A couple questions

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Re: A couple questions

Post by Batman »

Batman wrote: As for how much less powerful widebeam would be compared to standard phaser fire, assuming a 30° arc (nevermind a cone) and a beam diameter of 1cm for your typical phaser beam, at a range of 5 metres the intensity of the beam would drop to less than a 65,000th of a standard phaser shot.
Ghetto edit: No do math in wee hours of morning.You want the CIRCUMFERENCE of the circle, not the area. :oops: So at a 30° arc at 5m you get 1/262th of the intensity, which is a hell of a lot less impressive (but should actually be supported by math this time) which is still ample to show how widebeam (and we're still talking PLANAR widebeam here) is either a hell lot lower energy density or more energy costly than a standard beam.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Stark »

I don't think Jedi are 'invulnerable' to stun attacks, simply 'resistant'. I have no idea if a heavy stun shot would put down a Jedi or how many would be required... but it's kinda moot since it's unlikely to work first time on widebeam and the Jedi will just take the enemy's phasers away anyway.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Stark wrote:I don't think Jedi are 'invulnerable' to stun attacks, simply 'resistant'. I have no idea if a heavy stun shot would put down a Jedi or how many would be required... but it's kinda moot since it's unlikely to work first time on widebeam and the Jedi will just take the enemy's phasers away anyway.
Or just dodge. Maybe some weaker Jedi could go down, but someone like Yoda would just leap over the wide beam shot, jump behind the Federation guy on the other end, and dice him. Or throw a light saber through him like he did to that Clonetrooper. A lot of guys with phasers could bring a powerful Jedi down, but that's the same as with Clonetroopers. Enough numbers and anyone goes down.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Swindle1984 »

Considering Picard easily dodged a phaser beam by awkwardly sidestepping and a big-eared troll dodged another phaser beam from a distance of ten feet by bending at the waist, I'm thinking it won't be particularly difficult for a Jedi to avoid getting tagged by phaser fire, regardless of whether or not he's deflecting shots with his lightsaber.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Kythnos »

Swindle1984 wrote:Considering Picard easily dodged a phaser beam by awkwardly sidestepping and a big-eared troll dodged another phaser beam from a distance of ten feet by bending at the waist, I'm thinking it won't be particularly difficult for a Jedi to avoid getting tagged by phaser fire, regardless of whether or not he's deflecting shots with his lightsaber.
I am not sure which episodes/scenes you are talking about but it is far more likely that they did not "dodge" the attack as they where moving or going to move before the attack, and that caused it to miss. I could be wrong but I thought Phasers are a speed of light weapon? (at least Trek insists they are)
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Captain Seafort »

The first was season 1 "Conspiracy", the second was season 6 "Rascals". In both cases the phaser was aimed, fired, and the target moved in reaction to that. It's possible that they moved in response to having the weapon aimed at them, rather than the beam itself, but the end result was the same - the shots missed.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Peptuck »

Kythnos wrote:
Swindle1984 wrote:Considering Picard easily dodged a phaser beam by awkwardly sidestepping and a big-eared troll dodged another phaser beam from a distance of ten feet by bending at the waist, I'm thinking it won't be particularly difficult for a Jedi to avoid getting tagged by phaser fire, regardless of whether or not he's deflecting shots with his lightsaber.
I am not sure which episodes/scenes you are talking about but it is far more likely that they did not "dodge" the attack as they where moving or going to move before the attack, and that caused it to miss. I could be wrong but I thought Phasers are a speed of light weapon? (at least Trek insists they are)
Multiple instances of characters dodging phaser beams after they've been fired are visible here. Especially noticable at 1:39-1:50. There's also a borderline instance at 0:35-0:36.

And its quite clear that they aren't speed-of-light weapons just by watching how they move.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Cri_Havoc »

I think some people might write off the wide beam setting a bit quickly. Sure, we've seen the phaser stun a large group of people at close range, but we seem to jump rather quickly to assuming that is the limit of it's ability. If a large group of people are at close range (and you don't have the stomach for killing them all), of course you would use a very wide dispersal stun setting. But, if you want to hit two people at some distance with one beam, then you'd use a relatively narrow dispersal setting, such that at the distance you are aiming, it's of an appropriate size. Obviously I'm not suggesting that a trooper constantly readjust the settings on the fly, I'm just saying it's a rather rash leap to assume that any sort of wide beam would be relatively useless. Heck, even with today's technology, it's not a stretch to make a laser sight that takes the distance that you're pointing at, and does the quick trig necessary to have your beam be 0.5m circle at that distance. Even if you're going to go down to 1% of your original power (heck, .1%), that's a beam that at it's normal setting can vaporize an entire body, so it's gonna leave a mark, methinks.

Still not sure that it's as good as a blaster. Oh, and my memory is fuzzy, but I do think I remember a book where Luke was stunned, but he actually recalls that there are Jedi techniques for shrugging off things like that, they just take a moment of preparation and he was caught off guard (tsk tsk.) I always did wonder why people don't just shoot something with a bit wider beam at a jedi.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Batman »

*sigh* 1m wide beam so you can hit two people standing directly side by side, 1% intensity of a standard beam. Circular widebeam, slightly more than 1/8,000th the intensity of a standard beam. 2 guys standing 2m apart, 3m wide beam, 1/3rd of a percent (planar)/less then 1/70,000th(circular, always assuming standard beam is 1 cm diameter).
And since hand phasers have yet to vapourize anything, no, I don't really think that's enough of a punch to leave much of a mark.
Especially as phasers work on some funky chain reaction and the above calculations assume the effect falls linearly with the loss of intensity. It might be much worse than that if that chain reaction doesn't even start until a certain threshold is crossed.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Cri_Havoc »

*sigh* I was just trying to point out that calculations CAN be based off a different dispersal angle. Mainly so you can start throwing somewhat wider beams at Jedi's without just giving everyone in the room a slight sun tan. Not saying that 2m wide beams should be a standard. And just how wide of a beam could a lightsaber reasonably block?

And I thought hand phasers have vaporized plenty of things? I always remembered TOS, lots of people hit by phasers tended to simply disappear. I THINK it happened in that ancient Rome episode, and I'm almost positive it happened in one of the movies (the dude that gets a slug in his ear along with Chekov, he vaporizes himself, no?). And I think Riker vaporized some lady after giving her a few shots that failed to bring her down, but my memory of that one is rather vague. Help, anyone? I swear I remember phasers making things dissappear!

I don't know if I want to start a slightly different topic, but I've just been surprised that I never saw it used again: In TOS when the team beams down to a Chicago-esque mob-run planet, the enterprise actually stuns a whole crowd of people on the ground. Is anyone else confused as to why nobody ever did this again? The usefulness (and the accuracy demonstrated) was pretty fun!

I'm going to try to find the episode/s where the phaser is used on a wide dispersal pattern, I'm sort of conjecturing a little blindly. Will also see about phaser intensity falling off with distance, surely there must be some information on that as well.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Ted C »

Cri_Havoc wrote:*sigh* I was just trying to point out that calculations CAN be based off a different dispersal angle. Mainly so you can start throwing somewhat wider beams at Jedi's without just giving everyone in the room a slight sun tan. Not saying that 2m wide beams should be a standard. And just how wide of a beam could a lightsaber reasonably block?
Bats was just pointing out that even if you adjust the beam so that it's a 1-meter-wide flat spread when it reaches the target, you've still drastically reduced the amount of energy that will actually hit the target. Any degree of dispersal will pretty rapidly reduce the intensity of the beam at range.
Cri_Havoc wrote:And I thought hand phasers have vaporized plenty of things? I always remembered TOS, lots of people hit by phasers tended to simply disappear.
That's just it. Phasers make people disappear, they do not make people turn into vapor. If people were actually vaporized, there would be an explosion of superheated steam where the person was standing.
Cri_Havoc wrote:I don't know if I want to start a slightly different topic, but I've just been surprised that I never saw it used again: In TOS when the team beams down to a Chicago-esque mob-run planet, the enterprise actually stuns a whole crowd of people on the ground. Is anyone else confused as to why nobody ever did this again? The usefulness (and the accuracy demonstrated) was pretty fun!
Such an attack requires an orbiting starship that essentially has uncontested control of the space above the planet. It probably also requires that the target area on the surface be unshielded. Not many war situations like that, actually.
Cri_Havoc wrote:I'm going to try to find the episode/s where the phaser is used on a wide dispersal pattern, I'm sort of conjecturing a little blindly. Will also see about phaser intensity falling off with distance, surely there must be some information on that as well.
Voyager "Cathexis" is the episode, I think. You also see a phaser spread used in TOS "Wink of an Eye".
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Formless »

Will also see about phaser intensity falling off with distance, surely there must be some information on that as well.
Doesn't the fact that we never see them use hand phasers beyond a certain range evidence of this? And besides, if the beam is constantly giving off light as it travels to the target, even when fired in the vacuum of space, doesn't that mean that it is constantly losing energy to that conversion of useful energy to light?
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Cri_Havoc »

Doesn't the fact that we never see them use hand phasers beyond a certain range evidence of this? And besides, if the beam is constantly giving off light as it travels to the target, even when fired in the vacuum of space, doesn't that mean that it is constantly losing energy to that conversion of useful energy to light?
Wellll, I wouldn't exactly use that argument. A weapon that is supposed to have quite a bit of energy in that beam surely wouldn't be losing THAT much giving off the same energy as a fluorescent lightbulb. And I'd think that you don't see hand phasers used outside of a certain range has more to do with the hand than the phaser (read: a person's aim). Have they ever actually said "they're out of our hand phaser range" before? I don't recall.
Bats was just pointing out that even if you adjust the beam so that it's a 1-meter-wide flat spread when it reaches the target, you've still drastically reduced the amount of energy that will actually hit the target. Any degree of dispersal will pretty rapidly reduce the intensity of the beam at range.
Yes, yes, and I agree that you're definitely dispersing the energy over an area (please note, that doesn't actually lessen the energy carried by the beam), I'm just saying that we could vary the angle differently. Say, hypothetically, that a lightsaber can't block a beam more than 9 inches in diameter. That's still a size that you could hit a person with the full beam (and thereby, not actually lose any of the energy), and get around that pesky lightsaber-blocking issue. As to the power...
That's just it. Phasers make people disappear, they do not make people turn into vapor. If people were actually vaporized, there would be an explosion of superheated steam where the person was standing.
That would be a little like saying that just because Aldaraan wound up in chunks, the Death Star didn't necessarily have all the energy to blow it up, it just made it fall apart. Really, I would imagine that making people 'disappear' would probably take more energy than having them outright disappear (how much power DOES a transporter use, anyways?), but really, can't we just see that it's a lot of energy? I seem to remember that draining a couple of those power cells can launch a shuttlecraft into a low orbit, and that you don't get a lot of shots at full power. Why don't you think these levels of energy sound unhealthy when applied to the skin?
Such an attack requires an orbiting starship that essentially has uncontested control of the space above the planet. It probably also requires that the target area on the surface be unshielded. Not many war situations like that, actually.
Why all the restrictions (well, aside from the unshielded surface, which I'm guessing in ground wars actually comes up quite often, actually). All you need is a ship to fly by quickly and take it's shot, no? Especially if you're not QUITE as concerned with accuracy (I mean, the ORIGINAL enterprise was able to hit guys outside of the door without Kirk and the boys being hit inside the building. Surely things have improved? And surely something similar should have been adapted for ground use? I think the original pilot had something of a portable phaser bank, though I don't remember if it was actually channeling the ship's power or not. But regardless, I'm just surprised it hasn't shown up again, seemed so gosh darned useful.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Ted C »

Cri_Havoc wrote:Yes, yes, and I agree that you're definitely dispersing the energy over an area (please note, that doesn't actually lessen the energy carried by the beam), I'm just saying that we could vary the angle differently. Say, hypothetically, that a lightsaber can't block a beam more than 9 inches in diameter. That's still a size that you could hit a person with the full beam (and thereby, not actually lose any of the energy), and get around that pesky lightsaber-blocking issue. As to the power...
OK, I see where you're going now. Assuming the "spreader" allows that fine an adjustment, it might work. Unfortunately, we don't know if the hand phaser allows such fine adjustments; we've only seen narrow beams and pretty broad spreads.
Cri_Havoc wrote:That would be a little like saying that just because Aldaraan wound up in chunks, the Death Star didn't necessarily have all the energy to blow it up, it just made it fall apart.
Don't be silly. We saw the explosion of Alderaan: we know there was a planet before and an asteroid field after. Observation tells us that it was the energy from the superlaser beam.

We know there is NOT an appropriate explosion when a human body disappears in a phaser event, so we know it is NOT a vaporization.
Cri_Havoc wrote:Really, I would imagine that making people 'disappear' would probably take more energy than having them outright disappear (how much power DOES a transporter use, anyways?), but really, can't we just see that it's a lot of energy?
No, we can't, because we don't know what's really going on. We can't say that it's a small amount of energy, but we can't say it's a large amount of energy either. It's essentially unquantifiable, so we have to look at other things phasers do to try to estimate their performance.
Cri_Havoc wrote:I seem to remember that draining a couple of those power cells can launch a shuttlecraft into a low orbit, and that you don't get a lot of shots at full power. Why don't you think these levels of energy sound unhealthy when applied to the skin?
It took almost a whole rack of hand phasers to boost a shuttle into an unstable orbit. The incident your describing (from TOS "The Gallileo Seven") suggests that a TOS hand phaser carries a few hundred megajoules of energy.

Reference

The closest estimate we have to a maximum rate of power output, though, is a reference to a powerpack drain rate of a little over a megawatt from TNG "The Mind's Eye" during a test, but given the efficiency of energy conversion described (86.5% standard), the waste energy from a phaser at that level of output would typically kill the user. There are also references to exotic particles like "nadions".

Reference
Cri_Havoc wrote:
Such an attack requires an orbiting starship that essentially has uncontested control of the space above the planet. It probably also requires that the target area on the surface be unshielded.
Why all the restrictions (well, aside from the unshielded surface, which I'm guessing in ground wars actually comes up quite often, actually). All you need is a ship to fly by quickly and take it's shot, no?
Providing ground support fire from orbit while under fire from an enemy starship is not going to be very practical. Your ship will be heading into a gravity well, which will reduce its maneuverability, you'll be divert fire from the enemy ship to your ground target, and you'll be moving in a predictable pattern to line up your shot. Basically, you're making an inviting target of yourself if you try to provide ground support while still engaged with hostile ships in space.
Cri_Havoc wrote:Especially if you're not QUITE as concerned with accuracy (I mean, the ORIGINAL enterprise was able to hit guys outside of the door without Kirk and the boys being hit inside the building.
The Enterprise was not threatened at all in orbit. It could casually fly in geosynchronous orbit over the target area to line up the shot.
Cri_Havoc wrote:Surely things have improved? And surely something similar should have been adapted for ground use? I think the original pilot had something of a portable phaser bank, though I don't remember if it was actually channeling the ship's power or not. But regardless, I'm just surprised it hasn't shown up again, seemed so gosh darned useful.
"The Cage"/"The Menagerie" had some kind of heavy weapon operated by broadcast power from the ship in orbit, according to the script. Again, the space above the planet is uncontested, so the ship can stay in geosynchronous orbit to transfer power.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Cri_Havoc »

Unfortunately, we don't know if the hand phaser allows such fine adjustments; we've only seen narrow beams and pretty broad spreads.
Now, I'm not suggesting your standard phaser can do that 'out of the box', so to speak, but with a few spare parts and some tinkering, does it really seem to be such a stretch to think that if you're going hunting for Jedi, you can't modify some phasers to generate a wider or slowly expanding beam? I know the shipboard phaser arrays have some fair control over the beam dispersal pattern, I think, I'm trying to remember anything with phasers. I think they have a narrower cutting beam, too. Just saying, if there's technology for wide, normal, and narrow beams, even if they don't normally come equipped with the ability to vary as you please, it wouldn't exactly be a breakthrough in Trek Science to whip it up.
Don't be silly. We saw the explosion of Alderaan: we know there was a planet before and an asteroid field after. Observation tells us that it was the energy from the superlaser beam.
I'll try to tread lightly here (I just did the same in a different thread, sort of.) Let me begin by saying, I DO currently believe that the Death Star imparted a tremendous amount of energy to blow up Alderaan. But I'm skeptical of how quickly people want to say 'what you see is what you get' in this and many other instances. You say that just because a person disappears, we can't assume whether it takes a lot of a little bit of energy to do so. By a similar token (an example that I used in the other thread), just because a nuclear bomb creates an enormous explosion doesn't mean you actually imparted all that energy into a fissionable material. By the same token, we can't actually assume that there isn't some 'hidden mechanism' at work which lets the Death Star blow up Alderaan without using quite so much energy. But I haven't seen any good theories to disprove it, so the Death Star I fear. :P But it just irks me when I feel that the rules are changed around sometimes between different arguments.

As to the amount of energy imparted in a phaser blast, I really feel it's trivialized by a lot of people because 'we don't have real measures' of their performance. I concede that, as far as I know right now, this is so. I'll puzzle on it a little bit, but seriously, given what we've seen a full-blast phaser do, being hit by something a few order of magnitude lower, I think, would still really hurt! (much less the full blast.) But I'll have to do some reading.
It took almost a whole rack of hand phasers to boost a shuttle into an unstable orbit. The incident your describing (from TOS "The Gallileo Seven") suggests that a TOS hand phaser carries a few hundred megajoules of energy.
I'll have to get back to you, I'm terrified to think that a phaser carries the same amount of energy as a couple litres of gasoline. That I'd have trouble believing.
Providing ground support fire from orbit while under fire from an enemy starship is not going to be very practical. Your ship will be heading into a gravity well, which will reduce its maneuverability, you'll be divert fire from the enemy ship to your ground target, and you'll be moving in a predictable pattern to line up your shot. Basically, you're making an inviting target of yourself if you try to provide ground support while still engaged with hostile ships in space.
We've ships fight in orbit of a planet, it doesn't seem that unusual (perhaps more difficult, but they never seem to think so.) I don't know about it seeming to reduce their maneuverability, it's never been mentioned that I recall? (I'm not talking about dropping into the atmosphere, of course.) As to moving in a 'predictable pattern to line up your shot', we're not dropping bombs here, you basically need 'line of sight' to fire a phaser, other than that you basically have your run of that side of the planet. Firing off a phaser shot or two doesn't seem beyond the realm of reason, even if there is a space battle going on as well, especially given the potential gains in the groundfighting. Again, not saying that it'd be easy, but it hardly seems infeasible. Plus, I'm more curious why it just NEVER showed up again, there surely have been plenty of opportunities when you're not waging a space battle at the same time.
Cri_Havoc wrote:
Especially if you're not QUITE as concerned with accuracy (I mean, the ORIGINAL enterprise was able to hit guys outside of the door without Kirk and the boys being hit inside the building.


The Enterprise was not threatened at all in orbit. It could casually fly in geosynchronous orbit over the target area to line up the shot.
Well, see above, but the fact that they had it real easy there is no proof at all that it can't be done under combat conditions.
"The Cage"/"The Menagerie" had some kind of heavy weapon operated by broadcast power from the ship in orbit, according to the script. Again, the space above the planet is uncontested, so the ship can stay in geosynchronous orbit to transfer power.
That does sound like a more complex operation (not as viable under combat conditions, I'd most likely concede), but they basically do have a portable phaser bank on the ground, it appears, I'm just surprised that these more powerful weapons (and the orbital stun-beam) never made appearances again.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Teleros »

That would be a little like saying that just because Aldaraan wound up in chunks, the Death Star didn't necessarily have all the energy to blow it up, it just made it fall apart. Really, I would imagine that making people 'disappear' would probably take more energy than having them outright disappear (how much power DOES a transporter use, anyways?), but really, can't we just see that it's a lot of energy? I seem to remember that draining a couple of those power cells can launch a shuttlecraft into a low orbit, and that you don't get a lot of shots at full power. Why don't you think these levels of energy sound unhealthy when applied to the skin?
The difference between the Death Star blowing up Alderaan and a phaser not vaporising someone is that we have all the evidence at hand for the former, and very little for the latter:

1. The Death Star shoots Alderaan.
2. The planet blows up.
3. To blow up, the pieces must overcome gravity etc etc etc, and the simplest means of doing this is to insert lots (and lots and lots) of energy into the planet.

However:

1. The phaser shoots someone.
2. The person glows and disappears.
3. About the only sign of vaporisation is a red-orange glow on the target, which you might expect on something being heated that quickly.
4. However, none of the other signs (shockwave, bits of the person, etc) occur - the effect is confined solely to the target, and nothing beyond it.
5. Thus, it's reasonable to assume that vaporisation isn't happening, but something else (some sort of disintegration) is. See the NDF theory for example.
6. Finally, because the phaser's mechanism is unknown, we cannot figure out the energy needed to make it happen from visuals - we need other information (eg Ted C's post).
You say that just because a person disappears, we can't assume whether it takes a lot of a little bit of energy to do so.
It would be quite wrong to assume either lots or little energy, because we don't know how it works. By comparison, the Death Star is much easier to work with, because the principles behind blowing up a planet are fairly well known, and don't require much more than a magic power source and a really efficient laser (nothing new there, given it's sci-fi).
given what we've seen a full-blast phaser do, being hit by something a few order of magnitude lower, I think, would still really hurt! (much less the full blast.) But I'll have to do some reading.
Another problem might be with the nature of the target: there's some evidence that Jedi can use the Force to protect themselves somewhat, which would explain why various Jedi can take so many shots from clone troopers in RotS without much apparent damage. I'm not saying a reduced power phaser shot would be useless, but it might be even less effective than one would expect against enemies like the Jedi.
I'm terrified to think that a phaser carries the same amount of energy as a couple litres of gasoline. That I'd have trouble believing.
As sci-fi handguns go it's nothing special ( :o ).
As to moving in a 'predictable pattern to line up your shot', we're not dropping bombs here, you basically need 'line of sight' to fire a phaser, other than that you basically have your run of that side of the planet.
The problem is one of accuracy. Your ship is moving, you need to analyse the terrain, avoid friendly ground forces, perhaps adjust for the atmosphere as well - and there's another warship trying to shoot you down as well (and if it's following you, what if it follows your example and starts hitting your troops in revenge?). If you've got human gunners then take into account stress and human error as well. You're right it's certainly easier than dropping bombs, but there are still plenty of issues to deal with.
I'm just surprised that these more powerful weapons (and the orbital stun-beam) never made appearances again.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Cri_Havoc »

The difference between the Death Star blowing up Alderaan and a phaser not vaporising someone is that we have all the evidence at hand for the former, and very little for the latter
Yes, granted, the effects of a phaser may lack what we would expect to see in a true vaporization, but you're still making a big leap in logic (albeit a generally forgivable one) when you're looking at other examples, like the death star.
It would be quite wrong to assume either lots or little energy, because we don't know how it works. By comparison, the Death Star is much easier to work with, because the principles behind blowing up a planet are fairly well known, and don't require much more than a magic power source and a really efficient laser (nothing new there, given it's sci-fi).
No, it is only by assuming the principle that the death star is using that makes the principle 'well known'. I refer again to a nuclear bomb: you don't actually impart enormous amounts of energy into a nuke to make it explode the way it does, you use a mechanism which allows you to impart some energy, which in turn can yield much larger amounts of energy. By the same token, then, we cannot assume that the explosion of Alderaan was the result of a direct energy transfer via the superlaser, to put it in your words, "we cannot figure out the energy needed to make it happen from the visuals", just like when I see a nuclear bomb explode, the energy required to create the explosion is not the energy required to trigger the explosion (and then the energy of the explosion goes on to cause the devestation we see, but again, the devestation is not caused by the energy I impart upon the bomb itself.) I agree, a phaser may quite likely work on rather different principles than direct energy transfer. But I don't like that people are willing to make the 'obvious leaps' in some cases and not in others. Again, though, in the case of the death star I do believe that it did use direct energy transfer, but for lack of a more reasonable explanation, not because that's just what I think I saw and understood. Even then, I do have questions which call it into doubt in my mind, but I'm still looking for the right thread for that debate.
Another problem might be with the nature of the target: there's some evidence that Jedi can use the Force to protect themselves somewhat, which would explain why various Jedi can take so many shots from clone troopers in RotS without much apparent damage. I'm not saying a reduced power phaser shot would be useless, but it might be even less effective than one would expect against enemies like the Jedi.
I can't look up clips from the clone wars/RotS right now, but relying on memory, blaster shots really seemed to do the same thing to a jedi that they did to anyone else? I've no doubt that Jedi can work through a lot of pain and more damage than a normal person, though, and that it takes quite a bit to bring one down, I'm just curious about their ability to 'protect themselves'. The stun setting, I'll pretty much take as truth that they would be more resistant, as we've certainly heard of examples.
Quote:
I'm terrified to think that a phaser carries the same amount of energy as a couple litres of gasoline. That I'd have trouble believing.

As sci-fi handguns go it's nothing special ( ).
I'm sorry, I don't think I communicated very well there. I meant to say that such an energy level would seem drastically low to what I might expect. But then, the idea that phasers operate on a very different principle from direct energy transfer might explain that, AND would mean that comparing energy values to other weapons is not a good way to compare them at all. Again, though, I still want to check those numbers when I get a chance.
The problem is one of accuracy. Your ship is moving, you need to analyse the terrain, avoid friendly ground forces, perhaps adjust for the atmosphere as well - and there's another warship trying to shoot you down as well (and if it's following you, what if it follows your example and starts hitting your troops in revenge?). If you've got human gunners then take into account stress and human error as well. You're right it's certainly easier than dropping bombs, but there are still plenty of issues to deal with.
At similar distances, a starship can target systems on another combative ship, dispite evasive maneuvering, and try to avoid other systems, so I would think that it's actually a lot easier to hit a point on a slow-moving non-evasive planet. I think it's easier than you think, but it would be foolish to assume it's an easy thing to do. Still doesn't explain why we've never seen a stun shot from orbit ever again.

And, for my one really, terribly lame moment:
The Federation became PC .
What's PC?
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Formless »

What's PC?
Politically Correct, a concept often used to sidestep Truth/Practicality in favor of not offending people with specific interests.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Batman »

Cri_Havoc wrote:
The difference between the Death Star blowing up Alderaan and a phaser not vaporising someone is that we have all the evidence at hand for the former, and very little for the latter
Yes, granted, the effects of a phaser may lack what we would expect to see in a true vaporization, but you're still making a big leap in logic (albeit a generally forgivable one) when you're looking at other examples, like the death star.
No he's not.Alderaan=obvious DET event, phaser=obviously NOT DET event. It's that simple.
It would be quite wrong to assume either lots or little energy, because we don't know how it works. By comparison, the Death Star is much easier to work with, because the principles behind blowing up a planet are fairly well known, and don't require much more than a magic power source and a really efficient laser (nothing new there, given it's sci-fi).
Actually we CAN assume little energy, thanks to no evidence of lots of energy being involved exists, and indeed a lot of the evidence that would be there if there were a lot of energy involved is curiously absent.
No, it is only by assuming the principle that the death star is using that makes the principle 'well known'.
The principle IS well know. You dump enough energy into something, it goes kablooiee.
I refer again to a nuclear bomb: you don't actually impart enormous amounts of energy into a nuke to make it explode the way it does, you use a mechanism which allows you to impart some energy, which in turn can yield much larger amounts of energy. By the same token, then, we cannot assume that the explosion of Alderaan was the result of a direct energy transfer via the superlaser,
Yes we can, because unlike nuclear warheads, planets are NOT designed to go out with a bang. Neither are they naturally volatile.
to put it in your words, "we cannot figure out the energy needed to make it happen from the visuals", just like when I see a nuclear bomb explode, the energy required to create the explosion is not the energy required to trigger the explosion (and then the energy of the explosion goes on to cause the devestation we see, but again, the devestation is not caused by the energy I impart upon the bomb itself.)
Which is completely irrelevant as Alderaan was not a nuclear weapon. It was a planet.
I agree, a phaser may quite likely work on rather different principles than direct energy transfer.
Not 'may'. Must.
But I don't like that people are willing to make the 'obvious leaps' in some cases and not in others.
We aren't. Alderaan is completely concurrant with a DET event. Phasers are totally incompatible with one.
And, for my one really, terribly lame moment:
The Federation became PC .
What's PC?
Politically correct.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Teleros »

but you're still making a big leap in logic (albeit a generally forgivable one) when you're looking at other examples, like the death star
On the contrary, you're merely employing Occam's Razor.
No, it is only by assuming the principle that the death star is using that makes the principle 'well known'. I refer again to a nuclear bomb: you don't actually impart enormous amounts of energy into a nuke to make it explode the way it does, you use a mechanism which allows you to impart some energy, which in turn can yield much larger amounts of energy. By the same token, then, we cannot assume that the explosion of Alderaan was the result of a direct energy transfer via the superlaser, to put it in your words, "we cannot figure out the energy needed to make it happen from the visuals"
There's a difference though. Let's assume we're comparing a nuke and the Death Star vaporising a planet, but don't know how the nuke works. We are however familiar with planets...

1. Why would a planet explode so violently when you fire a (for example) 1 gigaton laser at it? Sure you'd get a big explosion, and crater, but what process could possibly cause the planet to spontaneously explode like we saw with Alderaan? How would you create such a chain reaction?
2. In the mean time, the visuals support direct energy transfer being the cause. Therefore it's safe to assume to that this is why Alderaan blew up.
3. Meanwhile, we see a nuke detonate. We measure the effects of the blast and conclude it was a 10MT yield.
4. Not knowing about the trigger mechanism, we might state for example that a very large quantity of plutonium was all lumped together and went critical.

Funnily enough, the new book on the Death Star points out that the idea of the superlaser as merely a really big gun is partially wrong: it also did some funky stuff involving hyperspace to Alderaan (this may even have required more energy than simple DET though, but we'll leave that for another time). The point though is that until someone came along and stated how the Death Star's superlaser actually worked, the assumption about it being merely a brute force weapon was the best explanation we had. It was wrong as it turned out, but until someone states what the truth is it's the best we've got to go by. The same thing with the nuke - until someone comes along and explains how the trigger mechanism works, our best assumption might well be the scenario above.

Now bring in phasers and the way they make people vanish. The laws of physics pretty much require that rapid vaporisation of someone be accompanied by an explosion, depending on the rate of vaporisation and amount of energy involved, plus the materials used, atmosphere / lack of, etc etc etc. We see none of this when phasers are used on people to make them vanish - although we do see it happen to rocks, other starships and such (hence the idea on the NDF theory page that the disintegration effect is most marked on lighter elements, not the heavier ones found in rocks and starship hulls). Anyway, if the target isn't being vaporised, what is happening to it? What could plausibly cause a human body to vanish without affecting the surrounding environment? Disintegrating, although pretty unscientific, is more plausible that saying its vaporisation just because :P .
I can't look up clips from the clone wars/RotS right now, but relying on memory, blaster shots really seemed to do the same thing to a jedi that they did to anyone else? I've no doubt that Jedi can work through a lot of pain and more damage than a normal person, though, and that it takes quite a bit to bring one down, I'm just curious about their ability to 'protect themselves'.
Most of the people shot by blaster fire are armoured (for an example of someone not, remember Greedo's smoking corpse in the bar in canteena in Mos Eisley?). Most of the Jedi, unless they're wearing some very unusual energy-absorbing clothing, don't end up smoking corpses (or exploding all over the place for that matter) - so either the clone troopers firing at them turned the settings of their weapons down (huh?!) or something was protecting them.
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Re: A couple questions

Post by Kythnos »

Cri_Havoc wrote: I'll try to tread lightly here (I just did the same in a different thread, sort of.) Let me begin by saying, I DO currently believe that the Death Star imparted a tremendous amount of energy to blow up Alderaan. But I'm skeptical of how quickly people want to say 'what you see is what you get' in this and many other instances. You say that just because a person disappears, we can't assume whether it takes a lot of a little bit of energy to do so. By a similar token (an example that I used in the other thread), just because a nuclear bomb creates an enormous explosion doesn't mean you actually imparted all that energy into a fissionable material. By the same token, we can't actually assume that there isn't some 'hidden mechanism' at work which lets the Death Star blow up Alderaan without using quite so much energy. But I haven't seen any good theories to disprove it, so the Death Star I fear. :P But it just irks me when I feel that the rules are changed around sometimes between different arguments.
One of the problems you are having is the reason for the Death Star in the first place. It was to scare everyone into following the Empire, without question, because if you did not they would Destroy your planet. The Weapon HAD to work on all worlds, if it only worked on a "special type" of planet then you don't have a "Terror Weapon" to scare a galaxy. So even if you are right and there was another reason for Alderaan to blow up into an asteroid field, the Death Star still has to be a threat to every other world which take the listed power to destroy.
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