "On earth we have animals in total snow cover!" "No, in areas of total snow cover they need the ocean to survive, without it total snow cover means no large animals." "But snow doesn't cover the entire planet therefore I win!" Yeah go slam your head into the wall for this one, you frankly deserve to be punished for this level of stupidity.

** "Everything is physics" Are you fucking shitting me? I know it is clear that you have exactly zero idea what you are raving about and at this point are just carrying on because of your ego but this is beyond stupid. Aside from the fact that the link between physics and biology is so stretched we split them into wildly divergent fields, even if you take your line of reasoning you are STILL a fucking moron because there is no such thing as physics, just math.

** You make the absurd claim about reality allowing for Hoth to exist, which wouold require a nonexistent kind of star, Samuel points out that this wouldn't fly, and your response is to demand he prove the kind of star? You are the one who require it to be a special type rather than one of the known classifications your useless fuck.



And that's just the highlights of this thread. You pull this shit as a matter of routine. In fact, its all you do. Well that isn't fair, you also pretend to be a fictional sociopath because you think it is cute and fun instead of fucking pathetic.

Shut up. Just shut the fuck up. Do us all a favor, and stop posting until you get your head out of your ass.

[Samuel]

Technically when he said temperate region he meant one that was warm enough for life and foliage, not warm compared to the rest of the planet. Aside from that, you nailed it Ender. Thank you.

Looking at wookepedia... well, contradictory is the best way to say it. They offer some rationales (erratic orbit, etc), but the claim of being on the temperate zone and in a habitable area is impossible due to the total lack of plant life.

Wookepida also mentions alot of tangential (and very stupid) stuff, so it is best not to rely on it too heavily. Seriously, 11% population of Wampas?

[Vehrec]

Wampas eat Tauntauns last time I checked that artbook of the various worlds of Star Wars. The Tauntauns eat lichens that grow in caves, photosynthesizing light that filters in through the ice. There are a lot of rodent-analouges that eat lichens as well. Boom, complete ecosystem on an iceworld.

[Ender]

Wampas eat Tauntauns last time I checked that artbook of the various worlds of Star Wars. The Tauntauns eat lichens that grow in caves, photosynthesizing light that filters in through the ice. There are a lot of rodent-analouges that eat lichens as well. Boom, complete ecosystem on an iceworld.

Calorie requirements and mean free path in ice for photons. Boom, broke as fuck.

[Alien-Carrot]

Just to throw in my 2 cents here, but in think i can prove Hoth must have a temperate zone. And it all has to do with snow. Not the snow on the ground, but the snow falling from the sky.

In order for it to snow, there must be humidity in the air.

In order for humidity to be in the air, there must be evaporation.

Andin order for there to be evaporation in an oxyger rich enviroment at 1 standard G (both of which Hoth has), there has to be an area of the planet that experiences ABOVE FREEZING TEMPERATURES.

Its called the weather cycle.


And as a side not, in order for there to be any snow on the ground, it had to start in the air.

[The Romulan Republic]

Just to throw in my 2 cents here, but in think i can prove Hoth must have a temperate zone. And it all has to do with snow. Not the snow on the ground, but the snow falling from the sky.

In order for it to snow, there must be humidity in the air.

In order for humidity to be in the air, there must be evaporation.

Andin order for there to be evaporation in an oxyger rich enviroment at 1 standard G (both of which Hoth has), there has to be an area of the planet that experiences ABOVE FREEZING TEMPERATURES.

Its called the weather cycle.


And as a side not, in order for there to be any snow on the ground, it had to start in the air.

If you're referring to snow falling in the on-screen visuals (can't recall much detail as I haven't watched TESB in a while), then couldn't that just be snow getting blown around by the wind?

[open_sketchbook]

Real world physics aside, we know that Hoth is an icy world (canon information says it frozen all over) and we know that their are large creatures on it. This might be a point where we have to step aside and say "George Lucas did it." as we remember we're talking about a piece of 1970s Science Fiction (one that has mystical psychic monks at that), and accept the cave lichen thing, because beyond that lies the realm of pure bullshit speculation with absolutely no base in canon.

[Knife]

Real world physics aside, we know that Hoth is an icy world (canon information says it frozen all over) and we know that their are large creatures on it. This might be a point where we have to step aside and say "George Lucas did it." as we remember we're talking about a piece of 1970s Science Fiction (one that has mystical psychic monks at that), and accept the cave lichen thing, because beyond that lies the realm of pure bullshit speculation with absolutely no base in canon.

or we say, 'frozen all over' as hyperbole and assume the mean temperatures are just a lot lower than earth's.

[Coyote]

How likely could it be that there is geothermal heat far underneath the ice? Go down further enough and you have lichens, planktons, mosses and fungi that can thrive in the deeper caves, and the oxygen they produce vents out eventually to provide just enough atmosphere to keep larger critters alive?

Sort of a land-based version of the "thermal vent theory" regarding the deepest cracks of our own sea floors...

[Ender]

Real world physics aside, we know that Hoth is an icy world (canon information says it frozen all over) and we know that their are large creatures on it. This might be a point where we have to step aside and say "George Lucas did it." as we remember we're talking about a piece of 1970s Science Fiction (one that has mystical psychic monks at that), and accept the cave lichen thing, because beyond that lies the realm of pure bullshit speculation with absolutely no base in canon.

Canon information also states seasons are not caused by axial tilt of the planet but by local gods, such as the god of summer who wears a Hawaiian shirt and talks like a California surfer from the 1980's. Care to try again?

[Junghalli]

Not to mention that the whole planet cannot be that cold- after all, they are near the parent star and it is a normal star.

Snowball Earth. It seems to have happened to our own planet in the past, so I'd say it looks quite plausible. There's more to climate than just the amount of light you get from the sun.

As for the ecology, how about if Hoth is more like Europa? The planet is covered by an icy crust, but the oceans are still liquid underneath. If the crust was thin enough in places you might get land animals that manage to survive by catching fish through holes in the ice, and that could be the base of a limited terrestrial food chain in coastal areas. The polar bear type thing Luke tangled with is probably something that eats the fish-eaters and the top of the food chain. They might be the last survivors of an ancient terrestrial ecosystem that existed millions of years ago, when Hoth might have been more Earthlike (before its present snowball era). As for the Tauntauns, they could be imports (SW equivalent of sled dogs), or for that matter do we have any hard evidence from the movies that they're herbivores? The big problem in my mind is photosynthesis. One possibility I can think of is that much of the oceanic ice is actually very thin, only a few inches thick; thin enough that enough light gets through for photosynthetic plankton to survive. Alternately, maybe Hoth's snowball state only got started quite recently: a few hundred or thousand years ago it was much more Earthlike, and the oxygen hasn't had time to be removed from the atmosphere yet.

Edit: now I'm getting mental images of Hoth ice-beasts with big claws they use to break open the sea ice, and then they stand over the holes waiting for something to swim by so they can spear it. I like trying to make broken things make sense, it can be fun in unexpected ways.