Which world has the best medicine and life expectancy

[Darth Wong]

There are other reasons to conclude that there are souls in Star Trek. Like the incident with Picard being transported into a cloud.

[Batman]

I'm reasonably certain I said so? I was merely saying that just because telepathy/empathy exists doesn't mean 'souls' need to.

[Junghalli]

And then you have that "Skin of Evil" thing, or i think that was the title, where the people of the planet actually took the "evil" part of their souls out and left it behind like you would throw out the trash. An exorcism of sorts.

Personally I'm inclined to write Armis's origin story up as nothing more than delusional ravings. It's just so fucking stupid. "They literally sweated out all their evil, and it made me!" Armis was obviously completely insane, so I don't see any reason to take his absurd explanation of his origins at face value.

[18-Till-I-Die]

The thing is, energy beings are entirely common place in the ST universe. So really there is no reason NOT to believe it as we've seen energy beings before...dozens of times. Traveler, the thing from Encounter at Farpoint, Q, the Douwd, et al.

It's stupid sounding but it's hardly existing in a vacuum.

[Bounty]

It's stupid sounding but it's hardly existing in a vacuum.

Considering that Armis wasn't an energy being and 'evil' does not have a chemical make-up as far as I know, I'm inclined to agree with Junghalli - it's some sort of sentient creature that went completely mad. It's not like delusions of absolute evil are all that uncommon in mental illness.

As for souls, I agree with the idea on principle, in that in Trekverse it is possible to sustain a person's mind - his personality, memories and in some cases active consciousness - independently of his original body. Calling this a "soul", however, throws up all sorts of unfortunate religious connotations that are perhaps better avoided. These "minds" are not immortal and not supernatural from Trekverse's point of view, as they can be measured and manipulated; they are, no matter how ridiculous it sounds, a rational part of Trekverse biology and not a metaphysical concept.

[Starglider]

That blob of energy can move around, possess objects or people, take control of computers (as we saw way back in the TOS episode "Wolf in the Fold"),

The entity in 'Wolf in the Fold' was some kind of energy-based alien lifeform that possessed humans (and the Enterprise computer...). It was not implied to be a human 'soul' of any kind, in fact it had to suppress the body's natural mind.

but it can't really be treated as data.

Possible counterexample: DS9 'Our Man Bashir'. Due to a runabout blowing up during the middle of transport, the 'transporter patterns' of four crew members get written to the station's computer memory (all of it, which knocks out most systems and causes bizarre holosuite malfunctions). As I recall the dialogue was a bit fuzzy but semmed to imply that the holosuite computer was storing the physical pattern of the body (something about 'actively processing' the matter streams?) and the rest of the station's computers were storing their brain state. Of course after a few hours of jury rigging the crew managed to download the patterns from the computers & holosuite back into the transporter, and this worked perfectly first time, no subtle biochemistry issues or mental problems.

This does seem to imply that you can replicate human beings from stored patterns, not just make instantaneous transporter-clones, but it takes a lot more computer memory than replicating a salad (a fair chunk of a ship's capacity per person). However I would not be surprised if the Federation classified that incident to the hilt on 'ethical' grounds.

[Bounty]

As I recall the dialogue was a bit fuzzy but semmed to imply that the holosuite computer was storing the physical pattern of the body (something about 'actively processing' the matter streams?) and the rest of the station's computers were storing their brain state.

It was the other way around: the data of their bodies was stored throughout bits and pieces of RAM all around the station, but only the holosuite's computers had enough memory to store their minds. It was stated that the data of transported individuals 'decays' extremely fast in the buffer and takes inordinate amounts of memory space to store even semi-permanently.

(Incidentally, analysis of the transport buffer might make for a very interesting thread. I've got a few ideas on transportation that I might bounce off some people in the near future...)

Store, mind you, not run. The transportees weren't conscious and there is no indication that their minds were at any point processed by the computer systems, they simply held this data in the same format as the transporter buffer stored it; as a real-world analogy, it would like a PC storing a Mac archive format. The situation isn't really comparable to an active consciousness possessing a computer system.

[Swindle1984]

Boba Fett is at least in his seventies, suffered from cancer, sterility, and other health problems because of his time in the sarlacc pit, and was STILL physically active in his role as a bounty hunter prior to receiving the expensive medical treatment he needed. At one point, he had his lower leg amputated and replaced with a cybernetic limb (like Luke's) before getting a clone replacement.

Captain Pike suffered massive radiation exposure and was restricted to a wheelchair that beeped and had a light that lit up when he wanted to communicate. General Grievous lost his entire body in a crash, was reduced to a head and organ sack, and had a full body prosthetic that was capable of taking on beings equipped with telekinesis and precognition in combat.

Qorl, the TIE pilot who crashed on Yavin IV, received a crude prosthetic arm. Despite the limitations of the human body it was attached to, he used that arm to fling a spear so hard that it physically hurled a man in stormtrooper armor and slammed him into a wall hard enough to make him lose conciousness.

[Junghalli]

What I'm wondering is what we are to make of the Trek "innoculate against radiation" thing from FC. The only way I can think of that could be done is nanotech rapidly repairing the DNA and protein damage as it happened.

[Terralthra]

What I'm wondering is what we are to make of the Trek "innoculate against radiation" thing from FC. The only way I can think of that could be done is nanotech rapidly repairing the DNA and protein damage as it happened.

Something like an extremely effective version of this?

[Darth Wong]

What I'm wondering is what we are to make of the Trek "innoculate against radiation" thing from FC. The only way I can think of that could be done is nanotech rapidly repairing the DNA and protein damage as it happened.

If they had nanotech that sophisticated, they should be able to innoculate against the Borg too.

[Starglider]

Store, mind you, not run. The transportees weren't conscious and there is no indication that their minds were at any point processed by the computer systems, they simply held this data in the same format as the transporter buffer stored it; as a real-world analogy, it would like a PC storing a Mac archive format. The situation isn't really comparable to an active consciousness possessing a computer system.

The mere fact that they could be stored as binary data indicates that humans do not have mysterious empheral souls in Trek. Unless you believe that the crew's souls were invisibly loitering around the station during the time their bodies did not exist and were magically reattached when the crew were recreated!

[Darth Wong]

Store, mind you, not run. The transportees weren't conscious and there is no indication that their minds were at any point processed by the computer systems, they simply held this data in the same format as the transporter buffer stored it; as a real-world analogy, it would like a PC storing a Mac archive format. The situation isn't really comparable to an active consciousness possessing a computer system.

The mere fact that they could be stored as binary data indicates that humans do not have mysterious empheral souls in Trek. Unless you believe that the crew's souls were invisibly loitering around the station during the time their bodies did not exist and were magically reattached when the crew were recreated!

If humans do not have mysterious ephemeral souls in Star Trek, how do you explain what happened to Picard in the cloud? His body was dematerialized into a cloud, and yet Troi could still feel him thinking and emoting.

[Starglider]

If humans do not have mysterious ephemeral souls in Star Trek, how do you explain what happened to Picard in the cloud? His body was dematerialized into a cloud, and yet Troi could still feel him thinking and emoting.

I assume you mean 'TNG: Lonely Among Us'. Here's what happened in that episode; the Enterprise flies past a swirly space anomaly, it picks up an 'energy alien' of some kind, that alien possesses a number of humans and the ship's computer, moving from body to body. Eventually it possesses Picard, declares that he 'wants the same things I want and can get them better as an incorporeal being', and beams Picard's body into the cloud. Enterprise sits there scanning for a while but finds nothing despite Troi feeling goose bumps. Eventually something possesses a bridge console and makes a 'P' appear on the display. Data declares that Picard's consciousness is possessing the computer, and that he is going to activate the transporter and hope that Picard manages to make a new body for himself using what's left in the pattern buffer. Of course this works fine.

Clearly what actually happened is that the incorporeal energy alien actively turned Picard into an entity similar to himself during the initial dematerialisation. This was presumably only possible in the bizarre space anomaly. Cloning Picard from the transporter buffer under normal circumstances probably* would've produced a vegetable, but in this case energy-alien-Picard was able to download itself back into the brain. Alternatively it's amusing to think that Picard was actually a mindless clone possessed by an energy entity for the rest of his life, and no-one noticed.

* I say probably because although I wouldn't put it past the Federation to ruthlessly suppress the fact that the transporter actually works as a pretty hassle-free person-cloning device, if it did I'd expect someone else (e.g. the Romulans, Dominion) to eventually take advantage of that.

[Bounty]

The mere fact that they could be stored as binary data indicates that humans do not have mysterious empheral souls in Trek. Unless you believe that the crew's souls were invisibly loitering around the station during the time their bodies did not exist and were magically reattached when the crew were recreated!

As I said above, I don't believe they have ephemeral 'souls', and I fully accept a consciousness in Trekverse can be stored as binary data. What I take exception to is the conclusion that simply because this data can be stored it can also be read and run; you used Our Man Bashir as a possible example of brain uploading, I am trying to point out that it offers an example of storage at best and not of a mind being uploaded to a machine and continuing to function and interact with its environment.

[Starglider]

What I take exception to is the conclusion that simply because this data can be stored it can also be read and run; you used Our Man Bashir as a possible example of brain uploading,

No, I was only using it as a counterexample to DW's claim;

Let's face it though: in Star Trek, there is an intangible "soul", which is treated as a blob of energy.

There are 'energy aliens' that act like this, but normal biological sentients do not have one.

I am trying to point out that it offers an example of storage at best and not of a mind being uploaded to a machine and continuing to function and interact with its environment

Certainly but as discussed there are examples of that in other episodes.

[Darth Wong]

Clearly what actually happened is that the incorporeal energy alien actively turned Picard into an entity similar to himself during the initial dematerialisation.

Oh yes. Clearly. We'll just arbitrarily assume that "energy aliens" have magical capabilities to turn thought processes in physical brains into ephemeral "energy" creatures which float around in clouds. Why not just call it magic and be done with it?

Your explanation does not actually explain anything; it invokes no less magic than simply admitting that the writers obviously think humans have souls. For that matter, the entire concept of the "energy creature" is pure metaphysics horseshit, and is nothing more than Star Trek's code-word for "soul".

[Bounty]

and is nothing more than Star Trek's code-word for "soul".

I'm with you up to the point where you actually call it a "soul", but I don't think most non-corporeal beings shown in Trek fit the definition of that word. A soul implies a lot of things - that it's a part of a living being that is somehow 'special', immortal, granted by a higher power, not something that fits in the normal understanding of the universe; all that "part of you is divine and super-special!!" bullcrap. Call something a soul and you're basically saying you can call off any attempt to reasonable explain the phenomenon, but that's not what usually happens in Trek (well, it does happen - Voyager loved to associate every other weird thing with Chakotay's generic-native-American fairytales). Their "energy creatures" are a silly idea but they're never treated as actually supernatural or associated with an overt religious explanation, just as bizarre but natural phenomena.

Am I just completely misreading the way you use the word "soul" here?

[Darth Wong]

Whoa, you're being way too Christian-oriented. You see souls in all kinds of fantasy genres; they refer to the magical glowy part of you which (presumably) survives physical death. That doesn't mean it necessarily has no rules which apply to it, or can't be harmed. In Mortal Kombat, wizards can take your soul and use it to enhance themselves. In Babylon 5, they can trap your soul in a little marble (seriously, there's an episode where they show this).

[Bounty]

Ah, okay. I thought you were going all Catholic there.

[Starglider]

Your explanation does not actually explain anything; it invokes no less magic than simply admitting that the writers obviously think humans have souls.

No, but it keeps the stupid confined to one episode, and that's good enough for me. Maybe I'm being sentimental here but I'd prefer not to write off the whole franchise as irretrievably unscientific, and declaring that beaming people into space always creates a 'soul' that can perceive things and possess people has far more damning implications than declaring it a one-episode anomaly.

For that matter, the entire concept of the "energy creature" is pure metaphysics horseshit, and is nothing more than Star Trek's code-word for "soul".

It is possible to rationalise energy creatures as relying on (major) extensions to real-world physics, which clearly exist in the ST universe for most of their technology to work. It isn't possible to rationalise people having 'souls', at least not ones that can possess people and generally interact with normal matter, if Trek humans are supposed to be identical to real humans, since we don't observe such things in real life.

In Babylon 5, they can trap your soul in a little marble (seriously, there's an episode where they show this).

Regrettably I do have to write off the whole B5 franchise as being irretrievably unscientific. But that's ok, it was supposed to be 'high fantasy in space', Trek wasn't.

[Bounty]

I prefer to see the incidents of people's consciousness getting loose as simply being a person's normal brain functions running on other hardware; even if that hardware takes the form of a so-called "energy being". I wouldn't know if or how this would work in practice but at least it allows some limits to be established.

[Starglider]

I prefer to see the incidents of people's consciousness getting loose as simply being a person's normal brain functions running on other hardware; even if that hardware takes the form of a so-called "energy being". I wouldn't know if or how this would work in practice but at least it allows some limits to be established.

Definitely, otherwise Trekkies will have a new VS tactic; beam 10,000 ensigns into space and then have them use their disembodied consciousness to possess the invading star destroyer's captains and/or computers.

[Samuel]

What I'm wondering is what we are to make of the Trek "innoculate against radiation" thing from FC. The only way I can think of that could be done is nanotech rapidly repairing the DNA and protein damage as it happened.

If they had nanotech that sophisticated, they should be able to innoculate against the Borg too.

Don't they do that in Voyager? I remember them having nanobots that slow down the assimilation process.

[Bounty]

Don't they do that in Voyager? I remember them having nanobots that slow down the assimilation process.

The one with Janeway going on holiday in a Borg Cube? That procedure just allowed the crew to remain conscious.