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- Metrion Cascade
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It's canon that the statement was made. But Riker could have been wrong, just as Spock could have been wrong about the Doomsday Machine's neutronium hull. And we still don't have a delivery time for those 2.1 MJ (per second? nanosecond? week?) even if Riker was correct.Howedar wrote:Hardly believable? Its fucking canon.
You don't get to arbitrarily decide what is and what is not canon based on your own personal preferences.
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It's not relevant to any part of the discussion, but this is assuming it's within the shield's operational lifetime and with scheduled maintenance. Another way to put it: any amount of energy can probably damage the shield if it's delivered faster than the shield can transfer it to ship's service EPS.Darth Servo wrote:Back up this statement. Heres a hint: think, "wear and tear"Metrion Cascade wrote:A shield can absorb any amount of energy given enough time.
Maybe I wasn't entirely clear.Metrion Cascade wrote:It's canon that the statement was made. But Riker could have been wrong, just as Spock could have been wrong about the Doomsday Machine's neutronium hull. And we still don't have a delivery time for those 2.1 MJ (per second? nanosecond? week?) even if Riker was correct.
IT'S FUCKING CANON
You're going to need to do a lot better than say "he could have been wrong."
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It's also canon that Picard said the E-D was immune to lasers. The statement is canon. Its validity is not. Riker could have been wrong. And even if he was right, the 2.1 MJ figure says nothing about weapon power without a timeframe. I will not address this again.Howedar wrote:Maybe I wasn't entirely clear.Metrion Cascade wrote:It's canon that the statement was made. But Riker could have been wrong, just as Spock could have been wrong about the Doomsday Machine's neutronium hull. And we still don't have a delivery time for those 2.1 MJ (per second? nanosecond? week?) even if Riker was correct.
IT'S FUCKING CANON
You're going to need to do a lot better than say "he could have been wrong."
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Actually its not. The actual quote is "Lasers won't even penetrate our Navagational deflectors"Metrion Cascade wrote:It's also canon that Picard said the E-D was immune to lasers. The statement is canon.
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The statement is also qualified by this one:Metrion Cascade wrote:It's also canon that Picard said the E-D was immune to lasers. The statement is canon.
http://www.holonet.iwarp.com/okona2.mov
TNG's "The Outrageous Okona":
PICARD: "No. They could fire 'till their lasers ran dry; they wouldn't hurt the Enterprise.
Bullshit. You're being dishonest.Its validity is not.
Riker could have been wrong.
Riker didn't make either statement.
Because you are intentionally ducking the issue. The quotes from "The Outrageous Okona" and "Conundrums" are married. In "TOO", the lasers were ridiculously underpowered. LESS than 2.1 MJ. However, the "fusion powered pulse lasers" rated at 2.1 MJ in "Conundrums" is enough to not only rock the ship, but convince Picard to raise shields. And not only raise them, but set them to MAXIMUM.And even if he was right, the 2.1 MJ figure says nothing about weapon power without a timeframe. I will not address this again.
http://www.holonet.iwarp.com/conun1.mov
TNG's "Conundrums":
DATA: "The destroyer has minimal shields. Their disruptor capacity appears to be only 2.1 megajoules."
RIKER: "They're no match for the Enterprise.."
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One possible interpretation of that statement is invalid. An intelligent interpretation works fine; ships of that size using Alpha Quadrant technology and armed only with lasers were no threat. A ship of that size would only be a threat if it was packing photon torpedoes.Metrion Cascade wrote:It's also canon that Picard said the E-D was immune to lasers. The statement is canon. Its validity is not.
The timeframe is observable onscreen.Riker could have been wrong. And even if he was right, the 2.1 MJ figure says nothing about weapon power without a timeframe. I will not address this again.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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I'm wondering why timeframe is being brought up at all - at best, the megajoules would be dealt with within an extremely short amount of time. (There's only so much that 2.1, 4.3 MJ can do, no matter how fast it's put in.) Throwing in longer timeframes makes it even more pathetic. (Would have it being delivered over a period of weeks really help?)
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She's probably assuming that an extremely short timeframe would jack up the power, without recognizing that the limits of the work it can do are always set by its energy level. Even a staggering amount of power won't accomplish jack shit if there's not enough energy.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Dammit, I didn't want to respond. I brought up timeframe because I figure that if it's 2.1MJ per nanosecond instead of per shot or per second (not specified), then a two-second discharge delivers 4.2 billion gigajoules.Darth Wong wrote:She's probably assuming that an extremely short timeframe would jack up the power, without recognizing that the limits of the work it can do are always set by its energy level. Even a staggering amount of power won't accomplish jack shit if there's not enough energy.
Of course, Data, the sensors, or the console he was reading could have been wrong about the number to start with.
No, it doesn't. It still only delivers 2.1 MJ. It might be equivlent to 4.2 billion gigawatts, but since Trek shields are steady state devices and not dissapation threshold devices, it doesn't make a damn bit of differenceMetrion Cascade wrote:Dammit, I didn't want to respond. I brought up timeframe because I figure that if it's 2.1MJ per nanosecond instead of per shot or per second (not specified), then a two-second discharge delivers 4.2 billion gigajoules.Darth Wong wrote:She's probably assuming that an extremely short timeframe would jack up the power, without recognizing that the limits of the work it can do are always set by its energy level. Even a staggering amount of power won't accomplish jack shit if there's not enough energy.
That would require quite a bit of ECM, something we do not typically observe among trek races. Further the ECM would be of a level far beyond the Federation's, and the whole point is that this race is well behind them technologically.Of course, Data, the sensors, or the console he was reading could have been wrong about the number to start with.
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Don't be ridiculous. Any time you specify that someone is firing 2.1MJ weapons at you, it is implicit that the yield is per shot. Why the fuck would they state the yield in such a manner that it has no relation at all to the shot? This is like saying that the stated yield of a bomb might be per microgram of reactant, so it's actually millions of times bigger.Metrion Cascade wrote:Dammit, I didn't want to respond. I brought up timeframe because I figure that if it's 2.1MJ per nanosecond instead of per shot or per second (not specified), then a two-second discharge delivers 4.2 billion gigajoules.Darth Wong wrote:She's probably assuming that an extremely short timeframe would jack up the power, without recognizing that the limits of the work it can do are always set by its energy level. Even a staggering amount of power won't accomplish jack shit if there's not enough energy.
I would have no problem with that, as long as people are consistent about it. Instead, Trek fans have a habit of regarding onscreen numbers as gospel when they're convenient (see "A Matter of Time") and disregarding them when they're inconvenient (see "Conundrum").Of course, Data, the sensors, or the console he was reading could have been wrong about the number to start with.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
I'm not buying it. If part of the part getting through is light, then we'd see that light going through the sizzle of the borg shields and getting to the drone itself. AFAIK, we've never seen such a thing.Metrion Cascade wrote:As I explained in the first part you quoted, the unphased portion is radiated as light and probably some heat. But it's not enough energy (and not sufficiently focused without the phased portion) to cause damage.
JADAFETWA
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That's absurd. We're talking about mechanics, not thermodynamics. My computer is stationary right now. Are you seriously going to tell me that it has a mechanical kinetic energy equal to its total internal energy?Metrion Cascade wrote:Temperature (noun): the measure of the average molecular kinetic energy of a substance. A microscopic phenomenon with macroscopic effects.
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I didn't even bother answering that because anyone who quotes dictionary definitions on a matter of physics is obviously just sloshing around in ignorance. The proper thermodynamics definition of temperature is actually not the average molecular kinetic energy anyway.Durandal wrote:That's absurd. We're talking about mechanics, not thermodynamics. My computer is stationary right now. Are you seriously going to tell me that it has a mechanical kinetic energy equal to its total internal energy?Metrion Cascade wrote:Temperature (noun): the measure of the average molecular kinetic energy of a substance. A microscopic phenomenon with macroscopic effects.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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It's almost funny to think about the consequences of such a relationship. According to her, an object must start zipping along if you apply enough heat to it. Better watch out next time you put those leftovers in the microwave; they might achieve escape velocity.Darth Wong wrote:I didn't even bother answering that because anyone who quotes dictionary definitions on a matter of physics is obviously just sloshing around in ignorance. The proper thermodynamics definition of temperature is actually not the average molecular kinetic energy anyway.
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"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
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"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
Really? I was taught in my thermodynamics class that it was the average random molecular kinetic energy of a substance. That exact definition too.Darth Wong wrote:I didn't even bother answering that because anyone who quotes dictionary definitions on a matter of physics is obviously just sloshing around in ignorance. The proper thermodynamics definition of temperature is actually not the average molecular kinetic energy anyway.Durandal wrote:That's absurd. We're talking about mechanics, not thermodynamics. My computer is stationary right now. Are you seriously going to tell me that it has a mechanical kinetic energy equal to its total internal energy?Metrion Cascade wrote:Temperature (noun): the measure of the average molecular kinetic energy of a substance. A microscopic phenomenon with macroscopic effects.
بيرني كان سيفوز
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Nuclear Navy Warwolf
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
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Try figuring out the temperature of a black hole with that definition.Ender wrote:Really? I was taught in my thermodynamics class that it was the average random molecular kinetic energy of a substance. That exact definition too.
The proper thermodynamics definition of temperature is the point at which thermal equilibrium is achieved, as determined by maximizing entropy with respect to energy. T=1/(dS/dU) where S is entropy and U is total internal energy.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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That's the definition they teach in lower-level courses, because I got the same thing. Temperature is more of an indicator which tells heat where to flow.Ender wrote:Really? I was taught in my thermodynamics class that it was the average random molecular kinetic energy of a substance. That exact definition too.
Damien Sorresso
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
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But we've seen that many weapons fire beams that don't have a set duration - Sovereign class phasers, Lt. Reed's 10 MJ phase pistol, etc. If I were TPTB, I might use joules for pulse weapons, but not for beam weapons. If there's no set timeframe within which certain weapons deliver their stated energy output, how do we determine their power and demonstrate that the energy isn't being delivered at a nice leisurely pace? I'm not sure the 2.1 MJ weapon is an example of this (maybe it was a pulse weapon, I don't recall), but what about the phase pistol or Sovereign class phasers?Darth Wong wrote:Don't be ridiculous. Any time you specify that someone is firing 2.1MJ weapons at you, it is implicit that the yield is per shot. Why the fuck would they state the yield in such a manner that it has no relation at all to the shot? This is like saying that the stated yield of a bomb might be per microgram of reactant, so it's actually millions of times bigger.Metrion Cascade wrote:Dammit, I didn't want to respond. I brought up timeframe because I figure that if it's 2.1MJ per nanosecond instead of per shot or per second (not specified), then a two-second discharge delivers 4.2 billion gigajoules.Darth Wong wrote:She's probably assuming that an extremely short timeframe would jack up the power, without recognizing that the limits of the work it can do are always set by its energy level. Even a staggering amount of power won't accomplish jack shit if there's not enough energy.
What number would that be (from "A Matter of Time")? Just curious...I would have no problem with that, as long as people are consistent about it. Instead, Trek fans have a habit of regarding onscreen numbers as gospel when they're convenient (see "A Matter of Time") and disregarding them when they're inconvenient (see "Conundrum").Of course, Data, the sensors, or the console he was reading could have been wrong about the number to start with.
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I didn't say it gets through as a beam or that it's only light. I said it radiates (most likely in every direction) as light (which we see) and probably heat (which we can't even if it's there), because the phased portion is what keeps it in beam form. I also think that at higher settings, the unphased portion is a small part of the beam's total energy.Kuja wrote:I'm not buying it. If part of the part getting through is light, then we'd see that light going through the sizzle of the borg shields and getting to the drone itself. AFAIK, we've never seen such a thing.Metrion Cascade wrote:As I explained in the first part you quoted, the unphased portion is radiated as light and probably some heat. But it's not enough energy (and not sufficiently focused without the phased portion) to cause damage.
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I brought up the light - molecular KE conversion as a real-world example of radiant energy becoming kinetic energy on contact with matter. I'm not saying anything in real life does this on any seriously macroscopic level, but that some fictional massless particle in phasers does.Durandal wrote:That's absurd. We're talking about mechanics, not thermodynamics. My computer is stationary right now. Are you seriously going to tell me that it has a mechanical kinetic energy equal to its total internal energy?Metrion Cascade wrote:Temperature (noun): the measure of the average molecular kinetic energy of a substance. A microscopic phenomenon with macroscopic effects.