Fed Communism (split from "Stupid Connie")

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

What is your evidence for that? You say we spun the whole Commie Federation out of circumstantial evidence, but you come up with the idea that the Vulcans started it on the sole evidence that they sent a ship to earth after detecting a warp signature, and that they have been "Holding earth back" prior to the launch of Enterprise NX-01. From this you infer that they turned the Federation communist? How do either of these things lead to the Vulvan's turning the rest of the Federation communist? We don't even know what kind of government or economic system Vulcan has, let alone that they influenced others to copy it.

And regardless of who started it, we have strong evidence that it is red.

As for the other races... it still seems pretty clear that humans are dominant. The vast majority of Starfleet (the military arm) is human. A large portion of the civil government is human. The civil government and the military arm are both based on the humans' homeworld. Regardless of how much power the other species wield in theory, humans are de facto the most powerful species in the Federation.

Okay, let's start with the evidence that the Federation is communist. So far, we've heard a few examples:

No Private Property. This can be discounted, with the old chestnut, the Picard family vineyard. "But you can't prove they own it!" Burden-of-proof fallacy; as the party asserting a claim (that the Federation is communist) you must show evidence that they do not own it. Ben Sisko's father owns a restaurant; we may take the many statements indicating this as evidence, as well as they sign describing the restaurant in the possessive sense (Sisko's). Again, show evidence that Sisko's Restaurant does not belong to Sisko.

No Free Press: We have seen evidence of a free press, in ST:VI. The fact that we, as the audience, were never later shown a function which would, by any reasonable expectation, occasion the involvement of the press is circumstantial evidence, and does not demonstrate a lack of free press. When there has been occasion to show the press, the press has been shown.

No private vehicles: Again, since the stories primarily involve military personnel, the lack of in-depth civilian stores of the sort that would deptic such vehicles is circumstantial. We never see civilian characters frequently enough in any situation to see them in situations where they are using their own vehicles.

Now, those points notwithstanding, I still say that if the Federation is, in fact, communist, I suspect the Vulcans. Here's why: although I don't ordinarily draw from Enterprise for "continuity" information, it does give a glimpse into the minds of Trek's "creative" (and I use the word dubiously) talent. Enterprise, then provides this insight into the Vulcans: If I recall this bit of trivia correctly, in an episode that featured T'Pol's grandmother, her grandmother's rank was stated to be that of Commisar.

[Perinquus]

Okay, let's start with the evidence that the Federation is communist. So far, we've heard a few examples:

No Private Property. This can be discounted, with the old chestnut, the Picard family vineyard. "But you can't prove they own it!" Burden-of-proof fallacy; as the party asserting a claim (that the Federation is communist) you must show evidence that they do not own it. Ben Sisko's father owns a restaurant; we may take the many statements indicating this as evidence, as well as they sign describing the restaurant in the possessive sense (Sisko's). Again, show evidence that Sisko's Restaurant does not belong to Sisko.

This cannot be discounted. Your argument is a red herring. Private property existed even in the Soviet Union. People still owned cars, still owned land, still owned houses, still owned all their personal effects. As Mike Wong has pointed out, read the communist manifesto. Here's a quote from his "economics of Star Trek essay: "Neo-marxists are quick to point out that Marx only wanted to eliminate "exploitative" capitalist property, rather than the personal property of the "artisan and craftsman". there was always a fuzzy dividing line between personal property and "exploitative" property. In trying to abolish the one, the communists severely infringed on the other, but they did not eliminate it completely.

Picard's vinyard was a small scale operation. It apparently did not exist as a profit making enterprise, since he stated tradition, not earning a living, as his motivation for keeping it up, and there would surely be less labor intensive occupations in the 24th century. Moreover, it was a centuries-old family operation, passed down to him by his ancestors, not a venture he financed himself, or invested in.

Much of this also applies to Sisko's father's restaurant. Small businesses such as this existed in communist countries and still exist in countries like Cuba and North Korea. The presence of such businesses does nothing to refute the communist economic system of the Federation.

You are also still dodging the point that the major characteristic of communism is the absence of investment capital. Investment capital is something which does not exist the Federation, and it's absence is the sine qua non of communism.

No Free Press: We have seen evidence of a free press, in ST:VI. The fact that we, as the audience, were never later shown a function which would, by any reasonable expectation, occasion the involvement of the press is circumstantial evidence, and does not demonstrate a lack of free press. When there has been occasion to show the press, the press has been shown.

Just because we see reporters doing their jobs does not mean there is a free press. Pravda had reporters as well. This did not mean they were free to write whatever they wished, or that the paper was free to publish it. This isolated example does not constitute enough evidence to refute the masses of information indicating that the Federation is communist.

No private vehicles: Again, since the stories primarily involve military personnel, the lack of in-depth civilian stores of the sort that would deptic such vehicles is circumstantial. We never see civilian characters frequently enough in any situation to see them in situations where they are using their own vehicles.

And yet Star Trek (post TOS ST that is), with over four times as many hours of footage as Babylon 5, never manages to show - even once - things Babylon 5 depicted on a regular basis. In police work, this is what we call a clue.

Now, those points notwithstanding, I still say that if the Federation is, in fact, communist, I suspect the Vulcans. Here's why: although I don't ordinarily draw from Enterprise for "continuity" information, it does give a glimpse into the minds of Trek's "creative" (and I use the word dubiously) talent. Enterprise, then provides this insight into the Vulcans: If I recall this bit of trivia correctly, in an episode that featured T'Pol's grandmother, her grandmother's rank was stated to be that of Commisar.

So what? This is applying a human title to a non-human official. The actual Vulcan title is, in all likelihood, a word for which there is no direct English equivalent. So as a term of convenience, they slap on the nearest human equivalent, but that doesn't mean it's a close fit.

And words and titles are used in different ways. Today we have consuls, they are officials charged with looking out for the interests of U.S. citizens abroad, and work in U.S. consulates around the world. The word is derived from the head of state of the old Roman republic - also called consuls. This does not mean that our modern day consuls do even remotely the same sort of work as an ancient Roman consul, even though they wear exactly the same title.

The use of a single title in this one instance is simply not sufficient evidence on which to base such a conclusion. I also find it interesting to note the scantiness of evidence you are willing to use when it supports a position you favor, and the massive weight of evidence you are willing to discount when it supports a conclusion you appear not to like.

[Perinquus]

Just to clarify, that quote I took from Mike's essay should be:

"Neo-marxists are quick to point out that Marx only wanted to eliminate 'exploitative' capitalist property, rather than the personal property of the 'artisan and craftsman'."

I forgot to put the quotation marks at the end of the quote. The rest of that paragraph is mine, not Mike's. I still have enough of the researcher's discipline left from grad school to want to distinguish quotations from others from my own words.

[Evil Jerk]

No Free Press: We have seen evidence of a free press, in ST:VI. The fact that we, as the audience, were never later shown a function which would, by any reasonable expectation, occasion the involvement of the press is circumstantial evidence, and does not demonstrate a lack of free press. When there has been occasion to show the press, the press has been shown.

Citing the presence of a press in Generations (I don't remember any in STVI) is a red herring anyway, because that era was pre-Communist.
Furthermore it's not just a question of not seeing a free press, it's that the only press we did see post-TNG era was Jake Sisko working for the Federation News Service, obviously state run.
So, we have the conspicious absence of a free press, and the existance of a state run press. What does this tell us?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

No Free Press: We have seen evidence of a free press, in ST:VI. The fact that we, as the audience, were never later shown a function which would, by any reasonable expectation, occasion the involvement of the press is circumstantial evidence, and does not demonstrate a lack of free press. When there has been occasion to show the press, the press has been shown.

Citing the presence of a press in Generations (I don't remember any in STVI) is a red herring anyway, because that era was pre-Communist.
Furthermore it's not just a question of not seeing a free press, it's that the only press we did see post-TNG era was Jake Sisko working for the Federation News Service, obviously state run.
So, we have the conspicious absence of a free press, and the existance of a state run press. What does this tell us?

I could find a justification for a Starfleet News Service; after all, the U.S. military's various branches have something similar, I'm sure -- but a Federation News Service is deeply disturbing. Are you sure that's the actual name? If so, I may rethink my position, on this point at least.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Just to clarify, that quote I took from Mike's essay should be:

"Neo-marxists are quick to point out that Marx only wanted to eliminate 'exploitative' capitalist property, rather than the personal property of the 'artisan and craftsman'."

I forgot to put the quotation marks at the end of the quote. The rest of that paragraph is mine, not Mike's. I still have enough of the researcher's discipline left from grad school to want to distinguish quotations from others from my own words.

A fairly common practice when using quotations in any article; I've had my balls busted by a Journalism professor or two for that mistake myself.

[Ted C]

As long as folk are on the topic of a free or restricted press, I'd like to draw your attention to the "Allegiance" entry in Mike's TNG database. The Federation was able to keep a planetary-scale plague a secret.

Can you imagine the US goverment keeping a plague affecting all of Hawaii secret from the rest of the country?

[Patrick Degan]

Another piece of evidence to consider in regards to the question of press freedom, or lack thereof, within the Federation is the suppression of information on the collapse of the Turkana IV colony into complete social chaos and the failure or refusal of the Federation government to do anything to restore order there.

[Kamakazie Sith]

As long as folk are on the topic of a free or restricted press, I'd like to draw your attention to the "Allegiance" entry in Mike's TNG database. The Federation was able to keep a planetary-scale plague a secret.

Can you imagine the US goverment keeping a plague affecting all of Hawaii secret from the rest of the country?

Was that world a UFP world? Or was Starfleet going around the prime directive and helping out a developing species?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Another piece of evidence to consider in regards to the question of press freedom, or lack thereof, within the Federation is the suppression of information on the collapse of the Turkana IV colony into complete social chaos and the failure or refusal of the Federation government to do anything to restore order there.

What episode was this? And was that a UFP world?

[Ted C]

The Federation was able to keep a planetary-scale plague a secret.

Was that world a UFP world? Or was Starfleet going around the prime directive and helping out a developing species?

It hardly matters. Apparently the information would have significant effect on Federation citizens, since the government decided to declare it a secret. There is apparently no free press capable of discovering this plague outbreak and publicizing it against the government's will.

[Ted C]

Evidence that the Federation has a communist economy...

TNG, "The Last Outpost"

DATA: The Ferengi are... well, the best description may be "traders."
PICARD: What kind of "traders"?
DATA: A more accurate comparison modern scholars have drawn from Earth history cites the ocean-going "Yankee Traders" of eighteenth and nineteenth century America, sir.
RIKER: From the history of my forebears? "Yankee Traders?"
DATA (nods): Who sail, in this case the galaxy, in search of mercantile and territorial opportunity.
RIKER: And are those scholars saying the Ferengi may not be too different from us?
DATA: Hardly sir. I believe the analogy refers to the worst quality of capitalists. The ferengi are believed to conduct their affairs of commerce on the ancient principle Caveat Emptor - "Let the buyer beware", sir.

The implication, here, is that Federation citizens do not "sail the galaxy in search of mercantile and territorial opportunity". They explore and they seek peaceful relations with other cultures, but they are not attempting to expand their territory, nor are they seeking advantageous trade opportunities.

TNG, "The Last Outpost"

LETEK: And there is even more! We can prove the hu-mans are destroyers of legal commerce ... also that they selfishly withhold vital technology from backward worlds...
MORDOC: And necessary defensive weapons, too. We Ferengi are now challenge this hu-man madness...

Riker and Data do not deny the Ferengi charges. IIRC, they admit that the Ferengi charges are accurate, they simply don't think they have done anything wrong. Whether you think they've done anything wrong or not, the implication is that "legal commerce" within Federation territory is restricted.

TNG, "The Neutral Zone"

RALPH: I demand to know the cost of anything you do before the procedure is approved.
BEVERLY: I have no idea what you're talking about.

The Federation has operated under a socialized medical system for so long that the very idea of paying for medical treatment is foreign to Dr. Crusher. This is not direct evidence of a communist system, but it is consistent with one.

Mike's database didn't have a direct quote, but when Ralph asked for access to a communication system so he could check on his investments, Picard was as befuddled by the idea of a portfolio as Beverly was by the idea of paying for medical treatment. Lack of an investment market is evidence of a communist economy.

TNG, "The Neutral Zone"

RALPH: And then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money -- my office is gone -- what will I do? How will I live?
PICARD: This is the twenty-fourth century. Those material needs no longer exist.

Apparently, money isn't necessary for a Federation citizen. Ralph and Picard are talking about the very concept of wealth here, not physical currency. Removing the need to accumulate money in order to live is a basic communist goal.

TNG, "Manhunt"

WORF: Captain... we're being hailed by a small transport vessel just coming into range.
TROI: Oh, my God!
PICARD: What is the problem?
TROI: What can she be doing here?
...
TRANSPORT PILOT: Starship Enterprise, come in!
RIKER: We have you on our viewer, Pilot.
TRANSPORT PILOT: Enterprise... I have a passenger -- a V.I.P. passenger -- who I'm ordered to --
MRS. TROI: Let me talk to them, Pilot. I'm much more articulate.
TROI: Mother!
DATA: Captain, we are now receiving Starfleet orders granting a Lwaxana....
MRS. TROI: Lwaxana Troi, daughter of the Fifth House, Holder of the Sacred Chalice of Riix, heir to the Holy Rings of Betazed.
DATA: ... full ambassadorial status, sir.

The Federation Ambassador from Betazed doesn't have her own personal transport or even a dedicated state transport. Owning a transport can't be all that expensive (Quark operates one off the proceeds of his bar, after all), so this is evidence that interstellar vehicles are tightly restricted in the Federation.

TNG, "Survivors"

TROI: Captain, there are eleven thousand inhabitants in the colony. At this range I should be feeling something.... I'm not.
...
DATA: Sensors are scanning ninety degrees of longitude as we orbit. I am detecting no artificial structures, no vegetation, no bodies of water...
WORF: Lifeform readings are negative.
TROI: Could the colonists have escaped?
DATA: That is unlikely. Rana Four possessed no interstellar spacecraft.

A colony with a population of 11,000 has no interstellar vehicles. It's difficult to imagine why this colony wouldn't even have one interstellar shuttle unless ownership of such vehicles is strictly limited in the Federation.

TNG, "The Price"

RIKER: Our proposal includes technology that will enhance your food production, your mining capabilities, and space travel. We offer scholars and scientists to investigate the wormhole's potential. And perhaps most critical of all, we offer Starfleet. The security of this passage must never be compromised. We offer protection of the wormhole in perpetuity.

What's noticeably absent from Riker's proposal is an offer of wealth. A capitalist offer would probably include economic incentives.

TNG, "The High Ground"

PICARD VO: Captain's log, Stardate 43510.7. The Enterprise has put in at Rutia Four to deliver medical supplies following an outbreak of violent protests. Although non-aligned, the planet has enjoyed a long trading relationship with the Federation.

The Federation does engage in trade, but that's not terribly surprising. The Soviet Union also engaged in trade to obtain resources and manufactured goods, but the terms under which they conducted trade were much different from those of a capitalist economy like the US. In the US, private corporations trade for profit; in the USSR, the government traded to obtain resources.

TNG, "The High Ground"

ALEXANA: Perhaps if we found ourselves in possession of some of that advanced Federation weaponry of yours it would shift the balance of power back to our favor.
PICARD: That we cannot do for you.
ALEXANA: No, of course not.

As Mike notes, the Ferengi apparently can't supply the weapons that the Rutians want, either, even though they would clearly be willing to supply them (see quotes from "The Last Outpost").

TNG, "Allegiance"

PICARD: I found it unlikely that a first-year cadet would know of the Enterprise's visit to Mintaka Three... so I tested you. Starfleet has classified the Cor Caroli Five plague "secret." No cadet would have knowledge of the incident.

The ability to keep this plague outbreak secret from the general population is clearly evidence that the Federation is able and willing to restrict interplanetary communication.

TNG, "Brothers"

SOONG: And what's so important about the past? People needed money, they got sick. Why tie yourself to that?

Yet another claim that people no longer need money; such a claim would be ludicrous in a capitalist economy.

TNG, "Family"

(looking out over the vineyards)
LOUIS: One man's idea of paradise.
PICARD: Two men. Robert's. And my father's.
LOUIS: Never did I know anyone less interested in grapes than you, Jean-Luc.
PICARD: No, I was interested, Louis. And I was proud that my family helped to preserve the traditions. But I did not feel bound by those traditions as they seemed to be.

Maintaining the vinyard is described as a matter of tradition, not business. As Mike notes, Picard never speaks to his brother about sales or profits.

TNG, "Time's Arrow Part 2"

TROI: Poverty was eliminated a long time ago. And a lot of things disappeared with it: hopelessness, despair, cruelty, war ...

If Troi is to be believed, poverty isn't just rare in the Federation: it's gone. This is a very unrealistic situation for a capitalist economy, but a fundamental goal of a communist economy.

TNG, "Firstborn"

QUARK: How could I forget the only man ever to win triple down dabo at one of my tables?
RIKER: And how could I forget that you didn't have enough latinum to cover my winnings?
QUARK: I thought I explained that my brother had misplaced the key to the safe. Besides, those vouchers I gave you are every bit as good as latinum.
RIKER: Not exactly. You can spend latinum just about anywhere. Those vouchers are only good at your bar.

Despite claims that Federation citizens are no longer motivated by money, Riker would still have preferred to have Quark pay his gambling winnings in something more liquid than bar vouchers. Clearly there are things that a Federation citizen can buy with the right "currency", but these are presumably luxury items. After all, Federation citizens don't need money, right?

TNG, "Firstborn"

RIKER: Where's this... Corvallen now? I have orders to acquire some magnesite.
YRIDIAN: He is gone ... Where? I don't know.
RIKER: Wouldn't you be interested in selling me the ore you're carrying?
YRIDIAN: No, I have a buyer.
RIKER: You haven't heard my offer.
RIKER: Half a gram of Anjoran bio-mimetic gel.
YRIDIAN: Done.

Riker arranges to buy ore from an Yridian, but he doesn't offer Federation currency. Instead he barters with some kind of valuable organic material in his possession.

Despite Alyeska's protests to the contrary, ST:TNG is full of indications that the Federation has a communist economy. Further analysis of DS9 and Voyager will have to wait for better on-line resources.

[TheDarkling]

We do have some humans in cargos ships crash on two occassions - Turkana 5, these Men dont appear to be SF when we see them yet they are hauling cargo.

Also we have a crash landing on Angel One by a crew thats stated to not be SF (not bound by the Prime directive) thus these traders must have had their own vessel which they operated (since I would think if the ship belonged to the Feds they would make them sign a contract specifying compliance with the prime directive).

We also know of the Zakdorn operated Federation (not SF but Federation) salvage depo was in orbit of a planet which Riker beamed down to in his uniform and the Piano player asked for cash - these seemed for all intents and purposes to be a Fed world (why outside contact your storage depo) although I dont believe it was confirmed.

Also its been a while since I saw that episode - quote on New Sydney being non Federation?

We also know that Vulcan builds there own design of vessel still - indication that the SF design isnt common to all races.

As for the Feds being run by humans - Earth is the place where the bulk of the government resides however do all US cities have the same laws as DC?.

We also know that the Bajourans use cash and have a religion - would this have changed overnight (the religion sure as hell wouldnt have) if the Feds had let them sign up, did Quark express a worry that if the Bajourans joined the Feds he would have his bar ceased from him - or that he would have any change in his business whatsoever?

Therefore all the statements of DS9 being an odd case seem to fall into doubt.

My own personal take would be that the humans are communist (although in an actual good functioning way not an Obey the State way) but that other Fed worlds get to choose there setup (Earth due to it producing the vast amount of governmental and military "might" of the federation probably gets subsidised by the other worlds - thus leading to Earth being the paradise we always hear it is).

As a side note the DS9 humans still believe in an afterlife and God but no organised religion is shown - they probably became Deist (I get this from a discussion O'Brien and Bashir had about what the afterlife is like not to mention the constant references to God even 200 years after people gave up believing in him).

[Ted C]

We do have some humans in cargos ships crash on two occassions - Turkana 5, these Men dont appear to be SF when we see them yet they are hauling cargo.

Also we have a crash landing on Angel One by a crew thats stated to not be SF (not bound by the Prime directive) thus these traders must have had their own vessel which they operated (since I would think if the ship belonged to the Feds they would make them sign a contract specifying compliance with the prime directive).

In both cases, we don't really know whether the ships are government property or not. All we can really conclude is that they aren't part of Starfleet; they might still be part of a Federation "merchant marine". It would be particularly helpful to know what kind of cargo they carried. Most cargos mentioned in Star Trek are raw materials or utilitarian items. I don't recall hearing much about luxury goods.

You do have an interesting point in observing that the crews of civilian transports are not subject to the Prime Directive. However, we have seen plenty of other evidence that trade with non-aligned worlds is subject to Federation restrictions (since the Rutians apparently aren't getting access to Federation weapons, even from civilian sources).

We also know of the Zakdorn operated Federation (not SF but Federation) salvage depo was in orbit of a planet which Riker beamed down to in his uniform and the Piano player asked for cash - these seemed for all intents and purposes to be a Fed world (why outside contact your storage depo) although I dont believe it was confirmed.

The depot and its contents would certainly be Federation state property, but I don't think the world that Riker subsequently visited was even in the same system. Riker went there because he had traced a connection between the smuggler ship captain and the bar pianist.

Also its been a while since I saw that episode - quote on New Sydney being non Federation?

I can't answer that one; I haven't seen the episode at all.

We also know that Vulcan builds there own design of vessel still - indication that the SF design isnt common to all races.

Such an observation sheds no real light on the Federation economy.

As for the Feds being run by humans - Earth is the place where the bulk of the government resides however do all US cities have the same laws as DC?.

No, but they're all subject to the Federal laws passed in DC. That's not really the issue, though. The real issue is that the major power broker in the Federation seems to be Starfleet, and Starfleet is dominated by Humans.

We also know that the Bajourans use cash and have a religion - would this have changed overnight (the religion sure as hell wouldnt have) if the Feds had let them sign up, did Quark express a worry that if the Bajourans joined the Feds he would have his bar ceased from him - or that he would have any change in his business whatsoever?

Bajoran admittance to the Federation might have depended on the adoption of certain economic policies, just as economic aid from the US and World Bank are dependent upon adopting prescribed policies today. Were the terms of such admittance spelled out?

My own personal take would be that the humans are communist (although in an actual good functioning way not an Obey the State way) but that other Fed worlds get to choose there setup (Earth due to it producing the vast amount of governmental and military "might" of the federation probably gets subsidised by the other worlds - thus leading to Earth being the paradise we always hear it is).

We have seen that there is an admittance process involved in obtaining Federation membership (see "The Hunted"). Various political, social, and economic requirements may be involved in obtaining membership.

[TheDarkling]

I agree there are criteria for admittance into the Federation but the fact is Quark wasnt running around in a panic becaus ethe state would cease his bar in just over an hour - this seems to indicate things wuld carry on much as the had done since the Federation took control of the station - this either indicates that local law would have held sway over the station (thus the Bajorans kept their money based economy) of that the Federation allows businesses (for profit) on its installations - either way shows that that profit making business can exist within the Federation.

I will go and check about it being a different planet (I remember seeing a few Zakdorn there but yopu are right it may have been a different planet).

[TheDarkling]

On the note about personal transports - didnt Datas "father" have his own ship - he stated he never liked being somewhere without an escape route (and he used it once the crystalline entity turned up) but I cant remember the specifics - anyone care to fill me in?

[Ted C]

I agree there are criteria for admittance into the Federation but the fact is Quark wasnt running around in a panic becaus ethe state would cease his bar in just over an hour - this seems to indicate things wuld carry on much as the had done since the Federation took control of the station - this either indicates that local law would have held sway over the station (thus the Bajorans kept their money based economy) of that the Federation allows businesses (for profit) on its installations - either way shows that that profit making business can exist within the Federation.

Quark's business probably wouldn't have been affected much either way. After all, Federation customers find ways to pay him already. They come up with latinum somewhere, and he doesn't have to worry about how. Quark isn't a Federation citizen, so he only has to make sure he doesn't get caught with contraband. We've seen that various traders (like Kiva Fajo and assorted other Ferengi) manage to make profitable trades in Federation space. As I noted, scarce raw materials seem to be the most common commodity.

Assuming that they do have a communist economy, then they probably have a thriving black market. That would be a likely source of latinum, and military officers would be among the best placed to obtain items that they could sell on the black market. They might also be able to legally trade some unrestricted items with non-aligned merchants and get latinum in return; a station like DS9 would be a likely place for such trades to occur. Either way, Federation personnel at DS9 wouldn't have much trouble coming up with latinum to pay non-aligned merchants.

[TheDarkling]

GEORDI (cont'd)
It was decommissioned years ago
and sent to the surplus depot at
Qualor Two. As far as anyone
knows it's still there.


The later

RIKER (V.O.)
First Officer's log, stardate
45245.8. The Enterprise remains
at Qualor Two as we continue to
investigate the theft of a surplus
Vulcan ship and materiel.

11 INT. QUALOR TWO PIANO BAR


Although its not canon the script holds some info on other cash for services exchanges going on on Qualor 2.

The bar itself is dark and private, a place where quiet
liaisons can be safely arranged. It's a slow night. A
couple of alien hookers wait for trade to pick up...

[Ted C]

On the note about personal transports - didnt Datas "father" have his own ship - he stated he never liked being somewhere without an escape route (and he used it once the crystalline entity turned up) but I cant remember the specifics - anyone care to fill me in?

Dr. Soong apparently did have access to some kind of personal transport. Scientists tend to be influential people in a communist society, and scientists also tend to be influential people in the Federation. It's possible that a transport was a payoff for some technology that Soong developed for the Federation. It's also possible that he had obtained the shuttle illegally; he was, after all, hiding out in "Brothers", and he apparently had no moral compunctions about ordering Data to seize control of whatever starship he was on to get him "home".

[Guest]

The UFP does exhibit many different communist attributes. For example, in a particular DS9 episode Jake wanted to buy his father a Willie Mays baseball card. The problem was that Jake didn't have any money. Jake even told Nog that basically humans don't have money. He had to rely on Nog to provide the latinum for the card.

However, on a different occasion in TNG. Dr. Crusher and the Enterprise went to her home colony because her grandmother died. Dr. Crusher was the heir to her grandmother's house and property. The UFP did not tax her or take away the property. In fact, in one line Dr. Crusher specifically stated that she owned the property. Considering that private property is anathema to a communist state, I find it unlucky that all of the UFP is communist. Parts of the Federation, like Earth, may be communist; however, there are colonies and other territories which probably aren't.

[Guest]

Actually, I find it unlikely that the Federation is completely communist. I said unlucky, which would convey a meaning that I did not intend. I am an ardent capitalist.

[Kamakazie Sith]

The UFP does exhibit many different communist attributes. For example, in a particular DS9 episode Jake wanted to buy his father a Willie Mays baseball card. The problem was that Jake didn't have any money. Jake even told Nog that basically humans don't have money. He had to rely on Nog to provide the latinum for the card.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread it seems as though humans alone don't use money.

However, on a different occasion in TNG. Dr. Crusher and the Enterprise went to her home colony because her grandmother died. Dr. Crusher was the heir to her grandmother's house and property. The UFP did not tax her or take away the property. In fact, in one line Dr. Crusher specifically stated that she owned the property. Considering that private property is anathema to a communist state, I find it unlucky that all of the UFP is communist. Parts of the Federation, like Earth, may be communist; however, there are colonies and other territories which probably aren't.

Interesting.

[Patrick Degan]

Another piece of evidence to consider in regards to the question of press freedom, or lack thereof, within the Federation is the suppression of information on the collapse of the Turkana IV colony into complete social chaos and the failure or refusal of the Federation government to do anything to restore order there.

What episode was this? And was that a UFP world?

TNG season four episode "Legacy". Planet Turkana IV; Federation colony world which collapsed into societal chaos following the downfall of the planetary government. Birthplace of sisters Natasha and Ishara Yar.

[Master of Ossus]

Another piece of evidence to consider in regards to the question of press freedom, or lack thereof, within the Federation is the suppression of information on the collapse of the Turkana IV colony into complete social chaos and the failure or refusal of the Federation government to do anything to restore order there.

I actually don't agree with a lack of UFP press reporting. Remember that Jake was only censored by the Dominion in what he could have published, and that Bashir (a low-ranking officer with NO strategic planning responsibilities) knew about the casualties reported by a Federation fleet just one day after it checked in. Had the UFP restricted press, I don't see how he possibly could have known that.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Another piece of evidence to consider in regards to the question of press freedom, or lack thereof, within the Federation is the suppression of information on the collapse of the Turkana IV colony into complete social chaos and the failure or refusal of the Federation government to do anything to restore order there.

What episode was this? And was that a UFP world?

TNG season four episode "Legacy". Planet Turkana IV; Federation colony world which collapsed into societal chaos following the downfall of the planetary government. Birthplace of sisters Natasha and Ishara Yar.

I don't recall the episode clearly, but isn't it possible that this information was known, and that the Federation made an offer of assistance but was refused by the warring factions?